I know CR is just a guideline, but this is a bit much...

[Drakevarg]

In the campaign I'm presently running, named Dragonfall, the primary motivating factor of the storyline is that a Great Wyrm dragon is, well... burninating the countryside, for lack of a better term. Said dragon is by a considerable margin the toughest thing in the setting's Material Plane equivalent, and unless the party intervenes will have successfully burnt every square inch of the known world to a crisp by the time they hit 20th level. At present they're at 8th, and the dragon has recently finished wiping out his first country.

Anyway, in this setting dragons always have class levels once they're Young or older. The Great Wyrm, named Ignis Vetus, is 20th level (Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Bloodscaled Fury 12/Frenzied Berserker 5, if you're curious), which bumps his CR up to a supposed 46. Since the campaign caps at 20, this means that artifact abuse is going to be essential to stopping him.

Anyway, backstory aside, I like to amuse myself from time to time by running calculations around Ignis Vetus. For example, I've estimated that it would take over 2 million 3rd level soldiers to match his CR. This is obviously just a CR comparison, as none of those soldiers could ever deal the slightest bit of damage to him considering:

AC 50
DR 7/--
DR 20/Magic and Adamantine (DR 25/Epic and Cold-Forged* while raging.)
Fast Healing 15

But that aside, one of the main artifacts of the campaign are the Gems of the Elemental Paragons, which allow the user to summon up a huge number of elementals. According to CR, it would take something in the neighborhood of 16500 Elemental Monoliths to match Ignis Vetus.

But after calculating this, I got curious enough about the matchup to actually look at their stats, and by reading that, it would only take about 1140 Air Monoliths to drop Ignis in one round, assuming average damage rolls. Obviously there's plenty of margin for error, especially when you consider Ignis can cast spells on par with a 19th level sorceror, but a discrepancy of over 15000 CR 17 monsters is a bit preposterous.

Anyone care to explain where the error occurs?

*I've houseruled that Cold Iron is a trait that can be applied to any metal, hence Cold-Forged.

[Excitonex]

Well no wonder. You're basically setting up 15,000 kobolds against a level 19 gestalt character with racial hit dice. I doubt 15,000 kobolds or your 15,000 elementals would even deal a point of damage.

Edit: Apparently I misread. You're asking why 1,140 elementals are able to beat your CR 46 dragon? I think you'll find that with proper tactics your dragon should be able to beat all 15,000 elementals without taking damage.

[Edge of Dreams]

The "error" occurs in pitting two monsters against each other.

CR was never meant to be used to see if monster A can beat monster B. CR is only intended to gauge how challenging each monster is to a standard party of adventurers.

[Chess435]

The CR system isn't built to handle large gaps like that. I believe the DMG explicitly states that once the gap is large enough, numbers don't really matter.

[Aharon]

Well, the topic name says it - CR is just a guideline. It is explicitly centered around small encounters, and the DMG states that fact (page 39, Ad hoc awards discusses wether 32 orcs are an ECL 9 encounter, implying that the method breaks down at some point).

Taking your example (16500 Elemental monoliths vs. one CR46 Great Wyrm): How are the 1140 Air Monoliths attacking your Great Wyrm at the same time? Only a limited amount can go into melee with him, and he likely has the capability to evade a battle where all monoliths are involved (Quicken teleport away, for example). So while he can't kill all the monoliths in an encounter, they don't win against him, either.

[NichG]

Of course, a party consisting of a Lv3 Wizard and Lv3 Warblade or Swordsage could in fact damage this thing via a combination of Wraithstrike and Mountain Hammer (since its touch AC is probably pretty bad, unless it really is pulling out all the stops and is using that spell that converts a dragon's natural armor to deflection).

So for that matter, a Lv1 Wizard could damage it with Hail of Stones, which doesn't allow SR. It probably wouldn't take too many of those Lv1 wizards to pelt it to death.

[Alabenson]

To be honest, you're combining two areas where the CR system starts rapidly breaking down; high epic CRs and groups of over twelve monsters. The CR system wasn't really designed to handle either scenario, so when you combine them its no surprise that it falls apart.

[SowZ]

To stand a chance, the party has to be serious power-gamers, the dragon has to be just a physical monster with some SLAs, (take away the 19th level sorc. casting for the love of the gods,) or it is going to take artifacts/pure DM fiat which will make the characters feel like they were disposable w, (any group with the artifact could do it and their abilities didn't come into play in the last battle much.)

The last could maybe be avoided with a REALLY epically designed final artifact thing, I suppose, where after they are assembled something special has to be done whilst the dragon is killing an army to get to them or somesuch? It would be touch to make it not feel contrived, though.

[Excitonex]

To stand a chance, the party has to be serious power-gamers, the dragon has to be just a physical monster with some SLAs, (take away the 19th level sorc. casting for the love of the gods,) or it is going to take artifacts/pure DM fiat which will make the characters feel like they were disposable w, (any group with the artifact could do it and their abilities didn't come into play in the last battle much.)

The last could maybe be avoided with a REALLY epically designed final artifact thing, I suppose, where after they are assembled something special has to be done whilst the dragon is killing an army to get to them or somesuch? It would be touch to make it not feel contrived, though.

I'm sure with proper storytelling techniques his players usefulness isn't really in question. I've played many games where the final boss has some trick you need to pull to defeat him and they never made me feel any less awesome when I won.

[Gavinfoxx]

Eh, a well equipped sorcerer who focused on the various Shivering Touch techniques, with the appropriate gear to stop the fast healing and such, could solo him... There are really a lot of ways a relatively low level character could solo that monster.

[SowZ]

I'm sure with proper storytelling techniques his players usefulness isn't really in question. I've played many games where the final boss has some trick you need to pull to defeat him and they never made me feel any less awesome when I won.

It is possible, which I admitted, but it takes a REALLY well planned boss fight not to feel contrived.


Eh, a well equipped sorcerer who focused on the various Shivering Touch techniques, with the appropriate gear to stop the fast healing and such, could solo him... There are really a lot of ways a relatively low level character could solo that monster.

I have no doubt serious playgrounders could do it. I just doubt Besides, if he is playing a sorcerer with an Int that high correctly, he will have tricks of his own and ways of preventing most tricks. I am concerned about this boss if it isn't epic, is all.

[mregecko]

Anyway, in this setting dragons always have class levels once they're Young or older. The Great Wyrm, named Ignis Vetus, is 20th level (Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Bloodscaled Fury 12/Frenzied Berserker 5, if you're curious), which bumps his CR up to a supposed 46. Since the campaign caps at 20, this means that artifact abuse is going to be essential to stopping him.

{...}

Anyone care to explain where the error occurs?



For whatever it's worth, in my opinion your CR calculation is off. I'm assuming you're doing CR 26 base (great wyrm red dragon) + 20 for class levels? I'd call all of them unassociated class levels though, personally.... They don't progress sorcerer casting, breath weapon, or anything else essential to being "dragony"... Instead they introduce the new idea of raging and grappling (bear totem barb), when dragons are specifically called out as not favoring grapple attacks.

So I'd say it's actually only 26 + (1/2)*20, or CR 36.

