[PF] Two-Shield Fighting

[Crustypeanut]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/combat-feats/two-shield-fighting-combat

For those who don't wish to click on the link:
Two Shield Fighting

You make a good offense out of a great defense.

Prerequisite: Shield proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit: When wielding two shields, apply the shield bonus of both shields to your AC. If both shields provide an enhancement bonus to AC, apply the higher enhancement bonuses in full as the primary shield and +1 enhancement bonus for the off-hand shield.

Now, I'm aware this is a 3rd-party feat. One of my players wishes to fight using two shields, and I found this little feat for him. I'm here to ask ye guys this - Would allowing this one feat in the game be at all gamebreaking?

I'm leaning towards it won't be.. as I'm not allowing tower shields to work with this.

Say the person is a Level 1 Human Fighter with 16 Str and 15 Dex, using Scale Mail and two Heavy Spiked Shields. This would use up all of his feats at this first level. His AC would be rather high, at 21, but his offense would be a bit weak at first. If only attacking with one shield, he'd gain a +4 to his attack, which isn't bad for someone getting a 10-point build. Dual shield-bashing wouldn't work nearly as well at this level, as due to it being a One-Handed Weapon, that would be a -4/-4 to both attacks, for a total of +0/+0, while still retaining his AC.

If he instead uses a Heavy Shield and Light Shield, his AC would be lowered to 20 (Still quite good), and he could then attack with both shields at a +2/+2.

Honestly, I dont' see this being too overpowered.. he's going to be a tank, who can eventually Shield Slam (free bull rushes) like a boss.

What do you guys think?

[gartius]

The only thing i would be careful of is shield master feat-it allows to ignore ALL penalties involved with using the shields-so power attack penalty? ignored
two weapon fighting penalties? ignored, including penalty for itatrive attacks
luckily this only kicks in at lvl 11

in terms of the feat, yeah not broken, means a little higher AC for those willing to invest in it.

[Hylas]

The shield master feat is poorly worded, allowing you to ignore "all" penalties. Probably even power attack though personally if I were DMing I wouldn't allow it. I'd just have it ignore the -2/-2 for TWF.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat---final

As long as it doesn't affect power attack then I wouldn't say the 3rd party feat is overpowered. If it does then it'll be pretty crazy (for a fighter that is, they still aren't a wizard).

The feat by itself is just fine. Only shield master breaks it.

[Crustypeanut]

Yeah I was looking at that feat at level 11, and honestly by then I don't think it would be overpowered. The Two-Weapon Warrior archetype allows it already around that levelish, so having the ability to dual-shield bash/bullrush without two-weapon fighting penalties isn't too much of a difference.. except people go flying.

I wonder if Shield Slam could work in combination with Whirlwind attack.. if so, that would be awesome to see happen, and as a DM, if he took that feat, I'd have to give him the opportunity to send 8 people flying at once.

[Chained Birds]

IMO, the Ranger does a better job at being a two-shield fighter due to gaining access to the best shield stuff earlier than any other class and having spells to back them up.

Though the feat in question just grants a +2 or +3 extra bonus to non-touch AC. Also I'd allow Shield Mastery to work on Power Attack, as it is such a niche thing and gives something awesome to a player who actually wanted to make two-weapon fighting work (Who was not a rogue).

Maybe, with PA penalties gone, a TWF Fighter/Ranger may be able to out damage a TH Fighter/Ranger in the end... Or at least be more accurate. :smallconfused:

[Hylas]

Maybe, with PA penalties gone, a TWF Fighter/Ranger may be able to out damage a TH Fighter/Ranger in the end... Or at least be more accurate. :smallconfused:

Now that I think about it, yeah, they're kinda on par, damage-wise, with a TH Fighter, but down several feats. Aren't large spiked shields 1d6 and x2 crit? Yeah, still worse than a greatsword or a reach weapon. The AC is good but you're still more likely to die from a failed save or a touch attack.

