9/9/9/9 caster v1.2

[searlefm]

Hello one and all after last time when you lot destroyed my idea by pointing out the misreading of mine
i went back and remade it today so let me show you a new epically optimized caster build that is unrivaled this side of templates and flaws and anything with pun in the name.

The Build
Race Illumian (Complete arcane) starting Sigil (Krau) [Racial].
1st level Wizard Feat: Improved Sigil (Krau) [Racial] (any arcane spell).
2nd level Cleric.
3rd level Wu Jen Feat: Improved Sigil (Krau) [Racial] (any divine spell) and one bonus metamagic feat.
4th level Druid.
5th level Mystic Theurge.
6th level Mystic Theurge Feat: Alternate Spell Source (Dragon #325) (so you can use you total spell pool for all your spells).
Illumian Words (Su) [Racial] (this is granted for free when you take your second level in any one class, this build will delay it and unfortunately but I recommend taking ether Aeshkrau: for Str or Uurkrau: for Dex to replace all other casting skill of all your classes) .
7th level Mystic Theurge (Requirements
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.).
8th level Mystic Theurge.
9th level Mystic Theurge Skill Focus (Knowledge [religion] (last required feat).
10th level Mystic Theurge.
11th level Divine Oracle (Requirements
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks
Feats: Skill Focus (Knowledge [religion])
Spells: Able to cast at least 2 divination spells.),
(although it wastes 1/7 of your feats for this class that gives some good bonuses that can help any caster vs other spell casters and combat classes and has a full d6 HD that is an improvement compared to half the levels so far).
12th level Divine Oracle Feat for player decision.
13th level Divine Oracle.
14th level Divine Oracle.
15th level Divine Oracle Feat for player decision.
16th level Divine Oracle.
17th level Divine Oracle.
18th level Divine Oracle Feat for player decision.
19th level Divine Oracle.
20th level Divine Oracle.

this gives access to 9/9/9/9 at level 20 (each one equivalently 17)
this is the most efficient character build for multi classing casting I think exists to date with out use of flaws, template, items or traits and only requires you to spend 4 feats to achieve,
the Divine Oracle may be swapped out for any other prestige class you wish for
although I personally recommend using it,
Orange Ioun Stone can be used for a boost to spell power if you desire
and I strongly recommend 'Uurkrau' and weapon finesse if you wish to participate in melee at all.

this class set up with out any bonuses spells or reservoir gives you
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
20 18+9 18+9 18+9 18+9 16+9 16+9 12+1 6+1 4+1
spells per day
and dozens more known to you.

if anyone can see a flaw in this please don't hold back as ill just find a way to remove it.
and anyone that can think of ways to improve this please tell me as of-course I'll be interested.

and my challenge to the community is to mack a 9/9/9/9/9 caster this side of epic,
if its even possible.

Enjoy

[Morph Bark]

And... how is this supposed to get quadruple-9 casting? :smallconfused:

[Andreaz]

Aesh and Uur do not change your spellcasting stat. You still need the originals to calculate save dcs and availability...the only switch is in the amount of bonus spells.

[LTwerewolf]

If you want to change spellcasting stat you need to use the feat lost traditions. Keep in mind this feat is almost always considered munchkinery.

[searlefm]

And... how is this supposed to get quadruple-9 casting? :smallconfused:

there is 16 levels of prestige classes all with +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class,
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
so each caster level will be at 1(+17 to spells known and spells per day)
as i only chose casters that get there 9th level spells at level 17 for this build

[Morph Bark]

So Divine Oracle really isn't able to be traded out as you said in the OP.

One little problem though: the PrCs only advance one arcane and one divine spellcasting class at a time.

