Pun Pun?

[gr8artist]

What is it? A class, a character build, or a concept?

[Rogue Shadows]

What is it? A class, a character build, or a concept?

A character build that takes advantage of an oversight in the design of one specific monster ability to become all-powerful, all-knowing, and theoretically capable of taking the Dungeon Master on in a fight. Certainly he mops the floor with anything that has ever been statted out (including most gods, monsters, and yon Wizard 20 who thinks he's so great) and quite a few things that haven't been (notably, the Lady of Pain and Ao).

Technically, Pun Pun can by anything reptilian, reptile-like (including dragons), and anything that can shapeshift into a reptilian or reptile-like creature (including anyone with access to polymorph or the like). However, because it's funny, available from level 1, and is LA +0, Pun Pun is a kobold.

[Morcleon]

A character build that takes advantage of an oversight in the design of one specific monster ability to ascend to divinity.

As well has having every ability in the game, and infinite everything. :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

Even crazier, Pun-Pun is able to get abilities from other games, due to slight wording problems and some crossovers.

[Rogue Shadows]

As well has having every ability in the game, and infinite everything. :smallbiggrin:

Which he gets through that one ability. It's all Manipulate Form gone horribly, horribly wrong.


Even crazier, Pun-Pun is able to get abilities from other games, due to slight wording problems and some crossovers.

Craziest of all? He can probably make stuff up on the fly, again due to slight wording problems.

[Sir Swindle89]

Technically he can have any ability in the game or not but apparently THAT is were poeple draw the line on cheese :smalltongue:

Edit: swordsaged

[Chess435]

A character build that takes advantage of an oversight in the design of one specific monster ability to ascend to divinity.

This. Not just divinity, however, but the ability to pretty much to anything and everything, using arbitrarily high ability scores and the ability to give himself the ability to give himself any ability he/she/it can think of.

Edit: By Chuck Norris' beard, I was about quadruple ninja'd.

[Rogue Shadows]

This. Not just divinity, however, but the ability to pretty much to anything and everything, using arbitrarily high ability scores and the ability to give himself the ability to give himself any ability he/she/it can think of.

Well, when I said "divinity," I meant in the sense of "insanely omnipotent unstoppable being," not "Divine Rank X."

I'll edit for clarity

[Morcleon]

Which he gets through that one ability. It's all Manipulate Form gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Yep! :smallbiggrin:

I once had a game where Pun Pun existed, but was an overdeity who didn't do anything but kill those who tried infinite loops before they were born.

[toapat]

Yep! :smallbiggrin:

I once had a game where Pun Pun existed, but was an overdeity who didn't do anything but kill those who tried infinite loops before they were born.

wait, doesnt that Portfolio specifically require him to kill himself?

[Morcleon]

wait, doesnt that Portfolio specifically require him to kill himself?

Everyone else. :smalltongue:

[Rogue Shadows]

Yep! :smallbiggrin:

I once had a game where Pun Pun existed, but was an overdeity who didn't do anything but kill those who tried infinite loops before they were born.

I've done that! In fact, for my Rebuilt pantheon (in my sig), I like to imagine that Pun Pun is the overdeity.

I also once had my players encounter him (not in the "fighting" sense, they just met a kobold traveller who hired them for a quest because "he was busy elsewhere").

Eh was a pretty cool guy. He killed the orcs and doesn't afraid of anything.


wait, doesnt that Portfolio specifically require him to kill himself?

Yes, but Pun Pun is such that he can kill himself and still exist.

Pun Pun IS.

Or in more general terms,

A Rock So Big (Ex): At-will as an immediate action, Pun Pun can create a rock so big that even he can't lift it over his head.
Lift Anything (Ex): There is nothing so big that Pun Pun cannot lift it over his head.

Also it's possible that by the point that Pun Pun was an overdeity, he'd stopped infinite looping, once he'd given himself an arbitrarily large number of Divine Ranks (Say, 10,000).

[ko_sct]

wait, doesnt that Portfolio specifically require him to kill himself?

Sure it means he has to kill himself before he his born.

