Tiefling Rogue help.

[Codyage]

Hello! I apologize if this is the wrong forum, but I was wondering if I could get some advice.

EDIT:In a couple of weeks a friend of mine is going to be running a 3.5 game, he gave us a list of creatures with different classes as "suggestions" and I decided to pick the only rogue.

I am currently a level 4 tiefling rogue and I have bought off the LA.


I was considering on grabbing weapon finesse and two weapon fighting. So I get the dexterity to my attack and can dual wield. But the issue I am having with this is how do I go off pulling sneak attacks?

I have to make a full round attack to use both weapons, but by the time I walk up and get ready to do it, they will have their DEX bonus back and I won't get any sneak attack dice.

We can use players handbook and two of any other kind of book. I was hoping if there are any good tips I could get on how to be getting the most out of my Sneak Attacks, or if perhaps I should be building my rogue in another manner.

Besides flanking, flat footed, and marbles, do other methods exist that can optimize my fighting? I am on the quest for items right now, but I have no confirmation on those.

[Diarmuid]

First, it's Rogue not Rouge. Rouge is a type of makeup.

As to your question about sneak attacking, it depends if you're going to be working alone or along with the other party members. If with the others, then you can get yourself into flanking which also allows for sneak attacking.

[Codyage]

First, it's Rogue not Rouge. Rouge is a type of makeup.

As to your question about sneak attacking, it depends if you're going to be working alone or along with the other party members. If with the others, then you can get yourself into flanking which also allows for sneak attacking.

Thank you for that, just went and tried to fix the spelling error.

Also as I said, my party may not help me, as from what I have been told, I am going to be forced into the party as a prisoner. Which means I am their responsibility, so they may have me in chains and on a leash, making sure I can't break away from the group. They might not help me, with flanking because they are paranoid I may back stab them.

[ahenobarbi]

So I am forced to be a Chaotic Evil Tiefling rogue, who MUST go pure rogue, and is in jail.

Remember you are not forced to play the character. If you want to play it then go and have fun. But if don't want to play this character you should talk to your DM about it and pick a character that will be more fun (or change something about character...).

Now if you want to play this I think that you should ask your DM to play lesser Tiefling (or even better buy of LA). You might be interesetd in reading The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233).

[hymer]

I don't know how confrontational you'd like to be. Here's some things you can consider, though:

Telling the DM that if s/he wants a character played in a particular way, s/he should make that character an NPC.
Telling the DM that you'd like to have options and be able to play, rather than be subject to DM and other player arbitrariness.
Telling the DM that you'd like to be part of the PC group rather than in opposition to it.

Either way, as long as you're fighting the same people as the rest of the group, they should be helping you with flanking.

[ahenobarbi]

They might not help me, with flanking because they are paranoid I may back stab them.

Flanking means you and your ally are on opposite sides of an enemy so you can not stab them (but you can stab enemy). And it helps both you and the ally who is on the opposite side of the enemy.

[Keltaris]

Thank you for that, just went and tried to fix the spelling error.

Also as I said, my party may not help me, as from what I have been told, I am going to be forced into the party as a prisoner. Which means I am their responsibility, so they may have me in chains and on a leash, making sure I can't break away from the group. They might not help me, with flanking because they are paranoid I may back stab them.

I don't understand.

If you're their prisoner, why should you be fighting for them?

And also... they don't trust you enough to flank for you but they would let you carry a weapon?

:smallconfused:

[Eldest]

I don't know how confrontational you'd like to be. Here's some things you can consider, though:

Telling the DM that if s/he wants a character played in a particular way, he should make that character an NPC.
Telling the DM that you'd like to have options and be able to play, rather than be subject to DM and other player arbitrariness.
Telling the DM that you'd like to be part of the PC group rather than in opposition to it.

Either way, as long as you're fighting the same people as the rest of the group, they should be helping you with flanking.

Normally I stay out of threads like this, but I'll jump in for this one. If it's your character, you should be able to play it your way. The above guy has it right, and I'd like to add one thing to it, because it seems the DM thinks this.

Telling the DM that being a member of the Rogue class does not mean you are a thief, a scoundrel, or anything similar about your character.

All it defines is your capabilities, not who you are. And even those capabilities are flexible, what with feats, cross class skills, and races. And multiclassing (which I know he stated he did not like, but tough nuggets. It's your character, you can do with him/her as you like.) is another option to change the character.

[Codyage]

Remember you are not forced to play the character. If you want to play it then go and have fun. But if don't want to play this character you should talk to your DM about it and pick a character that will be more fun (or change something about character...).

Now if you want to play this I think that you should ask your DM to play lesser Tiefling (or even better buy of LA). You might be interesetd in reading The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233).

