Battle Jump + Improved Trip (and Others... MANY Others)

[Lonely Tylenol]

EDIT III: Removed (3.0/3.5/PF) from the title. This is referencing general rules, not anything specific to one of the settings (although some things work differently with all this, such as Pathfinder's cleave).

EDIT II: References included for everything. TL;DR at the top.

TL;DR: When is "a[n] attack" really just one attack, after all is said and done, and all abilities are applied to it?

I'm currently having a discussion with one of my players about a feat that still another player has considered taking (the Battle Jumper feat, Unapproachable East, p. 42), and we're having a disagreement that we are having trouble reconciling. Specifically, the problem is with this wording:


. . .If you hit, you can choose either to deal double damage with a melee weapon or natural attack or to attempt a trip attack. You are treated as one size category larger than normal if you try to trip your opponent with the battle jump. . . .

My friend is of the mind that, since the ability specifies that you choose at the beginning, you get either the trip bonus or the double damage. No feat or special ability (such as Improved Trip, SRD[/url\, or the wolf's Trip ability, [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm]also SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTrip)) changes this.

I am of a different mind: this was written without the wolf's Trip, or Improved Trip, in mind, and thus, when it discusses things from an "either/or" perspective, it's because, ordinarily (or with this feat, in a vacuum), you would only be able to do one or the other. Improved Trip (or a wolf's Trip ability) changes the parameters significantly--allowing you to gain an extra attack if your trip succeeds, or a trip attempt if your attack succeeds, respectively--and, in such a case, you should be permitted to gain the benefits of both.

Who is right? Why?

What about other actions? If one were to use Battle Jump, successfully drop an enemy, and then cleave into that enemy's buddy as per the Cleave feat (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#cleave), does the extra attack deal double damage? What about the Pounce special ability (of the Lion Totem Barbarian, Complete Champion, p. 46, or a jungle cat such as a lion, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lion.htm))--does each attack gain the double damage as such? (Conventional understanding says yes, but is this conventional understanding correct?)

What about maneuvers, such as Battle Leader's Charge (Tome of Battle, p. 90)? If one trips at the end of their charge, with the Improved Trip feat, does the trip at the tail end of this charge gain the +10 extra damage? What about a Cleave--if I cleave into an enemy, does the second attack gain the +10 damage? If Mountain Hammer (Tome of Battle, p. 84) were to be used instead of Battle Leader's Charge (not on a charge action, just for a regular attack), would the extra attack from Cleave gain the +2d6 and overcome DR as Mountain Hammer? Does the Pounce ability confer the extra damage to all available attacks? What if one were to use Battle Leader's Charge, Pounce into a large group of enemies, trip all of them with the various attacks you gain via Pounce, and then make attacks with Improved Trip - do all the attacks STILL gain the +10 damage? What if you drop an enemy with one of these trip-pounce-charge attacks--does the Cleave gain the damage bonus? How many of these attacks gain the +2 bonus for charging, and under what circumstances?

Consider, for reference, the distinction between True Strike (which applies to one attack roll, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm)) and, say, Psycarnum Blade (which applies to one attack, Magic of Incarnum, p. 40). Under which circumstances would the latter apply, but not the former (regarding Cleave)? What about the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling ability (regarding Cleave, Player's Handbook II, p. 20)?

Does the Psionic Shot line (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm)) apply equally to a single Eldritch Blast made normally as with two Eldritch Blasts made with Eldritch Sculptor (web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a))?

[rockdeworld]

While the wording is a little unclear, the feat references making a charge attack, then says "if you hit" on the charge attack.

After moving, you may make a single melee attack.
This attack, and this attack only, is the "charge attack." Pounce allows you a full attack on a charge, so each attack is still part of the charge, and thus would fall under the "if you hit" clause.
Improved Trip, on the other hand, gives you an extra attack if you successfully trip, but that attack is not part of the charge, even if you have Pounce. It's just an extra attack.

Side note: this feat was written with Improved Trip in mind - it's in Unapproachable East, which is a 3.5 book. It wasn't written for PF.

I assume you mention Cleave from PF, since Cleave in 3.5 only works when you drop an enemy. In that case, you can't Cleave with Battle Jump, because Cleave requires a standard action, and Battle Jump only gives you an attack.

Similarly, Battle Leader's Charge requires a full-round action, so can't be used, and (Edit: see my next post) Mountain Hammer requires a standard action, so can't be used.

True Strike and Psycarnum Blade both apply to PF Cleave, since it says you make an attack. The only time the latter would apply when the former doesn't is if you cast the former and then make 2 Cleave attacks, and want the bonus to apply to the second (because True Strike would have been expended on the first), or for some reason already have a massive Insight bonus to your attacks.

