[PF] Party of Wizards

[Karoht]

What it says on the tin.
For an upcoming campaign, I may suggest that the party all play Wizards. Just to see what it is like. The rule is that each Wizard must ban one spell school.

So I put it to you Playground, if you were to build a party of 4 Wizards (starting at level 1, most likely level 3 by the end of the first session, most likely progressing to 10 only) what 4 Wizards would you build?
Discuss things like feats, archetypes, etc. Consider commenting on what 4 wizards worth of spellbooks and daily spell preparation might look like?

Any potential issues or hurdles to overcome? And fun surprises to be thrown at the party? How do you challenge 4+ Tier 1 players?

[sambouchah]

What it says on the tin.
For an upcoming campaign, I may suggest that the party all play Wizards. Just to see what it is like. The rule is that each Wizard must ban one spell school.

So I put it to you Playground, if you were to build a party of 4 Wizards (starting at level 1, most likely level 3 by the end of the first session, most likely progressing to 10 only) what 4 Wizards would you build?
Discuss things like feats, archetypes, etc. Consider commenting on what 4 wizards worth of spellbooks and daily spell preparation might look like?

Any potential issues or hurdles to overcome? And fun surprises to be thrown at the party? How do you challenge 4+ Tier 1 players?

In respects to creation of wizards I have never played PF. But I have played many wizards/heavy spellcasters in 3.5 and I never feel challenged. I always love fighting another spellcaster or fighting a scary aberrant with a spell resistance or a high will save.

[Morbis Meh]

What it says on the tin.
For an upcoming campaign, I may suggest that the party all play Wizards. Just to see what it is like. The rule is that each Wizard must ban one spell school.

So I put it to you Playground, if you were to build a party of 4 Wizards (starting at level 1, most likely level 3 by the end of the first session, most likely progressing to 10 only) what 4 Wizards would you build?
Discuss things like feats, archetypes, etc. Consider commenting on what 4 wizards worth of spellbooks and daily spell preparation might look like?

Any potential issues or hurdles to overcome? And fun surprises to be thrown at the party? How do you challenge 4+ Tier 1 players?

Party of 4: Conjuration Specialist, Transmutation Specialist, Illusion Specialist and a Evocation or Necromancy Specialist (The cruromancer archetype is very appealing)

As for hurdles... Magic immune enemies (at low levels not a problem) and TRAPS, do not be cruel and put traps anywhere since you are forcing them to not have the ability to look for traps. This happened in a game i was playing, everything was going fine until the GM threw a spiked pit trap that insta killed my wizard. He tried to Gm fiat it away but i left the game becuase that is really just an unfair move; one of our players kind of had trapfinding (you were allowed to multiclass after 3 levels of wizard) but his perception was so low that he would literally had to roll a 19 to spot to very lethal trap.


Sorry for the rant just don't be that DM (from what I have seen you don't seem like the type) don't use traps lol

[Story]

I'd probably get an Animal Companion on one of them to tank level 1. And maybe Arcane Disciple on one so they can handle healing before they can afford items. Of course I have no actual experience with playing an all wizard party.

Edit: Oops, I was thinking of 3.5. I'm not sure how applicable this is to Pathfinder.

[Bonzai]

We actually just finished a similar campaign. Each player had to be a Master specialist wizard from a different school. It worked out very well, and was a ton of fun. Our party make up:

Conjurer (Me): Battle field control and back up damage. Summons, offensive and defensive teleportation, AoE control like Evards, and some AoE damage to help out.

Evoker: Blaster. He dropped down the direct and area damage and was the primary damage dealer.

Abjurer: Counter Magic/debuffer. This player shut down enemy casters and removed enemy buffs. A very important, if under sung role.

Transmuter: Buffer/Problem Solver. The transmuter dipped into warweaver and handled the party buffs. In addition he was our primary utility caster.

Typical encounter would start with me attempting to bottle neck the enemy and keep them at arms length. This was typically done with either summons or evards+Caustic mire. A favorite tactic was to lay down evards and caustic mire, then cast dimensional shuffle on a groups of NPC's and drop them into them. Then the Evoker was free to tee off and fire ball the hell out of them as they were grappled and taking steady damage over time. The transmuter/warweaver would buff us and attempt to solve problems as they occured, while the Abjurer would lock down casters and get rid of problematic magic that the opponent had.