I have tried to come to a compromise with him. He said he would take off the LA if he has no resistances and no darkness ability. He hasn't responded back about the Lesser Tiefling part yet. I guess it depends do I want Darkness and resistances, or to be an outsider.

The thing is, it is the only rogue from the list of what we can pick. He says they are just suggestions but he told me specifically that he has to be played pure rogue, and anything else won't fit his back story. Which is orphan on the streets. He said what happened was I stole money from the treasury and got arrested.

I don't know how big the back story is apart from having no parents, and trying to rob a treasury. He may have a certain idea in mind for my character, but I am not sure. It goes on the edge of spoiling the plot, which I don't know about.


Flanking means you and your ally are on opposite sides of an enemy so you can not stab them (but you can stab enemy). And it helps both you and the ally who is on the opposite side of the enemy.

I meant more of they just won't trust me in general. They are probably paranoid I am going to kill them in their sleep, and having me die in combat makes it look like I died on the quest, and they no longer have to worry about me. From what I have been told, the courts are going to force me to join them, or be beheaded. They don't actually need me, it is just the courts are trying to give me a second chance.


I don't understand.

If you're their prisoner, why should you be fighting for them?

And also... they don't trust you enough to flank for you but they would let you carry a weapon?

:smallconfused:

Because if I don't I am going to be beheaded. The fictional law in the world is going to put me in their group as a way to earn my freedom. If I choose not to take it, it is beheading.

Chances are I may not get a weapon. Depending on how much they trust me, it can be from being hands tied and forced to disarm traps as we move. To being in combat with the team weapons and all. It is going to depend on how my party will act towards a chaotic evil thief, and if they want to give me a chance with a weapon, or just gag and tie me up and use me when necessary.

EDIT:To be fair, the party members are my real life friends, so they probably aren't going to tie me up. But the npc in party may be trying to insert the idea of the bound and gagged rogue. Chances are my friends are going to let me be an ordinary member of the party though. Albeit very cautious of me.

[Codyage]

But this isn't the place for talking about how to play a character and what control the DM has. So to get back on topic I am fine with whatever, I am more curious on what I will be able to do.

Besides flanking, and maybe using my darkness ability, are there any good ideas, feats, or maybe items I can use to try and get a SA off? I would try and look for a ring of invisibility, but are their any other things I may want?

[Gullara]

There is a feat in Drow and the Underdark that allows you to pierce magical darkness, so I suppose that would allow you to better take advantage of Darkness. But that's still pretty limited times per day obviously.

I think there are also feats in there to allow you to get additional uses of Darkness, but that's rather a lot of feats simply to make use of Darkness of all things.

[Keltaris]

Marbles and the feat Darkstalker can come in handy.

[Codyage]

I may pick up Darkstalker just because that feat is too good to pass up if I am trying to hide.

Thank you for introducing me to marbles. I now know the power, of balance checks and little spheres.

[Juntao112]

Can you use the Assassin prestige class? Because if so, it gets the Alter Self spell. I notice your DM is not taking away your Outsider type, which opens the door to some interesting possibilities.

[Codyage]

Can you use the Assassin prestige class? Because if so, it gets the Alter Self spell. I notice your DM is not taking away your Outsider type, which opens the door to some interesting possibilities.

I may or may not be able to use it. It depends if my DM will say it is all right. As far as I know I have to be pure rogue until it starts, but he may let me go into it when I level up. Assassin is probably the only prestige class that he may let me use, because we brought it up before.

I just need to check the prerequisites for it. Any certain level I should stop leveling it at?

[Juntao112]

Level 10 might not offer much - I think it just gives you a bonus to saves against poison, so unless there's a 4th level assassin spell you really want to know, I'd skip it.

[Codyage]

I might try and go into 3rd level. The 2nd level spells look pretty decent, and the Sneak Attack Damage along with the Uncanny Dodge should be a good combination.

I am guessing the 0 on the table for spells per day will change if I get bonus spells thanks to my INT score?

[ahenobarbi]

I am guessing the 0 on the table for spells per day will change if I get bonus spells thanks to my INT score?

Yes , that's it.

[Curmudgeon]

Your DM is putting constraints on your character without giving anything in return, and that's not fair. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for some other compensation if you're not going to have the normal freedom of a PC.

Yes, go for a Lesser Tiefling instead of the Outsider race. You're already being held, so vulnerability to Hold Person won't matter much. :smallbiggrin: Plus you won't have to retain 1 HD of Outsider, because 1 HD Humanoids are allowed to exchange that hit die for their first class level.

What stat system does your game use? If it's point buy, ask for a significantly higher number of points. If it's rolling, ask for bonuses (like +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, and +6; or +2, +2, +2, +4, +4, and +4) to be added after you roll.

