Is this as horrible as I think it is?

[Chilingsworth]

My DM's XP earning and spending rules, (also crafting and WBL) that is:

They are as follows:

Xp is awarded as per pathfinder (i.e. set amount per given challenge, regardless of level.) Also, pathfinder (I think) level points.

Crafting and Spell components are done as per 3.5 (i.e. they cost xp and often not insignificant amounts.)

on the WBL side: selling things yeilds 1/4 their value, to encourage us to "use what we find, or craft our own stuff," and gives out less goodies than is indicated in WBL. Also, there's no "magic mart" as such, so even if we had the money to buy stuff, we often have trouble finding what we want. Crafting is supposed to be easier because he's opened up the crafting feats to nonspellcasters (allowing the spell prereqs to slide and replacing the CL prereqs with HD prereqs.)

On top of this, he has the habit of leveling us up before we actually have enough xp to have earned the level -- and not rectifying it. This shuts down crafting all together, since you can't spend xp if it would give you a total below the minimum for your level.

And no, any conceiveable method of getting around xp costs will not be allowed. Nor will wealth making cheese.

I will say that these things aren't a particular inconvience for my characters (I tend to play spellcasters, and thus have minimal gear requirements.) They do prevent me from even considering crafting anything for anyone ever again, though.

As a side note, in this world, Gate, Shapechange, Polymorph, and Polymorph any Object don't exist.

Finally, this hasn't really made the game unfun to play, yet. I'm just worried about higher levels. Basically, unless the DM is generous with NPC gear (which he might be, but I don't want to have to count on) our noncasters will be screwed.

Am I wrong in my assessment?

[Juntao112]

The solution to your problem is simpler than you may think.

Just wait until the non-casters die, and then loot their bodies. When the other players roll new characters, they get to bring in new equipment and still have access to their old gear.

[Edge of Dreams]

What you're telling me is that the GM wants you to craft stuff (as evidenced by allowing non-casters to craft and his comments), but he's messing with XP in a way that makes it nearly impossible to craft stuff.

Have you tried just pointing this out to him? Talking about it calmly and rationally?

It sounds like if you fix the XP issues, the game will be fine.

Maybe suggest to him that if he says "You all go up a level" that he should allow you all to immediately change your XP totals to new level + some amount, so you can craft stuff.

[Chess435]

Honestly, I think this one falls under "talk to your DM". If all else fails, there's always VoP. (Try to get a homebrew one, like Drolyt's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) approved rather than the BoED version, though.)

Edit: I guess you could also play an artificer for the craft reserve.

[Chilingsworth]

What you're telling me is that the GM wants you to craft stuff (as evidenced by allowing non-casters to craft and his comments), but he's messing with XP in a way that makes it nearly impossible to craft stuff.

Have you tried just pointing this out to him? Talking about it calmly and rationally?

It sounds like if you fix the XP issues, the game will be fine.

Maybe suggest to him that if he says "You all go up a level" that he should allow you all to immediately change your XP totals to new level + some amount, so you can craft stuff.

I have already tried talking to him. I specifically pointed out how Pathfinder does these things and why. He said he might do something to adress the issue, but he hasn't yet.


The solution to your problem is simpler than you may think.

Just wait until the non-casters die, and then loot their bodies. When the other players roll new characters, they get to bring in new equipment and still have access to their old gear.

Ha Ha... no. New characters come in with starting gear (and the party has to equip them), or we lose an amount of treasure equivilant to the value of the new character's gear (basically, the player can spend up to his old character's share of the treasure on gear for his new character.)

[Chilingsworth]

Honestly, I think this one falls under "talk to your DM". If all else fails, there's always VoP. (Try to get a homebrew one, like Drolyt's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) approved rather than the BoED version, though.)

Edit: I guess you could also play an artificer for the craft reserve.

As I said, I have been talking to him. As for VoP That would be another "Ha, Ha... no." Situation. (neither BoED nor BoVD is allowed, also our current campaign is an evil one, the Way of the Wicked adventure path, to be exact. This makes the lack of BoVD slightly annoying.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your DM has shown an unfortunate lack of understanding regarding these issues.