That being said... CR is a guide, and when you're talking about gaps this huge, this kind of thing is meaningless. (Pretty much what every other poster said)

[Drakevarg]

I suppose since we're discussing it anyway, what ways do you think this party:

Mountain Dwarf Favored Soul/Dracolyte
Wood Elf Wereserval Monk
Human Rogue/Fighter/Order of the Bow Initiate
Human Sorceror/Elemental Savant
Warforged Scout... Scout

could use these artifacts:

GEMS OF THE ELEMENTAL PARAGONS
These four spindle-shaped gems, each roughly two inches long and an inch in diameter, are said to be carved from the heart of the Elemental Planes. Regardless of if this is true, their power is not to be trifled with. To use a Gem of the Elemental Paragon, the user must have the ability to cast any spell on the Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally lines. The user may then summon a number of elementals of the specified type per day equal to (1/2 their HD x their primary casting modifier). For example, a 15th level Spirit Shaman with 20 WIS and the Gem of the Water Paragon may summon 35 HD of Water Elementals per day. They need not spend all these HD at once, and can space it out throughout the day similar to a Paladin's Lay on Hands ability. Each elemental summoned remains with the user for 1 Minute/caster's HD or until slain.

If a character comes into the possession of multiple Gems of the Elemental Paragons, the number of HD each gem can summon doubles. For example, if the same Spirit Shaman came into possession of the Gem of the Air Paragon, he could summon 70 HD of Air Elementals. These allotments are separate for each gem, meaning the Spirit Shaman could also summon 70 HD of Water Elementals, for a total of 140 HD each day. Each new gem in the character's possession doubles this count again, meaning that a third gem would increase each gem's limit to 140 HD (for a total of 420) and a fourth would increase them to 280 HD (for a total of 1120).

to kill this dragon?

{table=head]CR|Class|HD|BAB|Special|Feats
4|Wyrmling|6d12|+6/+1|Immunity to Fire and Sonic (Vulnerability to Cold and Electricity), Burn (1d6)|Power Attack, Multiattack, Hover
6|Very Young|9d12|+9/+4|--|Wingstorm
8|Young|12d12|+12/+7/+2|Burn (2d6)|Improved Multiattack
9|Barbarian 1|13d12|+13/+8/+3|Rage (1/Day)|--
11|Juvenile|16d12|+16/+11/+6/+1|Pass Without Trace (5/Day), Produce Flame (5/Day)|Clinging Breath
12|Barbarian 2|17d12|+17/+12/+7/+2|--|--
13|Barbarian 3|18d12|+19/+14/+9/+4|--|Lingering Breath
15|Young Adult|21d12|+21/+16/+11/+6|Burn (3d6), DR 5/Magic and Adamantine, SR 18|Shock Wave
16|Bloodscaled Fury 1|22d12|+22/+17/+12/+7|Fearsome Presence|--
17|Bloodscaled Fury 2|23d12|+23/+18/+13/+8|Draconic Fury +2/+1|--
19|Adult|26d12|+26/+21/+16/+11|Heat Metal (4/Day), Soften Earth and Stone (4/Day), SR 21|Recover Breath
20|Bloodscaled Fury 3|27d12|+27/+22/+17/+12|Scales of Blood (SR +3, DR +5)|Enlarge Breath
21|Bloodscaled Fury 4|28d12|+28/+23/+18/+13 |--|Rend
23|Mature Adult|31d12|+31/+26/+21/+16|Burn (4d6), DR 10/Magic and Adamantine, SR 24|Cleave
24|Bloodscaled Fury 5|32d12|+32/+27/+22/+17|Extended Fury|--
25|Bloodscaled Fury 6|33d12|+33/+28/+23/+18|Draconic Fury +4/+2|Great Cleave
27|Old|36d12|+36/+31/+26/+21|Fireball (3/Day), Stone Shape (3/Day), SR 27|Destructive Rage
28|Bloodscaled Fury 7|37d12|+37/+32/+27/+22|Scales of Blood (DR 20/Magic and Cold-Forged)|--
29|Bloodscaled Fury 8|38d12|+38/+33/+28/+23|Incite Rage|--
31|Very Old |41d12|+41/+36/+31/+26|Burn (5d6), DR 15/Magic and Adamantine, SR 30|Intimidating Rage
32|Bloodscaled Fury 9|42d12|+42/+37/+32/+27|Tireless Rage|Maximize Breath
33|Bloodscaled Fury 10|43d12|+43/+38/+33/+28|Draconic Fury (+6/+3)|--
35|Ancient|46d12|+46/+41/+36/+31|Rusting Grasp (2/Day), Wall of Fire (2/Day), SR 33|Fast Healing 3
36|Bloodscaled Fury 11|47d12|+47/+42/+37/+32|Scales of Blood (DR 25/Epic and Cold-Forged)|--
37|Bloodscaled Fury 12|48d12|+48/+43/+38/+33|Blinding Speed|Fast Healing 6
39|Wyrm|51d12|+51/+46/+41/+36|Burn (6d6), DR 20/Magic and Adamantine, SR 36|Fast Healing 9
40|Frenzied Berserker 1|52d12|+52/+47/+42/+37|Frenzy (1/Day)|Diehard
41|Frenzied Berserker 2|53d12|+53/+48/+43/+38|Supreme Cleave|--
43|Great Wyrm|56d12|+56/+51/+46/+41|Greater Fireburst (1/Day), Wall of Stone (1/Day), SR 39|Fast Healing 12
44|Frenzied Berserker 3|57d12|+57/+52/+47/+42|Frenzy (2/Day)|Fast Healing 15
45|Frenzied Berserker 4|58d12|+58/+53/+48/+43|Deathless Frenzy|--
46|Frenzied Berserker 5|59d12|+59/+54/+49/+44|Frenzy (3/Day), Improved Power Attack|--[/table]
*Ignis Vetus is a Magma Dragon, which simply means he gains all the special abilities of Fire and Earth Dragons listed here. (http://dndlegacy.wikispaces.com/Dragons)

STR 51
DEX 20
CON 40
INT 30
WIS 30
CHA 30


Instead they introduce the new idea of raging and grappling (bear totem barb), when dragons are specifically called out as not favoring grapple attacks.

My bad, I meant Boar Totem. Very similar words when you're just skimming a char sheet. Anyway, I don't much care for what the Monster Manual says dragons do or don't favor. A monster with the wingspan of a football field, enough strength to bench press a small mountain, and a mouth full of swords is going to take full advantage of these facts.

[SowZ]

I suppose since we're discussing it anyway, what ways do you think this party:

Mountain Dwarf Favored Soul/Dracolyte
Wood Elf Wereserval Monk
Human Rogue/Fighter/Order of the Bow Initiate
Human Sorceror/Elemental Savant
Warforged Scout... Scout

could use these artifacts:

GEMS OF THE ELEMENTAL PARAGONS
These four spindle-shaped gems, each roughly two inches long and an inch in diameter, are said to be carved from the heart of the Elemental Planes. Regardless of if this is true, their power is not to be trifled with. To use a Gem of the Elemental Paragon, the user must have the ability to cast any spell on the Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally lines. The user may then summon a number of elementals of the specified type per day equal to (1/2 their HD x their primary casting modifier). For example, a 15th level Spirit Shaman with 20 WIS and the Gem of the Water Paragon may summon 35 HD of Water Elementals per day. They need not spend all these HD at once, and can space it out throughout the day similar to a Paladin's Lay on Hands ability. Each elemental summoned remains with the user for 1 Minute/caster's HD or until slain.

If a character comes into the possession of multiple Gems of the Elemental Paragons, the number of HD each gem can summon doubles. For example, if the same Spirit Shaman came into possession of the Gem of the Air Paragon, he could summon 70 HD of Air Elementals. These allotments are separate for each gem, meaning the Spirit Shaman could also summon 70 HD of Water Elementals, for a total of 140 HD each day. Each new gem in the character's possession doubles this count again, meaning that a third gem would increase each gem's limit to 140 HD (for a total of 420) and a fourth would increase them to 280 HD (for a total of 1120).

to kill this dragon?

