High power Gestalt with Druid

[Fyermind]

I'm running a Druid in a gestalt game starting at level 1. Dual advancement prestige on both sides are allowed but you can't advance the same class feature twice at once.

I'm in a party with a warmage casting off the entire cleric list gunning for anima mage and incantrix, so a little bit of cheese isn't out of the question.

What are some interesting options for running alongside of druid 20 and why should I choose one over the other?

Currently I'm debating between Totemist, Incarnate, and swordsage. Totemist doesn't really kick in until level 2, but incarnate will be sharing dissolving spittle with their animal companions from level 1 which is competitive damage on a touch attack until fleshrakers come online. Swordsages never get as useful as totemists as far as I can tell, but I've never played a powerful swordsage.

Edit: added high power to the threat title.

[thethird]

I would go with totemist, totemist is focused on giving you natural attacks and improving them and both you and your animal companion can benefit from them.

Unarmed Swordsage can also be an option if you want to invest some stuff into unarmed combat and you can do it while wildshaped.

Overall I would pick totemist over incarnate, and probably over swordsage (but I do really like incarnum).

[Immabozo]

I would go Illumian with the power sigil to change spells per day stat to str, Druid 5/MoMF 2/Nature's Warrior 5 and then after Nature's Warrior 5, Druid straight up on one side, Wizard 3/sorcerer 1/ultimate magus 10, the any wizard RrC that tickles your fancy.

Run around shape changed into a war troll at level 12 (wear the necklace the ups effective HD for shifting by 4) and run around with 31 str before buffing. At 20 (with that amulet) take the 24 HD form of a gerivar, natural grenade weapons, 33 str, huge natural armor (wearing wildshaping armor is another HUGE boost to armor and no arcane spell failure, or ACP)

And then, when you are out of your MASSIVE reservoir of spells, you are still the toughest melee fighter the group probably has.

[Fouredged Sword]

Dragonborn (breath) Water Orc Druid 20 (shapeshifer ACF) // Barbarian 2 / fighter 2 / Warshaper 4 / Warhulk 10 / Hulking Hurler 2.

Start with a high strength melee tank for a total of +12 to strength over base when raging and shifted. You just get stronger and stronger, eventually capping out at something like +30 to strength per buffs. At level 9 you start to hit multiple squares each swing. At 18 you hit every square around you each swing.

You don't even have to focus on wis. You can get away with a 11 wis as a starting character as you don't need to cast during combat. A +6 item and 2 stat points from advancement will get you the needed 19. Focus your stats on Strength and Con.

You have fast healing, are immune to crits, and lots of other cool stuff.

Consider great cleave after 12 as you then hit lots of things with each swing, allowing for exploding numbers of attacks.

[Qc Storm]

Swordsage with wildshape could give out some interesting results, I think.

Just think about a Tornado Throwing Bear, having your claws catch on fire at will, Raging Mongoose (You're taking unarmed swordsage right?)

Plus you get a ton of Wisdom synergy. But I guess it can't match tier 1 caster cheese.

[Immabozo]

Warhulk 10

where can I find this PrC?

[kardar233]

where can I find this PrC?

War Hulk is in the Miniatures Handbook and also online (and errata'd) here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a).

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, you can mighty swing as a AOO after warhulk 4, so if something provokes you can hit him and his pal next to him. It becomes an attack action:smallbiggrin:.

At 10 you hit everything in your reach every time an AOO comes around. Take rolbars(sp?, afb) gambit, see who is willing to take a swing at you.

[WinWin]

Shifter race.

Classes...Swordsage focusing on Tiger Claw, Bloodclaw Master and Weretouched Master. That ought to make Wildshape terrifyingly effective, especially if you decide to manifest Shifter traits in a non-standard form in order to gain bonus natural attacks.

[kardar233]

Also, if you're going Shifter make at least a dip into Barbarian and grab Shifter Savagery; it's pure gold for Druids.

[Darth Stabber]

I would go totemist, it works so beautifully with druid, both mechanically and flavorfully. Even if you only dip 2 levels of, those are two levels well spent.

Druid20//totemist2/swordsageX/prcY is a fine way to go.

