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chris_valera
2013-01-09, 08:59 PM
I'm working on the rules for Plaguebearers from Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. I got this far, but could use some help, as noted below.

d20 Plaguebearers

It is said that the fate of those who die of the foul disease Nurgle's Rot is to serve the Lord of Decay forever in the most disgusting form of a daemon called a Plaguebearer.

Plaguebearers are the rank and file of Nurgle's legions, but are more than a match for any man. These loathsome Lesser Daemons are crafted from the blighted soul-stuff of mortals who have been slain by Nurgle's Rot. A Plaguebearer carries the marks of Nurgle's Rot through eternity.

The Plaguebearer's body is swollen with contagion, and churning innards spill from tears in their rancid skin. What little of its skin that can be seen beneath the discharge of innumerable sores tinged with suppurant greens and vile browns. Huge black flies lay their filthy eggs on these foul daemons, and clumps of maggots crawl and clamber over their putrid hides, feeding on the putrescent matter that drips from their oozing sores. When the flied hatch, they swarm around the Plaguebear in a buzzing could of vileness and will turn upon and attack its enemies.

It has a single baleful eye and from its head sprouts a long horn. In its clawed hand the daemon carries a sword with a distorted barbed edge, dripping with noxious infection. This is the Plaguesword of Nurgle whose touch brings disease and death to mortal creatures.

STR 19
DEX 3
CON 15/19 (Mark of Nurgle)
INT 11
WIS 10
CHA 9

Will Save +9

FEAT: Plague Bearer
You carry a highly contagious disease to which you are immune, spreading disease and pestilence wherever you travel. You are a carrier for the disease Nurgle's Rot. You are immune to this particular disease. You carry this disease and may infect others.

FEAT: Mark of Nurgle
Gains +4 Con, becomes evil-aligned, can never be changed back, for any reason.

PLAGUESWORD
The Plaguesword drips with venemous slime A wound from this weapon will likely kill a mortal creature outright
Magical weapon, slashing, masterwork (+1 to hit) causes 1d10 points of damage.

(rules? cause some kind of aggravated damage, maybe 1 damage point caused becomes d3 to d6 damage caused, due to being racked by pain? Always causes max damage, since a tiny scratch hurts like a major blow? Addt'l chance of infection, catching Nurgle's Rot?)

UNNATURAL CLOUD OF FLIES
The Plaguebearer is surrounded by a black cloud of flies. When the Plaguebearers are fighting these evil buzzing creatures fly into the eyes and mouths of their enemies, clogging their ears and mouths, and crawling ip their nostrils. You suffer a -4 to hit penalty when attempting to attack a Plaguebearer. Models wearing comprehensive ear, nose and throat protection (ie, a space helmet still suffer this bonus becasue the cloud of flies still markes the target hard to hit.

NURGLE'S ROT
(Need rules for some kind of super-disease.)




DEMON TRAITS
Plaguebearers possess the following traits

- Immunity to electricity, poison, a disease-based effects of any kind.
- Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10.
- Summon (Sp): Many demons share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of demon summoned are noted in each monster description). Demons are often reluctant to use this power until in obvious peril or extreme circumstances.
- Telepathy.

Except where otherwise noted, Plaguebearers speak Abyssal and Infernal.

NURGLE MUTATIONS (optional)
Horn
You have a horn jutting from your forehead. A common Plaguebearer mutation.
You gain ??? (natural attack?)

Chitinous Skin
Chitinous plates that begin to grow on your flesh.
You gain a +1 natural armor bonus to Armor Class.

Single, large baleful eye
Most Nurgle Plaguebearers have this mutation
A common mutation among Nurgle. +2 to Spot checks.

Bloated Form
Your body is grossly bloated and your limbs thick with flesh.
You gain +6 hitpoints

Terrible Body Odour
You have a terrible body odour
You suffer a -2 Cha penalty.

Improved Natural Strength.
Your strength is greater than that of your peers.
You gain a +1 bonus to your Str score.