But when you are already an over-god and transcend everything in the game, how is the fact that he died by his own hand before he his born going to hinder him at all ? :smalltongue:

[Answerer]

he'd given himself an arbitrarily large number of Divine Ranks (Say, 10,000).
Pun-pun, a meme as much as a build, would clearly have a DvR of 9,001.

[Guizonde]

Sure it means he has to kill himself before he his born.

But when you are already an over-god and transcend everything in the game, how is the fact that he died by his own hand before he his born going to hinder him at all ? :smalltongue:

pun-pun eats paradoxes for breakfast, i don't think he's worried about another one. i mean, i'm sure that drinking orange juice and brushing his teeth with mint toothpaste doesn't bother him at all.

... this is gonna turn into a pun-pun facts thread. isn't it?


edit: here's the build, thanks to 1d4chan neckbeards and fa/tg/guys (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pun-Pun)

[ahenobarbi]

Pun-pun, a meme as much as a build, would clearly have a DvR of 9,001.

I'd guess 55378008 :smalltongue:

[Morcleon]

pun-pun eats paradoxes for breakfast, i don't think he's worried about another one. i mean, i'm sure that drinking orange juice and brushing his teeth with mint toothpaste doesn't bother him at all.

... this is gonna turn into a pun-pun facts thread. isn't it?

One does not simply punish infinite loops. :smallwink::smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Let's not forget his assistant, Nut-Pun the squirrel.

[Morph Bark]

A Rock So Big (Ex): At-will as an immediate action, Pun Pun can create a rock so big that even he can't lift it over his head.
Lift Anything (Ex): There is nothing so big that Pun Pun cannot lift it over his head.

Pun-Pun: So powerful, he can beat paradoxes.

Not even I can do that. Wheatley can, but that's about the only thing he can do.

[Guizonde]

Pun-Pun: So powerful, he can beat paradoxes.

Not even I can do that. Wheatley can, but that's about the only thing he can do.

pun-pun can optimize perfection. (taken to its logical extreme, pun-pun's build does in fact allow it)

he could make wheatley make sense, but he finds him lulzy

[Sacrieur]

Well yes, and no.

Pun-pun can become arbitrarily strong, but not necessarily infinitely strong. He can abuse planes with a faster time flow (slower to everyone else) to increase his strength at a faster rate (compared to the material plane).

So it does not quite hit paradoxical levels of power.

At least until someone finds a loophole that would allow him to increase his stats to an infinite level from an arbitrarily high level. I'd start looking at time spells to see if you can't cheese them into forcing an infinity to pass within an infinitesimal amount of time.

[Morph Bark]

Well yes, and no.

Pun-pun can become arbitrarily strong, but not necessarily infinitely strong. He can abuse planes with a faster time flow (slower to everyone else) to increase his strength at a faster rate (compared to the material plane).

So it does not quite hit paradoxical levels of power.

Theoretically, he could make a plane where time flows infinitely faster than on the Material Plane, go there, come back one Material day later and have infinitely ability scores.

Only theoretically, of course, but considering Pun-Puns existence is also only theoretical, I'd deem that an okay combination.

[Guizonde]

Well yes, and no.

Pun-pun can become arbitrarily strong, but not necessarily infinitely strong. He can abuse planes with a faster time flow (slower to everyone else) to increase his strength at a faster rate (compared to the material plane).

So it does not quite hit paradoxical levels of power.

At least until someone finds a loophole that would allow him to increase his stats to an infinite level from an arbitrarily high level. I'd start looking at time spells to see if you can't cheese them into forcing an infinity to pass within an infinitesimal amount of time.

according to the link i provided, it's an infinity loop. so wouldn't adding more trope work? it counts as a free action too i believe, so no need for extradimensional tampering. right?

[tyckspoon]

according to the link i provided, it's an infinity loop. so wouldn't adding more trope work? it counts as a free action too i believe, so no need for extradimensional tampering. right?

