Good non-D&D systems for D&D-style play?

[Morty]

I know that the title of the thread is rather bizzare and oxymoronic, but bear with me.
The situation is like this: I have an idea for a low level rather classical 3e D&D adventure... but don't really feel like struggling with the numerous things that I think are wrong with this game. So I'm thinking about some alternatives that would let me run the same kind of adventure with mechanics that I find more palatable. I'm familiar with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and I've heard that Mutants & Masterminds can also work with some tweaking. Are there any other such games? Universal systems definetly count.

[Alejandro]

I have several suggestions, but they are d20 based games and thus not that different. Maybe Savage Worlds?

[Pilo]

The Barbarians of Lemuria
Dragon Age
Basic
Talislanta
Runequest
Rolemaster

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Old School Hack runs pretty close to straightforward gritty D&D, as would a retroclone proper such as Swords & Wizardry or OSRIC. All of these are also free.

You could try Dungeon World as well, the PDF's pretty cheap.

[Yora]

I really like Myth & Magic. It's basically AD&D 2nd Edition, but in a highly cleaned up form and with attack bonuses and saving throws like in d20 games. Clearly my favorite RPG out there.

I also support the mention of Dragon Age. It's maybe even more simple with less classes, spells, and monsters. I've seen some people say that it is lacking variety after a couple of games, but those might have been 3.5e players, which is a game of extreme customization and highly detailed tactical combat, so that wouldn't say much about how it compares to other "less-than-rules-heavy" games.

[Morty]

I have several suggestions, but they are d20 based games and thus not that different. Maybe Savage Worlds?

I've heard some things about Savage Worlds. It's a universal system, right?


Old School Hack runs pretty close to straightforward gritty D&D, as would a retroclone proper such as Swords & Wizardry or OSRIC. All of these are also free.

You could try Dungeon World as well, the PDF's pretty cheap.


I really like Myth & Magic. It's basically AD&D 2nd Edition, but in a highly cleaned up form and with attack bonuses and saving throws like in d20 games. Clearly my favorite RPG out there.

I'd rather not use old D&D hacks or clones. I find pre-3e D&D very restrictive, unless said clone removes things like race/class restrictions.


I also support the mention of Dragon Age. It's maybe even more simple with less classes, spells, and monsters. I've seen some people say that it is lacking variety after a couple of games, but those might have been 3.5e players, which is a game of extreme customization and highly detailed tactical combat, so that wouldn't say much about how it compares to other "less-than-rules-heavy" games.

I don't think this adventure will work in the Dragon Age setting, which brings me to a rather important detail I forgot to mention - this adventure would take place in the Forgotten Realms or a similar world.

[hamlet]

I really like Myth & Magic. It's basically AD&D 2nd Edition, but in a highly cleaned up form and with attack bonuses and saving throws like in d20 games. Clearly my favorite RPG out there.


You've really become excited about that, haven't you? (not being mean or rude, just pointing out) Even though I've funded both kickstarters and will probably fund the third for the bestiary (assuming the jerks ever send out the books), I can't honestly admit to liking the game. I mean, it's not bad, it just rubs me the wrong way in some ways. It "fixes" things that I never quite thoguht were broken to begin with.


To the OP: My question is, "what are the problems you have with D&D3.x?". What issues need addressing?

[Yora]

It fixes things that for a very long time kept me from playing 2nd Edition.
And it does not have any restrictions on classes and races.

Dragon Age doesn't actually have much ties with the setting. Humans, elves, and dwarves are simply humans, elves, and dwarves, and warriors, rogues, and mages are just warriors, rogues, and mages.

[Morty]

To the OP: My question is, "what are the problems you have with D&D3.x?". What issues need addressing?

I'd rather it didn't became a thread about the things I don't like about 3e D&D, but here it goes, in no particular order: imbalance, the nonsensical way hitpoints and combat work, restrictions on character concepts (which is tied to imbalance).



And it does not have any restrictions on classes and races.

Now that's interesting...


Dragon Age doesn't actually have much ties with the setting. Humans, elves, and dwarves are simply humans, elves, and dwarves, and warriors, rogues, and mages are just warriors, rogues, and mages.