{table=head]CR|Class|HD|BAB|Special|Feats
4|Wyrmling|6d12|+6/+1|Immunity to Fire and Sonic (Vulnerability to Cold and Electricity), Burn (1d6)|Power Attack, Multiattack, Hover
6|Very Young|9d12|+9/+4|--|Wingstorm
8|Young|12d12|+12/+7/+2|Burn (2d6)|Improved Multiattack
9|Barbarian 1|13d12|+13/+8/+3|Rage (1/Day)|--
11|Juvenile|16d12|+16/+11/+6/+1|Pass Without Trace (5/Day), Produce Flame (5/Day)|Clinging Breath
12|Barbarian 2|17d12|+17/+12/+7/+2|--|--
13|Barbarian 3|18d12|+19/+14/+9/+4|--|Lingering Breath
15|Young Adult|21d12|+21/+16/+11/+6|Burn (3d6), DR 5/Magic and Adamantine, SR 18|Shock Wave
16|Bloodscaled Fury 1|22d12|+22/+17/+12/+7|Fearsome Presence|--
17|Bloodscaled Fury 2|23d12|+23/+18/+13/+8|Draconic Fury +2/+1|--
19|Adult|26d12|+26/+21/+16/+11|Heat Metal (4/Day), Soften Earth and Stone (4/Day), SR 21|Recover Breath
20|Bloodscaled Fury 3|27d12|+27/+22/+17/+12|Scales of Blood (SR +3, DR +5)|Enlarge Breath
21|Bloodscaled Fury 4|28d12|+28/+23/+18/+13 |--|Rend
23|Mature Adult|31d12|+31/+26/+21/+16|Burn (4d6), DR 10/Magic and Adamantine, SR 24|Cleave
24|Bloodscaled Fury 5|32d12|+32/+27/+22/+17|Extended Fury|--
25|Bloodscaled Fury 6|33d12|+33/+28/+23/+18|Draconic Fury +4/+2|Great Cleave
27|Old|36d12|+36/+31/+26/+21|Fireball (3/Day), Stone Shape (3/Day), SR 27|Destructive Rage
28|Bloodscaled Fury 7|37d12|+37/+32/+27/+22|Scales of Blood (DR 20/Magic and Cold-Forged)|--
29|Bloodscaled Fury 8|38d12|+38/+33/+28/+23|Incite Rage|--
31|Very Old |41d12|+41/+36/+31/+26|Burn (5d6), DR 15/Magic and Adamantine, SR 30|Intimidating Rage
32|Bloodscaled Fury 9|42d12|+42/+37/+32/+27|Tireless Rage|Maximize Breath
33|Bloodscaled Fury 10|43d12|+43/+38/+33/+28|Draconic Fury (+6/+3)|--
35|Ancient|46d12|+46/+41/+36/+31|Rusting Grasp (2/Day), Wall of Fire (2/Day), SR 33|Fast Healing 3
36|Bloodscaled Fury 11|47d12|+47/+42/+37/+32|Scales of Blood (DR 25/Epic and Cold-Forged)|--
37|Bloodscaled Fury 12|48d12|+48/+43/+38/+33|Blinding Speed|Fast Healing 6
39|Wyrm|51d12|+51/+46/+41/+36|Burn (6d6), DR 20/Magic and Adamantine, SR 36|Fast Healing 9
40|Frenzied Berserker 1|52d12|+52/+47/+42/+37|Frenzy (1/Day)|Diehard
41|Frenzied Berserker 2|53d12|+53/+48/+43/+38|Supreme Cleave|--
43|Great Wyrm|56d12|+56/+51/+46/+41|Greater Fireburst (1/Day), Wall of Stone (1/Day), SR 39|Fast Healing 12
44|Frenzied Berserker 3|57d12|+57/+52/+47/+42|Frenzy (2/Day)|Fast Healing 15
45|Frenzied Berserker 4|58d12|+58/+53/+48/+43|Deathless Frenzy|--
46|Frenzied Berserker 5|59d12|+59/+54/+49/+44|Frenzy (3/Day), Improved Power Attack|--[/table]
*Ignis Vetus is a Magma Dragon, which simply means he gains all the special abilities of Fire and Earth Dragons listed here. (http://dndlegacy.wikispaces.com/Dragons)



My bad, I meant Boar Totem. Very similar words when you're just skimming a char sheet. Anyway, I don't much care for what the Monster Manual says dragons do or don't favor. A monster with the wingspan of a football field, enough strength to bench press a small mountain, and a mouth full of swords is going to take full advantage of these facts.

In a straight up fight, where they are mostly fighting the dragon in a normal melee, assuming a reasonably optimized party? Absolutely they could do it. But the dragon would need a reason not to fight on his home terrain with all his allies, traps, magic items, lair, and contingent plans. Plus, slap onto that superb intelligence and 19th level sorc casting? I highly doubt they can.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Contingent entirely on three things:

1) What is the level of the party?
2) What is the availability of items?
3) What is the spell list of the dragon?

[Drakevarg]

In a straight up fight, where they are mostly fighting the dragon in a normal melee, assuming a reasonably optimized party? Absolutely they could do it. But the dragon would need a reason not to fight on his home terrain with all his allies, traps, magic items, lair, and contingent plans. Plus, slap onto that superb intelligence and 19th level sorc casting? I highly doubt they can.

The dragon doesn't have any allies, traps, or magical items. His lair consists of the featureless caldera of a volcano. This is all mostly because he's older than the biosphere of the planet, and has spent most of that time period asleep.


Contingent entirely on three things:

1) What is the level of the party?
2) What is the availability of items?
3) What is the spell list of the dragon?

1) 8 at present, the game caps at 20. When they face him is up to them, unless they lollygag too long and the country they're in winds up on his burninating queue.

2) Relatively low, considering that the world is also in the middle of an apocalyptic storm. Considering I've been working on a system to realistically portray a living economy, it didn't take long for me to notice that this is absolutely crippling to commerce. No resources = no goods = no loot for the PCs. On the other hand, a handful of ancient treasure hoards and the occasional king willing to throw the treasury at them to save the world can help with that somewhat.

3) Not sure, haven't given it a ton of thought since the PCs wouldn't live long enough to find out. Given Ignis's personality though, I imagine mostly spells that make things go boom.

[Lonely Tylenol]

1) 8 at present, the game caps at 20. When they face him is up to them, unless they lollygag too long and the country they're in winds up on his burninating queue.

In order to slay a dragon, they need to be able to not die in that round. Otherwise, they're fine.


2) Relatively low, considering that the world is also in the middle of an apocalyptic storm. Considering I've been working on a system to realistically portray a living economy, it didn't take long for me to notice that this is absolutely crippling to commerce. No resources = no goods = no loot for the PCs. On the other hand, a handful of ancient treasure hoards and the occasional king willing to throw the treasury at them to save the world can help with that somewhat.

What about scrolls of up to third level? Do fifth-level wizards exist in this game?


3) Not sure, haven't given it a ton of thought since the PCs wouldn't live long enough to find out. Given Ignis's personality though, I imagine mostly spells that make things go boom.