If it doesn't happen automatically and instantly, it's probably not a true infinite loop. The method given there results in arbitrarily high scores, but not infinite ones (the distinction is largely meaningless in practical terms- basically, using the technique in that link, Pun-Puns ability scores are as high as he wants, but they're always a single discrete number, which is non-infinite.) There are ways to go full-on infinite; I think one of the easiest is using the Omniscifer technique (establish a feedback loop that does infinite damage to yourself combined with a Delay Death-like effect that means you can't be killed by HP damage) plus the Pain Mastery feat from Savage Species, which increases your Strength by 2 for every 50 points of damage you suffer.. which normally is bloody useless, because you'll be dead long before you get any meaningful benefit from it. It's pretty nice when you can survive smacking yourself in the head for infinite damage, tho.

[VGLordR2]

Craziest of all? He can probably make stuff up on the fly, again due to slight wording problems.

People tout this around a lot, but he can't. He is allowed to grant himself an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability. All of these are defined terms in the game. Everything that is an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability is noted as such. Using the same logic, a player would be able to create any feat he wanted. Obviously, this isn't how the system is designed to work. Although, since it's Pun-Pun, this doesn't end up making much of a difference.



At least until someone finds a loophole that would allow him to increase his stats to an infinite level from an arbitrarily high level.

Pun-Pun has infinite ability scores. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:UNgv4fOm9M8J:www.minmaxboards.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D2705.0+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

[Togo]

People tout this around a lot, but he can't. He is allowed to grant himself an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability. All of these are defined terms in the game. Everything that is an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability is noted as such. Using the same logic, a player would be able to create any feat he wanted. Obviously, this isn't how the system is designed to work. Although, since it's Pun-Pun, this doesn't end up making much of a difference.

Well if you want to get technical, he can't get divine ranks either, since they aren't an ex, su or sp ability, and he can't ice assassin a god without having a god's body part to hand.

[tyckspoon]

Well if you want to get technical, he can't get divine ranks either, since they aren't an ex, su or sp ability, and he can't ice assassin a god without having a god's body part to hand.

All that requires is convincing, coercing, or tricking a god into giving you a suitable part of its body. That should not be terribly difficult to do when you have arbitrarily high or infinite ability scores and associated skills, especially assuming Deities & Demigods-type gods.

[Rogue Shadows]

Well if you want to get technical, he can't get divine ranks either, since they aren't an ex, su or sp ability, and he can't ice assassin a god without having a god's body part to hand.

After Pun Pun gives himself 9001 in all stats, he can go and collect said body parts himself if he really wants DvR.

[nedz]

All that requires is convincing, coercing, or tricking a god into giving you a suitable part of its body. That should not be terribly difficult to do when you have arbitrarily high or infinite ability scores and associated skills, especially assuming Deities & Demigods-type gods.

He would just need a sufficiently high Diplomacy skill, so that one's easy.

[Eldan]

Well if you want to get technical, he can't get divine ranks either, since they aren't an ex, su or sp ability, and he can't ice assassin a god without having a god's body part to hand.

It's a material component. It's automatically in a spell component pouch.

Yes, you already have a part of every god, as soon as you buy a component pouch.

Alternatively, Pun-pun gives himself Eschew material.

[Guizonde]

It's a material component. It's automatically in a spell component pouch.

Yes, you already have a part of every god, as soon as you buy a component pouch.

Alternatively, Pun-pun gives himself Eschew material.

seeing his stat scores, couldn't he just, you know... harvest 'em fresh?

[ahenobarbi]

Yes, you already have a part of every god, as soon as you buy a component pouch.

You keep all existing artifacts in there too :smallwink:

[Venusaur]

Just use the epic feat Ignore Material Components.

[Togo]

It's a material component. It's automatically in a spell component pouch.

Yes, you already have a part of every god, as soon as you buy a component pouch.

Alternatively, Pun-pun gives himself Eschew material.

Divine relics cost less than a gp?

The epic feat could work... But then you run into portfolio sense, where the god detects your attempt to create a duplicate of him up to two weeks before you do it. If you can't defeat a strongly motivated deity, then it's a weakness in the build. If you can defeat a strongly motivated deity, then it's an unecessary part of the build.

Assuming that gods in your gameworld actually have material form, rather than having to produce avatars.

[Venusaur]

Divine relics cost less than a gp?

