making tracking a non-feat part of survival

[Darth Stabber]

So I am going over things, working on a single list of house rules, and adding a few to fix things I find kind silly/stupid/insane, and I came across track. Track is terrible feat, usually only useful as a tax for prcs, or as a railroading tool. So I thought why not roll it's effects into survival by default?

Changes:

-track's current effects can be used by anyone trained in survival.

-any time you would be given track as a bonus feat, you instead gain skill focus(survival).

-Any time track is a prerequisite, it is replaced by 4ranks in survival.

Does this seem reasonable? Is there any glaring broken things that this enables? Is there any good reason not to do this, other than inertia.

[Winds]

It seems reasonable to me.

In any case, I find it a bit ridiculous that a character could have 20 ranks of survival but not be able to track above 'hey look, a muddy footprint' just because they didn't take the feat.

[Slipperychicken]

Sounds like a fine/harmless houserule to me. There are a lot of feats and skill tricks which really should have been written as normal combat maneuvers, or just added to the skills themselves. Things like climbing on big creatures' backs, spreading rumors, or picking people up and throwing them.

[awa]

personally since track is so much a rangers thing i might give them some additional bonus to track above and beyond the +3 to survival in regards to tracking.

[nedz]

Track is an iconic Ranger class feature, which others can pick up as a feat.

It can be used pro-actively and is no more of a rail-roading tool than scrying or Gather Information.

I think that your idea is reasonable, but.

Many are the feats which should be hand waved.
Are you going to give all of these away for free too ?

[awa]

track is pretty bad though because unlike say alertness or toughness tracking is something high survival types should just be able to do.

[Darth Stabber]

Many are the feats which should be hand waved.
Are you going to give all of these away for free too ?

I may end up handwaving a great many things. I might have spun off more than PF by the time i'm done. But I am going through fixing things one problem at a time. This one seemed onerous, but there might be a compelling reason.

New ranger ability
master tracker
-rangers gain skill focus(survival) as a bonus feat. In addition a ranger may add his intelligence modifier (if positive) to any survival check to follow tracks.
-replaces the track bonus feat.

[awa]

its good it lets every one track while still making rangers the tracking class.

Personally i would also give something to creatures/ people with scent becuase they are the other ones who lose out when track becomes common place.

[Darth Stabber]

its good it lets every one track while still making rangers the tracking class.

Personally i would also give something to creatures/ people with scent becuase they are the other ones who lose out when track becomes common place.

Being able to find things by scent and sight should mean either bonus or lower DC since you have more info to go on than a purely visual tracker.

[Crake]

I may end up handwaving a great many things. I might have spun off more than PF by the time i'm done. But I am going through fixing things one problem at a time. This one seemed onerous, but there might be a compelling reason.

New ranger ability
master tracker
-rangers gain skill focus(survival) as a bonus feat. In addition a ranger may add his intelligence modifier (if positive) to any survival check to follow tracks.
-replaces the track bonus feat.

just to be that guy: it would normally be worded as "A ranger adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) to survival checks made to follow tracks."

[Phelix-Mu]

New ranger ability
master tracker
-rangers gain skill focus(survival) as a bonus feat. In addition a ranger may add his intelligence modifier (if positive) to any survival check to follow tracks.
-replaces the track bonus feat.

Perhaps also consider moving Swift Tracker to an earlier level. I think you also need to replace Track on the list of Scout bonus feat, but you could probably just make it Skill Focus(Survival), as suggested.

I totally agree about a decent outdoorsman being able to track just fine. On the other hand, druids will now be better than rangers at tracking. Perhaps move Swift Tracker to first level? It's not a game breaking benefit.

[Stormageddon]

Pathfinder already did this. Check it out.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/survival

In Pathfinder "Tracking" is not a feat but a ranger class feature that only a ranger can get. Allows them to add 1/2 ranger level to when tracking.

For PrC replacing track with 4 or 5 survival skill point sound good to me.

[Phelix-Mu]

In Pathfinder "Tracking" is not a feat but a ranger class feature that only a ranger can get. Allows them to add 1/2 ranger level to when tracking.

But that's pretty much not what we wanted. Specifically, even normal, trained people should be able to track (a hunter, for instance). It totally does not make sense for it only to be available to rangers; even the Track feat is available to experts and stuff, which is entirely appropriate.