I'm not terribly fond of the Warrior/Rogue/Mage trinity, but I suppose I'll take the Dragon Age RPG into consideration.

[Yora]

Now that's interesting...
There are rules to give 10% more or less XP to characters with very high or low scores in the main abilities for their class, but those are marked as entirely optional rules. Given the XP needed to gain new levels, it would mostly likely just mean getting every level up one session earlier or later at the most without any meaningful impact in the long run.

Actually, there are restrictions on race and class combinations:
- Elves, dwarves, and half-orcs can not be bards.
- Half-orcs can only become paladins if they give up their rage ability.
- Only Humans, elves, and half-elves can be rangers.
- Gnomes and dwarves can only become wizards if they give up their bonus to saving throws against spells.

Since there are no mechanical reasons at all, the restrictions can easily be ignored without any impact on anything else.

[hamlet]

Well, first, "class race restrictions" are so easily "fixed" that it's always puzzled me why people call it a problem.

And anyway, before this turns into another one of those threads . . .

I'm going to go ahead and recommend Arduin. Any edition, but the Compleat (yes, that's spelled right) Arduin is probably the "best" with the new Arduin Eternal probably a better fit for the modern gamer.

HP are set at first level and do not increase and represent actual physical damage. No such thing as class and race restrictions.

Arduin Eternal is so hugely open and so ripe for innovation and creation that folks "nerdgasm" over the possibilities all the time.

My only gripe about it is the rules are . . . just a touch complicated when you get down to it. And you MUST be creative and essentially build everything yourself, otherwise the game goes nowhere.

[Morty]

Huh. Do you have a link to where I could find out more about the system? I've never heard of it before and a brief Google search turned up nothing.

[vartan]

As far as Mutants and Masterminds goes they do have a supplement for fantasy settings called Warriors and Warlocks.

[hamlet]

Huh. Do you have a link to where I could find out more about the system? I've never heard of it before and a brief Google search turned up nothing.

Here: http://www.empcho.bizhosting.com/

And Here: http://www.arduin.com/index.html

Though the Forums are defunct, they have lots of good info in them if you can get there.

It also has the benefit of having the absolute best world setting ever in a system neutral package if you're willing to foot the $70 bill for the book.

[LibraryOgre]

Castles and Crusades. Featless d20. No class/race restrictions. Very simple, on a 2e power curve.

[Greylond]

HackMaster is the game you want. And in fact the intro game for the system, HackMaster Basic is FREE.

For an intro/information about the style/theme of the game check out these two links

HackMaster Player's Handbook Introduction:
http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/introduction.html

HackMaster Player's Handbook Forward:
http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/foreword.html

And:
HackMaster Basic Download link(PDF);
http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/hackmaster_basic_free_.pdf

[Morty]

Here: http://www.empcho.bizhosting.com/

And Here: http://www.arduin.com/index.html

Though the Forums are defunct, they have lots of good info in them if you can get there.

It also has the benefit of having the absolute best world setting ever in a system neutral package if you're willing to foot the $70 bill for the book.

Interesting. 70$ is a bit too much of an investment right now, but I'll keep this system in mind.


Castles and Crusades. Featless d20. No class/race restrictions. Very simple, on a 2e power curve.

Like I said, I'd rather not use any version or clone of D&D.


HackMaster is the game you want. And in fact the intro game for the system, HackMaster Basic is FREE.

For an intro/information about the style/theme of the game check out these two links

HackMaster Player's Handbook Introduction:
http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/introduction.html

HackMaster Player's Handbook Forward:
http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/foreword.html

And:
HackMaster Basic Download link(PDF);
http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/hackmaster_basic_free_.pdf

It seems a little too similar to AD&D, but worth considering, I suppose.

[Opperhapsen]

Warhammer fantasy RPG?
It's a bit grittier, but it does dungeon crawling and murderhoboing pretty well.

Lots of rolling for your character though, so whatever vision you had for a character will basically be shattered instantly.

[Edge of Dreams]

Runequest 6th edition.