If the dragon is paranoid enough to spend half his spell reserves warding himself against intrusions of the mental and physical variety, in various different ways, the party is screwed. I can think of, off the top of my head, a spell regiment numbering five or six that would make this dragon nigh-untouchable to that specific party, barring tricks more extreme than your traditional dragon-killers.

If his spells just do variations of his breath weapon, then they can slay him right now, provided they win initiative, but it also seems like a waste of spells, knowing that.

[Drakevarg]

What about scrolls of up to third level? Do fifth-level wizards exist in this game?

They do, but with the caveat that one of the established house-rules is that you can't UMD a scroll. If it's outside of your classes' spell list, a scroll is worthless to you. That said, the party has a sorceror.

[Lonely Tylenol]

They do, but with the caveat that one of the established house-rules is that you can't UMD a scroll. If it's outside of your classes' spell list, a scroll is worthless to you. That said, the party has a sorceror.

Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch, of course, both being on the Sorcerer's spell list.

There are ways to circumvent this combo. They are going to be what stops your CR 46 campaign-ender from being (two levels' worth)-1 exp. I will leave it up to you to find them and decide whether or not to use them, as I feel like being too helpful in this case would be punishing your players for finding a legitimately clever workaround for what is already going to be an otherwise impossibly difficult encounter.

[NichG]

In this scenario I wouldn't attempt an out and out fight. The artifacts seem like they'd generally be more or less useless against this guy.

I'd probably try to raise an army from the planes, if they're part of this setting. The Sorceror is I guess the only one who could actually pull that off though. There's very little real utility in that party, which is the big problem with dealing with something far outside their power range. Given the personality you described for the dragon, I'd try to give him more interesting targets to burn and lure him off somewhere I could close off and make difficult to escape - perhaps seek out a good demiplane that could be tossed into an ether gap or something.

Another option would be to go evil, get a source of Vile damage, and just pile on unhealable damage a tiny bit at a time over many encounters. Frostburn damage or whatever could do the same. Energy Immunity (Fire) and (Sonic) would also be likely to make this guy waste some actions and lose out on his long-range options, so a hit-and-run campaign of Vile damage might eventually take him out.

Basically, my primary drive as a PC in this situation would be to acquire more options to play with before even considering trying to stop this guy. Failing that, I'd change gears and consider how many people I could evacuate from the world.

[Drakevarg]

Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch, of course, both being on the Sorcerer's spell list.

There are ways to circumvent this combo. They are going to be what stops your CR 46 campaign-ender from being (two levels' worth)-1 exp. I will leave it up to you to find them and decide whether or not to use them, as I feel like being too helpful in this case would be punishing your players for finding a legitimately clever workaround for what is already going to be an otherwise impossibly difficult encounter.

Well, there does seem to be one easy work-around, that being that I have a strict "meatspace only" rule for content. If I can't hold the book in front of me, I don't allow its use. And I can't find Shivering Touch in mine.


Given the personality you described for the dragon, I'd try to give him more interesting targets to burn and lure him off somewhere I could close off and make difficult to escape - perhaps seek out a good demiplane that could be tossed into an ether gap or something.

The best theory I've heard from the party is that the Monk wants to attempt "Summon Bigger Fish." Basically lure Ignis out into the Elemental Planes where other dragons his age category live (an established fact of the setting is that once they hit Old age, dragons are so far above everything else on the food chain that they grow weary of Mundum (the Material Plane equivalent) and head out into the cosmos) and let him duke it out with something his own size.


Another option would be to go evil, get a source of Vile damage, and just pile on unhealable damage a tiny bit at a time over many encounters. Frostburn damage or whatever could do the same. Energy Immunity (Fire) and (Sonic) would also be likely to make this guy waste some actions and lose out on his long-range options, so a hit-and-run campaign of Vile damage might eventually take him out.

Frostburn might work, but since I don't have BoVD I think there's like all of two sources of Vile damage in my books, from LoM or possibly HoH.

[SowZ]

In order to slay a dragon, they need to be able to not die in that round. Otherwise, they're fine.



What about scrolls of up to third level? Do fifth-level wizards exist in this game?



If the dragon is paranoid enough to spend half his spell reserves warding himself against intrusions of the mental and physical variety, in various different ways, the party is screwed. I can think of, off the top of my head, a spell regiment numbering five or six that would make this dragon nigh-untouchable to that specific party, barring tricks more extreme than your traditional dragon-killers.

If his spells just do variations of his breath weapon, then they can slay him right now, provided they win initiative, but it also seems like a waste of spells, knowing that.

Thing is, playing him any less than that paranoid and knowledgeable about spellcasting is underplaying his intelligence by a good 14 points. Any smart creature would do as much as possible to fight his enemies with as little danger to himself as possible.

1- this means closing to melee range should be an almost impossible feat. 2- magic wards, including magic wards on his lair, will the best use of spells since his physical might/breath weapon negates the need for blasty spells. Sure, he might like blasting just like a soldier might prefer sniper rifles to shotguns. But if you offered that soldier to go into battle with a machine gun and a sniper OR two almost the same snipers? The latter would be a silly choice. 3- if he can kill a legitimate threat through some sort of intermediary, that is preferabble. 4- Divinations.

Why doesn't he ward/trap his lair?

[GenericMook]

Well, there does seem to be one easy work-around, that being that I have a strict "meatspace only" rule for content. If I can't hold the book in front of me, I don't allow its use. And I can't find Shivering Touch in mine.

It's on page 104 of Frostburn.

[Drakevarg]

Why doesn't he ward/trap his lair?

Because when he went to sleep, the world was a lifeless ball of roiling elements. There was nothing to ward against. And since he's woken up, he hasn't returned to his lair.


It's on page 104 of Frostburn.

Spell Resistance applies, and he has oodles. Is there any way to circumvent that with a 5th level spell or lower? If not, they won't find a scroll for it.

[akahdrin]

Well you took an easy monster to kill and combined it with a ****ty class to try to create something something broken.

Fact is, dragons dex still blows. Their touch AC is a complete joke and many things will just bypass it it anyways. Also you can use the frenzied berzerker against the dragon by making it frenzy/rage at a bad time and attack something it normally would not. A swift hunter could shoot him out of the air with ease before level 15 solo. This isn't even using strong classes.

If you want a truly scary bad guy make an epic wizard.

[SowZ]

Because when he went to sleep, the world was a lifeless ball of roiling elements. There was nothing to ward against. And since he's woken up, he hasn't returned to his lair.

Hmm. Okay. Fair enough. I still think he would learn some utility, though. Teleport and such. If all he has are blasty spells and the party finds him in an unwarded lair, though, there are a number of ways they could make the encounter TOO easy. If he has poor spell selection and no contingencies or gear or allies than, yeah, it is totally doable.

[Drakevarg]

Also you can use the frenzied berzerker against the dragon by making it frenzy/rage at a bad time and attack something it normally would not.

Like what? There's nothing around that Ignis doesn't want dead.


If you want a truly scary bad guy make an epic wizard.

Boring.


Hmm. Okay. Fair enough. I still think he would learn some utility, though. Teleport and such. If all he has are blasty spells and the party finds him in an unwarded lair, though, there are a number of ways they could make the encounter TOO easy. If he has poor spell selection and no contingencies or gear or allies than, yeah, it is totally doable.

They won't find him in a lair of any sort. Ignis isn't going to pause his burninating until there isn't anything left to burninate. And yes, he probably has teleport spells and the like. Most dragons do, which is how they eventually leave Mundum. Like I said, I'm not sure what the specifics of his spell list are.