[searlefm]

oh:smalleek: then the Mystic Theurge is worthless for what I'm doing then.

but the divine oracle gives +1 level of existing spellcasting class
''Spells per Day/Spells Known: A divine oracle continues advancing in spellcasting ability as well as gaining the abilities of her new class. Thus, when a new divine oracle level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, wild shape ability, and so on). This essentially means that she adds the level of divine oracle to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day accordingly''.

that mean the oracle is perfect at what i want but that still gives me a
17/17/11/11
that is quite a bit weaker than i originally wanted so ill have to find a second
PrCs with +1 level of existing spellcasting class


Edit 1:if you replace the Mystic Theurge with a Geomancer(same level of entry requirements) you'll get the same style level up as the divine oracle. and how it's written means you can still get a 17/17/17/17 true casting level god this link is useful when finding caster PrCs
http://dnd.freeminded.org/tables/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf

[Alleran]

I'm very tired, but just to make a note, the Divine Oracle does not increase all spellcasting levels. It only increases one spellcasting class per level.

[Morph Bark]

Also, Geomancer only advances one class, despite requiring both arcane and divine casting, iirc.

This is why PrCs have the very specific wording of using the singular when it comes to advancing spellcasting, rather than saying they advance "whatever spellcasting classes she belonged to before she added the prestige class".

Otherwise it would've been incredibly easy to get quadruple nines indeed. Heck, even hextuple nines.

[Larkas]

I already posted this link in your previous thread. I will do so again. Take a look: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246321

[searlefm]

Heck, even hextuple nines.

How?

unless you have classes that get there 9th spells at level 15 instead of 17 i dont see how that even possible.
and is if dose only give to one level then do yon know of any that give to 3
as i can only do this with use of Sigil to cheat entry requirements

also i had assumed that +1 level of existing spellcasting class adds to all unless it states other wise. as the heartwarder's (FP p196) has Text in the text states that it only adds to one of you preexisting classes and re reading instead of skimming the Geomancer and i see my mistake there but i have seen others ones that do not specify that it only adds to one in the text yes its still put as +1 level of existing class.
i guess its just wotc being wotc and doing there wording randomly.

[Andreaz]

The default is one. All classes that advance more than one at once are very clear about that. See the ultimate magus, eldritch theurge, arcane hierophant and their ilk.

[Gandariel]

i guess its just wotcPLAYERS being wotc PLAYERS and doing there wording randomly.misinterpreting stuff to get what they want.

Seriously.

I don't mean to sound offensive or anything, i'm sorry if i did. Anyway the point is, most PrCs advance one only casting class. Some (Mystic theurge for example) advance two.


PS: On the hextuple nines thing, if Mystic theurge &co worked as you think, i'm pretty sure you could get a ridiculous amount of spells (Fast progression classes help, like Ur Priest, Blighter or Sublime Chord)

[GreenSerpent]

but the divine oracle gives +1 level of existing spellcasting class

''Spells per Day/Spells Known: A divine oracle continues advancing in spellcasting ability as well as gaining the abilities of her new class. Thus, when a new divine oracle level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, wild shape ability, and so on). This essentially means that she adds the level of divine oracle to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day accordingly''.

Important part is bolded. You only gain the benefits in one CLASS. Note it's singular, not plural. So a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1 casts as a 4th level Wizard and a 4th level Cleric, a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Divine Oracle 1 casts as a 4th level Wizard (assuming Wizard is the class they selected to progress) and a 3rd level Cleric.

[searlefm]

Seriously.

I don't mean to sound offensive or anything, i'm sorry if i did. Anyway the point is, most PrCs advance one only casting class. Some (Mystic theurge for example) advance two.


PS: On the hextuple nines thing, if Mystic theurge &co worked as you think, i'm pretty sure you could get a ridiculous amount of spells (Fast progression classes help, like Ur Priest, Blighter or Sublime Chord)

yes because wotc is infallible and never make mistakes they give broken examples miss worded feats, class ability's and regularly give at least one downright wrong example in each book look at the sample Malcovker in the complete scoundrel on pages 51-52

to cast spell they need Wis equal to 10+spell level
but the example includes one casting 5 level spells with a 6th level one prepared and ready to go.
i see you point of
''i guess its just wotcPLAYERS being wotc PLAYERS and doing there wording randomly.misinterpreting stuff to get what they want.''
how it is imposable to get mislead in anyway they have huge archives of FAQ's because they make these mistakes so regularly.