Over all this group worked extremely well together. However there are more than one way to do it. Enchantment, Necromancy, and Illusion could all take the place oc conjuration to a certain extent. Abjurers also are decent buffers, and diviners are just handy to have around.

I had a party that I was DM'ing for that was also pretty insane.

Beguiler/fate spinner: Battle field control through illusions and enchantment, and took luck out of the equasion. Oh, and also took over the rouge's standard role.

Psion/wizard/theurge: He was designated problem solver (also the transmuter in the above party). He had such a wide spell/power set that he could come up with a solution to what the party encountered. Having a player devoted to counter the DM is a strong tactic, lol.

Warmage... he was the weak link of the group, but he could deal steady damage.

Dread Necromancer: Insane save or die spells, plus potent undead minions.

More or less the same thing. A nice balance of utility, control, and damage.

[Eldariel]

What it says on the tin.
For an upcoming campaign, I may suggest that the party all play Wizards. Just to see what it is like. The rule is that each Wizard must ban one spell school.

So I put it to you Playground, if you were to build a party of 4 Wizards (starting at level 1, most likely level 3 by the end of the first session, most likely progressing to 10 only) what 4 Wizards would you build?
Discuss things like feats, archetypes, etc. Consider commenting on what 4 wizards worth of spellbooks and daily spell preparation might look like?

Any potential issues or hurdles to overcome? And fun surprises to be thrown at the party? How do you challenge 4+ Tier 1 players?

Well, clearly you want a Conjurer and a Diviner or two. Maybe an Illusionist and a Necromancer; they have some decent class abilities. Prob is tho, nothing really stacks up to Divination specialties (even Conjurer is a distant second) and there's no way to share Prescience or Forewarned with the party. Sad though it may be, it might just be optimal to have 4 Diviners since the personal benefits are massive.

Other than that though, you want a split of roles to optimize the feats for each job. I think only one wants to be a combat summoner with Augment Summoning for instance; others can do summoning too, but they should stick to utility summons. Only one, if any, should use Extend Spell to extend buffs since it's unnecessary to have everybody extending everything. Rod is also an option here. Few controllers, maybe one tries to optimize blasting (you can get decent numbers even in PF, though nothing compared to 3.5) with Wayang Spellhunter & Magical Lineage and metamagic stacking.

[Karoht]

Solid ideas coming out. Keep them coming!

I'm considering DM'ing this, but a friend of mine might run it instead. At which point, I am so far most interested in playing an Illusion or Abjuration focused Wizard. Something like that.

[kestrel404]

Instead of 4 wizards, why not just 4 (arcane) casters?

Class options include:
Wizard - Can do all the usual wizardy stuff
Sorceror - When well built, can do MOST of what a wizard does, plus can either Gish (Aberrant/Demony bloodlines) or Tank (Sylvan bloodline, for animal companion)
Bard - Can act as party healer/buffer. Does almost as well in ths role as a cleric, plus acts as face, maybe even rogue.
Summoner - Tank, either through his eidolon/summons or using synthesist and doing it himself. Can also double as skillmonkey, since he gets not only his own skill set but also his eidolon's (and 1EP for +8 to a skill is NICE).
Magus - Beatstick. He wacks things better than a fighter.

[doko239]

You could always go full Captain Planet and use four Elementalist Wizards :smallbiggrin:

[Blisstake]

My ideal party...

Thassilonian Conjuration specialist. Just does wave after wave of summons. Banned Schools (forced): Evocation and Illusion

Diviner controller. Wins initiative and uses the first turn to set up the fight with control spells. Also the scout. Opposition Schools: Necromany and Abjuration

Evoker (generation subschool) sweeper. Deals with large groups of enemies with blast spells. Can deal all right damage against a single enemy if it's resistant to save or dies. Opposition Schools: Enchantment, Divination

Void (elemental school) setter upper. Sets everyone else up for victory, and should have the highest survivability. Uses dispel magic against mages (to remove buffs *or* to counterspell) and uses Reveal Weakness if a save or die is going to be cast by a friend. Opposition School: Fire

Fairly balanced party that could be fun to play. The races of the wizards doesn't really matter much, but it would be useful to have a Samsaran with mystic past life to get some witch healing/revival spells for emergencies.