It's a d100 system (your skill is a %, and you try to roll under it, harder/easier tasks multiply your skill by a modifier). Combat is gritty and realistic. You have hit points for each part of your body (arms, legs, chest, head, abdomen), which start off less than 10 in each location and do not increase as you gain experience (unless you use magic). Armor acts as damage reduction. You defend yourself by rolling to parry, but that costs actions to do, so an out-numbered foe will often be in trouble.

If you succeed on an attack and your opponent fails to parry, you do damage AND get to apply a special effect such as bleed, stun, impale, trip, disarm, or even force a Willpower check to see if they surrender.

Magic is readily available, but magic items are rare. Magic is also pretty balanced, and it is up to the GM to decide how easy it is to recover spent Mana. Any character can pick up Folk Magic without needing to be a magic specialist. Those are small, handy spells like one to sharpen your sword and give it bonus damage, prestidigitation-like effects, minor healing, etc. There's also Theism (clerics/priests), Sorcery, Mysticism (think monks, inward-focused magic that gives self-buffs), and Animism (summoning and manipulating spirits). Any of the magic systems can be tweaked or left out of your setting if you choose.

Characters are built using a three-part process of Culture, Career, and Hobbies. Your culture and career each give you a list of skills and a number of points to spend on them. The hobby phase then gives you another pool of points to spend on any skills you care to.

Custom combat styles are a fun part of the game. A character may only know how to use a few weapons, but they get one special combat advantage based on the way they were trained in their backstory. For example, one of my players is a former sailor who uses "Drunken Sailor Style" - he is proficient with small shields, daggers, curved blades, and cannons, and he gets a bonus to Endurance checks versus pain and wounds so long as he's drunk.

There's no equivalent of the Feat system, and it's a basic rule of the game that "Two spells with the same general purpose never stack" (e.g. Bladesharp which increases weapon damage and Flameblade, which lights your sword on fire, don't stack with each other because they both serve the purpose of dealing more damage in combat). Thus, the number of combinations and rules interactions between various special effects is minimized, and character builds are much much simpler to figure out.

[Winter_Wolf]

I would have said Tri-Stat Big Eyes Small Mouth Dungeon, but BESM is in so many ways worse than D&D in terms of trying to achieve balance. Also BESM 2e is long out of print and I don't know if you could even find the Dungeon supplement. Plus the strongly anime vibe which turns off a lot of people.

But if you can get past all that, you've only got to deal with three stats and as long as you can manage the points, you can customize your character any way you want within the GM's permission. It's so ridiculously easy to break that you really do need a "gentlemen's agreement" between all players and GM to make it work.

There's Warrior Rogue Mage, but it wasn't what I was looking for so I never really spent much time with it. It might be too D&D for your wants anyway.

[Morty]

Warhammer fantasy RPG?
It's a bit grittier, but it does dungeon crawling and murderhoboing pretty well.

Lots of rolling for your character though, so whatever vision you had for a character will basically be shattered instantly.

I do like WFRP, but it's supposed to be a fairly heroic adventure, and running this sort of game with WFRP tends to result in evisceration.


Runequest 6th edition.


This looks like a solid option. How easy is it to adapt this system to different setting? Like I said, If I ever run it, I'd like to do so in Forgotten Realms.




There's Warrior Rogue Mage, but it wasn't what I was looking for so I never really spent much time with it. It might be too D&D for your wants anyway.

I know of Warrior Rogue Mage but you're right in that it's a bit too D&D-ish for my purposes.
All suggestions are appreciated, of course. The more systems I have to choose from the better. :smallsmile:

[Edge of Dreams]

This looks like a solid option. How easy is it to adapt this system to different setting? Like I said, If I ever run it, I'd like to do so in Forgotten Realms.

Older editions of Runequest were pretty tied to the Glorantha setting, but the writers of the 6th edition explicitly went out of their way to make the game setting-agnostic. There's actually a couple areas (such as magic point recovery, combat styles, schools of magic, which spells are available) where the book directly says "Here's several different ways the rules could work, pick whichever combination is most appropriate for your game and setting." So, yeah, very very adaptable. Hell, there was even a Star Wars conversion that was on the site for a while before they got freaked out about copyright and took it down.