Neither 3.5 Cleave nor PF Cleave work with Arcane Channeling because the latter requires a standard action, until 13th level when it starts working with 3.5 cleave attacks made after a full-attack with arcane channeling.

And Psionic Shot does not apply to the second blast from Eldritch Sculptor because it requires you to expend your psionic focus and applies to 1 ranged attack, and AFAIK there is no way to regain your psionic focus while making a full-attack. If there is, then you can use it with both - you just have to expend your psionic focus twice.

[Lonely Tylenol]

While the wording is a little unclear, the feat references making a charge attack, then says "if you hit" on the charge attack.

This attack, and this attack only, is the "charge attack." Pounce allows you a full attack on a charge, so each attack is still part of the charge, and thus would fall under the "if you hit" clause.
Improved Trip, on the other hand, gives you an extra attack if you successfully trip, but that attack is not part of the charge, even if you have Pounce. It's just an extra attack.

Peculiar. Okay.


Side note: this feat was written with Improved Trip in mind - it's in Unapproachable East, which is a 3.5 book. It wasn't written for PF.

I'm not entirely convinced that it was written with Improved Trip in mind, even if Improved Trip existed concurrently. I don't think that it doesn't consider Improved Trip because Improved Trip doesn't exist (because it did); I think it doesn't consider Improved Trip because I think the writers seldom consider interactions between feats and abilities of different books.


I assume you mention Cleave from PF, since Cleave in 3.5 only works when you drop an enemy. In that case, you can't Cleave with Battle Jump, because Cleave requires a standard action, and Battle Jump only gives you an attack.

Similarly, Battle Leader's Charge requires a full-round action, so can't be used, and Mountain Hammer requires a standard action.

I'm sorry, I'll revise that: I originally meant for this to be all-inclusive, and involve the Magus' Spellstrike ability with Cleave, but Pathfinder does word it differently. This is a general rule discussion, not specific to a campaign or setting, but in this case, I mean 3.5 (which is the one that caused this confusion). I'll remove the (3.0/3.5/PF) from the heading.

How do all of these things interact with 3.5 Cleave?


True Strike and Psycarnum Blade both apply to PF Cleave, since it says you make an attack. The only time the latter would apply when the former doesn't is if you cast the former and then make 2 Cleave attacks, and want the bonus to apply to the second (because True Strike would have been expended on the first), or for some reason already have a massive Insight bonus to your attacks.

Again, I'd have to ask you to restate: with 3.5 Cleave?

Regarding True Strike: True Strike confers the benefit to a single attack roll. Doesn't Cleave's requiring a second attack roll basically negate its use with True Strike? If it's considered a separate attack roll, I wouldn't think True Strike applies to it.

[Mr Tumnus]

Just going to toss in my 2 cents.

Pathfinder does indeed have feats to which this question would apply.

Cleaving Finish and Improved Cleaving Finish.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure you can get a solid answer on this one. The Battle Jump feat is written so poorly that you're better off just deciding for yourselves how you want it to work.

[rockdeworld]

The Battle Jump feat is written so poorly that you're better off just deciding for yourselves how you want it to work.
+1. I'll try to provide a RAW answer.

Side note: Note that if you Battle Jump, you'll still be in the air when you make the charge attack.

First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
That said, you can't use the battle jump bonus with a cleave attack, for the same reason as improved trip above. Also worth noting: usually, abilities that give you bonuses for the rest of the round specifically mention that, eg. Pearl of Black Doubt (first example I came up with, not the best).

Also, edit to above: I misread Battle Jump as requiring a standard action. It doesn't, and can be used with Battle Leader's Charge. Still not PF Cleave or Mountain Hammer though.

A trip at the end of Battle Leader's Charge either would deal 10 extra damage (as it works on a successful attack, whether it's a damaging attack or a trip attack), or would not deal damage (if you use Curmudgeon's definition of extra that only applies to attacks that would deal damage in the first place, or if you use sane RAI). A cleave would not gain the 10 extra damage for the same reason as above. Pouncing would give each attack +10 damage, same reason as above.

3.5 Cleave can't be used with mountain hammer either, because Mountain Hammer only applies to a single melee attack. Pounce does not affect that, because Pounce has nothing whatever to do with cleaves (and you can't charge with Mountain Hammer).


What if one were to use Battle Leader's Charge, Pounce into a large group of enemies, trip all of them with the various attacks you gain via Pounce, and then make attacks with Improved Trip - do all the attacks STILL gain the +10 damage?
Same logic as above: either the trip attacks all gain +10 damage but the following attacks do not, or none of the attacks do. A cleave resulting from this would not gain the extra damage. The +2 bonus applies to the same attacks as the +10 damage.