Yes, the mundanes will be just as screwed as you suspect unless the DM is far more competent than average.

If it doesn't clash with where you were going to go with your character, I'd suggest building your caster as a serious buffing machine to support your party in the areas that are normally covered by gear. War-weaver (HoB) on a god wizard is excellent for this.

A low-wealth (in the sense of readily accessable, liquid assets), low-magic (in the sense of prevalence and variety, but not power) game -is- doable, but it takes a DM with much greater than average system mastery to actually implement.

[Chess435]

As I said, I have been talking to him. As for VoP That would be another "Ha, Ha... no." Situation. (neither BoED nor BoVD is allowed, also our current campaign is an evil one, the Way of the Wicked adventure path, to be exact. This makes the lack of BoVD slightly annoying.)

Hmmmm, yeah I'd say you're pretty low on options. I guess you either need to get a whole party of item-independent characters (read: casters) or just grin and bear it until you can get a new DM.

[Chilingsworth]

Your DM has shown an unfortunate lack of understanding regarding these issues.

Yes, the mundanes will be just as screwed as you suspect unless the DM is far more competent than average.

If it doesn't clash with where you were going to go with your character, I'd suggest building your caster as a serious buffing machine to support your party in the areas that are normally covered by gear. War-weaver (HoB) on a god wizard is excellent for this.

A low-wealth (in the sense of readily accessable, liquid assets), low-magic (in the sense of prevalence and variety, but not power) game -is- doable, but it takes a DM with much greater than average system mastery to actually implement.

Unfortunately, my character path is set. I'm a wizard/beguiler going for ultimate magus. I tend to focus on debuffing the enemy. When I get the chance, I'll definately learn some buff spells.

As for other characters:

An evil cleric (battlecleric-ish)
An unarmed swordsage (I think he's planing to multiclass into crusader and going for master of nine, also has access to some hombrew disciplines my DM made.)
A rogue with a level of warblade.
we had a dread necromancer with tomb tainted soul, but he died. His (possibly temporary) replacement character will be a warblade archer (using a homebrew archery discipline I know next to nothing about.) Also, this player often fails to show up, due to rl issues.
We had a druid, but that player and the dread necro's player had a falling out. We haven't seen him since.

Also, we have the ability to found one or more evil organisations. The DM might let me staff mine with artificers (I want to and have gotten approval for found a DARPA-like organization for the evil empire we're trying to build.) They'll be ridiculously low level, but they might be able to furnish us with some potions and scrolls, anyway. Plus alchemical items.

I actually like this DM (not interested in a new one.) He's actually very competent (in every matter save this one.) I think he's just still alittle shell shocked from the characters we played in the Savage Tides campaign. (Not that they were particularly overpowered, other than the sorcerer incantrix, but he built that one for the player!) And wants us to think of our items as something more than disposable trinkets.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Make sure that either overland flight or mass fly are on your list of buffs to aquire. I'd even go so far as to port one or the other to your beguiler list when UM gives that ability. Ghost touch weapon is another good one for just-in-case situations.

Btw, is planar binding/ally just as banned as gate? If they're not, and you're willing to cut a reasonable deal with an outsider, then such extraplanar minion/companions can be an absolute godsend. Beware treachery from such creatures though.

Edit: I didn't mean to imply that your DM is a bad or incompetent one, just that the actions given suggest that he either doesn't understand or is intentionally disregarding the normal implications of WBL. The former is a problem, though it's one that can be overcome relatively easily, while the latter can be a problem unless the DM is savvy enough to make sure it's not.

[Chilingsworth]

Neither planar binding not planar ally are banned. I fully intend to make use of planar binding. Planar ally is tough to use, though, because of the xp cost. Also, I'll be a spell level or two behind on my wizard side. (I took wizard as my first level for rp reasons, also I want those 5th level beguiler spells more than I want timely access to 9th level spells, since the best ones are either banned (shapechange, gate), prohibitively expensive to use (wish, anything else that costs xp), don't fit my playstyle (timestop) or will be available to the cleric (astral projection.)) I'll still get 9th level spells... at 20th character level.