Poor Natural Strength.
Your strength is worse than that of your peers.
You suffer -1 penalty to your Str score.

Hearty Constitution.
You are well-built compared to your peers.
You gain a +2 bonus to your Con.

Fragile Constitution.
You are sickly and weak.
You suffer a -2 penalty to your Con.

Hardness
Your skin can deflect natural blows.
Non-magical attacks against the target do two less points of damage (e.g. a sword blow for five points of damage would actually inflict only three, unless it was a +1 sword - then it would do six points of damage).

Putrescent Exposed Flesh
Your skin is soft and tears easily.
Non-magical attacks against the target do two more points of damage than they would normally.

Blessed by the Gods of Chaos
You are blessed by the gods.
All rolls to hit are at +1.

Cursed by the Gods of Chaos
You are cursed by the gods.
All rolls to hit are at -1.

Fingers like Talons
The bones of your fingers have grown and hardened into talons.
You gain a natural weapons attack that deals 1d4 damage, plus your Strength modifier.

Teeth as Sharp as Needles
Your mouth is filled with hundreds of fine, pointed teeth.
You gain an additional bite attack that deals 1d3 damage, plus your Strength modifier.

Sharp Spines
Sharp taloned spines jut from your back
You gain an additional spine attack that deals d3+3 damage, plus your Strength modifier.

Bloated Form
Your body is grossly bloated and your limbs thick with flesh. You gain 5 wounds and the Sturdy
You gain +6 hitpoints, but may no longer run. Re-roll this mutation if you already have the Elongated Form or Withered Form mutations.

Withered Form
Your body is withered, your flesh hanging loosely from your bones.
The Plaguebearer suffers a -2 penalty to Con. Re-roll this mutation if you already have the Bloated Form mutation.

Hardy Form
Your body is withered, your flesh hanging loosely from your bones.
The Plaguebearer receives a +2 bonus to Con. Re-roll this mutation if you already have the Bloated Form mutation.

Strangely Jointed Limbs
Your limbs have extra joints that articulate differently to a normal human.
The Plaguebearer can squeeze into tight spaces and suffers no penalties to movement or attacks while doing so.

ShadowFireLance
2013-01-10, 12:10 AM
:smalleek::smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:
three months late...
Though, This looks fairly decent.

chris_valera
2013-01-10, 10:54 AM
:smalleek::smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:
three months late...
Though, This looks fairly decent.

Three months late?

--Chris

chris_valera
2013-01-10, 12:38 PM
Still working on the Plaguesword, got an idea for Nugle's Rot:

Nurgle's Rot (Su)

Nurgle's Rot is the most foul of the countless contagions which afflict mortal beings. It is Nurgle's gift to the mortal universe. It is completely incurable, highly infectious, has a very slow course that turns the infected into bloated, rotting, corpses, and worst of all it corrupts the souls of the infected into new Plaguebearers.

It is as much a spiritual plague as a physical one, as the souls of those infected are slowly leeched into Nurgle's realm, where they appear as warty seed pods growing from cracked branches of gloomy willows. Each pod swells and ripens as the plague destroys its host in the real world and the nascent Plaguebearer feeds upon the victim's dying energies. When fully mature, the podule drops and the newly created Plaguebearer tears himself free. A mortal who resists for a significant period produces an equally long incubation period resulting in a larger, tougher and more disgusting Daemonic Herald of Nurgle. Many sufferers undertake death quests in order to be killed and avoid this fate.

Supernatural disease—slam, Fortitude DC 20, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Unlike normal diseases, Nurgle Rot continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below.

Nurgle Rot is a magical and moral plague, not a natural disease. A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted with mummy rot must succeed on a DC 20 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.

To eliminate Nurgle's Rot, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC 20 caster level check for either spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the Nurgle's Rot can be magically cured as any normal disease.

An afflicted creature who dies of Nurgle's Rot is reborn in the Realm of Chaos as a Plaguebearer.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-10, 12:45 PM
Too fast an incubation period. It takes weeks, if not months, for Nurgle's rot to kill someone.