That said, if you end up running RQ, I recommend looking into the Glorantha setting. It's got some interesting factors that set it apart from most Tolkien-inspired fantasy settings. For example, Elves are plant-people, while Dwarves are made of metal and believe the "world machine" is broken and they need to fix it. There's also an iconic race of duck-people.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I'm quite fond of BRP, which you may know as the system behind Call of Cthulhu. They've got this for traditional D&D type settings (http://basicroleplaying.com/basic-roleplaying/classic-fantasy-return-dawn-roleplaying-1645/) and updates to that setting are supposed to be released "soon". It's heavily based on Runequest.

[hamlet]

I'm quite fond of BRP, which you may know as the system behind Call of Cthulhu. They've got this for traditional D&D type settings (http://basicroleplaying.com/basic-roleplaying/classic-fantasy-return-dawn-roleplaying-1645/) and updates to that setting are supposed to be released "soon". It's heavily based on Runequest.

BRP is good, but saying "it's heavily based on Runequest" is really not quite true. They struck upon similar solutions to similar problems, but as I understand it, they're entirely independent of each other.

[Kiero]

Warhammer fantasy RPG?
It's a bit grittier, but it does dungeon crawling and murderhoboing pretty well.

Lots of rolling for your character though, so whatever vision you had for a character will basically be shattered instantly.

There are many ways around this. We avoided the biggest one of those by letting people choose their starting career.

[Hopeless]

Has anyone suggested Mongoose Publishing's Legend rpg?

Its pretty much similar to Runequest I've used it to run Pathfinder scenarios of the cuff, just how much do you want to port over the Forgotten Realms because the magic system might not be as great as RQ 6th edition but I think they're still offering the pdf of the core rules for $1 I believe.

Might be able to just pick up the Monsters of Legend and Arms of Legend to cover most of what might be needed (they're planning Monster of Legend 2 & 3 for later this year), the character generation the same but your players pick culture and profession and have an extra 250 skill points to spend before a brief family status tables for some background if they want.

They'd start off with limited funds but thats up to the dm to decide how much and its up to you to decide how much high fantasy you actually want.

I prefer low magic but have recently run a game where common magic was freely used and even adapted a version of animism to explain a character gaining a summoning spell and talisman to cast it outside the source of their magic.

No gnomes by the way... not sure if thats a big deal but thought I better point that out!

[kyoryu]

You didn't comment on Dungeon World.

Also, I'm curious what you mean by "D&D style play". There's a ton of variation in what people mean by that.

[dbm]

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is an option, but in my opinion you are playing against the strengths of GURPS if you are focussing on down-playing the lethality of the system - the default is more along WFRP lines than D&D lines. I'm currently looking at HERO and in particular Fantasy HERO has lots of support for heroic fantasy (natch) but it does require a lot of GM pre-work to design how magic etc will work in the game.

Another option, and peer of AD&D, is Rolemaster, which is being put back into production by Iron Crown. If that is too crunchy for you then you could try HARP which is an evolution of Rolemaster, or even Novus which is a lighter game written independently by one of the HARP authors.

Some more options:
Burning Wheel is a more story game, but intended for epic fantasy role playing. Very non-traditional in play style.
Desolation is a post-magical-apocalypse game.
Reign uses the One Roll Engine and has a reasonable following.
Eathdawn was written as a response to D&D and has built in justifications for the dungeon raiding tendencies of most PCs.
Shadow, Sword & Spell is another pulp fantasy game with a more modern mechanic driving it

Yes, I like collecting fantasy systems. Why do you ask? :smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

Has anyone suggested Mongoose Publishing's Legend rpg?

Its pretty much similar to Runequest I've used it to run Pathfinder scenarios of the cuff, just how much do you want to port over the Forgotten Realms because the magic system might not be as great as RQ 6th edition but I think they're still offering the pdf of the core rules for $1 I believe.

Might be able to just pick up the Monsters of Legend and Arms of Legend to cover most of what might be needed (they're planning Monster of Legend 2 & 3 for later this year), the character generation the same but your players pick culture and profession and have an extra 250 skill points to spend before a brief family status tables for some background if they want.

