What to do when another player get's it wrong?

[Trasilor]

Much like the thread indicates, what should I do if another player inadvertently makes a mistake, but the GM is OK with it?

Here is the situation. I recently joined a group and one of the existing players is “cheating”. Now I put this in quotes because the player was given incorrect advice for his character. All the characters in the campaign are supposed to be level 5. Everybody is playing a LA 0 character except for one. He is playing a Lizardfolk warblade.

Now, he first started to make some mistakes when he readied the same maneuver multiple times (like a wizard would with a spell). I thought this odd, but wasn’t about to bring it up in the middle of combat. Then, as the session ended, our GM awarded XP and we all gained enough for next level. Imagine my surprise when he says “sweet, now I am 5th level [warblade].”

To which I inquired as to how, given the two lizard fold hit-die? At this point, another, more experienced player said “that’s how it works; the LA adjustment is for the hit-dice”. I tried to engage in a conversation, but it was very late and I had to get home.

I don’t want to be “rules lawyer” but it just irks me that this player is two levels higher than mine. I know the DM has reviewed every character, so I must assume that he approved this character and is OK with these additional levels or is unfamiliar with the rules.

Any thoughts on how I should proceed would be much appreciated

TL:DR Another player has mistakenly broken an obvious rule (LA and monstrous hit die). How do I bring up the subject without sounding like a rules lawyer?

[Yora]

I always find it the easiest to point out that something is handled differently than in the books and ask if the GM wants to make it a houserule or correct it.

[LTwerewolf]

Just ask about the house rule, and get them to clarify. This lets them know it's not the actual rule, while getting the idea from them what exactly it entails.

If that is the case though, go ahead and play a dragonkin, because lol 7 hit dice for 2 LA.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, in the case of Lizardfolk it works; LA +1 is about all the race is worth if you get the HD for free. It's not going to break any games. Maybe just confirm with the DM he's using a houserule or whatever and it should be good to go.

[Ranting Fool]

Honestly, in the case of Lizardfolk it works; LA +1 is about all the race is worth if you get the HD for free. It's not going to break any games. Maybe just confirm with the DM he's using a houserule or whatever and it should be good to go.

That or the fact that a lot of people get the ECL stuff confused and don't realize that Racial Hit Dice and LA stack together. I still forget things like that when looking through monsters. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Trasilor]

Thanks for the responses :smallbiggrin:

@Yora I honestly believe the GM doesn't know. So far he has been a fantastic story teller, but I know he is unfamiliar with the game, including Tome of Battle (he said as much). Perhaps I can broach the subject of house rules by asking about the multiple readied maneuvers as house rule and then bring up all other house rules.

@LTwerewolf haha, good call. Alas I am liking my current character.

@Eldariel this is true. I feel bad for the poor lizardfolk out there, a +1 LA for their class? Not really fair.

@Ranting Fool yeah that seems to be true. Especially when you consider the "knowledgeable" player is the one making the mistake.

I guess I was hoping for a way to talk to the new player and educate him without sounding like brainy smurf. I might be partially miffed b/c the GM said no to my Dragonborn of Bahamut build.

[Ketiara]

It sounds like no one is deliberately cheating and just got stuff mixed up. You should be able to correct people if they have got something wrong.

But when you start doing this, expect them to come to you for rule clarification.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I always find it the easiest to point out that something is handled differently than in the books and ask if the GM wants to make it a houserule or correct it.

This is what I do.

[Trasilor]

@Ketiara I wouldn't mind that. Of course, when I am unsure of anything I usually say something like, "hmm, I can't recall right now, let me check my books and get back to you" at which point I come here and ask the forum for the right answer :smalltongue:

The more I think about, more likely I am to take the player aside and educate him what the rules actually are so he knows. If he wants to talk to the GM about it, then that's his choice.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[demigodus]

eh, if the rule is in effect, might I suggest a Juvenile Copper Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#copperDragon)?

That is only LA+4, so grab 1 level of sorcerer. So you cast as a level 4 sorcerer, have comparable melee prowess to a level 14 barbarian and can fly. At level 5, before magic items.

Or bring this up as the example for why LA is CLEARLY not meant to stack this way with RHD. After all, you are taking a race from core, and based on those rules it is blatantly broken straight out of the box, without any feat/item/template/class optimization.

[danzibr]

How well do you know these people? I play with my family or close friends so I can be really blunt. I don't like to lawyer and I let inconsequential things slide, but that can be a big mistake.