[tyckspoon]

In this scenario I wouldn't attempt an out and out fight. The artifacts seem like they'd generally be more or less useless against this guy.


Depends on what you can actually summon with them.. if Primal Elementals (the Epic version of the basic Elementals) are on the table, you have access to something that has the raw stats and HD to go head-to-head with the dragon, probably with 3 of the artifacts (level 12 caster @ at least 18 casting stat = 24 HD capacity, two doublings is 96. Primal Elementals start at 64 HD.) 3 Advanced Primal Elementals at 96 HD apiece would be able to straight up manhandle the dragon to defeat in a brawl, necessitating the dragon to stop and think and act like a spellcaster at the least. They wouldn't have the resources to stop the dragon from just clearing out and licking its wounds/planning its revenge somewhere else, but they'd be able to drive it off from a location the party wants to protect and kill the dragon if they could pin it down somewhere.

[Drakevarg]

Depends on what you can actually summon with them.. if Primal Elementals (the Epic version of the basic Elementals) are on the table, you have access to something that has the raw stats and HD to go head-to-head with the dragon, probably with 3 of the artifacts (level 12 caster @ at least 18 casting stat = 24 HD capacity, two doublings is 96. Primal Elementals start at 64 HD.) 3 Advanced Primal Elementals at 96 HD apiece would be able to straight up manhandle the dragon to defeat in a brawl, necessitating the dragon to stop and think and act like a spellcaster at the least. They wouldn't have the resources to stop the dragon from just clearing out and licking its wounds/planning its revenge somewhere else, but they'd be able to drive it off from a location the party wants to protect and kill the dragon if they could pin it down somewhere.

If I can get my hands on a physical copy of the Epic Level Handbook, Primal Elementals will be an option. And since the Sorceror's personal quest is to be the first being in history to successfully breach Omnia, the Plane of Magic (and point of origin of all of existence), I'll probably want to get it anyway since Prismatic and Force dragons are a thing.

Until then, however, they're stuck with Monoliths.

[akahdrin]

Boring? And a melee dragon is exciting? Like I said, a swift hunter could easily drop one. Most power gamers would have no issues either.

Ranged attacks will always be the bane of a dragon. Just keep bumping up that range increment and fire from where he can't see. Hitting that 10 armor class (maybe more if you stack him with magic items, but it won't matter as even a 20 armor class is a joke to hit which is hard to reach without an armor/shield bonus and still having that 10 dex) is oh so difficult once you can get paste that natural armor which is not scary at all.

Many easy ways to dispose of a dragon regardless of it's str/hp/damage. They're not that great and the fact that you added a pointless class to it makes it even easier. If it was a caster of some kind, now that on the other hand would be scary and very difficult to kill because it would have defenses and more potent offense...also the ability to shapechange, get to know the party, even become their friend, set them up to fail, etc.

Or you can have a weak trogdor burninating the peasants which isn't hard to take out. It's just a meatshield with a lot of hp that can 1 shot players, but still not difficult to just avoid.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, there does seem to be one easy work-around, that being that I have a strict "meatspace only" rule for content. If I can't hold the book in front of me, I don't allow its use. And I can't find Shivering Touch in mine.

I somehow doubt you could have a Big Bad who borrows from so many splatbooks, and not have the one for this spell, since it's not even an obscure one (Frostburn, as has been mentioned).


Spell Resistance applies, and he has oodles. Is there any way to circumvent that with a 5th level spell or lower? If not, they won't find a scroll for it.

Assay Spell Resistance (4th level, Complete Arcane p. 98) and True Casting (1st level, Complete Mage p. 121) both do this. The bonuses stack (+10 insight and +10 untyped), and come from relatively common books (both are in the Complete series, and Assay was reprinted in Spell Compendium). They are even compatible if cast in the right order: if you cast Assay Spell Resistance, Spectral Hand, True Casting and Shivering Touch in that sequence (the first two cast as prebuffs, possibly, and both can be cast in the same round, since Assay is a swift action), both bonuses will apply to Shivering Touch. Assuming the scroll is cast at the level of the Sorcerer, he only need be level 12 in order to overcome the SR completely; if the scroll is cast at the level it was made, and that is minimum level, they still meet on a 7, giving anybody who can survive against this dragon roughly 2/3 odds of obliterating it almost completely. Of course, if the Sorcerer knows this, he picks these spells up as spells known himself, and then just does the thing with no risk of failure on the SR roll.

[Flickerdart]

Ranged attacks will always be the bane of a dragon. Just keep bumping up that range increment and fire from where he can't see. Hitting that 10 armor class (maybe more if you stack him with magic items, but it won't matter as even a 20 armor class is a joke to hit which is hard to reach without an armor/shield bonus and still having that 10 dex) is oh so difficult once you can get paste that natural armor which is not scary at all.
It's a dragon with 20 class levels. How do you figure that he will not have any armour, shield, or magic bonuses to his AC, or miss chance? This is a 19th level Sorcerer, not some chump with wings.

[Drakevarg]

I somehow doubt you could have a Big Bad who borrows from so many splatbooks, and not have the one for this spell, since it's not even an obscure one (Frostburn, as has been mentioned).

I do have Frostburn. I couldn't find that spell at the time of posting, but when its location was provided I looked it up.


Assay Spell Resistance (4th level, Complete Arcane p. 98) and True Casting (1st level, Complete Mage p. 121) both do this. The bonuses stack (+10 insight and +10 untyped), and come from relatively common books (both are in the Complete series, and Assay was reprinted in Spell Compendium). They are even compatible if cast in the right order: if you cast Assay Spell Resistance, Spectral Hand, True Casting and Shivering Touch in that sequence (the first two cast as prebuffs, possibly, and both can be cast in the same round, since Assay is a swift action), both bonuses will apply to Shivering Touch. Assuming the scroll is cast at the level of the Sorcerer, he only need be level 12 in order to overcome the SR completely; if the scroll is cast at the level it was made, and that is minimum level, they still meet on a 7, giving anybody who can survive against this dragon roughly 2/3 odds of obliterating it almost completely. Of course, if the Sorcerer knows this, he picks these spells up as spells known himself, and then just does the thing with no risk of failure on the SR roll.

True Casting won't be an option, as I don't have Complete Mage and never intend to, since I haven't seen anything I liked in it. That said, this is an obvious enough weak point that I'll have to give Ignis a few SR-boosting spells or something.


Boring? And a melee dragon is exciting?

To clarify: you're boring.

[Gavinfoxx]

Spell Resistance applies, and he has oodles. Is there any way to circumvent that with a 5th level spell or lower? If not, they won't find a scroll for it.


There are several ways to get it to work more than it usually would, including:

Start with, depending:
Assay Magical Resistance
True Casting
Arcane Fusion
True Strike
Enervation
Maybe even do a Limited Wish to autohit... (can be done from a scroll)

or a Dispel Magic of some kind (there are several types) to take down the Scintillating Scales or other defenses and miss chances

And then you..
Cast into a Spectral Hand, or Reach Spell or Optical Spell it
Maximize via Metamagic Rod. Maybe also Empower it.

Bam, a huge amount of dex damage. Then you rush up and coup de grace it with your Large, x4 crit exotic weapons that are custom made to overcome the appropriate DR, until it's dead...

Also: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267283

[Spuddles]

Even if this dragon didn't have 19 sorc levels and triple cr45 loot, it still has 20 levels of wbl to cover any gaps in its defenses.

It should have immunity to most lame stuff like irresistable dance, level drain, ability damage/drain, and any energy damage.