Alternatively, you could ask for something that will help you out but is otherwise undetectable. A Silthilar Flexible Spine graft (Lords of Madness, page 216) gives you some useful bonuses, but it's ridiculously overpriced. Getting that wouldn't be nearly as useful to you as the normal freedom to choose your equipment, but it would still be somewhat helpful.

Are you playing in Forgotten Realms? If so, ask for the Dark Creature Template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152. That's well worth +1 level adjustment. (The non-Faerun version in Tome of Magic is much poorer.) Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight will let you make good use of Hide, though not in daylight for this one, sadly. :smallsigh: When people can't see you, you get +2 to attack them and they're denied their DEX bonus to AC — meaning you can also add sneak attack damage. With no reliable flanking partner you'll need to fend for yourself.

Rogues typically rely on equipment to accomplish things. As a prisoner you'll be denied most equipment, which means the DM should compensate you for that in some other way. Does your group use traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) and flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)? If so, use them. If not, demand that the DM make a special exception for your character. I like the Quick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) trait, and Vulnerable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#vulnerable) flaw for most Rogue characters. Get the maximum of 2 flaws, because you'll really need the flexibility to choose feats that will improve your situation. Traits and flaws give you tradeoffs rather than outright bonuses, but the normal flexibility in building your character has been taken away from you. This returns some of what was stolen by your DM.

There is one piece of equipment you can reasonably ask for: a Possum Pouch (Complete Adventurer, pages 134-135). If your character had paid an NPC to cast Nystul's Magic Aura on this ahead of being captured (an inexpensive bit of insurance) it should have gone undetected. In it you can stash a few small items like masterwork thieves' tools. If you want to push your luck, ask for a Monk's Belt to be tucked in there as well. It's just a bit of rope to keep your trousers from falling down, right? :smallwink:

What feats should you choose to leverage that flexibility? For a smart Rogue, I'd go with Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52) to make all Knowledge skills class skills for you, and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, page 60) to make Knowledge checks related to creature types give you bonuses to attack and damage any such creatures. Maximize the 6 Knowledge skills related to creature types and you'll get bonuses to attack and damage every creature in the game. Assuming you start at INT 14 using point buy, your Tiefling (racial +2 to INT) will have at least +10 to those Knowledge checks at level 4 (+11 to a couple of them thanks to Education). That means you'll be getting Knowledge checks in the 11-31 range, earning you about +2 to everything (+2.05 on average). You'll also get the usual benefits of Knowledge checks in identifying vulnerabilities, if your checks are high enough.

A normal Rogue can't withstand much damage anyway, and you'll be without armor entirely. Because you'll be trivially easy to damage if hit, assume any efforts at making your CON score high to get more HP is wasted effort; concentrate on not getting targeted in the first place instead. As long as it's not daylight, Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight will let you (try to) Hide every time you move. So while you're traveling, you're constantly using "take 10" with Hide. Unless enemies have really high Spot scores (enough to also overcome distance penalties), they're not going to be able to target you.

Maximize the following skills:
Hide (don't be seen!)
Knowledge: Arcana (Knowledge Devotion bonus vs. constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Knowledge: Dungeoneering (Knowledge Devotion bonus vs. aberrations, oozes)
Knowledge: Local (Knowledge Devotion bonus vs. humanoids)
Knowledge: Nature (Knowledge Devotion bonus vs. animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin)
Knowledge: Religion (Knowledge Devotion bonus vs. undead)
Knowledge: The planes (Knowledge Devotion bonus vs. outsiders, elementals)
Spot (don't get surprised!)
Tumble (don't provoke AoOs)

There are some contingent decisions you'll need to make. If the DM allows the Silthilar Flexible Spine graft, your nonstandard flexible body allows you to take the Extended Reach feat (Savage Species, page 34). Having an extra 5' reach would be a good tactical advantage. If the DM allows you the covert Monk's Belt, take Improved Unarmed Strike so you can actually use that unarmed damage. (Normally this would be a poor choice, since you can buy the feat in the form of Bracers of Striking for only 1,310 gp. However, you've got to get by without obvious equipment.) In the best possible case, the combination of both of these will let you punch or kick enemies from 10' away, and do it again with AoOs if they try to close to an adjacent square.

This is a really tough situation to be in. Be forthright about asking for something back in return for helping your DM tell the story he wants.

[Codyage]

We tend to usually play in some made up world the DM wants. No real setting, which is why almost all source books are allowed. It saves the trouble of specific things, and makes anything able to happen.

The group HAS used traits and flaws before, but I do not know if he will allow the character to have any.

I am unsure on the exact details on my imprisonment, but since he said I was found stealing from the treasury, I am guessing high security prison, stripped of all my belongings. Since I was caught inside, I doubt I was able to spend any of the money I had stolen.