Ashtagon
2013-01-10, 05:40 PM
Let's see what wfrp 2e says...

My normal conversion factor is W x T / 15 = HD, making them 5 HD creatures. Outsiders, obviously.


They have claws, which basically means a decent natural attack.
They have cloud of flies. That's basically a -2 penalty on enemy melee attacks.
They have instability. I'm not sure how best to convert that unfeature, but I like the idea of it acting as some kind of free "turn undead" on any round in which you are winning against it.
They carry various diseases. Any combat in which they do damage against a hero should force a check for catching some random but mundane disease.
Their stream of corruption attack can be treated as acid energy type dealing some level-appropriate amount of damage.
They have no natural armour.


They don't carry plague swords of Nurgle, or any other magic item.

chris_valera
2013-01-11, 01:20 AM
Too fast an incubation period. It takes weeks, if not months, for Nurgle's rot to kill someone.

What would you change it to?


Let's see what wfrp 2e says...

My normal conversion factor is W x T / 15 = HD, making them 5 HD creatures. Outsiders, obviously.


They have claws, which basically means a decent natural attack.
They have cloud of flies. That's basically a -2 penalty on enemy melee attacks.
They have instability. I'm not sure how best to convert that unfeature, but I like the idea of it acting as some kind of free "turn undead" on any round in which you are winning against it.
They carry various diseases. Any combat in which they do damage against a hero should force a check for catching some random but mundane disease.
Their stream of corruption attack can be treated as acid energy type dealing some level-appropriate amount of damage.
They have no natural armour.


They don't carry plague swords of Nurgle, or any other magic item.

I have Cloud of Flies already in there, but as a -4 to hit, because it seems like these guys are the veterans of the veterans, when it comes to Nurgle.

Making a chance of catching a random disease seems overcomplicated. Maybe just a chance of catching Nurgle's Rot, since that's the main one?

Stream of Corruption attack? What does that do? Is that in WFRP? Can you type up a quick description of it?

Also, does WFRP say that they can or can not run, or that they chant anything that could drive a normal mad?

--Chris

chris_valera
2013-01-11, 01:58 AM
I checked Black Crusade (WFRP for 40K) and you're right, the Plaguesword isn't magical.

PLAGUE WEAPONS
Each of these corroded iron blades is coated with rust and numerous diseases, the better to spread Father Nurgle’s blessing across the galaxy. Only those pure in his sight such as his Plague Marines are granted such a weapon, and any lesser being suffering even the slightest wound is gifted with one of his innumerable creations such as Nurgle’s Rot or the Weeping Pox. The Toxic Quality on this weapon infl icts 1d5 Toughness Damage in addition to 1d10 damage. This is a one-handed melee weapon.

Ashtagon
2013-01-11, 03:05 AM
What would you change it to?

I have Cloud of Flies already in there, but as a -4 to hit, because it seems like these guys are the veterans of the veterans, when it comes to Nurgle.


The wfrp 2e cloud of flies description notes it as enemies getting -10% WS, which directly translates as -2 on d20 attack rolls.

Plaguebearers aren't "veterans of the veterans". They are Nurgle's basic daemonic footsoldier grunt troop. Of course, footsoldier grunt becomes a whole lot scarier when daemonic, but that's what the extra HD are for.



Making a chance of catching a random disease seems overcomplicated. Maybe just a chance of catching Nurgle's Rot, since that's the main one?


Nurgle's rot may be the Nurgle's favourite gift, but where wfrp 2e creatures carry it, it is specifically noted. A direct conversion would just have it be a random but mundane disease.

When converting, we shouldn't make them more powerful than they really are.



Stream of Corruption attack? What does that do? Is that in WFRP? Can you type up a quick description of it?


It's described as a stream of corruption, pus, bile, stomach juices, excreta, and other fun organic fluids. The damage is slightly lower than their usual melee attack. I am afb at the moment, so I can't check specific details, although it did appear to be a melee range only attack.