Shivering touch should fail like 3 times over- untouchable touch ac, immune to energy, immune to ability damage.

Same for enervation, and any other spell that works well when your DM doesn't bother to optimize.


The "error" occurs in pitting two monsters against each other.

CR was never meant to be used to see if monster A can beat monster B. CR is only intended to gauge how challenging each monster is to a standard party of adventurers.

This is the right answer.

If you want to see how the dragon fairs against monsters, calculate its ECL (i am guessing around 60-70?), then compare it to CRs.

[Flickerdart]

This is the right answer.

If you want to see how the dragon fairs against monsters, calculate its ECL (i am guessing around 60-70?), then compare it to CRs.
Great Wyrms don't have listed LAs, so you can't. Also, counting by ECL would make the monster seem even weaker than normal, since you'd still need the same amount of elementals to kill it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

True Casting won't be an option, as I don't have Complete Mage and never intend to, since I haven't seen anything I liked in it. That said, this is an obvious enough weak point that I'll have to give Ignis a few SR-boosting spells or something.

That's really a shame, since Complete Mage offered some interesting options to make Warlocks viable (including two Warlock theurge classes), as well as some other good PrCs, a lot of interesting feats (not the least of which were the reserve feats, caster tactical feats, and bloodline feats), and material components which do stuff. Not all of it all too powerful or anything, but a lot of interesting ways to flavor magic.

But that's aside from the point. The point is, I could come up with a way, using only spells innate to the Sorcerer and without reaching far into splatbooks (I never left the Complete Series) to boost SR to a point where it's reasonable to assume it would be overcome--and I didn't even include the core feats Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration, which come straight out of core, or the possibility that the Sorcerer just learns Shivering Touch on his own (which would definitely use his own caster level). Actual caster level increases would have the same effect. There are a number of other ways to defeat Shivering Touch, but your dragon would have to think smart to use them--which would necessitate being more defensive about his spell choices (it seems like he would probably want too many blasty spells he doesn't need to cast in combat anyway, since all variants of rage shut down the ability to cast spells, and I didn't see Rage Mage in his class listing).

[Spuddles]

Great Wyrms don't have listed LAs, so you can't. Also, counting by ECL would make the monster seem even weaker than normal, since you'd still need the same amount of elementals to kill it.

I thought they were available in like draconomicon or ELH or something.

[Eldariel]

Of course, a party consisting of a Lv3 Wizard and Lv3 Warblade or Swordsage could in fact damage this thing via a combination of Wraithstrike and Mountain Hammer (since its touch AC is probably pretty bad, unless it really is pulling out all the stops and is using that spell that converts a dragon's natural armor to deflection).

Pulling out all the stops? I'd consider that absolute baseline requirement for an epic Dragon; after all, if it's as simple as just using Touch Attacks to kill him, he isn't a very impressive enemy. Hallmark of Dragons is that they don't have weak points; they have reasonable defense against anything.

Not using Scintillating Scales really undermines that giving them a clear chink in the armor to attack instead of requiring actually overpowering it on some front.

[Phelix-Mu]

Of course, a party consisting of a Lv3 Wizard and Lv3 Warblade or Swordsage could in fact damage this thing via a combination of Wraithstrike and Mountain Hammer (since its touch AC is probably pretty bad, unless it really is pulling out all the stops and is using that spell that converts a dragon's natural armor to deflection).

SCINTILLATING SCALES. Any dragon that doesn't use this better either have some kind of Wisdom-slaying superiority complex or a really low intelligence. Any dragon that lived to great wyrm age has probably seen it's share of fights, and touch and ranged touch attacks completely undermine the sense of the threat the dragon poses. If a dragon doesn't automatically persist or contingency or buff trap their lair to give them this spell, then it is definitely worth a quickened spell.

Similarly, I believe there is an item that bumps the DR of a dragon up from x/magic to x/adamantine. Again, dragons might, at worst be arrogant, but they are far from suicidal. If there isn't a spell that copies the effect, just have it be some kind of epic feat (of which this dragon should have a large number). Upon looking at the OP, though, I see that this particular specimen seems to have it covered.

Finally, dragons that grapple are only half as effective as dragons that just unload all their attacks in combo with some of the special maneuver feats from Draconomicon/Savage Species (possibly barring some Multigrab options). A dragon should be aware that any party that comes at it is probably sporting freedom of movement, so quickened dispels and such. For that matter, a dragon of such size and strength should probably be packing antimagic field, since this spell will cripple parties, but will have no effect on the formidable mundane attacks of the dragon.

Finally, summoning extraplanar critters, especially with these extremely strong items, but there are many weaknesses of summoned creatures. The dragon could just lay down antimagic zones around it, ensuring that only a couple monoliths could get at it at once. Furthermore, coordinating that many monoliths will get extremely difficult. Flying would not serve the dragon very well in this instance, either, so really too many different types of elementals might not be as helpful as one would think.

EDIT: Quad ninja'd on the scintillating scales point. It bears mentioning, though. Tenacious Magic to the point about dispelling it. Seriously, if this dragon isn't benefiting from Epic Level Handbook feats and equips, then you really can probably knock a few off it's CR.

[SowZ]

SCINTILLATING SCALES. Any dragon that doesn't use this better either have some kind of Wisdom-slaying superiority complex or a really low intelligence. Any dragon that lived to great wyrm age has probably seen it's share of fights, and touch and ranged touch attacks completely undermine the sense of the threat the dragon poses. If a dragon doesn't automatically persist or contingency or buff trap their lair to give them this spell, then it is definitely worth a quickened spell.

Similarly, I believe there is an item that bumps the DR of a dragon up from x/magic to x/adamantine. Again, dragons might, at worst be arrogant, but they are far from suicidal. If there isn't a spell that copies the effect, just have it be some kind of epic feat (of which this dragon should have a large number). Upon looking at the OP, though, I see that this particular specimen seems to have it covered.

Finally, dragons that grapple are only half as effective as dragons that just unload all their attacks in combo with some of the special maneuver feats from Draconomicon/Savage Species (possibly barring some Multigrab options). A dragon should be aware that any party that comes at it is probably sporting freedom of movement, so quickened dispels and such. For that matter, a dragon of such size and strength should probably be packing antimagic field, since this spell will cripple parties, but will have no effect on the formidable mundane attacks of the dragon.

Finally, summoning extraplanar critters, especially with these extremely strong items, but there are many weaknesses of summoned creatures. The dragon could just lay down antimagic zones around it, ensuring that only a couple monoliths could get at it at once. Furthermore, coordinating that many monoliths will get extremely difficult. Flying would not serve the dragon very well in this instance, either, so really too many different types of elementals might not be as helpful as one would think.

While AMF is definitely a good idea, it should rarely see use since a Dragon can be killed in one turn bu any well built 20th level fighter.

[Phelix-Mu]

While AMF is definitely a good idea, it should rarely see use since a Dragon can be killed in one turn bu any well built 20th level fighter.

But the dragon could easily size up any such fighter when it sees the group (Sense Motive should apply, the dragon should have a crazy ton of skill points to throw at it). There is no such fighter in this party. Commence AMF. Don't have it active over your whole body, though, since I imagine it's big enough to have some gaps.

Fighter would also have to wade through the monoliths, too. There are feats for dragons which can counteract melee with decent effect, though I imagine superior optimization (dragon v fighter) would win.

On that note, this dragon has frittered away its class levels. Bloodscaled fury is cool, and I don't recognize everything, but it should at least be throwing something at a final sorcerer level or something else of the kind.