[Karoht]

The All Wizard party is mostly a bit of a challenge to the playgroup. Naturally we aren't going to force anyone to play something they don't want to play. Mostly, the party members think Wizards are sucky, "Wizards are not Tier 1" was actually used as an arguement, they don't like prepared casting, they don't see Wizards as being able to fill certain rolls, etc. The aim is to have the party experience what wizards are all about, in a campaign oriented towards wizards. Allowing some exceptions would be missing the point, mostly.
Again, I want to emphasize that the idea isn't to force them to like wizards. It's to show them what makes wizards fun, what makes them interesting to role play, what makes them a part of the world.

If I'm running it, the idea in mind is basically the A-Team but with Wizards. Very open story and objectives, but not quite a sandbox. Here's a problem. Solve it. Any complaint that you do not have the tools to solve the problem will be met with 'you are all wizards.'
Thematic/Aestheic reasons as well.

Though I may allow one Cleric. Or a Druid. Maybe. But that player really has to impress upon me why they fit and why I should allow it.

[kestrel404]

Ah, I see. Well, it's simple enough to clue someone in on the awesome that is wizard.

Conjuration specialist - The skill monkey. He always has exactly the right summon for the job.
Necromancy specialist - The healer. He goes about his job in a roundabout fashion, but that doesn't prevent him from being wickedly effective.
Transmutation specialist - The Tank. He can turn into whatever would be best to fight as. Almost as versatile as the skill monkey out of combat as well.
Illusion specialist - The controller & blaster. His shadowcrafted illusions are often as real as anything else the party is throwing around, and he can confuse and demoralize the enemy with 1st level spells.

[Karoht]

Void Wizard is officially awesome!

Well, they all are. But Void Wizard is now really calling to me.
Elemental Schools work kind of like domains right? Am I reading that correctly? Just with the downside of a single opposed school? Elemental Schools are pretty amazing. I'm glad I read into them a bit more, I totally figured they would be less interesting.

[Eldariel]

Ah, I see. Well, it's simple enough to clue someone in on the awesome that is wizard.

Conjuration specialist - The skill monkey. He always has exactly the right summon for the job.
Necromancy specialist - The healer. He goes about his job in a roundabout fashion, but that doesn't prevent him from being wickedly effective.
Transmutation specialist - The Tank. He can turn into whatever would be best to fight as. Almost as versatile as the skill monkey out of combat as well.
Illusion specialist - The controller & blaster. His shadowcrafted illusions are often as real as anything else the party is throwing around, and he can confuse and demoralize the enemy with 1st level spells.

Conjurers are actually the best Wizard healers in PF (and some of the best healers in the game). Summon Azatas and Agathions (or Angels later on) and you get Spell-Likes or actual Spell Cures and Lay on Hands and such in spades. UMD can help too, especially early on. I've meant to do a little essay on the subject; in 3.5 Summon Nature's Ally was a great curing tool thanks to Unicorns but in PF not only does it lack any good healing summons, Summon Monster also completely overtakes it in this role. In effect, Wizards (and Summoners) are actually some of the best party healers in PF.

Well, you don't really need to be a Conjurer; you just need Summons. Conjuration benefits for summoning are really mediocre (until level 20 anyways, which is kinda far away). If you take Spell Perfection in your highest level Summon Monster and retrain it (provided DM allows) you'll be fine tho you still can't get Standard Action Summon Monster outside 3.5 material (Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants)).

[AttilaTheGeek]

I might suggest having one of them take the Eldritch Knight prestige class. They'd wear full plate and a tower shield, and Still Spell all their spells, and it would work great at low levels if you can get your GM to lower the arbitrarily high "must be able to cast 3rd level spells" requirement to 1st or 2nd level spells.