I'd probably make it a 2d6 acid damage touch attack that has a chance of inflicting the nauseated condition, usable 3/day. Exact numbers subject to adjustment.



Also, does WFRP say that they can or can not run, or that they chant anything that could drive a normal mad?

--Chris

wfrp 2e gives them no special rules concerning movement rates; they move like regular humans. They also have no special "chanting" rules. However, WFRP does have insanity rules, and simply seeing a daemon is normally good for gaining an insanity point or two.

WFB 3e/WFRP 1e Realm of Chaos supplement allowed for regiments (but not individuals) of plaguebearers (and regiments of other lesser daemons) to cast spells. That feature has been removed from later editions. It didn't really make much sense anyway.

Also, wfrp 2e grants them a whole set of abilities generically called "daemon abilities". It's kind of like a D&D creature type that grants a set of special abilities. I'll need to look up the details when I'm back with my books.

Their wfrp 2e direct offensive qualities are limited to melee (sword or claw) and stream of corruption.

By default, the sword is just a normal sword. I see no reason why individuals could not be granted magic items. You could probably even progress their HD to a small extent. I wouldn't give them class levels, although (beneficial) mutations would be appropriate.

Just thought of something...

Daemonic Instability: Daemons are made of the stuff of dreams and ideas, and are greatly influenced by the strength of feeling around them. Any enemy who hits them for physical damage with a melee attack automatically adds their Charisma bonus (if any) to damage. Note that this damage bonus does not apply to energy damage types.

chris_valera
2013-01-11, 04:59 PM
The wfrp 2e cloud of flies description notes it as enemies getting -10% WS, which directly translates as -2 on d20 attack rolls.

Okay, I buy this.


Plaguebearers aren't "veterans of the veterans". They are Nurgle's basic daemonic footsoldier grunt troop. Of course, footsoldier grunt becomes a whole lot scarier when daemonic, but that's what the extra HD are for.

The only reason I said it is because they have +1 S and +2 Toughness in 40K, and they're Ld10


Nurgle's rot may be the Nurgle's favourite gift, but where wfrp 2e creatures carry it, it is specifically noted. A direct conversion would just have it be a random but mundane disease.

I kinda buy it, but then you have to come up with a random chart of diseases.


I'd probably make it a 2d6 acid damage touch attack that has a chance of inflicting the nauseated condition, usable 3/day. Exact numbers subject to adjustment.

I'm fine with this, with adjustment.


WFRP does have insanity rules, and simply seeing a daemon is normally good for gaining an insanity point or two.

It's possible, but do people go crazy from seeing normal demons in D&D?


WFB 3e/WFRP 1e Realm of Chaos supplement allowed for regiments (but not individuals) of plaguebearers (and regiments of other lesser daemons) to cast spells. That feature has been removed from later editions. It didn't really make much sense anyway.

If it was a Plaguebearer vet, or character, I could see it.


By default, the sword is just a normal sword. I see no reason why individuals could not be granted magic items. You could probably even progress their HD to a small extent. I wouldn't give them class levels, although (beneficial) mutations would be appropriate.

Agreed.


Daemonic Instability: Daemons are made of the stuff of dreams and ideas, and are greatly influenced by the strength of feeling around them. Any enemy who hits them for physical damage with a melee attack automatically adds their Charisma bonus (if any) to damage. Note that this damage bonus does not apply to energy damage types.

Daemonic instability rules are going to be a pain, and what would you key it too? You can summon them, but the summon only stays good for xD6 hours/days, unless the area is infused with Chaos energy already?

Keep working though, I think you're on the right track.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com (http://www.chrisvalera.com)

Ashtagon
2013-01-11, 06:52 PM
Using my HD formula, I went through all the other WH daemons, to see how tough they are...