Edit 1: GreenSerpent some of the books with classes give examples of add int to all previous casters wile other don't that both have the same line +1 level of existing spellcasting class and can mean ether depending on witch member of there there staff wrote it

[GreenSerpent]

GreenSerpent some of the books with classes give examples of add int to all previous casters wile other don't that both have the same line +1 level of existing spellcasting class and can mean ether depending on witch member of there there staff wrote it

Please provide proof of "add it to all previous casters". Book and page reference please.

[Nettlekid]

yes because wotc is infallible and never make mistakes they give broken examples miss worded feats, class ability's and regularly give at least one downright wrong example in each book look at the sample Malcovker in the complete scoundrel on pages 51-52 to cast spell they need Wis equal to 10+spell level
but the example includes one casting 5 level spells with a 6th level one prepared and ready to go.

That's not exactly a mistake, or misworded or anything to that effect. It's true that such a cleric couldn't cast those spells, but they could certainly prepare them. If they had an ally to cast Owl's Wisdom on them, that's all they would need. The difference between that and thinking that "When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously" (emphasis added) is pretty extreme, since it's explicitly stated. It's true that WotC has made errors in writing and ambiguous typos (the Swordsage's 6x6 at first level skill points is still a point of contention in my group) but the progression of multiple class abilities is not one of them.


i see you point of ''i guess its just wotcPLAYERS being wotc PLAYERS and doing there wording randomly.misinterpreting stuff to get what they want.''
how it is imposable to get mislead in anyway they have huge archives of FAQ's because they make these mistakes so regularly.

As above, yes, WotC makes things ambiguous at times, when the line between RAW and RAI gets blurred. This is the way cheap tricks like using Precocious Apprentice or Sanctum Spell to get "2nd level" spells as a PrC prereq. So no, it's not impossible for rules to be confusing, and it's not improbable that players will either twist rules or use them creatively for their own means. But that's not WotC's fault, and they honestly don't make as many mistakes as they do ambiguous phrasing, which is only natural considering they don't want to write pages of caveats for every class ability and feat. Not to be blunt, but the person spelling "imposable", "miss worded", "get mislead", using the wrong form of "their/there" every time, and (not to beat a dead horse, but) sees the word "one" as "all" in the Mystic Theurge description, shouldn't really be criticizing people about making mistakes.


Edit 1: GreenSerpent some of the books with classes give examples of add int to all previous casters wile other don't that both have the same line +1 level of existing spellcasting class and can mean ether depending on witch member of there there staff wrote it

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Add Int to previous casters? Like, make previous casters Int-based instead of Cha-based or whatever they were? Add Int to DCs? This passage proves that not only WotC is capable of ambiguity. When a class references all previous classes, it goes into pretty lengthy detail about its interactions with those classes. Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord's caster level, as well as that determined by arcane casters with the Master Spellthief feat, are good examples.

I have to say, as this is the second thread you've made with this same idea and is as dysfunctional as the first, you might want to tone it down a little. Or at least just add on to this thread with new builds instead of making a new one. You're not even using 9/9/9/9 in the right (traditionally accepted) way. When people say dual nines, they're usually referring to a caster of both 9th level arcane and divine spells. They usually do not mean a caster of 9th level wizard and sorcerer, or wizard and wu-jen spells, or druid and cleric, or archivist and cleric (god forbid). 9/9/9 is usually used for something like Beholder Mages, with 9th level arcane, divine, and psionics. If you want to try your hand at a 9/9/9/9 build, try to make 9th level arcane spells (wizard, sorcerer, wu-jen), 9th level divine spells (cleric, favored soul, druid, archivist), 9th level psionic powers (psion, wilder, ardent), and 9th level martial maneuvers (crusader, swordsage, warblade.) To be as SAD as possible, try for Wizard/Wu-Jen, Archivist, Psion, Warblade. You will not be able to do this before Epic, I absolutely promise you, but that would be a build for quad-9s. Not what you've done.