I am iffy if he will let me take the Education feat, since I lived on the streets with no parents and no money. Chances are he will be "Your character never really went to school, he learned everything on the streets. He would have no way of learning all this information."

How do I use Tumble to not get AoO? Do I use it as a standard action to roll out of the space?

These are the stats I currently have, with my regular bonuses, as a 4th level tiefling. This is if he doesn't approve of the lesser tiefling, and I cant remove the LA.

Strength 14
Dexterity 21
Constitution 17
Intelligence19
Wisdom14
Charisma13

Also thank you all for the help so far. I really do appreciate it, not many people would go into such time and detail for this.

[Zale]

Do you enjoy this style of play, that the DM decides who your character is?

Because from what you said, I think it's better to simply let your DM decide everything. I have a feeling that any suggestions that don't fit his "Concept" of your character will simply be shot down.

[Juntao112]

Just curious, but what do you think would happen if you decided to fight with spear and sneak attack people with it instead of dual wielding daggers for combat?

[Curmudgeon]

I am iffy if he will let me take the Education feat, since I lived on the streets with no parents and no money. Chances are he will be "Your character never really went to school, he learned everything on the streets. He would have no way of learning all this information."
If it's simply a matter of studying different types of creatures you've run across, the character could be an autodidact (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/autodidact?s=t). This would mean you couldn't benefit from the other Knowledge skills like Architecture and engineering, or Nobility and royalty. However, studying creature types is all that's necessary for Knowledge Devotion.

[Andezzar]

Just a question are the other characters forced to play a character of the DM's choosing as well? If not, ask him, why only you.

While sneak attack damage is nice, a single attack (if you want to stay mobile, to avoid attacks) probably won't drop an opponent. You may want to look into abilities that inflict additional penalties with a sneak attack, like Staggering Strike (CA 112) or hamstring.

Not to forget Craven+Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, because Immunity to mind-affecting=/=Immunity to fear.

If you expect the opposition to be sneak immune, try to get Penetrating Strike, or a weapon with a wand chamber and a wand of golem/plant/grave strike.

Using a spear means no Weapon finesse, fewer attacks and no benefit. use short swords or daggers or as a true tiefling kukris.

[Codyage]

He just said no to Lesser Tiefling "Because this isn't Faerun." Now I am asking him what world it is, because this is the first time I have heard this excuse from him. He says we are doing "Classic D&D World." Not Forgotten Relams, Ebberon or any other place.

No, him picking everything I absolutely hate, and if it continues I simply won't play. I seem to be the only one with the premade character/npc/story route. Which I am currently talking with him about. I am waiting to see how this goes, and how much freedom I actually have.

Out of everyone in our D&D group, he is the only one who frequently DM's and has some experience. The other people in the group have only been DM once or twice, and he wanted to do a game.

I am will see what I can do on getting the Knowledge Devotion, Assassin prestiege class, and other stuff.

I am the only one he is "controlling" at the moment. Every other character seems to be able to choose their back story and what not. Mine is the only one with a definite set alignment, class, and back story.

It was the only rogue from the list of people, so it is either a rogue less party or one with a rogue. I would rather us have one then be without one.

[Curmudgeon]

He says we are doing "Classic D&D World." Not Forgotten Relams, Ebberon or any other place.
A lot of the material packaged in those settings books isn't setting-specific. The Education feat in Eberron Campaign Setting has no Eberron region requirements; it's clearly marked as a [General] feat.

Also "Classic D&D World" is known as Greyhawk, which has its own setting particulars.

[Andezzar]

Out of everyone in our D&D group, he is the only one who frequently DM's and has some experience. The other people in the group have only been DM once or twice, and he wanted to do a game.Make a character as per his wishes, and take the beheading at the first session. Then offer to make your own campaign. Or do exactly what the other characters seem to fear. Betray them and murder them in their sleep, sell their bodies and souls to some fiend for a change of character levels race and alignment, not necessarily in that order. If that character is supposed to be a bloody bastard, be a bloody bastard.


I am the only one he is "controlling" at the moment. Every other character seems to be able to choose their back story and what not. Mine is the only one with a definite set alignment, class, and back story.Strongly suggest to your DM to make him an NPC.


It was the only rogue from the list of people, so it is either a rogue less party or one with a rogue. I would rather us have one then be without one.Make a wizard with roguish spells. Make a Batman Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002). Now the other characters surely have something to fear.

[Codyage]

A lot of the material packaged in those settings books isn't setting-specific. The Education feat in Eberron Campaign Setting has no Eberron region requirements; it's clearly marked as a [General] feat.

Also "Classic D&D World" is known as Greyhawk, which has its own setting particulars.

I was wondering what he meant by "Classic D&D World." Thank you for clearing that up.