Khorne
Juggernaut (steed): 11 HD
Flesh hound (beast): 5 HD
Bloodletter (lesser): 4 HD
Bloodthirster (greater): 41 HD

Nurgle
Nurgling (imp): 2 HD
Beast of NUrgle (beast): 7 HD
Plaguebearer (lesser): 5 HD
Great unclean one (greater): 37 HD

Slaanesh
Fiend of Slaanesh (beast): 5 HD
Steed of Slaanesg (steed): 8 HD
Daemonette (lesser): 4 HD
Keeper of secrets (greater): 23 HD

Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch (steed): 7 HD
Flamer (beast): 4 HD
Screamer (beast): 7 HD
Pink horror (lesser): 4 HD
Lord of change (greater): 17 HD

Undivided
Chaos fury (lesser): 4 HD
Daemonic Mount (steed): 13 HD

chris_valera
2013-01-12, 12:12 PM
Using my HD formula, I went through all the other WH daemons, to see how tough they are...

This is great work, but it seems a little high to me. A Nurgling has 2 HD? It's a dimunutive creature?

I don't know, maybe it's just me.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com (http://www.chrisvalera.com)

Ashtagon
2013-01-14, 05:41 AM
This is great work, but it seems a little high to me. A Nurgling has 2 HD? It's a dimunutive creature?

I don't know, maybe it's just me.


Re-reading my WH books, I just noticed that I counted the Toughness as two points higher than I should have. Thta would reduce all the HD numbers a bit.

WH daemons have a feature that grants an effective +2 T against non-magical attacks (misreading this feature is what caused the error I noted above). That converts to DR 10/magic. Notably, WH daemons do not receive the standard energy resistance suite of D&D demons, devils, or other outsiders. As magically-infused creatures, they are not especially protected against magical attacks.

The standard WH daemon feature suite includes:


DR 10/magic
Immune to non-magical poison and disease.
Immune to non-lethal damage.
Immune to environmental heat and cold effects. Does not need to breathe.
Instability: Enemies add their Charisma bonus (if any) to melee damage rolls.

Erik Vale
2013-01-14, 06:21 AM
It's possible, but do people go crazy from seeing normal demons in D&D?



Not a big one for conversions [But knowing some DnD and WHF/40K], I think there is a book that introduces madness and corruption rules.
Mindlessly grabbing a book name from ones off the top of my head I would say Lords of Madness, but thats just from name and I don't think it does.

Edit: Sudden thought, Book of Vile Darkness I think has them.

Vaz
2013-01-14, 07:42 AM
Re-reading my WH books, I just noticed that I counted the Toughness as two points higher than I should have. Thta would reduce all the HD numbers a bit.

WH daemons have a feature that grants an effective +2 T against non-magical attacks (misreading this feature is what caused the error I noted above). That converts to DR 10/magic. Notably, WH daemons do not receive the standard energy resistance suite of D&D demons, devils, or other outsiders. As magically-infused creatures, they are not especially protected against magical attacks.

The standard WH daemon feature suite includes:


DR 10/magic
Immune to non-magical poison and disease.
Immune to non-lethal damage.
Immune to environmental heat and cold effects. Does not need to breathe.
Instability: Enemies add their Charisma bonus (if any) to melee damage rolls.


Wait, what? What is this +2 Toughness thing?

They have Regeneration which in the current edition of the rule is lost in favour of their Ward Save (Regeneration being 33% for any none-flaming attack to be ignored, increasing to 50% when they are around a Herald).

Their Ward Save functions against EVERYTHING, except I think only a single weapon in the entire game, or Statistic-Test or Die spells.