Also, I definately intend to learn overland flight. It wont help my party, though since its a personal spell. Mass fly is of rounds/level duration, right? Still will be useful by the time I can get it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Overland flight is personal? *looks it up*

Huh, so it is. Why do I keep making that mistake? :smallconfused: Mass fly still works.

Lesser planar binding is only a 5th level spell. 6hd isn't much at that level, but you're not limited in how many bound minions you have (except by DM fiat and/or your willingness and ability to make the necessary deals). Using the planar ally spell's gp figures for suitable monetary compensation for services rendered should be pretty close to appropriate.

Binding a midgard dwarf and offering him suitable cash for both the rendering of a service and the item created could bypass the DM's no magic mart setup. Your burning spell-slots and paying a premium surcharge for greater access to magic items would make it a much less bitter pill to swallow than simply finding a guy in the nearest large settlement and shelling out the listed market price. The fact he can hit you with a curse if you try to abuse him could also help make it more palatable.

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm, I hadn't thought of binding a midgard dwarf. Unfortunately, they have 8hd, so I'd need regular planar binding to do it. Also, they're native outsiders, so if they exist at all, they aren't extraplanar. Can non extraplanar Outsiders be called?

[Flickerdart]

You can call any Outsiders. Even 20th level Monks.

[Chilingsworth]

You can call any Outsiders. Even 20th level Monks.

yeah, best way to turn gate into a summon messageboy spell.:smalltongue:

Still, point taken, and good to know.

[TuggyNE]

Hmm, I hadn't thought of binding a midgard dwarf. Unfortunately, they have 8hd, so I'd need regular planar binding to do it. Also, they're native outsiders, so if they exist at all, they aren't extraplanar. Can non extraplanar Outsiders be called?

I don't think so, given that the purpose of the spell is stated (in lesser planar binding, but not negated by the others) as "to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap".

[Flickerdart]

I don't think so, given that the purpose of the spell is stated (in lesser planar binding, but not negated by the others) as "to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap".
The target is specifically listed as "One elemental or outsider" with no requirements that it be extraplanar. The planetouched and Monks are both core, so non-extraplanar outsiders still existed.

Extraplanar isn't a static subtype, anyway - any creature not on its home plane gets it. If you tried to lure a succubus from the Abyss, she wouldn't be extrapanar when you declare her as the target.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sounds like a game to play a caster in. Possibly with 3E Vow of Poverty, if it is available.

You shouldn't be worried about higher levels, at least if you make a caster. If you make a noncaster you won't have to worry about it either, though, because your character probably won't make it there. :smallsmile:

PF's xp system is truly moronic, but an overpowered spellcasting party can exploit it quite well. In 3E, if you use broken spells and tactics to defeat monsters well above your ECL, you get less xp for it. In PF, you get the same big chunk. So the game is basically encouraging you to break things as best you can and then farm higher CR monsters to power level. Brilliant!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sounds like a game to play a caster in. Possibly with 3E Vow of Poverty, if it is available.

It's not, and he is. This thread was created out of concern for his fellow players rather than concern for his own character, and I think that deserves some recognition.

@ chillingsworth:

Kudos good sir.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's not, and he is. This thread was created out of concern for his fellow players rather than concern for his own character, and I think that deserves some recognition.

Fair enough, but if they won't listen to his advice, not much he can do. They're probably better off learning about the "balance" of D&D now and how the DM's rules throw it even further off kilter and discover for themselves they'll be better off rolling up casters. Learning best from mistakes and all that.

[Gavinfoxx]

Personally, if I found a DM clamping down on my spell and item access? I'd make an Easy Bake Wizard and be done with it...

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1) (1 Fire Elf can be substituted as well. SRD. If LA buyoff is available, strongly consider being a Lesser Fey'ri; at will Alter Self is fantastic!)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Note: if it doesn't turn out right, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Personally, if I found a DM clamping down on my spell and item access? I'd make an Easy Bake Wizard and be done with it...

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1) (1 Fire Elf can be substituted as well. SRD. If LA buyoff is available, strongly consider being a Lesser Fey'ri; at will Alter Self is fantastic!)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Note: if it doesn't turn out right, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells.