[GreenSerpent]

Nettlekid, I think he means add it to all. As in, add +1 spellcasting level to all your previous spellcasting classes.

Book and page reference for something that says this, please. Also, what Nettlekid said.

[Private]

My recommendation is this: perhaps you should just take a little more time to familiarize yourself with the rules. Not everyone is going to be able to make Pun-Pun, an not everyone has a solid grasp of every concept in the d20 (in this case, WoTC) material.

Also, consider this: if it was as easy to achieve the intended result, perhaps someone with a considerably greater knowledge of the rules would have found this build before.

I don't say these things as discouragement, but instead I hope that you keep looking, learning, and building. There are tons of cool combinations of 3.5 material that make magnificently broken characters, but they are illusive.

My best advice would just be to learn from some of the people here at GiTP, as many of them have taught me many things, even though I am one of the more rules-knowledgeable people in my group.

When you make posts like this, you really draw a lot of attention to yourself, but not in a positive way. People here are actually pretty cool, as long as you show the same respect that you expect to the be given.

[Togo]

My recommendation is this: perhaps you should just take a little more time to familiarize yourself with the rules. Not everyone is going to be able to make Pun-Pun, an not everyone has a solid grasp of every concept in the d20 (in this case, WoTC) material.

Most formulations of Pun-Pun rely on very dubious rules calls. I'd suggest that a solid grasp of the rules is actually disadvantage in TO.

[docnessuno]

Most formulations of Pun-Pun rely on very dubious rules calls. I'd suggest that a solid grasp of the rules is actually disadvantage in TO.

Begone from where you came from! :smallbiggrin:

Pun pun, in its latest incarnation at least, is pretty much the perfect example of pure RAW TO. Yes, sometimes previous build relied on RAW-dubious features, but each was pointed out multiple times, discussed by the TO community and ironed out in the following builds.

[searlefm]

i have chosen the 9/9/9/9 build concept because it is hard and because I've never seen it as most the stuff in using dose appear in multiple books or dragon magazines and each time its a little different

if you want easy power be a human take troll blood at level one and become a Green Star Adept (or any other class that macks you a construct).
you keep you regeneration and its benefits lethal damage becoming non lethal on you and you're now immune to ability drain, level drain nonlethal, and nonlethal damage that one quick immortality build that's easy to achieve and 100% RAW

or you could be a Erudite 9/Shadowmind 1 so that at level 10 you can read anyone mind and can learn psi ability that person knows
another 100% RAW build for omnipotent psion

builds for infinite power, versatility, or health are easy and boring the fun one are the proving the imposable builds

[GreenSerpent]

i have chosen the 9/9/9/9 build concept because it is hard and because I've never seen it as most the stuff in using dose appear in multiple books or dragon magazines and each time its a little different

if you want easy power be a human take troll blood at level one and become a Green Star Adept (or any other class that macks you a construct).
you keep you regeneration and its benefits lethal damage becoming non lethal on you and you're now immune to ability drain, level drain nonlethal, and nonlethal damage that one quick immortality build that's easy to achieve and 100% RAW

or you could be a Erudite 9/Shadowmind 1 so that at level 10 you can read anyone mind and can learn psi ability that person knows
another 100% RAW build for omnipotent psion

builds for infinite power, versatility, or health are easy and boring the fun one are the proving the imposable builds

Except that troll regeneration is bypassed by fire and acid, and you're still vulnerable to mind-affecting effects. A simple Dominate Person and hey, you're under my control. Or even a normal Disintegrate - no CON score means your FORT save will be poor. Plus Green Star Adept has 1/2 spellcasting progression which is really quite poor.