The only issue with druid//totemist is items. Both classes make finding the right magic items a pain in the butt, and added together it gets even more annoying. With the totemist2 dip, it isn't a problem at all, but more than that and you have to be careful (it's worth the work, though I would also say that it is your best chance to use vow of poverty)

[Immabozo]

Druid 14/MoMF 1/Nature's Warrior 5//War 1/4 something else/5 war shaper/10 war hulk

You will be a BEAST in melee!

[Aurenthal]

Isn't there a barbarian variant that gives you pounce or something like that, anyways use that and make an Ubercharger and use the Frozen Wild Shape, that way you can Full attack with 12 attacks as a Cryo-Hydra as a charge, also you could take the fast wildshape(Complete Divine) and Swift Wildshape (Complete Champion) feats, and that way you turn into the creature you want in a swift action and in the same turn charge and full attack... Although I'm not sure how many feats you could take from the Ubercharger build

[Immabozo]

You get the fast shifting feat free with my build, in addition to several forms have pounce, plus there is the pounce wild feat

And SO many better abilities with that build

[Rodimal]

I played a gestalt Ranger/Druid with Archery as his ranger focus. By 12th level I was nuking encounters designed for a party of five left and right by myself.

[demigodus]

I would go Druid 5 / Planar Shepherd 10 / +Casting progression 5 up one side.

Towards the later levels, animal companions start to get less game breaking, and monks start catching up to them, so you might get more out of some PRC that just progresses spell casting and something else (a level in Contemplative might be useful for example)

On the other side, I would go:

Unarmed Swordsage 2 / ??? 3 / Fist of the Forest 1 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Nature's Warrior 3 / Shadowdancer 1

Not sure what base class to use for those 3 levels of ???. Maybe factotum for skills, with Able Learner feat so you can be a total skill monkey? Maybe a level of cleric for domains, and DMM: Persist shenanigans? You could take 3 levels of commoner there if you want, and this should work. Alternatively 3 levels of cleric, and worship Mystra so that you can cast in an AMF

What this gets you:

Level 20 druid spell casting
Wild Shape up to 12 times per day (1 at druid 5, 1 at PS 1, 10 from MMoF) as a move action (or pick up the swift wildshape feat to make it a swift action
Ton of wildshape options from MMoF. Planar Shepherd then allows magical beasts and outsides WITH TEMPLATES, and gives you Ex, Su, and Sp abilities of those outsiders.
Use NW to pick up fast healing when wild shaped. Unlimited, free healing
Level 15 druid animal companion: kinda useless at this point. If a T-Rex can solve a problem, it is too trivial to be worth your time (can be useful in an AMF situation though)
Add both Con and Wis to touch AC. One of those stats you will be boosting into the skies, the other gets boosted for free when you wild shape into templated creatures of doom
Improved Unarmed strike means adding unarmed iterative attacks to your attack sequence. Except you punch like a monk, so these pack quite a punch
Hide in Plain Sight, in case you need to sneak by something

This build should let you contribute in any situation, even if you forget that you have this thing called spells.

Note: this build was made with the idea that the Incantatrix/Anima Mage/Rainbow Warsnake (I'm assuming that is how your warmage is getting his casting) is the approximate expected power level for this game. This build can certainly play at a lower level if you completely forget about certain options, but played to its full potential, it will be rather ridiculous.

[Nightgaun7]

I would go totemist, it works so beautifully with druid, both mechanically and flavorfully. Even if you only dip 2 levels of, those are two levels well spent.

Druid20//totemist2/swordsageX/prcY is a fine way to go.

The only issue with druid//totemist is items. Both classes make finding the right magic items a pain in the butt, and added together it gets even more annoying. With the totemist2 dip, it isn't a problem at all, but more than that and you have to be careful (it's worth the work, though I would also say that it is your best chance to use vow of poverty)

Could you elucidate a bit more?


OP, I strongly suggest you ignore everyone who tells you to dilute your druid casting as one side of your gestalt. In that sort of game max casting is going to be invaluable. The melee side, if that's what you want, is a lot more negotiable and based on what you want to do with it.