As for Instability, that just makes them near useless. Any old Bard or Diplomancer Character can just roll up and stick them with their rapier for a Straight +Stupid damage modifier. Personally, it should be something like if a Daemon is reduced to 75% of its normal maximum HP, each time it takes damage, it has a percentage chance equal to the damage dealt to it to Instantly teleport back to its native plane, where it is under the effects of a Dimensional Anchor spell until it fully heals to its normal maximum hit points. If it is reduced to -1 HP or less, the Daemon instantly teleports back to its native plane, even if it's dead. If the Daemon is dead, it is instantly Resurrected. If it is dying, it is instantly stabilized. While in it's native plane under the effects of Dimensional Anchor, the Daemon heals a number of Hit Points equal to its Hit Dice + Favour Level with its god (I.e Nurgling, +1, Plaguebearer +2, Herald +3, Daemon Prince +4, Greater Daemon +5, Exalted Greater Daemon, Daemon Primarch +6) per day.

For example; A 200 HP Greater Daemon of Nurgle with 20 Hit Dice is reduced to 50 HP. The following round it takes 43 Damage off a single attack. Immediately after rolling for damage, the Daemon must roll a D100, needing to beat 43. Having done so, the next attack it takes 8 Damage, reducing it to -1 HP. It instantly teleports back to the Realm of Chaos, where each day, it recovers 25 Hit Points. As it is at -1 HP, it is under the effects of Dimensional Anchor for a minimum of 9 Days; provided of course it's not attacked by other Daemons in that time.

Just a simple mechanism, but just goes to show exactly how hard some of the (admittedly 40K) characters were able to hit them to banish Daemon's for a Hundred Year and a Day. Considering that he is likely an Epic Character with around 40 Character Hit Dice, and +6 Favour Healing, that's around 1.7 Million Damage that was done with Aurelian's last strike, not including natural healing.

Ashtagon
2013-01-14, 08:47 AM
Wait, what? What is this +2 Toughness thing?


It's from wfrp 2e.



They have Regeneration which in the current edition of the rule is lost in favour of their Ward Save (Regeneration being 33% for any none-flaming attack to be ignored, increasing to 50% when they are around a Herald).

Their Ward Save functions against EVERYTHING, except I think only a single weapon in the entire game, or Statistic-Test or Die spells.


wfrp 2e gives them neither ward saves (which don't even exist in that rules set) nor any kind of regeneration. I'm fairly certain regeneration in wfb 3e was only a standard feature for trolls, not for any kind of daemon.


As for Instability, that just makes them near useless. Any old Bard or Diplomancer Character can just roll up and stick them with their rapier for a Straight +Stupid damage modifier.

Disagree. For a serious Charisma-focused build, I could see 18 (start) +4 (level up bonus) +2 (race) +5 (item) +5 (another item which stacks) = 34, which represents a +12 damage bonus. Frankly, if you've spent that much effort optimising Charisma, you could easily have spent it on damage more effectively. It's a weakness, but not a particularly big one.

Now, if Charisma bonus was also made to apply to attack rolls as well, that'd be a different matter.


Personally, it should be something like if a Daemon is reduced to 75% of its normal maximum HP, each time it takes damage, it has a percentage chance equal to the damage dealt to it to Instantly teleport back to its native plane, where it is under the effects of a Dimensional Anchor spell until it fully heals to its normal maximum hit points. If it is reduced to -1 HP or less, the Daemon instantly teleports back to its native plane, even if it's dead. If the Daemon is dead, it is instantly Resurrected. If it is dying, it is instantly stabilized. While in it's native plane under the effects of Dimensional Anchor, the Daemon heals a number of Hit Points equal to its Hit Dice + Favour Level with its god (I.e Nurgling, +1, Plaguebearer +2, Herald +3, Daemon Prince +4, Greater Daemon +5, Exalted Greater Daemon, Daemon Primarch +6) per day.

For example; A 200 HP Greater Daemon of Nurgle with 20 Hit Dice is reduced to 50 HP. The following round it takes 43 Damage off a single attack. Immediately after rolling for damage, the Daemon must roll a D100, needing to beat 43. Having done so, the next attack it takes 8 Damage, reducing it to -1 HP. It instantly teleports back to the Realm of Chaos, where each day, it recovers 25 Hit Points. As it is at -1 HP, it is under the effects of Dimensional Anchor for a minimum of 9 Days; provided of course it's not attacked by other Daemons in that time.

