[PF] Houseruling AMF

[Da'Shain]

In our last session, my current DM threw a dragon using AMF at us, to the collective groans of my party. After we defeated it (largely due to the DM giving us a break), the DM admitted he didn't much like the spell either, but saw no reason the dragon wouldn't use it when it was on his spell list.

I know there's ways around it, but the ones I've heard pretty much all require being prepared for it and having exactly the right spells or characters tailor made to do so. It's also always seemed to me way too powerful an effect for a 6th level spell to have, flat out negating pretty much all spells regardless of caster level or power and totally boning martial classes that rely on magic items.

So, in my own upcoming game, I'm planning to houserule it to make it a bit easier to deal with while still keeping it a viable option, make it interact with other spells a bit more. Here's what I have so far:

Antimagic Field (and similar effects):

When cast, the 10-foot radius emanates from the intersection of squares at the center of the target's space. If cast on a creature occupying an odd number of squares (i.e. Medium or Huge), the caster must choose a corner of their center square from which the AMF will emanate for its duration.
AMF is not invisible, but manifests as a subtly greenish rippling area that can be seen with a Perception check DC 25.
An AMF must now beat any creature's spell resistance before affecting it or its equipment. This check is made each time a new creature would be affected by the AMF, and is made separately for each creature. Any SR possessed by the target of the AMF is automatically pierced.
A hero point can be spent to ignore the effects of AMF for one round.
Damage Reduction, as a Su ability, does not function in AMF. All Su or Sp abilities are suppressed as normal; Ex abilities remain unsuppressed in general, unless obviously magical in some fashion (e.g. incorporeality).
A Mage's Disjunction or similar effect destroys the AMF with no roll or save required. Objects and creatures inside the destroyed AMF are not affected, however, nor are buffs which were suppressed by the AMF.
A Wish spell or similar effect can confer the ability to ignore AMF's effect on buffs and gear for 1 round/level of caster. It cannot, however, confer the ability to cast spells or manifest powers inside of an AMF. A Limited Wish or similar effect does the same, but lasts for only 2 rounds.
Only two spells may be cast inside an AMF: Mage's Disjunction (or similar effect), or Greater Dispel Magic (or similar effect, for power, it requires PP expenditure of at least 11 pp before any pp mitigators). The latter must be cast as a targeted dispel on the target of AMF, and must be cast from inside the AMF (otherwise it passes through without effect). If there are no spaces inside the AMF that can be occupied by the GDM caster, they must cast from a space directly adjacent to the AMF. The DC to dispel AMF is 5 higher than normal. If it succeeds, the AMF is dispelled, but no other buffs or debuffs on the target of AMF are affected.
Any weapon swung, thrown or fired into a square affected by AMF loses its magical properties. If the weapon's wielder does not have to enter the squares to attack, though, magical equipment and buffs on the wielder function as normal. (i.e. A Large sized Fighter attacks with a magical spear into an AMF; he has reach 15 and thus does not have to enter, but the spear does and thus he loses its bonuses to hit and damage. Likewise, an archer firing into an AMF retains their own buffs and bonuses, but bonuses conferred on the projectile are suppressed, so a +5 Bow does not confer a +5 bonus to hit or damage a creature in AMF.)
Creatures wielding natural weapons and attacking into an AMF lose the benefits of all buffs and equipment for the purposes of that attack.

I'm not the most experienced DM in the world, so I figured I'd run these by the minds here and see what they came up with. So, how does this look? Unbalancing? Has anyone houseruled AMF for themselves, or have suggestions? Let me know if this seems like a good idea.