The epic feat could work... But then you run into portfolio sense, where the god detects your attempt to create a duplicate of him up to two weeks before you do it. If you can't defeat a strongly motivated deity, then it's a weakness in the build. If you can defeat a strongly motivated deity, then it's an unecessary part of the build.

Assuming that gods in your gameworld actually have material form, rather than having to produce avatars.

You don't need to copy a powerful deity. If you make a lesser deity with 10 ranks, give out those ranks, and recall them, the deity won't notice because their portfolio sense only works if it effects at least 500 people.

[tyckspoon]

Divine relics cost less than a gp?


Specifically, Eschew Materials/your spell component pouch allows you to ignore or have on hand any spell component that does not have a listed price. It is an oft-noted quirk that this makes no distinction between components that have no price because they are valueless (most of the random junk/bad jokes that makes up most material components) and components that have no price because they are invaluable..

[The Bandicoot]

I wonder if anyone has ever written out a character backstory for pun-pun. I mean one that actually makes sense? And I mean the original 5th or 7th(cant remember) level ice-assassin/manipulate form based one.

[Eldan]

Divine relics cost less than a gp? .

Well... expensive components usually have their prices named. As in "diamonds worth 5000 gold pieces" or somesuch. As it is not written as "a piece of a god worth millions", it can be assumed to be in fact a cheap component.

[GreatWyrmGold]

As I saw in a sig: That's RAW for you. 100% legal, 110% silly.

[TuggyNE]

As I saw in a sig: That's RAW for you. 100% legal, 110% silly.

Yeah I love that saying. :smallcool:

[Killer Angel]

A character build that takes advantage of an oversight in the design of one specific monster ability to become all-powerful, all-knowing, and theoretically capable of taking the Dungeon Master on in a fight. Certainly he mops the floor with anything that has ever been statted out (including most gods, monsters, and yon Wizard 20 who thinks he's so great) and quite a few things that haven't been (notably, the Lady of Pain and Ao).

To be fair, the first incarnation of Pun Pun, could be beaten (or better: stopped before ascension) by the Omnifiscer.

[Socratov]

To be fair, the first incarnation of Pun Pun, could be beaten (or better: stopped before ascension) by the Omnifiscer.

But only when the omnifiscer becomes an omnifiscer before Pun-Pun ascends, after that it's moot anyway... although, when Pun-Pun has ascended he can alter reality into making it so that he's ascended since the dawn of time/reality/whatever...

[HunterOfJello]

Part of the explanation of Pun-Pun requires an explanation of Theoretical Optimization. People spent a long time in the early years trying to do everything they could to create the post powerful character possible. All sorts of methods were employed and comparisons were made to create this End-All Be-All build.

After quite some time, the build for Pun-Pun came out. It was criticized, checked over, improved upon, take apart, put back together, and was eventually purified into the form that you can read through today.

Pun-Pun at level 1 is the final result of all theoretical optimization. It is the most powerful character that can exist, period. True ultimate power is reached by Pun-Pun as a level 1 character. The only way to beat Pun-Pun is through Deus Ex Machina. That's it. Only the DM or an omnipotent (and unstatted) God from one of a few settings has the ability to stop him. He is otherwise unstoppable and the ultimately powerful fictional character ever created. That, is Pun-Pun.

[Killer Angel]

But only when the omnifiscer becomes an omnifiscer before Pun-Pun ascends, after that it's moot anyway...

Oh, yes, now it's no more possible even that, given that Pun Pun can ascend at 1st level, and the Omnifiscer is slower...

[HunterOfJello]

Oh, yes, now it's no more possible even that, given that Pun Pun can ascend at 1st level, and the Omnifiscer is slower...

The methods to ascend Pun-Pun have also been improved so that they can be done in as few rounds as possible by using Time Stop and psionics to manipulate the amount of time everything takes to occur.

[Togo]

Pun-Pun at level 1 is the final result of all theoretical optimization. It is the most powerful character that can exist, period. True ultimate power is reached by Pun-Pun as a level 1 character. The only way to beat Pun-Pun is through Deus Ex Machina. That's it. Only the DM or an omnipotent (and unstatted) God from one of a few settings has the ability to stop him. He is otherwise unstoppable and the ultimately powerful fictional character ever created. That, is Pun-Pun.

