What Would it Take for Death Attack to be Useful?

[White_Drake]

As the title. I'm sort of curious because I like assassins, they just don't seem very effective. Also, could you make it both useful and balanced without arbitrary restrictions (such as X times per day)?

[LTwerewolf]

Death attack can be useful, just not in combat. We once had a player play an assassin and his job was go remove certain nobles that tried to move against the guild. He'd sneak in, study them a bit, then death attack. He had a rather high int modifier to shore up the save, along with ability focus. Ended up making a boatload of money.

The problem with it in combat is that by the fourth turn, combat is usually over.

[BowStreetRunner]

There are a few issues that the assassin needs to overcome in order to use the death attack effectively:


The assassin needs 3 rounds of uninterrupted study before even making the attack. So stealth or subterfuge is generally required.
The assassin has to make a successful sneak attack that deals damage. So anything that defeats sneak attacks also defeats death attacks.
The target cannot be immune to death effects. There are a number of ways to get this ability, even for a target vulnerable to sneak attacks.
The DC of the attack needs to be higher than the target's Fort save. High Fort saves are not that difficult to come by - not to mention effects like Mind Over Body that allow a concentration check instead.
And just in case all of this isn't difficult enough for you, the assassin's death attack ability only works in melee. So you have to get up close.

Keep in mind, the assassin's spell list actually includes help for a number of these issues - like spells that allow a ranged death attack or reducing the number of rounds study needed. But any discussion of how useful death attack is should keep in mind all of these considerations.

[Answerer]

I like this homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8317151) for it.

[Darth Stabber]

There is an assassin in the party I am currently running, and the player keeps wanting death attack to be really good in regular combat, but it keeps disappointing. He's made death attacks twice, and both times it was against high fortitude dudes (though one was knocked to -2 by the damage of the attack). The short answer is that it isn't really an important feature of assassin, it is effectively trading 2 skill point/lvl for some spells, and this is not a bad PRC without death attack, and death attack has value in non-standard encounters. The place to use it is not in the heart of a raging melee, but rather quietly in the shadows before combat starts, maybe even preventing the combat in the first place.

[SowZ]

There are a few issues that the assassin needs to overcome in order to use the death attack effectively:


The assassin needs 3 rounds of uninterrupted study before even making the attack. So stealth or subterfuge is generally required.
The assassin has to make a successful sneak attack that deals damage. So anything that defeats sneak attacks also defeats death attacks.
The target cannot be immune to death effects. There are a number of ways to get this ability, even for a target vulnerable to sneak attacks.
The DC of the attack needs to be higher than the target's Fort save. High Fort saves are not that difficult to come by - not to mention effects like Mind Over Body that allow a concentration check instead.
And just in case all of this isn't difficult enough for you, the assassin's death attack ability only works in melee. So you have to get up close.

Keep in mind, the assassin's spell list actually includes help for a number of these issues - like spells that allow a ranged death attack or reducing the number of rounds study needed. But any discussion of how useful death attack is should keep in mind all of these considerations.

You can pull this trick out with 7 levels of assassin assuming a high int. (Base 17+2 Racial+3 levels+6 Enhanc.+2 Scarlet Ioun Stone is reasonable.) Make sure you have the bracers of murder. Start by casting returning weapon on your assassins dagger and pass without trace. Spider climb if the terrain calls for it. Cast invisibility. Once getting within a few rounds of your target, cast greater invisiblity.

Study your target. There is an item that drops your study time to two rounds. Cast Sniper's eye. Close to fifty feet. Cast true strike. Throw the dagger. You have 5 more rounds to dispatch anyone else/retrieve the body until you have to cast invisiblity and leave. All the while never having to get into melee range. If you have taken ability focus, the Fort save is 32. Enough to one shot a Pit Fiend, a Marilith, and Mature Adult Red Dragon more often than not.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I have toyed with the idea of letting the Assassin burn spell slots to reduce the time spent studying the target. He may burn a level 3 spell slot (or any combination of slots that sum 3) and make a Death attack the same round or if he has the time to study, he can spend the normal 3 rounds to save slots.

I would also take out the [Death] tag, I don't see how it is a supernatural effect, for me an Assassin should be able to kill with pure skill (an Ex abiliy); but of course they can use magic to help themselves, after all moat assassins are also highly pragmatic and thus willing to use any tool at their disposal.

[Diarmuid]

You can pull this trick out with 7 levels of assassin assuming a high int. (Base 17+2 Racial+3 levels+6 Enhanc.+2 Scarlet Ioun Stone is reasonable.) Make sure you have the bracers of murder. Start by casting returning weapon on your assassins dagger and pass without trace. Spider climb if the terrain calls for it. Cast invisibility. Once getting within a few rounds of your target, cast greater invisiblity.