Just a simple mechanism, but just goes to show exactly how hard some of the (admittedly 40K) characters were able to hit them to banish Daemon's for a Hundred Year and a Day. Considering that he is likely an Epic Character with around 40 Character Hit Dice, and +6 Favour Healing, that's around 1.7 Million Damage that was done with Aurelian's last strike, not including natural healing.

A strict literal interpretation of most WH rules sets would see round-by-round comparisons of damage inflicted vs. damage dealt, which isn't something that ever features in d20 rules, making it complex by virtue of being unique.

Your mechanic also introduces what effectively amounts to a "save or die" mechanic (while the daemon is still in positive hp), which is something that frankly, makes for boring fights.

And since no one ever deals 1.7 million damage in d20, that's just a case of over9000ism; such a long-term banishment is a plot point effect, not a combat mechanic.

I'd also be wary of any WH fluff text. WH fluff is notorious for its "point-of-view propaganda". If an Imperial text says a daemon was banished for a hundred years, you can be sure it'll be back next Sunday. Likewise, an orc warboss defeating the Grand Army of the Empire is more likely just routing the village militia.

Vaz
2013-01-14, 09:06 AM
Ahh, I see, Rules System disconnect; I was coming from a WHFB background! Feel free to ignore my drivel then!

I agree on Over 9000ism. As for the Propaganda though; not entirely. It was a hundred years and a day for Angron to return.

In regard's to a Save or Die - it's hardly too bad a deal though. You've got to remove the majority of the creature's health, followed by dealing damage again in a significant number to actually make it viable, at which point you might as well just have carried on to deal more damage to it anyway to take it down to Negative's.

Still, this isn't my homebrew, so I won't press the point!

chris_valera
2013-01-15, 10:23 PM
I like the idea of them getting instability when the lose a good chunk of their hitpoints.

You don't need to work in Dimensional anchor, just state that they go back to their home realm. It happens automatically, they can be banished if someone is religious enough.

I like the idea of them having DR 10 to magic. Not sure how accurate it is.

IMO, I'd like the daemons to "feel" like WFB demons, not D&D demons, but that's just me. Just say they "work" differently than other demons.

Not sure how I feel about save or die, probably against, though it depends.

What are the daemon's updated hit dice, just for comparison?

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Ashtagon
2013-01-16, 03:00 AM
@Erik Vale

Madness/corruption rules are introduced in d20 Call of Cthulhu (and included in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm)). Another, different, system (also included in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm)) is introduced in Oriental Adventures, and later refined in Book of Vile Darkness and again in Heroes of Horror. The Heroes of Horror version would be the best place to start from if you want to brew something as gloriously detailed as the WH insanity and mutation rules.

re: instability:

Giving them a random chance of instantly going poof when hit and "bloodied" is, from the PC perspective, little different from giving them slightly fewer hp in the first place. Simply giving them fewer hp also saves the GM a few die rolls (no "save or poof" rolls) making the combat run faster, and allows the GM to better predict how long the fight will last, useful for planning encounters. A random "poof" roll doesn't really do anything for game play. You may as well say when they reach 0 hp, they go unstable and poof back to the realm of chaos, there to reform for however long. Whether they truly die or are merely banished for a long time is a story element rather than a combat statistic (and GMs should feel free to change it to suit the needs of the story from encounter to encounter. WH Chaos is like that.)

By making them weaker against high-Charisma opponents, I was trying to make something that captures the flavour of what WH daemons are all about, without unbalancing them.

Some WH undead also suffer from an instability rule which is mechanically identical to the daemon instability (at least in older versions of the game).



@chris_valera

Just to be clear, DR 10/magic means they have DR 10 against everything that is NOT a magical attack. So a fireball and a +1 sword will both pass right through it, but a non-magical sword will be subjected to the DR.

I'll need to check back on the HD formula. I think it would leave plaguebearers (and most lesser daemons) as 3 HD outsiders.