The problem is though I don't WANT to gut them and kill them in their sleep. But the general impression they are getting from my back story is that will most likely be what I do. I would rather try not to end it in a blood shed matter for my allies, yet stay true to the CE alignment. I want to see if I can redeem the tiefling rouge, because of his upbringing that did this to him, but if the DM says "No, you are still a blood thirsty killer." That is when I will proceed to quit.

I have been through worst campaigns and restrictions. I will adapt to this one. I just want to be able to do the best I can with what I am given.

Edit: I would go something else, but the only other role the party hasn't filled yet is Cleric, which my friends know me for doing so often. The worst part is The only Cleric seems to have a level adjustment, and the way he is labelled, has me to believe that he has a back story as well and will be limited.

IF my suspicion is true, then I decided do I want to be a restricted Cleric, or a restricted rogue? I opted for Rogue instead.

[Andezzar]

The problem is though I don't WANT to gut them and kill them in their sleep. But the general impression they are getting from my back story is that will most likely be what I do. I would rather try not to end it in a blood shed matter for my allies, yet stay true to the CE alignment. I want to see if I can redeem the tiefling rouge, because of his upbringing that did this to him, but if the DM says "No, you are still a blood thirsty killer." That is when I will proceed to quit.Ah, OK. To paraphrase R.A. Salvatore:"the drow language has no word for 'friend' the closest approximation is 'acquaintances that are too valuable to kill right now." You don't have to be antagonistic to the other PCs to be chaotic evil, but if they are your gaolers that is a very bad starting point.


Edit: I would go something else, but the only other role the party hasn't filled yet is Cleric, which my friends know me for doing so often. The worst part is The only Cleric seems to have a level adjustment, and the way he is labelled, has me to believe that he has a back story as well and will be limited. Do you mean role or class. You can have more than one member of a certain class (especially wizard and cleric) and still fill different roles. Even if the roles were the same that need not be (too) bad Bruenor, Drizzt, and Wulfgar all fill the role of BSF.

[Codyage]

So as we were talking the DM told me that when we would start, he would tell me my characters motivation. I then proceeded to type up an incredibly long paragraph about my thoughts on this decision and suffice to say he apologized and I now control the rogue!

I may be limited in what items I can buy same like everyone else, but I am no longer a chaotic evil man. I changed to chaotic neutral and for the sake of peace decided to start off in prison anyways, but now I have my own back story for him.

I was able to get a flaw, for -1 to ac I get a feat which is cool. He also agreed in me being able to buy off the LA. I still start at level 4, but I have no level adjustment.

So far I have TWF Weapon Finesse, and one extra Feat I can use. I also discovered that the campaign is set in a cold environment. So any tips for that? He said their will be lots of snow and possibly visual impairment for both sides.

[StreamOfTheSky]

"Visual impairment" will bone you, hard. But there's nothing you'll be able to do about it....

If you can get rid of the feats and go an archery route, you could attempt to eventually get a Seeking bow in order to not have to deal with concealment and thus not be screwed out of sneak attack. Beyond that, I don't know how you could cope with it for melee.

In any case.... you want craven, darkstalker, and staggering strike (latter only if going melee) at some point. And the Dungeonscape variant to lose trap sense for half SA damage against foes immune to SA is vitally important.

You say the party needs a rogue, but....they really don't. Detect Magic can find magical traps and dispel magic can suppress them. Many mechanical traps can be found and disabled by anyone. Don't just play a rogue because you think one is needed for trap duty.

[Curmudgeon]

The problem is though I don't WANT to gut them and kill them in their sleep. But the general impression they are getting from my back story is that will most likely be what I do. I would rather try not to end it in a blood shed matter for my allies, yet stay true to the CE alignment.
You need to be Chaotic and Evil. Who said that means you need to kill everyone around you?

One battle you kill every enemy you see. The next battle you let your companions do all the fighting while you concentrate on looting the bodies. The time after that you just scare away the enemies because that way it's easier to take all the stuff they're forced to abandon. Plenty Chaotic, plenty Evil. At no time do you try to kill your companions.

You're Chaotic and Evil. You're not Chaotic and Evil and Stupid. You keep a working relationship with these people because it makes your life easier. Attacking any one of them means you've got to try to kill them all. Best case scenario has you succeeding and then you've got no support for future engagements. Stupid. Worst case scenario has you failing, you've got to keep running because those companions are now trying to kill you, and you've still got no support. Very Stupid.

Play the character's actual alignment. Unless your DM can show you the part of the alignment section which says you must dine on fresh PC entrails regularly, ignore anybody else's idea of what that entails.

[Codyage]

I don't believe I said that is what I wanted to do.