Study your target. There is an item that drops your study time to two rounds. Cast Sniper's eye. Close to fifty feet. Cast true strike. Throw the dagger. You have 5 more rounds to dispatch anyone else/retrieve the body until you have to cast invisiblity and leave. All the while never having to get into melee range. If you have taken ability focus, the Fort save is 32. Enough to one shot a Pit Fiend, a Marilith, and Mature Adult Red Dragon more often than not.

While that is a neat plan...it's certainly not any easier to pull off that trying to study for 3 rounds in the middle of a combat. The main question is making Death Attack combat viable not just making it regular viable =).

[SowZ]

While that is a neat plan...it's certainly not any easier to pull off that trying to study for 3 rounds in the middle of a combat. The main question is making Death Attack combat viable not just making it regular viable =).

Oh, sure, this is just kinda about being a super assassin. The best way to make it combat viable, I think, is to cast Sniper's Eye and have the Ranger Variant that allows all your ranged attacks to be Sneak Attacks. Then use gear to reduce the study time. Honestly, it still isn't good because the time you spent studying could have been spent doing, like, 6 ranged sneak attacks would be enough to kill most things at that level, anyway.

[BowStreetRunner]

Thematically, I honestly don't think Death Attack should be all that combat viable. It's one thing to try to do a quick kill when the enemy isn't expecting it - take him out while he has his guard down, so to speak. It is something entirely different to attempt in while he is fighting back.

I would be content if you could reliably start combat by having your party wait to launch the ambush until the assassin takes down the BBEG. After the first kill, the assassin fades back into the background and lets his party members do their things.

[Flickerdart]

(Base 17+2 Racial+3 levels+6 Enhanc.+2 Scarlet Ioun Stone is reasonable.)
Scarlet and Blue Sphere Ioun Stones provide an enhancement bonus that does not stack with a +6 item.

[Person_Man]

Another problem is that everything that offers Death Attack (with the exception of the Binder, who doesn't get access to it until very late in his progression) generally sucks. A sometimes useful ability built into a Tier 4 or lower chassis is a recipe for medicrity or failure.

There's a variety of homebrew classes and PrC that fix this. Flickerdart does great work, which Answerer already linked to. You may also wish to look at my Tier 3 Ninja homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186505). It has a variety of interesting Ninjutsu abilities to choose from (including Death Attack at level 7), and Dex based Save DCs.

[Gwendol]

I play a bard in a team with an assassin: fascinate the target using bardic music is a good setup for DA.

[Curmudgeon]

... and have the Ranger Variant that allows all your ranged attacks to be Sneak Attacks.
What 'Ranger Variant' is this?

[Dusk Eclipse]

What 'Ranger Variant' is this?

I'm guessing Distracting attacl from PHBII (IIRC), I don't remember the exact wording; but I think it makes an enemy hit by you to be considered flanked by your allies and IIRC the glosary in the PHB states that you are considered your own ally thus enabling ranged sneak attacks (assuming you are within 30 or 60 feet).

[Curmudgeon]

I'm guessing Distracting attacl from PHBII (IIRC), I don't remember the exact wording; but I think it makes an enemy hit by you to be considered flanked by your allies and IIRC the glosary in the PHB states that you are considered your own ally thus enabling ranged sneak attacks (assuming you are within 30 or 60 feet).
Yes, you're your own ally. That's still not enough to make you another character.
flank

To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that she is flanking. A pair of Rangers with Distracting Attack could fire at the same target alternately and flank at range with each other. But you can never flank an enemy by yourself.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, you're your own ally. That's still not enough to make you another character. A pair of Rangers with Distracting Attack could fire at the same target alternately and flank at range with each other. But you can never flank an enemy by yourself.

Ah I see then, oh well in anycase that gives me an idea for a nasty encounter a pair of rangers with distracting attack and some melee rogues to capitalize on that easy flanking.

[JaronK]

To make Death Attack useful, you'd have to give it some extra utility.

1st, make those study rounds helpful. For example, maybe you can death attack as a full round action anyway, but if you do it that way it's just a free critical hit that does double sneak attack damage. If you study your foe for 1 round, you deal the current death attack thing, or you learn what their lowest save modifier is. If you study your foe for a second round, you can do a special attack targeting the save or your choice (perhaps if you target reflex saves, their dex is dropped to 0 for assassin level rounds, but then heals 1 point per round after that, and if you target will saves you do the paralyzing attack), or you learn their immunities. If you then attack on the third round, you do any of the death attacks from the previous rounds, but their save is reduced by half your assassin level against both the death attack and any poison you applied to your blade when you delivered it, and you can even death attack people who are immune to sneak attack.

Or something.

A second option would be to play with poison a bit. Give assassins some solid abilities at summoning poisons that only they can use, and maybe give death attack the ability (when you study them) to lower the enemy's saves against poison and maybe even kill off poison immunity. Maybe the DC of your poisons goes up by 1 per round you study the target (max your assassin level) or something.