I would do something like Druid 20 (or planar shepherd or a couple other PRCs that keep full casting)//Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/PsyWar 2/Totemist 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Warshaper 2-4 (matter of what you want from it, I would go for 3 but it's up to you)/MoMF 8-10. You can mix this around as you like, of course. For instance you could do Lion Totem Barb 1/Totemist 3/Swordsage etc, or PsyWar 4, or something like that. You want to be at least level 4 before jumping in to swordsage though.

Another option would be to add cleric to the non-druid side and then use nature's warrior and some other melee PRC's that advance divine casting, to get access to a number of good spells that aren't on the Druid list while still setting you up to smack things in wildshape.

[Fyermind]

Some Clarifications:
This is high power, no loops, no near infinities, relaxed DM.

The Warmage is getting cleric spells as a dragonwrought kobold master of the hoard, and has pumped intelligence through the roof with riddled and spellhoarding afflictions.

Another player is looking at an artificer 20 // Factotum 20. Given the DM's leniency with character creation, and assuming it translates to items, we will have some spectacular custom gear.

Planar Shepard looks like a very good idea for higher levels.

I am nervous about finding a way to compete with 1d4+10 damage magic missiles at level 1.

An option is that LA has been ruled to take only half of the gestalt, so a +1 LA race might be a possibility. (feral/Half-minotaur I'm looking at you) But I don't want to waste my lower levels on something that will become obsolete at level 5 with the advent of wild shape. It would replace cloistered cleric in the build below.

Druid 5 / Planar Shepherd 10 / druid casting 5 // Barbarian 2 / Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Fist of the forest 1 / MoMF 10 / Natures warrior or Warshaper 4

In any event this should be fairly competitive as a beatstick with plenty of divine kick behind it. what are suggestions for improvements or developments of this? Feats and race are still up in the air.

[demigodus]

I would suggest not competing with the warmage kobold in terms of damage output. If his build focuses on delivering mail (where mail is death by damage), let him be better than you. It means that the party has the damage delivery aspect covered.

As for the artificer // factotum, talk with him to make sure you guys aren't doubling up on the same skills. Only one of you needs to have a spot/listen check high enough to locate an invisible rogue in a zone of silence.

If you are going Warshaper instead of Nature's warrior, take those levels before Master of Many Form. Otherwise nothing is advancing your wild shaping HD at levels 17~20

For feats, I would suggest Eschew Material Components, and Wordly Focus if there is the slightest chance that the DM will target your component pouch or divine focus, or you might get captured.

Pick up natural spell at level 6. Not sure whether greensinger or nightbringer initiate feat is better.

Rapid Spell + Ring of the beast lets you cast Summon Nature's Ally as a full round action instead of a 1 round action.

If your DM allows feat retraining, Greenbound Summoning is an excellent feat at early levels. Greenbound Summoning + Rapid Spell + Ring of the Beast means that on your turn you cast SNA to summon 1 (or d3) creatures that then cast entangle. Or get Wall of Thorns VERY early. Essentially letting you crowd control without preparation. At high levels SNA loses its awesome though since you become a complete beast and your summons just can't keep up with you.

[thethird]

Okay if this is high power it changes some stuff. And if Planar Shepard is on the table it really is high power.

First of all you do not really need barbarian for pounce (shape soulmeld sphinx claws and open chakra, or a few levels of totemists would be more worth it since you would end being able to share them with your companion).

Second of all do you really need MoMF? Most bonuses are already concurrent with your planar shepard which plane do you intend to use? Is it necessary MoMF 10 to access to the high powered forms?

Third are you really going to focus on wildshape and spellcasting? At that level of power I would be going for miniomancy.

I would go with druid 10 / Planar Shepard 10 // Totemist 3 / Unarmed swordsage 2 // Fist of the forest 3 / Warshapper 4 / Natures warrior 5 / Shou disciple 3

(shou disciple is from unaprochable east and would let you flurry with your natural attacks).

[Nightgaun7]

To clarify: barbarian is mostly there to get you shifter savagery, which is pretty good. Personally, I would ignore MoMF and get maybe dragon wildshape and frozen wildshape as feats, but if you want the ability to change into everything and it's mother then go ahead.