Really, I think it's important that everyone knows the correct rules. You're not playing D&D otherwise (at least not 3.5), but a houseruled version of it. Now houserules are fine, we all use them to some extent, but not knowing it's a houserule goes against my lawyering nature.

I'd say definitely bring it up, but be polite about it.

[Phaederkiel]

well, lizardfolk give a BIG bonus to natural armor and have multiple natural attacks. Which can be powerful, depending on the group makeup.

I for example downsized the lizardfolk in my campaign, because I did not want someone with 3 attacks per round beside a bard who gives plus 3 to damage and hit at lvl 4. Nor someone with a 24 AC when the rest of the group has 16, 13 and 12 AC. You either the other all the time, or you cannot hit the lizard.

( I took the racial HD away, took away the attacks, reduced the natural armor to 3 and gave the lizard a swim speed. Lizard light is good, but not overpowering. And does not bore the player because he has no features :)


so to stop derailing the thread: Talk to them, and tell them that you do not care. And do not care. It is a game in which a good player with a weak character is easily ten times as mighty as a bad player with a good character.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Does the player actually *have* the lizardfolk HD?

Or does he just have the awesome stats and nat armor and attacks, etc...?

If it's the latter, then he's just really unbalanced for 1 LA but he's not actually 2 levels over you. At least, not literally in hte sense of number of HD. It sounds like neither player nor DM realized he needed to take the racial HD and replaced them w/ class levels like you do for 1 HD humanoids.

[Trasilor]

@demigodus Alas I already made my character, but it would have been fun :smallbiggrin:

@danzibr I don't know them that well actually. I have only just started playing with them. However, I do know that the person playing the Lizardfolk is relatively new (if not completely new) to D&D. But a good suggestion nonetheless.

@Phaederkiel I like your suggestion of "Lizard light" I might steal that :smallamused:. But you are correct, it is only a game. The educator in me just wants the player to learn the rules correctly rather than the ten year-old in me who want to shout "NUH-UH, that's not how it works". :smalltongue:

@StreamOfTheSky Yes he does. DM gave us max HP at lvl 5 and I learned his CON (18) and I know his total HP (88 = 12*4 + 8*2 + 24)

Thoughts on if I should bring it up to just the player, the player and DM, or just the DM?

[Gavinfoxx]

"Hey guys, I just wanted to lest you know... lots of races in the game aren't really designed for use as player races unless you know a LOT of rules about how racial hit dice and level adjustment and stuff like that work. So there are some incorrect rules being used in this game. These could be houseruled, but that would cause some pretty big ripple effects. If people want to use monster-like races, it's a pretty good idea to use monster-like races that don't have level adjustment or racial hit dice... and people have put together huge lists of all the races in the game that can be used like the player's handbook races, without understanding the 'weird' stuff. It's really useful, you can come up with any racial-type character concept with these. I printed out the list, look."

And then you print out a formatted version of this list:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YFJtHhsf33EJ:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1281.0

[Trasilor]

@Gavinfoxx I see where you are coming from (i.e. give authority to a third party rather than make it sound like I am exerting authority). Unfortunately, that would work best during creation not in the middle of the game.

Also, the DM has an approved list, which includes lizardfolk.

I guess I was looking more on ways to bring up the subject without sounding like a jerk (not that any of you are :smallamused:)

point of note: I disagree that there are "a LOT" of rules concerning LA and HD. The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm)points this out quite simply:

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Effectively there is one rule. Add LA and racial hit dice to determine effective character level.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why don't you read the Monster Handbook and then give it to the GM?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928

[demigodus]

Probably bring this up to the DM first.

I would say something like "I noticed we were using different rules from the official ones concerning Racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment. I was just wondering what the specifics of your house rule was."

I was initially going to write "I was wondering if this was a house rule, or you just weren't familiar with the rules", but that can come off in a bad way.

If the DM isn't aware that this is a house rule, he will likely ask about it.

Possibly bring in a few examples (preferably rather iconic ones from the srd), that clearly show the rules create horrible results and ask about those.

If this is an actual house rule, just learn what it is, and probably roll with it for this game? At least you know that if you die, you can come back a tad bit op.

Once you have spoken to the DM (make sure you never phrase it as an attack), then you might discuss it with a player. This is an understandable mistake after all, so try not to be offensive with him either.

[Trasilor]

@ Gavinfoxx Ok, so there are lots of rules concerning monsters as player (yes I did read the handbook, it was very complete). I was speaking specifically about LA and Racial Hit Dice.

@ demigodus Nicely put. I think I will actually try this. Considering we almost died in the last session, I can phrase it towords a future character.