JaronK

[SowZ]

Scarlet and Blue Sphere Ioun Stones provide an enhancement bonus that does not stack with a +6 item.

Absolutely. I knew that, really. I feel stupid. Hehe. An untyped slotless +2 bonus for 8k would be the greatest thing in the world, though. I just ballparked a high stat for level 13 and slapped on a few things I new boosted Int mindlessly to reach that number.

[docnessuno]

The main problem i see is that a "save or die" is a weak ability for something that requires 3 rounds of preparation, unless the DC is obnoxiously high (but that would rise other balance problems). I toyed with the idea of adding a serious drawback even on a successful save, for example inflicting 1 point of Con damage for each d6 of sneak attack / sudden strike the character would roll (in addition to the normal damage of the attack).

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I don't think it really needs to be improved, it's not like you're losing sneak attack dice relative to a rogue by taking Assassin Levels (which would make you worse at stealth kills than a equivelent base class). Assassin could use some love, like maybe 6+ int mod skill points. Maybe stack with rogue levels for gaining rogue special abilities, including getting one at Assassin 10 with non rogue entry.

[SowZ]

I don't think it really needs to be improved, it's not like you're losing sneak attack dice relative to a rogue by taking Assassin Levels (which would make you worse at stealth kills than a equivelent base class). Assassin could use some love, like maybe 6+ int mod skill points. Maybe stack with rogue levels for gaining rogue special abilities, including getting one at Assassin 10 with non rogue entry.

I agree that it should get 6+ int mod skill points, but the SA dice should stack with rogue not grant a new progression, (you shouldn't get an extra SA by entering Assassin after an odd number of levels,) and it probably shouldn't get more than one rogue special ability. It gets spells instead.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My favorite thing to do with Death Attack is tossing it in the garbage in exchange for waiving the alignment and special prerequisites of pretty much any class that offers it.

Also, use this Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d), get Mind Cripple, disable most opponents in a single full attack, and forget Death Attack ever existed. Something like Spellthief 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer 9 and use Death Urge and Psychic Crush.

[toapat]

Ah I see then, oh well in anycase that gives me an idea for a nasty encounter a pair of rangers with distracting attack and some melee rogues to capitalize on that easy flanking.

Hes actually wrong.

The reason Distracting attack works on yourself is because it:

A: Applies the flanked condition, something normally irrelevant (Flanked normally A: Has no Definition, and B: Has no benefits, except it does with distracting attack)
B: Specifically allows whoever next attacks the creature to benefit from flanked, regardless of range or rules.
C: Is Curmudgeon saying that. He doesnt acknowledge Specific trumps General (the number one most important printed rule), or that anything not republished in 3.5 is legal from 3.0

[docnessuno]

Hes actually wrong.

The reason Distracting attack works on yourself is because it:

A: Applies the flanked condition, something normally irrelevant (Flanked normally A: Has no Definition, and B: Has no benefits, except it does with distracting attack)
B: Specifically allows whoever next attacks the creature to benefit from flanked, regardless of range or rules.
C: Is Curmudgeon saying that. He doesnt acknowledge Specific trumps General (the number one most important printed rule), or that anything not republished in 3.5 is legal from 3.0

Toapat you have already argued this point numerous times, and refused to change your mind despite the evidence.
Considering you are pretty much the only one in the community giving this interpretation (or, at the very lest, part of a strict minority), could you at least avoid using black/white statements like "you are wrong"?
We already know you follow RaTT to the letter, but the rest of the world mostly doesn't.

[toapat]

Toapat you have already argued this point numerous times, and refused to change your mind despite the evidence.
Considering you are pretty much the only one in the community giving this interpretation (or, at the very lest, part of a strict minority), could you at least avoid using black/white statements like "you are wrong"?
We already know you follow RaTT to the letter, but the rest of the world mostly doesn't.

and that post looks copy and pasted.

the ability, as written, will not work with death attack, it works with multiple ranged sneak attacks in a round because it does not define there being restrictions on the flanked condition, only that the next attack is treated as flanking. It Implies in the example (and Examples have no effect on RAW or RAI, because they are so useless) that the ability is not supposed to work with ranged, but it does not specifically modify the definition of ally.

it also overrides, due to bad wording, the requirement of multiple participation in the flanking.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

you shouldn't get an extra SA by entering Assassin after an odd number of levels

I'd consider either "no more than character level/2 SA from class features" or "all classes that grant +1d6 SA/2 levels stack for the purposes of progression rather then following their class' table" a reasonable houserule, but I've personally never felt the need to curtail SA dipping, even with people making SA Thug fighter and Rokugan Ninja Dips and an Assassin being a touch better at SA then a straight rogue doesn't seem out of line.


My favorite thing to do with Death Attack is tossing it in the garbage in exchange for waiving the alignment and special prerequisites of pretty much any class that offers it.

An intriguing ACF indeed.