[NichG]

A DM pulling out all the stops for a CR 46 creature against an ECL 8 party is just a DM who wants to cause a TPK.

This thing can't be hurt by anyone it has ever met. There's no reason it would necessarily be uber-paranoid and use all powers available to it to optimize itself. Even putting that aside, there are many other reasons it might not use some tricks:
- Scintillating Scales may not exist in the DM's setting.
- This dragon never encountered that spell (given how long it has been asleep...)
- This dragon's magic is innate, and so its spell list is fixed due to nature not due to its own selections or choices.
- This dragon has a personal theme and has focused on that, leaving holes in its defenses.
- The metagame reason that the DM is simply unaware of these tricks or finds them distasteful
- The metagame reason that the DM is using a very high power creature at low optimization because its easier for them to build encounters quickly for their group that way rather than using a highly optimized, lower power creature.

[Qwertystop]

I just want to point out that an AMF is a 10' radius. When you've got a Great Wyrm, that'd probably be entirely inside the dragon, so... if you want to stop the people he swallows from using magic to get out, maybe?

[Drakevarg]

This thing can't be hurt by anyone it has ever met. There's no reason it would necessarily be uber-paranoid and use all powers available to it to optimize itself.

This is definitely a good point to make. At the time Ignis went to bed, essentially the only potential threats were:

Elementals - Mostly brute force, which dragons have in spades. Nothing less than a Monolith is going to hit Ignis outside of a critical, and he can easily drop one of those in one round with average melee rolls alone.

Drakes - Only organic beings older than dragons, and even the biggest and meanest of them is left in the dust by the time a dragon hits puberty.

Other Dragons - Pretty much any spells Ignis has would be from the point of view of fighting off other dragons. And since he was the biggest and meanest dragon on Mundum even before his nap, it's unlikely he would consider contingencies for spells above 6th level, since any dragon that got that big either left Mundum or got offed before they could become a threat.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This is definitely a good point to make. At the time Ignis went to bed, essentially the only potential threats were:

Elementals - Mostly brute force, which dragons have in spades. Nothing less than a Monolith is going to hit Ignis outside of a critical, and he can easily drop one of those in one round with average melee rolls alone.

Drakes - Only organic beings older than dragons, and even the biggest and meanest of them is left in the dust by the time a dragon hits puberty.

Other Dragons - Pretty much any spells Ignis has would be from the point of view of fighting off other dragons. And since he was the biggest and meanest dragon on Mundum even before his nap, it's unlikely he would consider contingencies for spells above 6th level, since any dragon that got that big either left Mundum or got offed before they could become a threat.

In this case, I would caution that a smart party that plans intelligently and executes their plan well may actually defeat this thing well before you might expect them to, using the methods described here or any other--not that that is a bad thing, of course, but be aware that expectations may differ from results.

[Spuddles]

Infinite deflection & exceptional deflection are useful vs ranged attacks, and all adult and older dragons can pick them up if they have unarmed strike&deflect arrow.

There are also a bunch of counter maneuvers that let you substitute an attack roll for your ac vs an attack. Those are virtually guaranteed to shut down a touch attack.

[yougi]

While AMF is definitely a good idea, it should rarely see use since a Dragon can be killed in one turn bu any well built 20th level fighter.

I guess I'm missing something, but... in an AMF, the dragon can still fly, not the fighter. The dragon is still immune to non-magical weapons, and the fighters' weapons are no more magical... How would that work?

It seems too obvious for me not to be missing something.

[TuggyNE]

I guess I'm missing something, but... in an AMF, the dragon can still fly, not the fighter. The dragon is still immune to non-magical weapons, and the fighters' weapons are no more magical... How would that work?

DR x/magic does not provide immunity to non-magic weapons, and turns off in an AMF (unlike most other DR forms).

[yougi]

DR x/magic does not provide immunity to non-magic weapons, and turns off in an AMF (unlike most other DR forms).

True, I should have said resistant. Still, taking out the first 27 points of every single attack is still a factor. Now, if that is turned off in AMF, that is a quite major thing I missed.

But still, flight? Isn't that quite major?

[SowZ]

I guess I'm missing something, but... in an AMF, the dragon can still fly, not the fighter. The dragon is still immune to non-magical weapons, and the fighters' weapons are no more magical... How would that work?

It seems too obvious for me not to be missing something.

The Fighter can likely deal the dragons HP in a round, built well. Maybe even two or three times over. I don't think dragons are immune to non-magical weapons in 3.5, I don't remember ever reading that. Though I have never attacked one with a non-magical weapon.

[Flickerdart]

The Fighter can likely deal the dragons HP in a round, built well. Maybe even two or three times over. I don't think dragons are immune to non-magical weapons in 3.5, I don't remember ever reading that. Though I have never attacked one with a non-magical weapon.
Are we still talking about the OP? Because an 8th level Fighter can't deal nearly enough damage to knock out a 60-HD dragon in one hit, unless he's cheesed out to ridiculous extremes.

[SowZ]

Are we still talking about the OP? Because an 8th level Fighter can't deal nearly enough damage to knock out a 60-HD dragon in one hit, unless he's cheesed out to ridiculous extremes.

I was speaking in more general terms about dragons not using AMF to engage high level warrior and about 20th level fighters. My contention was that a 20th level fighter can dish out enough damage to kill most dragons in one full attack if he is well built.

[TuggyNE]

True, I should have said resistant. Still, taking out the first 27 points of every single attack is still a factor.

Also, DR doesn't stack, so it's only 20 or 25 (in rage).


But still, flight? Isn't that quite major?

Yeah, flight is fairly significant, but to be completely fair, it's not all that difficult for the fighter to stay out of the AMF and still melee attacks: reach, for example, keeps the fly spell going neatly.

OTOH the OP's party probably wouldn't be able to pull that off anyway. :smallyuk:

[TypoNinja]

The Fighter can likely deal the dragons HP in a round, built well. Maybe even two or three times over. I don't think dragons are immune to non-magical weapons in 3.5, I don't remember ever reading that. Though I have never attacked one with a non-magical weapon.

A fighter should never get close.

Hold the Line from Complete Warrior lets you AoO someone entering a square you threaten, a dragon this old has all the reach ever.

Follow it up with Large and in Charge;


When you make a successful attack of opportunity against an opponent that is moving inside your threatened area, you can force the opponent back to the 5-foot space it was in before it provoked the attack of opportunity. After you hit with your attack of opportunity, make an opposed Strength check against your opponent. You gain a +4 bonus for each size category larger than your opponent you are, and an additional +1 bonus for every 5 points of damage you dealt with your attack of opportunity. If you win the opposed check, your opponent is pushed back 5 feet into the space it just left. An opponent you push cannot move any farther in this round.

From Draconomicon and you should be able to indefinitely keep melee away and doing nothing.

[Drakevarg]

Out of curiosity, how the heck does any fighter, even at 20th level, dish out 1916-2283 damage in one round? Let alone two or three times that.

[rweird]

Out of curiosity, how the heck does any fighter, even at 20th level, dish out 1916-2283 damage in one round?

Be a Charger, take Leaping Attack, Battle Jump, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Spirited Charge, Rino's Rush [Spell], use a lance while mounted, get a Valorous Weapon, get pounce.