Also, you still haven't responded to my above query. What classes apply this caster level increase to all your previous classes? Book and page reference please.

[Nettlekid]

i have chosen the 9/9/9/9 build concept because it is hard and because I've never seen it as most the stuff in using dose appear in multiple books or dragon magazines and each time its a little different

if you want easy power be a human take troll blood at level one and become a Green Star Adept (or any other class that macks you a construct).
you keep you regeneration and its benefits lethal damage becoming non lethal on you and you're now immune to ability drain, level drain nonlethal, and nonlethal damage that one quick immortality build that's easy to achieve and 100% RAW

or you could be a Erudite 9/Shadowmind 1 so that at level 10 you can read anyone mind and can learn psi ability that person knows
another 100% RAW build for omnipotent psion

builds for infinite power, versatility, or health are easy and boring the fun one are the proving the imposable builds

See, both of those "builds" you just suggested are perfect examples of how you seem to be throwing together a slapdash character with little to no understanding of the mechanics involved with the class features or other abilities, in a hasty and somewhat haughty attempt at proving yourself clever when...well.

The Troll-Blooded Regeneration disappears when you become a Construct. The rules of regeneration specify that a creature without a Con score cannot have regeneration (see MM I page 314.) Even if that worked, it is by no means an immortal build. But that's irrelevant, because what you suggested simply doesn't work, RAW or RAI.

The Erudite/Shadowmind suggestion doesn't work simply by the mechanics of the Erudite power-learning class feature. You can't just zap-zap and learn a power if you can read the target's mind. If you even read the Erudite class feature, you'd see that you need to touch an either willing or unconscious target and you see all powers that they know. You then commit the power to memory by expending XP. It takes 8 hours to do, and you must make a few Psicraft checks to do so. All of these instructions have been stated explicitly in the written rules of the Erudite, so I have no idea how you think what you said makes a RAW build, never mind an omnipotent psion build.

Please don't be so hasty, please read over the build ideas you're suggesting and look over the class features listed to make sure they actually do work the way you think they do, and then read them over a second time to double check. And then please, proofread your post. The word you're looking for is "make," not "mack."

[Melcar]

I have got to ask...

What does 9/9/9/9 mean? I simply dont get it?

[nedz]

A build which has 9th level spell casting in 4 spell casting classes.
This is taken to include manoeuvres for ToB classes, powers for psionics etc.

[Melcar]

Ahhh... ok!

And the amout of spells per day? How was that achieved?

[Gandariel]

It was not :P

[Melcar]

I would like to see this build in combat against uhh I dont know, my own wizard... then it would learn the meaning of pain!

[ps377]

i didnt see anyone asking this, so i will have to ask..
how will u get "Mystic Theurge" or even "Geomancer" at lvl 5 since they both need to be able to cast 2nd lvl spells?

[Alleran]

i didnt see anyone asking this, so i will have to ask..
how will u get "Mystic Theurge" or even "Geomancer" at lvl 5 since they both need to be able to cast 2nd lvl spells?
Early entry tricks that entail a combination of feats and/or magical locations to provide the character in question with spells that count as 2nd level (even if they might not normally be) despite the character not actually being 2nd level, which completes the requirements for class access.

It's generally not all that hard, if you're willing to pay the feat tax. Skill requirements are harder (Illithid Savants and a two-feat combo in Cityscape are the only ones I can recall offhand that do it), and BAB requirements are harder still (if they can be done at all).

[JoshuaZ]

i have chosen the 9/9/9/9 build concept because it is hard and because I've never seen it as most the stuff in using dose appear in multiple books or dragon magazines and each time its a little different



An undergraduate math major is'n't generally advised to start off trying to prove the Riemann hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis). They can do interesting and good original work. Heck, even highschool students can do original stuff. But jumping into the deep end isn't going to work until they have prior background and experience.