Maybe make it like Trapfinding? As in, only a ranger could track tracks above a certain DC, but otherwise the hunter could track deer and such. Getting a little complex, though.

[awa]

You misunderstand this is the ranger track ability from the pf srd

"Track (Ex)

A ranger adds half his level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow or identify tracks."

so basically every one can follow tracks rangers are just the best at it

[Stormageddon]

But that's pretty much not what we wanted. Specifically, even normal, trained people should be able to track (a hunter, for instance). It totally does not make sense for it only to be available to rangers; even the Track feat is available to experts and stuff, which is entirely appropriate.

Maybe make it like Trapfinding? As in, only a ranger could track tracks above a certain DC, but otherwise the hunter could track deer and such. Getting a little complex, though.

Oh yes see the link. The Pathfinder does allow anyone to track with the survival skill; just that rangers are the best at it.

^Ninjad***

[Phelix-Mu]

Then ignore everything I said and color me stupid besides.

However, back to Darth's suggestion, adding Int mod makes sure that even low level rangers have an option to be better than druids, who will otherwise own everyone ever at Survival checks. Cept maybe the straight ranger, that +10 at 20th will go some way to evening things out. Certainly adding Int mod is more attractive for the ranger dip, particularly for some kind of multiclass/prc build that needs Int.

[nedz]

Do Rangers usually have an Int bonus ?
I mean they need Str, Con, Wis and Dex.
Cha is useful for Wild Empathy and Animal Handling — which is usually dumped, I know.
Int is useful for skill points, sure, and now tracking.

This fix makes them more MAD than a monk.

[White_Drake]

You could also make it a skill trick. I first heard the idea for using skill specializations not really good enough for class features or feats, such as track or trapfinding, somewhere on these forums, and it seems like a really good idea to me.

[Phelix-Mu]

Do Rangers usually have an Int bonus ?
I mean they need Str, Con, Wis and Dex.
Cha is useful for Wild Empathy and Animal Handling — which is usually dumped, I know.
Int is useful for skill points, sure, and now tracking.

This fix makes them more MAD than a monk.

Sadly, we are out of sensible modifiers to add (Cha makes zero sense, and is also MAD; adding a physical stat mod also not making sense). I would suggest adding Wis-mod to Survival check again, but this feels unorthodox. But I guess we are kind of making up new rules.

I agree with the MAD sentiment, but tracking is not usually the nitty-gritty of class mechanics and balance, so it hardly is terrible if the bonus isn't huge. Add the option of raising Int to get more from the skill. Wisdom twice doesn't seem unbalanced, though.

Darth?

[GreenETC]

I personally think it would work best with some sort of extra roll function, where they get to make 2 rolls and use the best every time they make a Survival check for Tracking. Means everyone is about the same at Tracking, but Rangers have a much lower chance of screwing up, since it is their thing after all.

[Darth Stabber]

Sadly, we are out of sensible modifiers to add (Cha makes zero sense, and is also MAD; adding a physical stat mod also not making sense). I would suggest adding Wis-mod to Survival check again, but this feels unorthodox. But I guess we are kind of making up new rules.

I agree with the MAD sentiment, but tracking is not usually the nitty-gritty of class mechanics and balance, so it hardly is terrible if the bonus isn't huge. Add the option of raising Int to get more from the skill. Wisdom twice doesn't seem unbalanced, though.

Darth?

Honestly, I rarely have a base wisdom much higher than 10 with a ranger on a point buy (assuming no ACFs that improve spellcasting), and then I'll use a periapt to enable spell casting. Ranger is fairly MAD, but given that ranger is a skillmonkeyish class, I am going to favor int. I can do a lot with skills, where as I really don't need to be using spells with save DCs on my ranger, and it's not going to be high enough either way to garner much in the way of bonus spells. Int also makes sense as it would represent applying knowledge to tracking in addition to perception, and with the free skill focus, it really doesn't hurt if he isn't getting the int bonus. I could add 1/2 ranger level instead (adding ranger level seems too high), but given how front loaded the normal ranger class (and that causes it to be a decent dip class), it seems to be more reasonable to give the bonus all at once.