"The problem is though I don't WANT to gut them and kill them in their sleep. But the general impression they are getting from my back story is that will most likely be what I do. I would rather try not to end it in a blood shed matter for my allies, yet stay true to the CE alignment."

They sadly are under the impression that Chaotic Evil means run around and kill everyone while Lawful Good is more Lawful Stupid. I have tried to explain this to them, but they are still stuck in that mind set. I am pointing out that they will most likely believe that I will try and kill them, when that isn't my attentions. They believe Lawful and Chaotic Stupid are the norm, which makes me sad.

But that has changed since I had the talk with the DM. I am Neutral Evil now.


I get a rapier, and a dagger as my weapons, along with TWF and Weapon finesse. I have 21 DEX currently. I took a flaw and for a -1 to AC I have taken Travel Devotion. I decided it may be good so I can move as a swift action all though only at one time per day but I will be able to use it to step in get off a full round attack. If needed I can tumble my way out, throw marbles, or even cast darkness to aid me.

The teams magic users will hopefully get spells so we can endure the environment. But if a lot of snow or rain is falling down, it will affect both sides. I am still looking to see if a way to turn the weather to my advantage exists.

Also a question, if the ground was wet enough say a puddle of water on the ground, or maybe some ice, would that cause the people on it to make balance checks or am I just being to hopeful?

[Gwendol]

I strongly recommend the following:

Penetrating strike ACF (Dungeonscape): half SA damage to those normally immune.
Three levels of Swashbuckler (CW), and grab the Daring Outlaw feat. You get to stack your swashbuckler and rogue levels for determining sneak attack damage etc. Additionally, you get weapon finesse as a bonus at Swash level 1. With your intelligence, you will get a lot out of insightful strike!
Dark template as previously mentioned. You'll have to set for the generic version, but it's still good.

The Craven feat to add your CL to sneak attack damage.

The swashbuckler gains some movement bonuses and maneuvers, which may help in a cold environment.

[Curmudgeon]

I strongly recommend the following:

Penetrating strike ACF (Dungeonscape): half SA damage to those normally immune.
I strongly recommend against that, especially with this particular DM.

Instead, I suggest Lightbringer Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208). This one gives you sneak attack damage (with half the dice) to those normally immune.

The ACF in Dungeonscape looks like they started with Lightbringer Penetrating Strike, cut out a couple of lines of text, and shortened the name, just to save space on the page. In the process they made it ambiguous whether the damage dealt is still sneak attack. With a DM who seems bent on making this character less fun to play, that ambiguity is very bad. If you're not still dealing sneak attack damage then bonuses to sneak attack like Craven won't apply. :smallmad:

Find a way to get your hands on Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and avoid the argument. Because the ACF names are different you've got that choice; the Dungeonscape version isn't an official replacement.

[Codyage]

Per rulings of the DM we only get to use players handbook and two other books. Since he made the tiefling a character, the book for the tiefling isn't needed. However I only get three books total. PHB, and two supplements.

At the start I only get two feats, which I chose as Weapon Finese, and TWF. I was able to take a flaw, and get another feat, along with a trait. I made the Trait, Quick so I can move faster, and the bonus feat Travel Devotion, so I at least once per day I can move as a swift action.

So right now this is the best I have as level 4.

Feat
Feat
Feat(Thanks to Flaw)


I will see what I can do by prestige classing, but I may be unable too. The question is, which order are these feats more valuable in? I can get three feats total for my current level, but which ones should I grab? I was thinking Weapon Finesse and TWF minimum. But I want to hear all the suggestions. I have taken a lot of the feats from here and written them down. But If I have to pick three just right now, which ones do I grab? Right now Weapon Finesse seems really good.

Also my BAB should only be 3 correct? Because four levels in rogue?

[Andezzar]

However I only get three books total. PHB, and two supplements.Which are the other two?


So right now this is the best I have as level 4.Don't forget that the Tiefling is ECL 5, but has 4 class levels. I don't know what your DM had in mind.


But If I have to pick three just right now, which ones do I grab? Right now Weapon Finesse seems really good.If you want to go melee weapon finesse most likely is a must. I'd also recommend TWF for twice as many chances for sneak attack damage. Plus if you move you do not incur the TWF penalty as you are not attacking with two weapons. It's probably too early for Craven, the -2 on will saves will hurt too much and you probably cannot gain immunity to mind-affecting yet. If you may/want to go into shadowdancer take dodge, mobility or combat reflexes. Otherwise Darkstalker (Lords of Madness)

If Tome of Battle is allowed get Martial Study (Shadow Hand Maneuver of your choice) and Shadow Blade (+DEX to damage on dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, and spiked chain). Get Martial Stance (assassin's stance) at level 6.

I think this should work sooner or later:
Weapon finesse, EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Adaptable Flanker. The last two are from PHB II. Now you can flank and thus sneak attack all by yourself.