You're completely right re: True Strike. It wouldn't apply on a cleave attack unless you cast it as a swift action after making the previous attack roll.

Psycarnum Blade can be saved for the cleave attack (but it wouldn't work twice, since you can only invest essentia in it 1/day, and must expend all of it on the attack).

A duskblade can't channel spells into a cleave attack until 13th level, when s/he can do it as a swift action.

[Mr Tumnus]

Side note: Note that if you Battle Jump, you'll still be in the air when you make the charge attack.

What?


Also, edit to above: I misread Battle Jump as requiring a standard action. It doesn't, and can be used with Battle Leader's Charge. Still not PF Cleave or Mountain Hammer though.

Yes, but what about 3.5 Cleave or Pathfinder Cleaving Finish?


Psycarnum Blade can be saved for the cleave attack (but it wouldn't work twice, since you can only invest essentia in it 1/day, and must expend all of it on the attack).

Reread Psycarnum Blade. You invest into it once per day to determine it's damage but activate it by expending your psionic focus. I don't believe you're incorrect in your interpretation of how it works regarding cleave but I just wanted to clear that up in case it's used in further discussion.

[Deophaun]

Improved Trip, on the other hand, gives you an extra attack if you successfully trip, but that attack is not part of the charge, even if you have Pounce. It's just an extra attack.
No.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
If you used improved trip to trip at the end of a charge, the melee attack you get at the end gains all the benefits of the charge.

[Lonely Tylenol]

That said, you can't use the battle jump bonus with a cleave attack, for the same reason as improved trip above. Also worth noting: usually, abilities that give you bonuses for the rest of the round specifically mention that, eg. Pearl of Black Doubt (first example I came up with, not the best).

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, and for the purpose of simplifying it, let's remove everything and get to the basics of a charge:

If you make a charge attack, and then drop somebody and then Cleave into another, is that cleave, or is it not, part of the same charge action (gaining the +2 bonus as a result)? Similarly, if you make a charge attack, and then choose instead to trip somebody (conferring the +2 bonus to the melee touch attack), and then get a free attack with Improved Trip, is that bonus attack, or is it not, part of the same charge action? Your answers seem to indicate "no". I think having that spelled out in literal terms would make it very easy to deal with Cleave and Improved Trip issues with much less RAW-friendly literature such as Battle Jump and Battle Leader's Charge, as there's nothing specific, to wit, in either of these that trumps the general rule.


Also, edit to above: I misread Battle Jump as requiring a standard action. It doesn't, and can be used with Battle Leader's Charge. Still not PF Cleave or Mountain Hammer though.

No, you make a charge action (which is a full-round action except in the case of partial charges, which is still its own standard action). That it doesn't interact with PF Cleave or Mountain Hammer (which are their own standard actions) was quite clear. I meant from the onset for this to refer to 3.5 Cleave--or, in Pathfinder terms, Cleaving Finish--which do not require their own actions, but can instead be affixed to existing standard and attack actions where appropriate. The understanding I'm gaining from this is that you can vanilla 3.5 Cleave, but it doesn't gain any extra bonuses. Correct?


A trip at the end of Battle Leader's Charge either would deal 10 extra damage (as it works on a successful attack, whether it's a damaging attack or a trip attack), or would not deal damage (if you use Curmudgeon's definition of extra that only applies to attacks that would deal damage in the first place, or if you use sane RAI). A cleave would not gain the 10 extra damage for the same reason as above. Pouncing would give each attack +10 damage, same reason as above.

OK. It makes me hate the RAW of Battle Leader's Charge a little bit more, but that makes sense from a rules perspective.


3.5 Cleave can't be used with mountain hammer either, because Mountain Hammer only applies to a single melee attack. Pounce does not affect that, because Pounce has nothing whatever to do with cleaves (and you can't charge with Mountain Hammer).

To clarify: When you say "3.5 Cleave can't be used with Mountain Hammer", do you mean that Mountain Hammer does not confer its benefits to the Cleave attack (meaning that a Cleave attack following a Mountain Hammer would just be an ordinary attack, without the +2d6 and ability to overcome DR), which is more or less what I expected, or that a Cleave attack cannot be made at all following a Mountain Hammer that drops a foe?


Same logic as above: either the trip attacks all gain +10 damage but the following attacks do not, or none of the attacks do. A cleave resulting from this would not gain the extra damage. The +2 bonus applies to the same attacks as the +10 damage.

I hate Battle Leader's Charge so much.

So very, very much.


Psycarnum Blade can be saved for the cleave attack (but it wouldn't work twice, since you can only invest essentia in it 1/day, and must expend all of it on the attack).