This works under the assumption (a rather bold one, IMO) that all of those books are available. The stuff from core and UA are available via SRD but the rest, while common, are far from guaranteed; particularly the core of the build, being from dragon magazine; a source that's quite commonly dissallowed.

Frankly, it'd be a lot less trouble, and free up most of the character's build resources, if he simply built a sorcerer instead. While limited, the spells-know of a sorcerer -can- cover all the generic bases and has the added advantage of being spontaneous.

It may be less overall-versatile but there's something to be said for simplicity and elegance, not to mention the fact it's immensely more likely to get DM approval in a situation where such approval is necessary.

[Phaederkiel]

Do it the RP way: spend one ENTIRE session making plans for equipment and crafting it. As soon as you have xp, craft it away.

If the whole group does so (under his watchful eyes and eventually, tutelage), he will soon see the problems he created.

He just needs to understand that WBL is a part of your CR.



I have played two times in campaigns with difficult WBL-problems:

in the first, the DM allowed a lot of items he never knew before, and then kneejerked shortly after, stealing ALL the Items we had and teleporting us 300 years away. We left that dm.

In the second, we have the money, but noone can sell us anything good. ever played a wizard who only has the spells he gets at lvl-ups? feels like a sorcerer with more skillpoints, I can tell you. Its a fun game, anyway.

[tyckspoon]

This works under the assumption (a rather bold one, IMO) that all of those books are available. The stuff from core and UA are available via SRD but the rest, while common, are far from guaranteed; particularly the core of the build, being from dragon magazine; a source that's quite commonly dissallowed.


I'd say the core idea is Collegiate Wizard + Elven Generalist sub-levels, really; that guarantees you get 5 spells learned/levelup, free and automatic, which addresses the problem of "My DM doesn't believe in scrolls, and even if we ever found some I wouldn't have any time or money to scribe them to my book!" Eidetic Wizard is an answer to the relatively less common problem of "My DM keeps trying to passive-aggressively ban Wizards by having Ethereal Filchers walk away with my spellbook!" (Note that Eidetic Wizard does not solve the no time/money for scribing issue, as you still basically go through the same process to install your spells- they just wind up copied in your head instead of a physical book.)

[TuggyNE]

Off-topic binding:

The target is specifically listed as "One elemental or outsider" with no requirements that it be extraplanar. The planetouched and Monks are both core, so non-extraplanar outsiders still existed.

A plausible, but unfortunate, oversight; presumably they assumed it was clear enough.


Extraplanar isn't a static subtype, anyway - any creature not on its home plane gets it.

I'm aware. It's why dismissal (blessedly) doesn't work on Monks or planetouched.


If you tried to lure a succubus from the Abyss, she wouldn't be extrapanar when you declare her as the target.

OK... maybe that's why they didn't put "extraplanar" in the Target line then! (I'm not sure that's actually how Target timing works, but don't feel like arguing the point.)

None of this really negates the point of "luring a creature from another plane" from a common-sense perspective, and I'm not at all sure it is even enough from strict RAW to be able to (lesser/greater) planar bind a Tiefling on the same plane. (It's never going to be enough to bind a Monk 20, because of the HD limit.)

[Chilingsworth]

Personally, if I found a DM clamping down on my spell and item access? I'd make an Easy Bake Wizard and be done with it...

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1) (1 Fire Elf can be substituted as well. SRD. If LA buyoff is available, strongly consider being a Lesser Fey'ri; at will Alter Self is fantastic!)
Gray elves aren't available for this campaign. Lesser Fey'ri aren't available, ever. I'm playing the closest thing available: His custom half elf, which gets everything a human gets, plus my choice of one +2 and one -2 to abilities.
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
Well, wizard/beguiler going for ultimate magus, sort of check?
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
not available
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
not available
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
not available
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
not available
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
never heard of this particular feat, probably not available, though.
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
available, but for almost all practical purposes, we get it for free anyway.
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
not available
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
not available, though everyone does get three bonus "cultural feats" over the first three levels. I chose second wind (I've found it to come in handy numerous times) able learner, and heroic destiny

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)
(available, and I probably will take one at some point.)