[tyckspoon]

Damage Reduction, as a Su ability, does not function in AMF. All Su or Sp abilities are suppressed as normal; Ex abilities remain unsuppressed.
Any weapon swung, thrown or fired into a square affected by AMF loses its magical properties. If the weapon's wielder does not have to enter the squares to attack, though, magical equipment and buffs on the wielder function as normal. (i.e. A Large sized Fighter attacks with a magical spear into an AMF; he has reach 15 and thus does not have to enter, but the spear does and thus he loses its bonuses to hit and damage. Likewise, an archer firing into an AMF retains their own buffs and bonuses, but bonuses conferred on the projectile are suppressed, so a +5 Bow does not confer a +5 bonus to hit or damage a creature in AMF.)
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These are already part of the rules, AFAIK (specifically, DR/Magic and DR/Alignment are Supernatural, while DR/Material is Extraordinary, according to 3.5's Rules Compendium), although AMF is a really complicated spell and I haven't checked to see if Pathfinder meaningfully changed it.

Also, when dealing with AMF, it's really important to remember the rules for spell placement- a spell does not originate from a creature's spaces or an individual square. It originates from a *grid intersection*; a Large creature barely fits within its own AMF, and a Huge or bigger one *cannot* fit entirely within the AMF, especially if it wants to have any of it projecting outward to include other creatures. A dragon old enough to be able to cast AMF will almost certainly have areas that are not covered by it, which changes it from 'oh gods it's a magic-immune dragon' to a tactical challenge of 'how do we get around the AMF'd area and attack the open section?'

[demigodus]

Also, when dealing with AMF, it's really important to remember the rules for spell placement- a spell does not originate from a creature's spaces or an individual square. It originates from a *grid intersection*; a Large creature barely fits within its own AMF, and a Huge or bigger one *cannot* fit entirely within the AMF, especially if it wants to have any of it projecting outward to include other creatures. A dragon old enough to be able to cast AMF will almost certainly have areas that are not covered by it, which changes it from 'oh gods it's a magic-immune dragon' to a tactical challenge of 'how do we get around the AMF'd area and attack the open section?'

This is often house ruled though so that it originates from the creature.


AMF is not invisible, but manifests as a subtly greenish rippling area that can be seen with a Perception check DC 25.

Should probably make the DC lower, else most of the party still won't see it. I would just make it rather noticeable (so something like a DC 5 spot check).


An AMF must now beat any creature's spell resistance before affecting it or its equipment. This check is made each time a new creature would be affected by the AMF, and is made separately for each creature.

Most PCs don't have spell resistance. Dragons have spell resistance that is MUCH higher than their CL. You thought the dragon-in-an-AMF was bad? Now it can also cast spells, and use its Su abilities!


Damage Reduction, as a Su ability, does not function in AMF. All Su or Sp abilities are suppressed as normal; Ex abilities remain unsuppressed.

Already true for DR that would need magic to be overcome (so DR/magic, DR/epic, and DR/alignment).

I would consider regeneration/alignment as well though. I might be wrong, but to me, that sounds rather magical, though regen is generally an Ex ability.


Any weapon swung, thrown or fired into a square affected by AMF loses its magical properties. If the weapon's wielder does not have to enter the squares to attack, though, magical equipment and buffs on the wielder function as normal. (i.e. A Large sized Fighter attacks with a magical spear into an AMF; he has reach 15 and thus does not have to enter, but the spear does and thus he loses its bonuses to hit and damage. Likewise, an archer firing into an AMF retains their own buffs and bonuses, but bonuses conferred on the projectile are suppressed, so a +5 Bow does not confer a +5 bonus to hit or damage a creature in AMF.)

Already how it is supposed to work. Can create problems if you are magically enlarged though. You are now a Large fighter wielding a normal sized spear (cause it got enlarged with you).

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Also, one thing you might want to look at, is a lot of the supposedly (Ex) flight/resistance abilities. A dragon's flight is supposedly non-magical. It is kinda impossible for a lizard of that size to fly via wings though. A red dragon's fire breath, is less unrealistic then its ability to fly. You might want to consider making too big creatures simply lose their flying ability. As well as beholders (a floating sphere IS magic) and the like.

I bring this up, because non-caster melees can't do diddly squat against a flyer in an AMF. Often times, such creatures shouldn't be flying.