Actually, you regain the ability to use it every time you regain your psionic focus, although I totally understand: in order to gain your psionic focus on both the original attack and the cleave, you would have to regain your psionic focus between the two attacks (possible, if swift actions between the two are allowed, with a combination of the Psionic Meditation feat and the Hustle power, but not relevant to the rules discussion at hand).

EDIT:


No.

If you used improved trip to trip at the end of a charge, the melee attack you get at the end gains all the benefits of the charge.

OK, so actually I feel that this clears things up a lot. On a standard charge, you would still gain the +2 bonus to the attack on the trip attempt; on a Battle Leader's Charge, the trip confers no extra damage (there is no damage to affix the extra damage to), but the attack made after the trip still gains the +10 damage. That actually clarifies things greatly on the Improved Trip front.

But where does that leave Battle Jump? The feat explicitly says you choose between the two--but, with Improved Trip, you wouldn't have to (you could make a trip attempt as though you were one size category larger, then make the resulting attack at double damage, if both options were available). Does the RAW on this take precedent, meaning you absolutely cannot do both, or does Improved Trip modify this?

[Deophaun]

But where does that leave Battle Jump? The feat explicitly says you choose between the two--but, with Improved Trip, you wouldn't have to (you could make a trip attempt as though you were one size category larger, then make the resulting attack at double damage, if both options were available). Does the RAW on this take precedent, meaning you absolutely cannot do both, or does Improved Trip modify this?
RAW does take precedent, but that means that you can do both, because you choose after you have hit, not before you make the attack. Since the trip granted by Improved Trip occurs as if your trip attack never took place, it means that you get to choose again if you hit.

[Lonely Tylenol]

RAW does take precedent, but that means that you can do both, because you choose after you have hit, not before you make the attack. Since the trip granted by Improved Trip occurs as if your trip attack never took place, it means that you get to choose again if you hit.

That... That's like bad RAW correcting other bad RAW.

The mind boggles. :smalleek:

Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

That... That's like bad RAW correcting other bad RAW.

The mind boggles. :smalleek:

I've seen that in at least one other situation, actually. It was pretty amusing then too.

[rockdeworld]

If you used improved trip to trip at the end of a charge, the melee attack you get at the end gains all the benefits of the charge.
Good point, I was wrong. If you hadn't made the trip attack, you would still be charging, so charge bonuses apply to the post-trip attack.

@Mr Tumnus:You're right about Psycarnum Blade, I misread that. You can use it any time after you gain psionic focus (which makes it slightly better in my eyes, though maybe not enough to justify being a mindblade).

@Lonely_Tylenol: Just remember, if you're the DM and a player brings up that Battle Leader's Charge argument, that you can use Curmudgeon's interpretation of "extra damage".

Battle Jump damage doesn't apply to 3.5 Cleave, because a cleave is not part of the charge. (underlined to draw attention, this answers one of Lonely Tylenol's questions too) You get a cleave attack if you drop an enemy, but it doesn't get any bonuses. Similarly, you can cleave after using Mountain Hammer, but it doesn't get the bonuses of Mountain Hammer, because that also applies to a single attack.

[animewatcha]

I was under the impression that charge bonuses and penalties apply to all attacks made in round ( like AoOs and attacks made against you ).



I can see battle jump as being treated like True Strike or Improved Feint in the FAQ. Applies to first attack roll and thats it. A true strike into Improved Trip would have true strike apply for the touch attack, not the bonus. Improved Feint would apply to the touch attack, not the bonus.

[rockdeworld]

I was under the impression that charge bonuses and penalties apply to all attacks made in round ( like AoOs and attacks made against you ).
No, see the relevant text:

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
"the" means 1, so the bonus only applies to 1 attack roll. Even if you have iterative attacks, you only get to make 1 attack on a charge. The confusion arises from the fact that the charge rules don't take into account Pounce, which specifically lets you make extra attacks on a charge. Nowhere, not even under the Pounce rules, does it explain how the charge bonus interacts with other maneuvers (trip, bull rush, etc), despite the fact that all of them are in the same book, and that monsters that have Pounce can use those maneuvers. In that sense, as Lonely Tylenol said, those abilities/feats were made without each other in mind.

[animewatcha]

From googling, some boards say just the first one. Others say whole thing. Was able to bring up a customer service answer with the time of the post being 'still 3rd edition' times.

Last post.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?172098-A-few-questions-regarding-Charging-%28Pounce%29-and-multiple-attacks/page6

[rockdeworld]

the DM of your campaign would have to determine how he/she wants this to work.
Hah, classic.

At least it's nice to know that they intended Pounce to replace the single attack with all iterative attacks.