Note: if it doesn't turn out right, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells.
I'm doing the best I can on that front, though I've made some sacrifices to RP at character creation (took wizard as my first level instead of beguiler, took a few 1st level spells that would later be duplicated by the beguiler spell list.)


answers in bold to save space. Also, both wizards and beguilers (along with most of the base classes) get two more skill points per level than normal (8 at first level.) Also, I only got to learn a handful of the wizard cantrips, but I have infinate use of the cantrips I prepare, and cantrips have been entirely removed from the beguiler class (along with every class that had them except archivist, cleric, druid, wizard, and I think bard and sorcerer (maybe.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd say the core idea is Collegiate Wizard + Elven Generalist sub-levels, really; that guarantees you get 5 spells learned/levelup, free and automatic, which addresses the problem of "My DM doesn't believe in scrolls, and even if we ever found some I wouldn't have any time or money to scribe them to my book!" Eidetic Wizard is an answer to the relatively less common problem of "My DM keeps trying to passive-aggressively ban Wizards by having Ethereal Filchers walk away with my spellbook!" (Note that Eidetic Wizard does not solve the no time/money for scribing issue, as you still basically go through the same process to install your spells- they just wind up copied in your head instead of a physical book.)

That still runs into the issue of likely but not guaranteed books and DM approval.

If he's deliberately limiting access to scrolls, how likely do you think it is he's going to allow you to use even such basic optimization techniques to bypass the restriction he's trying to impose? I'd hazard, "not very."

[Chilingsworth]

That still runs into the issue of likely but not guaranteed books and DM approval.

If he's deliberately limiting access to scrolls, how likely do you think it is he's going to allow you to use even such basic optimization techniques to bypass the restriction he's trying to impose? I'd hazard, "not very."

He's not limiting access to scrolls in particular. In fact, he's not limiting access to scrolls at all, at least I haven't run into that problem. He just doesn't like the feats precocious apprentice and colligate wizard because they aren't printed with the rest of the feats in Complete Arcane. The rest of the book is fine. (Though with a few modifications to the PrC's such as increasing the number of caster levels given by the mindbender PrC, but not having its 1st level be one of them.)

[Gavinfoxx]

To me, it sounds like he is saying, 'play a Druid or Cleric or Sorcerer', then?

[Kelb_Panthera]

He's not limiting access to scrolls in particular. In fact, he's not limiting access to scrolls at all, at least I haven't run into that problem. He just doesn't like the feats precocious apprentice and colligate wizard because they aren't printed with the rest of the feats in Complete Arcane. The rest of the book is fine. (Though with a few modifications to the PrC's such as increasing the number of caster levels given by the mindbender PrC, but not having its 1st level be one of them.)

I was speaking in a more general sense in that particular instance.

Your DM's decisions, in particular, are a bit concerning to me but not wholly unacceptable, except for the xp foul-up. He really needs to do something there.

The easiest out is to switch one or the other so that the xp generation and its use in crafting are from the same system. If he insists on keeping that as is, then he'll have to start

A) adjusting current XP values to match current levels

and

B) start throwing in some ad-hoc xp so that if one player does more crafting than another the former isn't left at a permanent disadvantage in leveling.

[Chilingsworth]

It's not, and he is. This thread was created out of concern for his fellow players rather than concern for his own character, and I think that deserves some recognition.

@ chillingsworth:

Kudos good sir.

Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

[Arbane]

In the second, we have the money, but noone can sell us anything good. ever played a wizard who only has the spells he gets at lvl-ups? feels like a sorcerer with more skillpoints, I can tell you. Its a fun game, anyway.

In one game I'm in, the wizard has that problem. The DM _did_ warn him that wizards were rare in that setting....

[Rubik]

Point out to your DM that this is a truly excellent way to force everyone's characters to become utterly disposable.

If you make use of the crafting rules you'll be permanently behind on XP, meaning you'll die really easily after you're several levels behind everyone. Then you can take all the items your previous character created on your new character, which then crafts until he dies from being underleveled.

Of course, those who don't craft will be WAY behind on WBL, and for most classes they NEED standard (and in many cases, way more than standard) WBL to stay relevant. They'll die too.

Congratulate him on forcing everyone to view their characters as utterly disposable and to prevent them from getting emotionally invested in them.