Also, say a creature's fire resistance. Like, say, a fire elementals. Being a living blob of pure fire is kinda a magical effect. If you are immune to fire simply because you are fire, I would argue that being fire should be a magical effect. Hence you shouldn't be immune to fire in an AMF.

These are things that PCs can't really take advantage of too easily, only monsters.

[Da'Shain]

These are already part of the rules, AFAIK (specifically, DR/Magic and DR/Alignment are Supernatural, while DR/Material is Extraordinary, according to 3.5's Rules Compendium), although AMF is a really complicated spell and I haven't checked to see if Pathfinder meaningfully changed it.

Also, when dealing with AMF, it's really important to remember the rules for spell placement- a spell does not originate from a creature's spaces or an individual square. It originates from a *grid intersection*; a Large creature barely fits within its own AMF, and a Huge or bigger one *cannot* fit entirely within the AMF, especially if it wants to have any of it projecting outward to include other creatures. A dragon old enough to be able to cast AMF will almost certainly have areas that are not covered by it, which changes it from 'oh gods it's a magic-immune dragon' to a tactical challenge of 'how do we get around the AMF'd area and attack the open section?'I actually did look that up and knew that DR was often a Su ability (after the fact), but it was something the DM did not know while using his monster, and so since I'll be playing with the same group I felt it was important to point out in the rules for AMF.

I did NOT know the second part, though. The Area section of it is written rather poorly, then, because "centered on you" precludes it being centered on an intersection rather than square when dealing with a Medium or Huge creature. I guess for creatures of those size using it they would have to pick a corner of their center square? Enforcing this would have made our encounter, at least, far less taxing. Should make the "ten-foot radius from a specific grid intersection in your space" thing part of the houserules/clarifications.



Should probably make the DC lower, else most of the party still won't see it. I would just make it rather noticeable (so something like a DC 5 spot check).I figured the DC should be a slightly hard one for 11th level characters who've been pumping Perception (Wizards can get AMF from 11th level on) and a fairly simple one for 15th level characters (when Clerics can use it), but still be tough to spot for low level characters; I don't want it to always be obvious, I just wanted to take away the "invisible" portion of its description. Perhaps DC 20 instead?


Most PCs don't have spell resistance. Dragons have spell resistance that is MUCH higher than their CL. You thought the dragon-in-an-AMF was bad? Now it can also cast spells, and use its Su abilities!For dragons' own SR, I had been assuming that spells cast by yourself on yourself automatically ignore your own SR, but I should probably make that clear in the houserules description. For PC's SR, my experience differs from yours, at least at higher levels. In this party, for example, I'm the only one who doesn't regularly have some form of SR up through items or spells, and considering I'll be DMing for this same group I expect them to continue their trend of seeking it out.


I would consider regeneration/alignment as well though. I might be wrong, but to me, that sounds rather magical, though regen is generally an Ex ability.I'll consider this and some other abilities, like certain types of flight as you mentioned later (although Beholders I imagined as being kind of small blimps, but I can see the argument that they fly supernaturally), or incorporeality. Should probably go through the monster rules just to be thorough.


Already how it is supposed to work. Can create problems if you are magically enlarged though. You are now a Large fighter wielding a normal sized spear (cause it got enlarged with you).Couldn't find any official rules on the subject, and it came up during the fight that prompted me to begin drafting these rules, so I figured I'd clarify my (and the group's) consensus on it.


Also, say a creature's fire resistance. Like, say, a fire elementals. Being a living blob of pure fire is kinda a magical effect. If you are immune to fire simply because you are fire, I would argue that being fire should be a magical effect. Hence you shouldn't be immune to fire in an AMF.Here I'd have to disagree, because based on that argument, the Fire Elemental should simply wink out of existence in the AMF, as a blob of fire that has a will of its own doesn't make sense in a non-magical world. I prefer to think of the physics of the setting as supporting such things existing naturally. But certain types of resistance might be stripped, you're right.


Any ideas for more spell interactions with AMF? Thoughts on the Wishes and Dispels?