They'd start off with limited funds but thats up to the dm to decide how much and its up to you to decide how much high fantasy you actually want.

I prefer low magic but have recently run a game where common magic was freely used and even adapted a version of animism to explain a character gaining a summoning spell and talisman to cast it outside the source of their magic.

No gnomes by the way... not sure if thats a big deal but thought I better point that out!

Hm. That seems like a reasonable option as well. As for how much of Forgotten Realms I'd port over... I'm not much of a stickler about it. Geography, cultures, races and all that jazz would need to be there and the character concepts typical for FR should be possible. I don't really need Vancian spellcasting in it.


You didn't comment on Dungeon World.

Also, I'm curious what you mean by "D&D style play". There's a ton of variation in what people mean by that.

That's true, I missed it. I don't know much about it, so I'll have to research it.
As for what I mean by D&D style play - fairly heroic, action-packed, not terribly realistic, with black-and-white morality. The PCs discover the villains' plot - specifically, the plans of a Zhentarim lieutenant to seize a cache of powerful, ancient magic weapons - and try to thwart it.


GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is an option, but in my opinion you are playing against the strengths of GURPS if you are focussing on down-playing the lethality of the system - the default is more along WFRP lines than D&D lines. I'm currently looking at HERO and in particular Fantasy HERO has lots of support for heroic fantasy (natch) but it does require a lot of GM pre-work to design how magic etc will work in the game.

I'm familiar with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and I'm considering it as one of my options. I'll look into HERO as well.


Another option, and peer of AD&D, is Rolemaster, which is being put back into production by Iron Crown. If that is too crunchy for you then you could try HARP which is an evolution of Rolemaster, or even Novus which is a lighter game written independently by one of the HARP authors.

Some more options:
Burning Wheel is a more story game, but intended for epic fantasy role playing. Very non-traditional in play style.
Desolation is a post-magical-apocalypse game.
Reign uses the One Roll Engine and has a reasonable following.
Eathdawn was written as a response to D&D and has built in justifications for the dungeon raiding tendencies of most PCs.
Shadow, Sword & Spell is another pulp fantasy game with a more modern mechanic driving it

Yes, I like collecting fantasy systems. Why do you ask? :smallbiggrin:

That's a lot of suggestions. None of them sound like they fit my purposes here, but I might as well keep them in mind for the future.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Burning Wheel is a more story game, but intended for epic fantasy role playing. Very non-traditional in play style.

Actually, I find Burning Wheel to be a very traditional game (with some non-traditional bits thrown in), but YMMV. (I see it as a bit of a love letter to old school gaming, with Tolkien homage thrown in.)

[Bogardan_Mage]

BRP is good, but saying "it's heavily based on Runequest" is really not quite true. They struck upon similar solutions to similar problems, but as I understand it, they're entirely independent of each other.
I've never played Runequest, so I'm only basing this on what I've heard. It was my understanding that the fantasy modules drew mostly from that game, and I know for example that the Basic Creatures monograph is notorious for not even bothering to translate some rules to the general BRP system. As I say, though, I don't know what plain Runequest is like, I just know that it was one of the sources used to create the generic system.

[obryn]

I have a lot of suggestions actually! Here we go in ascending order of "distance from being recognizably D&D". :)

First, I will echo Savage Worlds (http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Worlds-Deluxe-Explorers-S2P10016/dp/1937013200). It has a number of perks.

(1) The Savage Worlds Deluxe paperback is $10. And it has a basic toolkit built-in for fantasy. (There's a fantasy supplement which is only reasonable to find in PDF form, but the regular SWD book does fine. It has enough to get you started. The fantasy supplement is mostly of note for the bestiary.)

(2) It's easy to learn and fast to play, though balancing everything can get tricky.

(3) It's a blast and plays nothing like D&D of any edition, but it's still in the "trad games" wheelhouse. It uses a lot of entertaining mechanics, like playing cards for initiative and frequent "bennies" for re-rolls.