And then the people who weren't heavily into theoretical optimisation put their heads togeather and tried to work out how to stop him (or any other such character). They came up with 4 distinct methods.

1) SLAP - statistical likelihood of alternative Pun-Pun
Basically the principle that any universe that allows Pun-Puns in going to have characters of similar power to help take him out.

2) Timetravel
Exploiting the fascinating property of time travel that everyone who ever tries to stop Pun-pun from ascending arrives at exactly the same time, including Pun-pun himself

3) Reality hacking
Changing the nature of the universe to subvert the rules Pun-Pun relies on.

4) Abitrarily large events
Using large campaign world features that obey non-standard rules, and hitting Pun-Pun with them. Includes non-physical deities, The Spire, the Starbeast crystal sphere trick, and others.

Killing off Pun-Pun, or any other TO character, isn't as hard as it sounds, because generally speaking the game is greater than the character sheet, and Pun-Pun, for all his power, is a TO exercise and thus based on a character sheet.

I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall; men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air; yet, their strength, and their speed, are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong, or as fast, as *you* can be. Morpheus, The Matrix

[Aharon]

@SLAP
No. You can't be of similar power, you need the same or greater power, which can be reached only by the same ways - you have pun-pun again.

@Time Travel
What property would that be? Time travel sends you to whichever time you want, IIRC.

@Reality Hacking
How?

@Arbitrarily large events
Could you elaborate, please?

[nedz]

@Reality Hacking
How?


Go back in time and kill the first/all Zodar Sarrukh.
No Manipulate Form = No Pun Pun.

[Togo]

Sarrukh, not Zodar.

Arguably, that's already happened, since they're an extinct race. Which begs the question of how the kobold became 'familiar' with the form.

[willpell]

Okay, Pun-Pun I know, but who's Wheatley?


He would just need a sufficiently high Diplomacy skill, so that one's easy.

"Friends, Olympians, Countrymen, lend me your ears"?

[nedz]

Sarrukh, not Zodar.

Arguably, that's already happened, since they're an extinct race. Which begs the question of how the kobold became 'familiar' with the form.

Oops — fixed that, thanks.

[Togo]

@SLAP
No. You can't be of similar power, you need the same or greater power, which can be reached only by the same ways - you have pun-pun again.

nah, 6000+ people of vaguely similar power can still cause him a headache. Standard Sarrukh are a favourite choice, since we've established that they cna give eachother any power that Pun-pun has, and there is an entire race of them with a lot more skill and expereince in doing so.


@Time Travel
What property would that be? Time travel sends you to whichever time you want, IIRC.

Sure, but it sends anyone else to the same point.

Say I see Pun-Pun ascending, and run, and time travel to some other point. I then spend upwards of 1000 years assembling a vast army in a Pun-Pun free world, and send out scouts to other futures or pasts that are threatended, and then we all go back in time to wipe out all Kobolds. Pun-Pun can turn up to try and stop us, but he can't block the attempt.

One tongue in cheek account saw everyone who Pun-Pun had ever annoyed all turning up to kill him at the point of his ascension. Since that was several trillion people, the resulting singularity wiped out both the original kobold and the entire planet he was standing on.


@Reality Hacking
How?.

Not my favourite method, I must admit. Some people reckon you can manipute the basic laws of the universe within the rules, but I'm shakey as to how.


@Arbitrarily large events
Could you elaborate, please?

There are some large features of campaign worlds that simply override the normal rules. The Spire prevents the functioning of all magic, life, and physical laws if you get too near it, for example, which would certainly wipe out Pun-Pun's (ex) abilities if you could somehow get him near it. Several campaign worlds have overdeities, either formally or implied. I proposed a method involving porting over aspects of the spelljammer universe from 2nd ed, and getting a starbeast to smash the crystal sphere in which Pun-Pun dwels. You can't predict it, because you can't divine the actions of a starbeast. And as soon as it happens, all planar travel is impossible, and Pun-Pun is lost into the philostogen, never to return by any means short of DM fiat. Of course, your entire campaign world is also dead, but hey, can't make an omlette without smashing eggs and loosing the contents forever into the void.