I say allow it and let us know how it turned out.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Heavy spiked Bashing shields are 2d6, iirc. And yeah, for shield master I would treat it as applying only to TWF penalties (not limit it to -2/-2, though, two heavy shields incurs -4/-4 and should be viable), the literal interpretation is silly. Would probably get even sillier with paizo's called shot rules, which I believe merely require you to take a sizeable attack penalty to hit a certain area for a special effect. Of course, paizo's called shot rules are inherently silly.

[SowZ]

Your damage output will be so severely hampered for a +4 AC bonus, no, it isn't OP. If shield master allows you to ignore the tower shield/TWF penalties, no, that still isn't OP. Yeah, it shouldn't let you ignore penalties from things like Power Attack.

[Crustypeanut]

A heavy spiked shield is only 1d6 /x2. And its NOT a light weapon, so technically its inferior to even a shortsword.

And no, for the purposes of Shield Master, I'm only allowing it to ignore two-weapon fighting penalties (including those from not using a light weapon)

Power Attack and others will still penalize them.

I do agree that a Ranger would very likely be better off than a fighter, but my player would prefer to go Fighter for the extra feats. And I think he's aiming towards heavier armor. He's also going to be a Hobgoblin, not a human, but since in this campaign I will be using Hero Points, he's opting against them for a bonus feat. I think he will likely regret that decision with what I have in store for them.

From what I'm looking at, this feat will allow at maximum a +4 AC bonus. +2 from a Heavy Shield, +1 from Shield Focus, and +1 from the 'offhand' enhancement bonus, once that shield is magic.

It will also, of course, allow him to be awesome. I've always wanted to make a two-shield fighter.. though I'd pick Dwarf, because Dwarf. :P

[SowZ]

A heavy spiked shield is only 1d6 /x2. And its NOT a light weapon, so technically its inferior to even a shortsword.

And no, for the purposes of Shield Master, I'm only allowing it to ignore two-weapon fighting penalties (including those from not using a light weapon)

Power Attack and others will still penalize them.

I do agree that a Ranger would very likely be better off than a fighter, but my player would prefer to go Fighter for the extra feats. And I think he's aiming towards heavier armor. He's also going to be a Hobgoblin, not a human, but since in this campaign I will be using Hero Points, he's opting against them for a bonus feat. I think he will likely regret that decision with what I have in store for them.

From what I'm looking at, this feat will allow at maximum a +4 AC bonus. +2 from a Heavy Shield, +1 from Shield Focus, and +1 from the 'offhand' enhancement bonus, once that shield is magic.

It will also, of course, allow him to be awesome. I've always wanted to make a two-shield fighter.. though I'd pick Dwarf, because Dwarf. :P

Why not a tower shield?

[Vicerious]

As a humorous aside, and given that the intention of the feat is obvious, it doesn't actually do anything as written.

When you get down to the nitty-gritty, a character with two shields would always apply both shield bonuses to his AC - the problem is that shield bonuses don't stack. Which the feat doesn't change.

Also, technically, magic shields don't provide enhancement bonuses to AC. They have an enhancement bonus added to the shield bonus they provide - a +2 heavy shield provides a +4 shield bonus to AC, not +2 shield and +2 enhancement.

Technically. :smalltongue:

[Crustypeanut]

Why not a tower shield?

Because that would be silly.


As a humorous aside, and given that the intention of the feat is obvious, it doesn't actually do anything as written.

When you get down to the nitty-gritty, a character with two shields would always apply both shield bonuses to his AC - the problem is that shield bonuses don't stack. Which the feat doesn't change.

Also, technically, magic shields don't provide enhancement bonuses to AC. They have an enhancement bonus added to the shield bonus they provide - a +2 heavy shield provides a +4 shield bonus to AC, not +2 shield and +2 enhancement.

Technically.

Eh its 3rd-party, they're not known for their great wording. A different feat made by these same guys allows you to rip someone's limb off as a combat maneuver if you've pinned them. But it does no damage. Its specifically says it. >.>

[SowZ]

Because that would be silly.