Shou disciple will probably be less than useful, since it limits attacking and moving.

Nature's Warrior is OK to advance wildshaping and casting, but it's not what I would call a high impact class.

Are you going to be summoning a lot? Whatever you focus on will determine most of your feats aside from natural spell.

[Fyermind]

What do I get out of totemist 3? +4 vs. magical beasts isn't a fantastic save boost.

Is there something better to replace this with or a +1 race/template that will keep helping when I wild shape?

My goal is to be a BSF. Ideally I would become my opponents weakness end start dishing, but priority goes to protecting the low HP factotum and warmage. I'm the only one who can keep my con score above 14, so they will be squishy.

[Immabozo]

So embrace the wild shaping beast, like I suggested. Take the feat to make fort saves instead of will and totally obliterate casters as a beast in melee and be that meat shield they need. A strong caster is not what is needed in that group

[Darth Stabber]

Could you elucidate a bit more?

Elucidate on which?

Totemist2? At 2nd level totemist gets totem chakra bind. Totem chakra has no matching item slot, and has most of the offensive effects.

VoP on totemist//druids?

Totemist has a hard time with items since it's class abilities turn off item slots, it can be worked around, mostly through spending extra money (usually slotless or unusually slotted items). Wildshape focused druids have a hard time with items since most items disappear into your new form, it can be solved, mostly through spending extra money (often wilding clasps). Considering the amount of money you are spending on gear, it gets really expensive to get the bonuses and stuff most characters get from items. Also since druid is a tier 1 class, it has access to most of the effects that are needed at higher levels, and totemist has a lot of those on it's own, you are after bonuses primarily. VoP gives you bonuses, and since the bonuses are from a feat, they apply in any alternate form you might take. The biggest thing you miss out on is spell completion items, and spells with expensive components/foci (and there are rules for casting those with xp instead). So you miss out on a few spells and the ability to have 1000 utility spells available at moments notice.

Building upon my sample build?

I haven't sat down and thought it out for this specific instance, but I will offer my standard VoP gestalt druid

Pixie LA4/totemist2/unarmed swordsage2/totemist1/saint template2/warshaper1/spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian1/warshaper3/totemist4//druid20

Take a flaw to get VoP at lvl1, and ignore the rat race of itemization. Classes are split up to optimize each level's playability.

[demigodus]

So embrace the wild shaping beast, like I suggested. Take the feat to make fort saves instead of will and totally obliterate casters as a beast in melee and be that meat shield they need. A strong caster is not what is needed in that group

I would argue that in a group like this, you definitely need casting.

It is great to go a melee monster, but you want some spells to fall back on. Especially if the two Tier 1/0's in the party get their act together, a melee monster might be very unnecessary at times.

That said, Master of Many Forms may be unnecessary past level 3. It grants Fast Wild Shape which is nice (and lets you get Swift Wild Shape as a result). Also, lets you talk in animal form in case your DM isn't okay with you nomming on crystals, while using bite attacks in combat, without something happening to those crystals.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Druid 1// Cloistered Cleric 1
2. Druid 2// Wizard 1
3. Druid 3// Wizard 2
4. Druid 4// Wizard 3
5. Druid 5// Wizard 4
6. Arcane Heirophant 1// Beguiler 1
7. Arcane Heirophant 2// Incantatrix 1
8. Arcane Heirophant 3// Incantatrix 2
9. Arcane Heirophant 4// Incantatrix 3
10. Arcane Heirophant 5// Incantatrix 4
11. Arcane Heirophant 6// Dweomerkeeper 1
12. Arcane Heirophant 7// Dweomerkeeper 2
13. Arcane Heirophant 8// Dweomerkeeper 3
14. Arcane Heirophant 9// Dweomerkeeper 4
15. Arcane Heirophant 10// Dweomerkeeper 5
16. Mystic Theurge 1// Dweomerkeeper 6
17. Mystic Theurge 2// Dweomerkeeper 7
18. Mystic Theurge 3// Dweomerkeeper 8
19. Mystic Theurge 4// Dweomerkeeper 9
20. Mystic Theurge 5// Dweomerkeeper 10

Druid 20 casting, Druid 15 for Wild Shape and Animal Companion (18 with Natural Bond)
Cleric 1 casting minimum, +0-10 as desired*, Turn Undead at 1st level for DMM
Wizard 19 casting, Abrupt Jaunt and Augment Summoning free, Wizard 14 for Familiar benefits on Companion Familiar.
Beguiler 5 casting minimum, +0-10 as desired*, get Versatile Spellcaster to spend Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any spell you know of up to 8th level, possibly any spell from any of the above class' spell lists.

Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic to Persist your spells. Divine Metamagic, could use it for moar Persist or maybe do Quicken or something nasty like Fell Drain. Dweomercheater 10. Staggered levels for +18 BAB.

[Darth Stabber]

1. Druid 1// Cloistered Cleric 1
2. Druid 2// Wizard 1
3. Druid 3// Wizard 2
4. Druid 4// Wizard 3
5. Druid 5// Wizard 4
6. Arcane Heirophant 1// Beguiler 1
7. Arcane Heirophant 2// Incantatrix 1
8. Arcane Heirophant 3// Incantatrix 2
9. Arcane Heirophant 4// Incantatrix 3
10. Arcane Heirophant 5// Incantatrix 4
11. Arcane Heirophant 6// Dweomerkeeper 1
12. Arcane Heirophant 7// Dweomerkeeper 2
13. Arcane Heirophant 8// Dweomerkeeper 3
14. Arcane Heirophant 9// Dweomerkeeper 4
15. Arcane Heirophant 10// Dweomerkeeper 5
16. Mystic Theurge 1// Dweomerkeeper 6
17. Mystic Theurge 2// Dweomerkeeper 7
18. Mystic Theurge 3// Dweomerkeeper 8
19. Mystic Theurge 4// Dweomerkeeper 9
20. Mystic Theurge 5// Dweomerkeeper 10

Druid 20 casting, Druid 15 for Wild Shape and Animal Companion (18 with Natural Bond)
Cleric 1 casting minimum, +0-10 as desired*, Turn Undead at 1st level for DMM
Wizard 19 casting, Abrupt Jaunt and Augment Summoning free, Wizard 14 for Familiar benefits on Companion Familiar.
Beguiler 5 casting minimum, +0-10 as desired*, get Versatile Spellcaster to spend Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any spell you know of up to 8th level, possibly any spell from any of the above class' spell lists.

Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic to Persist your spells. Divine Metamagic, could use it for moar Persist or maybe do Quicken or something nasty like Fell Drain. Dweomercheater 10. Staggered levels for +18 BAB.

That breaks every gestalt character creation rule. Have you even read the rules for gestalt?

No theurge classes, use fractional BAB and saves, no dual prestiging. All of these are carefully spelled out in the rules for the variant. In fact those rules exist specifically to prevent anything like what you just wrote.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That breaks every gestalt character creation rule. Have you even read the rules for gestalt?

No theurge classes, use fractional BAB and saves, no dual prestiging. All of these are carefully spelled out in the rules for the variant. In fact those rules exist specifically to prevent anything like what you just wrote.

Did you even bother reading the OP?


I'm running a Druid in a gestalt game starting at level 1. Dual advancement prestige on both sides are allowed but you can't advance the same class feature twice at once.

[Darth Stabber]

Did you even bother reading the OP?

Okay, that is a fair point, but the fractional BAB and saves is still a thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Okay, that is a fair point, but the fractional BAB and saves is still a thing.

Fractional BAB and base saves is a completely separate optional rule from gestalt, which did not appear in this thread until you brought it up. You cannot assume that just because one variant rules system is in use, another which happens to appear in close proximity to it is also going to be in use.

[Darth Stabber]

Fractional BAB and base saves is a completely separate optional rule from gestalt, which did not appear in this thread until you brought it up. You cannot assume that just because one variant rules system is in use, another which happens to appear in close proximity to it is also going to be in use.

Regular D&D can get a little wonky without fractional BAB and saves, gesalt makes it insane.

[Fyermind]

Note from Opening Poster: Fractional BAB and saves are in. Sorry I forgot to mention it.