It should be noted that these attempts are not TO attempts, and don't follow TO conventions, but hey, not everyone is a gamist. Narrative players need to have fun too.

[Aharon]

@Togo
As per Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, at least 60 Sarrukh liches still exist.

Apart from that, familiarity isn't a factor in the TO-approach, and denying forms because of unfamiliarity is in the "constant spellbook destruction" realm of trying to prohibit the players from reaching power.

@Time Travel
Precluded by DocRoc's Far Realms trick. The far realms are timeless. Pun-Pun uses this property to send millions of copies of himself to any point in time.

@The Spire
No, (ex) abilities are unaffected.

@non-gamist
D'oh. Disregard my rule-based arguments, please :smallredface:

[Togo]

@Togo
As per Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, at least 60 Sarrukh liches still exist.

Apart from that, familiarity isn't a factor in the TO-approach.

Sure, but none of that stops SLAP. If Pun-Pun has tricks, he'll be facing other people already using them.


@Time Travel
Precluded by DocRoc's Far Realms trick. The far realms are timeless. Pun-Pun uses this property to send millions of copies of himself to any point in time.

SLAPed
Where he meets billions of copies of other people who, seeing millions of pun-puns arrive in their own time, decided to do the same.

Note that copying yourself across all time and space is a pretty good way to get the orignal killed.


@The Spire
No, (ex) abilities are unaffected.

Basic chemistry and physics is effected. Is there a reason to assume (ex) abilities are immune? Even if they are immune in one setting, there's no particular reason why they wouldn't be vulnerable in another.


@non-gamist
D'oh. Disregard my rule-based arguments, please :smallredface:

You're making entirely valid points. We're just approaching from differenet ends. From the TO perspective he's unbeatable. From a narrative point of view, he's merely a logic problem.

(I've left out the really 'out there' solutions, like importing rules from other role-playing games, even though some 1st ed campaign worlds would explicitly allow it. )

[Morph Bark]

As for the "Reality Hacking" plan, it might very well be so that taking out the stuff that allows for Pun-Pun to come to be doesn't take Pun-Pun himself out, because at that point he already exists and can create ways for himself to continue existing. The Reality Hacking just would make sure there couldn't be more than one Pun-Pun, turning him into an Immortal and make the McLeods sad.

[Talya]

Okay, Pun-Pun I know, but who's Wheatley?




I'm not sure the relevance, here, but...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/Wheatley.png

This is Wheatley.

[killem2]

Pun Pun reminds me of going through Chrono Trigger, then getting to the play the same game again, with the same high level characters, and again and again, and again.

lol

[willpell]

This is Wheatley.

I am left no wiser....

[Eldan]

I am left no wiser....

A character from Portal 2. He's an AI designed with the purpose to be absolutely useless at anything like planning, coming up with ideas or running things.

[Guizonde]

A character from Portal 2. He's an AI designed with the purpose to be absolutely useless at anything like planning, coming up with ideas or running things.

like any flaw, you can gain stupid high-level feats as a counterbalance.

rampant idiocy renders him immune to paradoxes, the only thing that (easily) frags a rampant AI. i said pun-pun eats paradoxes, being so paradoxically powerful he creates them and negates them by himself, whereas wheatley is an omniscient AI so stupid it defies logic.

sorry you didn't get the throwaway gag.

[Seer_of_Heart]

So what you're telling me is that if I made a rob-rob a robot warforged kobold and put wheatly's AI in it once he ascended he could beat pun-pun :smallbiggrin:.

[Togo]

sorry you didn't get the throwaway gag.

Well at least he'll get cake....

[Guizonde]

So what you're telling me is that if I made a rob-rob a robot warforged kobold and put wheatly's AI in it once he ascended he could beat pun-pun :smallbiggrin:.

by munchkinning idiocy? that makes so little sense it could work! although my brain hurts trying to figure it out... i hope i'm not dm'ing that attempt:smalleek:

[Seer_of_Heart]

by munchkinning idiocy? that makes so little sense it could work! although my brain hurts trying to figure it out... i hope i'm not dm'ing that attempt:smalleek:

I thought the point was to make as little sense as possible, I think I'm winning!