Alternately, have you looked into Dungeon World (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/108028/Dungeon-World)? It's amazingly cool, designed more or less as a modern, narrative take on oldschool D&D. Also $10 in PDF format. I am less experienced with it, but a lot of people whose opinion I respect speak highly of it (for what nothing that's worth). My read-through impressed me pretty greatly. It's made for people who love the idea of D&D, but want different rules for it. So it might be pretty great. Basically, it's "Think of all the cool stuff you wanted your character to do when you started playing D&D. Make that front and center."

Finally, if you're looking for something way, way different, you can run a fantasy game very easily using FATE Core (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/fate-core). This is way off on the narrative end of the spectrum, but again, it has a lot of support for fantasy. It's downloadable for a mere $1 pledge, and a magic system was released on the kickstarter page today!

Hope this helps!

-O

[Frozen_Feet]

I'll throw my two cents in for Lamentations of the Flame Princess. (http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/)

[kyoryu]

Actually, I find Burning Wheel to be a very traditional game (with some non-traditional bits thrown in), but YMMV. (I see it as a bit of a love letter to old school gaming, with Tolkien homage thrown in.)

In themes, yeah. I dont' see it working mechanically for a murder hobo game.

[Yora]

I'll throw my two cents in for Lamentations of the Flame Princess. (http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/)
But isn't it D&D with the name painted over for copyright reasons? OD&D Pathfinder, so to speak?

[obryn]

But isn't it D&D with the name painted over for copyright reasons? OD&D Pathfinder, so to speak?
No, it's not a retro-clone like OSRIC or Dark Dungeons or S&W. It's a new, oldschool-style game mostly descended from OD&D, with some interesting ideas, but which tries too hard, imo. But if the OP has problems with AD&D, LotFP is not the right direction. Not even a bit. :smallsmile:

-O

[hamlet]

But isn't it D&D with the name painted over for copyright reasons? OD&D Pathfinder, so to speak?

No, and I honestly wouldn't say it's good for D&D style adventuring either. It's closer to Cthulhu style adventuring. Different thematic stresses.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I will also quasi-sarcastically suggest Fiasco as a game which encourages D&D-style play. :smallbiggrin: (It's actually not far off the mark...)

[Sylvre Phire]

My vote is for RQ6; it's a tried and true system and the current edition cleans up things significantly from the original RQ2 (which it is meant to resemble); if you want gnomes bad enough in the setting, you can get the BRP Classic Fantasy PDF (http://catalog.chaosium.com/product_info.php?cPath=70&products_id=5045) and easily port them over. Other than that Legend (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/97239/Legend) might fit your bill as well.

Pax et bonum,

Dale

[GolemsVoice]

Can't comment on the other systems, but I always recommend Savage Worlds. It's indeed easy to learn, and you can create a character in a few easily understood steps. The powerlevel is lower than D&D, even at higher levels, but people can still be pretty big heroes in the vain of traditional high fantasy dragonslayers and rescuers of princesses.

It also has edges (feats) which I really like, but that's a personal thing. However, few are as game-breaking as some of D&D's feats, although there are some that are more or less mandatory for a melee fighter, for example. :smallsmile:

[Morty]

Looks like Savage Worlds and Runequest may be my best bets at this point, although some other systems that have been suggested would also work. Thanks for the help, everyone. If I ever run this game, I'll pick one of them, probably after consulting with my players.

[Hopeless]

Looks like Savage Worlds and Runequest may be my best bets at this point, although some other systems that have been suggested would also work. Thanks for the help, everyone. If I ever run this game, I'll pick one of them, probably after consulting with my players.

Please let us know what happens especially what they went for it will be interesting to hear how you handle the cthulhu side!:smallwink:

[obryn]

You will never regret getting the Savage Worlds Deluxe book.

Well, at least I didn't. It's a great system.

-O

[Hopeless]

You will never regret getting the Savage Worlds Deluxe book.
Well, at least I didn't. It's a great system.
-O

A few years ago I bought the explorer's edition is the deluxe that much better?

[obryn]

A few years ago I bought the explorer's edition is the deluxe that much better?
It's largely unchanged! A bit of errata and some updates like new Chase rules.

It's all on Pinnacle's site for free, if you're curious!

-O