Also my BAB should only be 3 correct? Because four levels in rogue?Yes, if you get 4 rogue levels.

[Codyage]

All right, thank you. I don't know if he will count the use of a flaw and or trait as one of my supplements, but without it I lose one of my three feats and ten speed.

For sure I have Players Handbook and one other book of my choice. I MAY have one more, if he doesn't count my flaws/traits as one. But right now it is PHB, Supplement, and Unearthed Arcana(I may be able to change this, but it is best to leave it in if he counts the use of a flaw/trait as requiring another supplement.)

He may let me use PHB II for free, but I am unsure.

[Codyage]

If Tome of Battle is allowed get Martial Study (Shadow Hand Maneuver of your choice) and Shadow Blade (+DEX to damage on dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, and spiked chain). Get Martial Stance (assassin's stance) at level 6.
.

Do I need a level in Swordsage to use a Shadow Hand Maneuver? Or can I pick any maneuver despite the Swordsage Level?

[Andezzar]

You could pick a level or two of Swordsage for extra goodies but Martial Study and Martial Stance allow you to get maneuvers without having levels in the appropriate initiator classes as long as you have the appropriate initiator level and fulfill the prerequisites.

Woops my bad, you can't get Assassin's stance at level six without class levels in Swordsage. You need an Initiator Level of 5 to get Level 3 stances. Without Swordsage you would need to be at least Level 10

[Curmudgeon]

Per rulings of the DM we only get to use players handbook and two other books.
You realize this is another huge detriment to a Rogue character, right? A core spellcaster can get along pretty well with PHB + Complete <whatever> + Spell Compendium, but a Rogue needs over a dozen books just to be adequate.

Why is this rule in place?

[Gwendol]

Totally agree: rogues have support all over the place.

[Codyage]

The rule is set up to limit everyone's choices on what they can do. It won't make the campaign easy by any means, but I think I will be able to get by with just three books.

The funny part is when you bring up Spell Compendium. That book is actually allowed as well, because he said it was a book with a more complete spell list. Not to mention the NPC he is playing, and the majority of our party is going to be spell users.

Right now this is how our party looks.

rogue tiefling
bard gnome
barbarian half orc
wizard human
duskblade gray elf
(Another possible wizard, or maybe a psion)
and finally a cleric Aasimar

The thing I noticed is that the only cleric role on the entire list is an Aasimar, but he didn't have a back story or anything so they get to make it however they want. But the fact that the only "Suggested" healer was a creature on the other side of the planetouched spectrum kind irks me.

Something I didn't like when me and him were joking around. "You know if you try to back stab us, I am just going to make your weapons good aligned, so you can't use them."

(Also sorry for grammar, still trying to wake up.)

[Clericzilla]

I read through most of this and here is what I'm getting...


You aren't going to have fun playing a DMNPC (which is essentially what the DM is doing to you)

Your fellow players think this is all your doing and not the DM. Tell them out of game that you didn't choose to play someone with that background (someone that will gut them in their sleep).

If you can't play the character you want.... Have your character perform suicide or bum rush a monster and then roll up a new character.

....


Wait does the rest of the group know whats happening? Is the DM making them play certain characters (thus work against you)? This sounds like a DM I played one session under where we had to play his characters his way and if we went to far away from where he thought they should be then we would be knocked out and wake up somewhere else (in a hotel bed or our base of operation).

That didn't last long. It isn't very fun to play in someone's story and just sit back and never make your own decisions.

[Andezzar]

The thing I noticed is that the only cleric role on the entire list is an Aasimar, but he didn't have a back story or anything so they get to make it however they want. But the fact that the only "Suggested" healer was a creature on the other side of the planetouched spectrum kind irks me.Make the tiefling one of those who just feel "wrong" to others, and not one with horns and cloven hooves or a tail. Since they will probably distrust him already, they will probably not notice that he is a tiefling. Remember, they should make a Knowledge (the Planes) DC 14 check to know that he is a tiefling and anyone without the skill cannot know, unless someone else tells them. If they metagame it, leave or have the character commit suicide and make the character you want.


Something I didn't like when me and him were joking around. "You know if you try to back stab us, I am just going to make your weapon good aligned, so you can't use them."I really don't know what his plan is. Neither Align Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alignWeapon.htm) nor Bless Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWeapon.htm) nor the Holy special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy) prevent an evil character from using it. The latter however would gimp the tiefling - all the time not only against his "comrades". Even if it did work, why are the other characters giving the prisoner weapons or are working with someone they deeply distrust? The whole campaign premise does not make much sense to me.

[Codyage]

I read through most of this and here is what I'm getting...