PA for -20 AC, Leap at the dragon, pounce allows full attack, 5d8[+80 [*2 2-handed, *2 Battle Jump, *2 Headlong Rush]*2 [+100% PA damage from Leaping Attack]*(5{*3 Spirited Charge w/ lace, *2 Rino's Rush, *2 Valorous Weapon})]=5d8+800+[other mods*5] damage per hit, with haste you get 5 attacks/round, get a wand of extended wraithstrike to take the round before so your making touch attacks, this could deal over 4,000 damage in a round, it'd take 2 or 3 hits for 1916-2283 depending on other modifiers and the exact health.

[Drakevarg]

Be a Charger, take Leaping Attack, Battle Jump, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Spirited Charge, Rino's Rush [Spell], use a lance while mounted, get a Valorous Weapon, get pounce.

PA for -20 AC, Leap at the dragon, pounce allows full attack, 5d8[+80 [*2 2-handed, *2 Battle Jump, *2 Headlong Rush]*2 [+100% PA damage from Leaping Attack]*(5{*3 Spirited Charge w/ lace, *2 Rino's Rush, *2 Valorous Weapon})]=5d8+800+[other mods*5] damage per hit, with haste you get 5 attacks/round, get a wand of extended wraithstrike to take the round before so your making touch attacks, this could deal over 4,000 damage in a round, it'd take 2 or 3 hits for 1916-2283 depending on other modifiers and the exact health.

Yum, cheese. Now try again using only material from the books listed in my sig. Strict meatspace-only rule in my games. :smalltongue:

[rweird]

Yum, cheese. Now try again using only material from the books listed in my sig. Strict meatspace-only rule in my games. :smalltongue:

Drop Rhino's Rush, Valorous Weapons, Battle Jump, and Headlong Rush,

You do 3d8+240+[other mods*3] for each attack, which wouldn't be enough without other people spamming snake's swiftnesses, which would mean it'd take 2 rounds for something under half its CR to kill it.

Being a Fighter x/Spirit Lion Whirling Frenzy Barbarian y/Frenzied Berserker 10 could increase your damage PA to 3d8+480+[other mods*3], five attacks at that could do the required damage if all of them hit, and against touch AC that'd be an easy hit, with Frenzy and Whirling Frenzy active, it could be 7 attacks, which would give it an even higher success rate.

Happy now?

[Drakevarg]

Happy now?

"Spirit Lion Whirling Frenzy Barbarian"?

[MrRigger]

Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Divine, Whirling Frenzy ACF from Unearthed Arcana.

MrRigger

[Drakevarg]

Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Divine, Whirling Frenzy ACF from Unearthed Arcana.

MrRigger

I don't disbelieve you, but I can't find any ACFs in CDiv at all.

[DeltaEmil]

Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Divine, Whirling Frenzy ACF from Unearthed Arcana.The spirit lion totem ACF is in Complete Champion.

[MrRigger]

My mistake, sorry.

MrRigger

[rweird]

"Spirit Lion Whirling Frenzy Barbarian"?

Sorry, take the Feral Template (SS) instead, use LA buy off (UA). Actually probably would be more powerful anyways, or you could take Ranger 4/Wild Plains Outrider 3 instead of some fighter. That should work too.

[Drakevarg]

Sorry, take the Feral Template (SS) instead, use LA buy off (UA). Actually probably would be more powerful anyways, or you could take Ranger 4/Wild Plains Outrider 3 instead of some fighter. That should work too.

Interesting CharOp, though half the things you listed are variants I don't use, material I've either banned or probably would ban if I bothered to figure out what they do. 'course, I use enough house rules that trying to actually explain the exact boundaries you have to work in is just too much of a headache to bother.

[molten_dragon]

For example, I've estimated that it would take over 2 million 3rd level soldiers to match his CR. This is obviously just a CR comparison, as none of those soldiers could ever deal the slightest bit of damage to him considering:

AC 50
DR 7/--
DR 20/Magic and Adamantine (DR 25/Epic and Cold-Forged* while raging.)
Fast Healing 15

Actually, if that's the only protection he has, 2 million 3rd level fighters could easily kill him.

They'd want far shot and a composite longbow, along with a couple of frost arrows each (all easily within the wealth of a 3rd level character.

Their max range would be 1650 feet, meaning that roughly 340,000 could be in range to shoot him at a time. Since a 20 always hits, then roughly 17000 of them would hit him each round, dealing an average of 5.25 damage each (ignoring everything but the cold damage), for a total of almost 90,000 damage in a round. Now of course, he's probably going to go first, but he's not going to be able to kill 340,000 of them in a round.

Of course it's all silly, because the CR system breaks down with numbers that big. The 'double the number of creatures adds 2 to the CR' rule only works with relatively small numbers.

[absolmorph]

If I can get my hands on a physical copy of the Epic Level Handbook, Primal Elementals will be an option. And since the Sorceror's personal quest is to be the first being in history to successfully breach Omnia, the Plane of Magic (and point of origin of all of existence), I'll probably want to get it anyway since Prismatic and Force dragons are a thing.

Until then, however, they're stuck with Monoliths.
In case of emergency, they're in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/elementalPrimal.htm)
Which means you can also look at them prior to getting the ELH.

Also, if your party is mild or low optimization, and level 8, having a Great Wyrm with 20 class levels fully statted out is kind of uncalled for. I can understand having a rough outline of what it can do in a fight, but if the party fights it they're all but guaranteed to die.
You could probably get away with just having his breath weapon, space, and movement speeds written down.

[Drakevarg]

Also, if your party is mild or low optimization, and level 8, having a Great Wyrm with 20 class levels fully statted out is kind of uncalled for. I can understand having a rough outline of what it can do in a fight, but if the party fights it they're all but guaranteed to die.
You could probably get away with just having his breath weapon, space, and movement speeds written down.

Mostly did it for giggles. If they actually ran into him at this point I'd probably just say "Dragonfall, Everyone Dies."

[SowZ]

By the way, I was saying that a 20th level fighter could kill a dragon if he was in range.

Spirit Totem Barbarian isn't cheese. It gives swingy types a chance to do something they already should be able to do. I don't think leap attack or shock trooper are, either, if you don't read leap attack to mean you quadruple your Power Attack BAB. Valorous weapons and Battlejump probably are, though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Once again: Spirit Lion Totem is in Complete Champion, Whirling Frenzy is in Unearthed Arcana and the System Resource Document. It's a fantastic one level dip and gives melee much needed capabilities...

[rweird]

Interesting CharOp, though half the things you listed are variants I don't use, material I've either banned or probably would ban if I bothered to figure out what they do. 'course, I use enough house rules that trying to actually explain the exact boundaries you have to work in is just too much of a headache to bother.

Unless you ban Ranger or PrC classes, the second thing should work, for LA buy-off, you could polymorph into a Feral-[insert your race] and get pounce that way. Your group probably won't use either of these methods.

You asked how a fighter could do thousands of damage, i told you, you asked for how to do it with the sources you allowed, i told you. I wouldn't make a character like that in your game more likely, though it can be done. I mentioned this all because people were saying the dragon shouldn't go into melee, and that the fighter would kill him if he did, which is true with a fighter that doesn't have a full attack routine at 20th level like +5 Keen Flaming Burst Great-sword +37/+32/+27/+22 melee (2d6+23 plus 1d6 fire/17-20 x2 plus 2d10 fire) [against a Pit Fiend, this would hit maybe twice and deal around 15 non-lethal damage/hit].

For your group, unless people pull out Shivering Touch, it'd probably kill them at that level.

8192 of these 20th level fighters would be an appropriate encounter CR wise (assuming its ECL=CR), though a lot fewer could kill it assuming the dragon is played like a brute with a breath weapon.