Eh its 3rd-party, they're not known for their great wording. A different feat made by these same guys allows you to rip someone's limb off as a combat maneuver if you've pinned them. But it does no damage. Its specifically says it. >.>

With Shield Master, I see no reason 'not' to use a tower shield. A +6 to AC, (with shield focus,) makes it a better fighting style which is needed since this is already an underpowered build. If it is silly, the DM should let the player refluff them as normal sized shields and use tower shield stats.

[Crustypeanut]

With Shield Master, I see no reason 'not' to use a tower shield. A +6 to AC, (with shield focus,) makes it a better fighting style which is needed since this is already an underpowered build. If it is silly, the DM should let the player refluff them as normal sized shields and use tower shield stats.

You can't shield bash with a tower shield.. and even if you could, thats an additional -2 on all attacks from using ONE shield. Two? I'd have to argue that would be -4. Therefore, until he gets Shield Master, he'll be taking a total of -8/-8 to his shield bash attacks if dual wielding, or -4 if attacking with one. Even if had Shield Master, it would still be -4/-4 or -4.

Yes, his AC would be far higher, but overall, it would not be effective.

[Vicerious]

With Shield Master, I see no reason 'not' to use a tower shield. A +6 to AC, (with shield focus,) makes it a better fighting style which is needed since this is already an underpowered build. If it is silly, the DM should let the player refluff them as normal sized shields and use tower shield stats.

You can't shield bash with a tower shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-tower).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Do you allow traits? There is both the armor expert trait as well as a regional one, the name of which I can never recall, either of which reduce armor check penalty by 1. Why do I mention this? Because mithral breastplate has a check penalty of exactly -1, so the trait lets you wear it with no issues, even if you're not actually proficient in it. Just pointing out that he does not need to be a fighter in order to wear the armor he wants to. Breastplate is fine for most people, and if he's not planning to go ranger, then he clearly is rocking a decent dex score to qualify for the TWF feats anyway, so it's not like he'd be getting more out of full plate or similar heavy armors.

He should really go ranger. At least for 6 levels. Grab Shield Slam and Shield Master. Then by all means head into Fighter if he wants. The early entry is just very nice.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You can't shield bash with a tower shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-tower).

IIRC, Tower Shield Specialist or some other Fighter archetype lets you bash with a tower shield, though it deals the same damage as a heavy shield, and I think the archetype does nothing to remove the -2 attack penalty, so it's still a terrible idea.

[Crustypeanut]

Do you allow traits? There is both the armor expert trait as well as a regional one, the name of which I can never recall, either of which reduce armor check penalty by 1. Why do I mention this? Because mithral breastplate has a check penalty of exactly -1, so the trait lets you wear it with no issues, even if you're not actually proficient in it. Just pointing out that he does not need to be a fighter in order to wear the armor he wants to. Breastplate is fine for most people, and if he's not planning to go ranger, then he clearly is rocking a decent dex score to qualify for the TWF feats anyway, so it's not like he'd be getting more out of full plate or similar heavy armors.

This particular campaign I won't be allowing traits, though I usually do.


He should really go ranger. At least for 6 levels. Grab Shield Slam and Shield Master. Then by all means head into Fighter if he wants. The early entry is just very nice.

He and I did not notice the "Weapon and Shield" style. He now agrees lol

[SowZ]

IIRC, Tower Shield Specialist or some other Fighter archetype lets you bash with a tower shield, though it deals the same damage as a heavy shield, and I think the archetype does nothing to remove the -2 attack penalty, so it's still a terrible idea.

Shield Master removes the penalty.


You can't shield bash with a tower shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-tower).

Even if you aren't a Specialist, Shield Master cancels out the improvised weapon penalty. Of course, you probably wouldn't be able to argue that it still counts as a shield bash. So never mind my insanity.

[panaikhan]

I had looked into a variant of this, using the "1H-weapon that is also a shield" (Klar?) for my barbarian.
My GM informed me that he would apply a 'piecemeal' style AC bonus (that is, both shields count together as one AC bonus, so any feats that boost shield AC apply only once).