You aren't going to have fun playing a DMNPC (which is essentially what the DM is doing to you)

Your fellow players think this is all your doing and not the DM. Tell them out of game that you didn't choose to play someone with that background (someone that will gut them in their sleep).

If you can't play the character you want.... Have your character perform suicide or bum rush a monster and then roll up a new character.

....


Wait does the rest of the group know whats happening? Is the DM making them play certain characters (thus work against you)? This sounds like a DM I played one session under where we had to play his characters his way and if we went to far away from where he thought they should be then we would be knocked out and wake up somewhere else (in a hotel bed or our base of operation).

That didn't last long. It isn't very fun to play in someone's story and just sit back and never make your own decisions.

That whole issue was cleared up when I explained in a strongly worded letter how controlling my "motivation" in the story. The entire REASON my character lives, was the last straw. After that he apologized, not knowing it was an issue. For the sake of peace, I kept the rogue tiefling, but should no longer be gimped as being a convict. I now have control on his back story and what not.

That was the plan on the tiefling, don't have him look evil, just make him feel like something is wrong about him. With my current set up right now, I should no longer be distrusted as much by the party. The only people who are going to probably distrust me is the Aasamir, and the npc in the party, who know I am a tiefling. Everyone else in the party doesn't know, unless they tell them in game.


Make the tiefling one of those who just feel "wrong" to others, and not one with horns and cloven hooves or a tail. Since they will probably distrust him already, they will probably not notice that he is a tiefling. Remember, they should make a Knowledge (the Planes) DC 14 check to know that he is a tiefling and anyone without the skill cannot know, unless someone else tells them. If they metagame it, leave or have the character commit suicide and make the character you want.

I really don't know what his plan is. Neither Align Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alignWeapon.htm) nor Bless Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWeapon.htm) nor the Holy special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy) prevent an evil character from using it. The latter however would gimp the tiefling - all the time not only against his "comrades". Even if it did work, why are the other characters giving the prisoner weapons or are working with someone they deeply distrust? The whole campaign premise does not make much sense to me.

Which was his plan. If if he believes I may turn on the party. All though it was a joke, getting a negative level for wielding my weapon isn't a pretty thought.

Originally the whole party would distrust me because I was a convict in prison, but after the DM and my back story debacle that is no longer the case. The only people who may distrust me now, are the npc and the aasimar. The npc will know I am a tiefling because he is the one who invited me to join the group. (Originally this was an offer made by the courts instead, but that has now changed.)

My friend who is playing the Aasimar says he will probably distrust me, because I am just a tiefling in general. I can't control how he plays his character. But I believe he is going to play it thinking I am a literal devil.

I don't think he cares if he stops my effectiveness towards bad guys. He would rather take the risk, and not be stabbed. Then to have me stab bad guys as well. (He would rather handicap me to the party and to the bad guys so he doesn't take the risk of being stabbed.)

But that issue is with a player and not the DM. So it is out of my control.

[Andezzar]

That whole issue was cleared up when I explained in a strongly worded letter how controlling my "motivation" in the story. The entire REASON my character lives, was the last straw. After that he apologized, not knowing it was an issue. For the sake of peace, I kept the rogue tiefling, but should no longer be gimped as being a convict. I now have control on his back story and what not.

That was the plan on the tiefling, don't have him look evil, just make him feel like something is wrong about him. With my current set up right now, I should no longer be distrusted as much by the party. The only people who are going to probably distrust me is the Aasamir, and the npc in the party, who know I am a tiefling. Everyone else in the party doesn't know, unless they tell them in game.Ah, this sounds more enjoyable.


Which was his plan. If if he believes I may turn on the party. All though it was a joke, getting a negative level for wielding my weapon isn't a pretty thought.Well, first of all he character would have to get your weapon, keep it for several days and enchant it. I doubt your Tiefling would let that happen. Even if the Aasimar got that, you still don't have to wield it, if you plan to turn on him. Just headbut him in his sleep. If he does not threaten you he does not even get an AoO. Once he is knocked out, throw him from some high place, preferably into water. Problem solved.

The other option would be for the Aasimar to cast Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) on your weapon. AFAIK this is a paladin only spell, so causing unnecessary suffering to the tiefling and the party simply because the character belongs to a certain race, is a pretty obvious reason for a fall.


My friend who is playing the Aasimar says he will probably distrust me, because I am just a tiefling in general. I can't control how he plays his character. But I believe he is going to play it thinking I am a literal devil. Just wait and see, maybe it won't be that bad.


I don't think he cares if he stops my effectiveness towards bad guys. He would rather take the risk, and not be stabbed. Then to have me stab bad guys as well. (He would rather handicap me to the party and to the bad guys so he doesn't take the risk of being stabbed.)Then make him and the party suffer for your handicap, and especially make sure the party knows. Let them deal with him.