[Bonzai]

The All Wizard party is mostly a bit of a challenge to the playgroup. Naturally we aren't going to force anyone to play something they don't want to play. Mostly, the party members think Wizards are sucky, "Wizards are not Tier 1" was actually used as an arguement, they don't like prepared casting, they don't see Wizards as being able to fill certain rolls, etc. The aim is to have the party experience what wizards are all about, in a campaign oriented towards wizards. Allowing some exceptions would be missing the point, mostly.
Again, I want to emphasize that the idea isn't to force them to like wizards. It's to show them what makes wizards fun, what makes them interesting to role play, what makes them a part of the world.

If I'm running it, the idea in mind is basically the A-Team but with Wizards. Very open story and objectives, but not quite a sandbox. Here's a problem. Solve it. Any complaint that you do not have the tools to solve the problem will be met with 'you are all wizards.'
Thematic/Aestheic reasons as well.

Though I may allow one Cleric. Or a Druid. Maybe. But that player really has to impress upon me why they fit and why I should allow it.

Yeah, we just finished something similar. We affectionally reffered to is as our "Hoggwarts" campaign.

How we started was we each picked a school or a theme that we liked, and then went all out with it. We were then encouraged to look at the world through the perspective of such a wizard, understand their philosophy and approach to the world, and role play accordingly.

Example, I played a Focused Specialist Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Thaumaturgist 3 (Banned schools: Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation). Originally I was going to go malconvoker, but went Thaumaturgist instead. Role play wise, I asked myself what makes a master of Conjuration tick. The answer? Instant gratification! If a conjurer wants to travel some where, a few words and a hand gesture latter and he is there. He wants something? BAMF! it's in his hand. He needs allies to deal with a threat? Presto!, and they are summoned to his beck and call and compelled to obey him. Conjuration is powerful, but not subtle. This leads to a character who is used to having his will fullfilled instantly. Haughty, impatient, and perhaps more than a little head strong, though in not such a way as to be disruptive to the party. It was a blast to play!

My Second choice would have been a Diviner 5/Divine Oracle10/Fate Spinner 5. With the interpretation that is was his foreknowledge of the future that let him spin fate. A character that cannot be suprised, and always knows more than he lets on. The DM had already set his sights on a Diviner NPC, so Conjurer it was.

Party member likes melee? How about Transmuter/ master transmografist? He and his familiars can polymorhp into a pair of nasty beasties and melee as usual. Or go the Abjurer/Abjurant champion and be a gish. Wizards really can do anything.... eventually.

[Blisstake]

Void Wizard is officially awesome!

Well, they all are. But Void Wizard is now really calling to me.
Elemental Schools work kind of like domains right? Am I reading that correctly? Just with the downside of a single opposed school? Elemental Schools are pretty amazing. I'm glad I read into them a bit more, I totally figured they would be less interesting.

Yeah sort of. You don't get nearly as many spells to pick from for your extra slot, but you have a very small opposed list to compensate. For most of them, the granted abilities are garbage, but Void School has a very nice selection of bth spells and granted abilities.

[avr]

If someone's playing an blaster-type, they might like to play a spellslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/spellslinger). I wouldn't normally recommend banning as many schools as that requires but with 3 other wizards within spitting distance it seems like a viable option.

[Eldariel]

I might suggest having one of them take the Eldritch Knight prestige class. They'd wear full plate and a tower shield, and Still Spell all their spells, and it would work great at low levels if you can get your GM to lower the arbitrarily high "must be able to cast 3rd level spells" requirement to 1st or 2nd level spells.

The advantages of Fullplate and Tower Shield over Mage Armor + Dex and Shield-spell aren't sufficient to warrant basically losing one level of spells or 2 casting levels (casting all spells as 1 level higher).

Eldritch Knight would be viable with e.g. the 3.5 Militia-feat to enter losing only 1 caster level but without that I think it kinda defeats the purpose of an all-Wizard party. You can certainly make do without, anyways. Low level nuking save-or-loses can really wreak havoc on the enemy force so much so that they can all be disabled before it's over and the mop-up can be done with Crossbows, Alchemist's Fires, or even a Wizard with a sword if he has a decent strength; BAB isn't a big deal before level 6, really, as the differences aren't that major.