[Chained Birds]

You know, you don't need TWF to TWF (In the beginning at least). You would take some massive penalties and all, but you can attack with your off-hand shield once without the extensive feat tree. Though I guess the whole point is to get as many attacks as possible through the TWF feat tree, having just 1 more attack at no penalty is good enough for me.

[Person_Man]

You'd be spending 3 Feats (Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Two Shield Fighting) to get pretty marginal benefits: maintain Shield AC when making a shield bash (ie, you don't have to buy an Animated Shield), 1 extra attack (while still taking some to-hit penalties from TWF), and +2ish exta AC (compared to someone with just one animated shield).

I really don't see how it can be abused. Even if you did something odd like wielding a Tower Shield and a Heavy Shield, and using the Heavy Shield and Armor Spikes or Unarmed Strike to attack (thus not taking on extra to-hit penalties from using two one-handed weapons) then benefits are pretty meh. It's a nice way for a low level Fighter/Ranger or whatnot to get high AC for that ECL. But it's not that big of a deal.

If you're interested in some hot Pathfinder shield action, I would suggest looking at the Paladin Sacred Shield Archetype (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/paladin.html). It improves your shield in a variety of ways. The coolest one replaces your Smite with a Bastion of Good: "Any attacks the target makes against allies within 10 feet of the paladin deal half damage. Attacks against the paladin deal full damage, but the paladin gains a deflection bonus to her AC equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) against attacks made by the target of the smite. This bonus increases..." The AC bonus increases, the range increases to 20 ft, you gain a Divine Bond (magic enhancements) for your shield, and you can grant Regeneration (ie, your allies can't be killed by the target enemy) as a capstone. I've seen a Sacred Shield Paladin in a level 20 game in a boss fight - he saved the lives of multiple party members, and it was literally the first time in 20+ years of gaming that I've seen a Paladin be useful at high levels.

[Chained Birds]

If you're interested in some hot Pathfinder shield action, I would suggest looking at the Paladin Sacred Shield Archetype (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/paladin.html). It improves your shield in a variety of ways. The coolest one replaces your Smite with a Bastion of Good: "Any attacks the target makes against allies within 10 feet of the paladin deal half damage. Attacks against the paladin deal full damage, but the paladin gains a deflection bonus to her AC equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) against attacks made by the target of the smite. This bonus increases..." The AC bonus increases, the range increases to 20 ft, you gain a Divine Bond (magic enhancements) for your shield, and you can grant Regeneration (ie, your allies can't be killed by the target enemy) as a capstone. I've seen a Sacred Shield Paladin in a level 20 game in a boss fight - he saved the lives of multiple party members, and it was literally the first time in 20+ years of gaming that I've seen a Paladin be useful at high levels.

A Paladin. Wielding a Shield. In a Lvl 20 game. Being USEFUL?!
*Slow Clap*
I am extremely impressed. You can give Pathfinder something, they made a pretty nice Paladin class.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't like Sacred Shield. Regular smite *already* gives you cha as a deflection bonus to AC (no level-based bonus, but that's not very much anyway), and regular smite just plain lets you kill the guy much much faster, which will likely "halve his damage output" just as well.

While I guess technically the divine bond replacement would allow you to enhance it as a weapon as well, the intent seems pretty clear they meant that you're adding armor enhancement bonus to it (since all the special properties are armor-based ones). This is a bad deal, since armor enhancements cost half what weapon enhancements do and it grants the same magnitude of bonus as normal divine bond does for a weapon. Shield Master would fix this, but as a Paladin, you're not getting Shield Master till level 11.

Improved Bastion.... Do I seriously need to put words here? Make your bastion aura 20 ft from 10 instead of....instantly turning every PC into a murder machine (mass smite evil is what you give up)? Horrible trade!

Perfect Bastion: This one is fairly mediocre for level 20 given it only applying against one guy's damage. But standard Paladin's capstone actually nerfs them by forcing them to banish evil outsiders instead of killing them with the smite (and automatically ends the smite whether you succeed in banishing the foe or not!), so I guess it's technically an improvement... But who plays at level 20?

It's a trap archetype, IMO. You lose far more than you gain.