[SowZ]

Point out to your DM that this is a truly excellent way to force everyone's characters to become utterly disposable.

If you make use of the crafting rules you'll be permanently behind on XP, meaning you'll die really easily after you're several levels behind everyone. Then you can take all the items your previous character created on your new character, which then crafts until he dies from being underleveled.

Of course, those who don't craft will be WAY behind on WBL, and for most classes they NEED standard (and in many cases, way more than standard) WBL to stay relevant. They'll die too.

Congratulate him on forcing everyone to view their characters as utterly disposable and to prevent them from getting emotionally invested in them.

I wouldn't be so harsh. There are plenty of ways to play D&D. Low-magic, low-gear is one of them, and it is perfectly valid. You have to consider party/class make-up, sure. But it needn't hamper the storytelling. The DMs take on crafting is a little skewed and irritating, yeah. He probably assumes that the crafters intend on making stuff for the party as a whole.

[Killer Angel]

on the WBL side: selling things yeilds 1/4 their value, to encourage us to "use what we find, or craft our own stuff," and gives out less goodies than is indicated in WBL. Also, there's no "magic mart" as such, so even if we had the money to buy stuff, we often have trouble finding what we want. Crafting is supposed to be easier because he's opened up the crafting feats to nonspellcasters (allowing the spell prereqs to slide and replacing the CL prereqs with HD prereqs.)

This isn't so strange... it's not so common, but not the first time I see a setting like this.
The problem is that this style of play, it shouldn't be imposed on the players; such limitations should be agreed upon by all.

[SowZ]

This isn't so strange... it's not so common, but not the first time I see a setting like this.
The problem is that this style of play, it shouldn't be imposed on the players; such limitations should be agreed upon by all.

Maybe. If the DM has a setting, though, and doesn't like to run settings that are high magic or magic-mart, that is reasonable, too.

[NichG]

This is quite playable. The main problem is actually his tendency to spontaneously and randomly level up everyone. Ask to do the following:

- Instead of 'spontaneous level up', have it be a sudden bonus of 50% of the xp to get to the next level or something like that. Combine this with the option to defer levelup.

Compared to a normal game:
- You get 1/2 the normal amount of money, due to the 1/4 sell price
- You pay 1/3 the normal amount of money for gear.

The reasoning is this: assume everyone will need one Craft() Feat. Assume everyone crafts about the same amount of stuff. You actually end up slightly ahead of a 'normal' game where no one crafts. XP is the only real problem, and if everyone crafts then you'll end up with higher wealth and lower levels overall. This isn't the traditional 'XP is a river'; instead its basically, you wait to be higher level until you have the WBL you're comfortable with.

So really, I think it should be fine if he stops randomly insisting on resetting the XP ledger.

[Killer Angel]

Maybe. If the DM has a setting, though, and doesn't like to run settings that are high magic or magic-mart, that is reasonable, too.

Yep, it goes both ways: players cannot impose a setting that the DM doesnt like.
Usually (in theory?), you find a middle ground (The DM proposes a setting, the players ask for something different, the DM adjusts some elements).

[Kobold Esq]

Your DM has shown an unfortunate lack of understanding regarding these issues.


There is not enough information to make that assumption. It is entirely possible that the DM just wants to have much more control over the game.

The idea that crafting essentially grinds to a halt, as well as forcing players to rely on the items that the DM drops into the setting (as opposed to cherry picking their ideal equipment from various sourcebooks) may be EXACTLY what the DM is intending.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There is not enough information to make that assumption. It is entirely possible that the DM just wants to have much more control over the game.

The idea that crafting essentially grinds to a halt, as well as forcing players to rely on the items that the DM drops into the setting (as opposed to cherry picking their ideal equipment from various sourcebooks) may be EXACTLY what the DM is intending.

The op said the stated intent was for crafting to be encouraged and opened to all classes. The current rulings negate it entirely. Either the DM lied or he screwed up.

If his intent was to prevent crafting he could very simply have said, "... and the crafting feats are unavailable for this campaign...." amongst his other houserules. Much simpler, much more to the point, and (most importantly) not a passive-aggressive d-bag way of handling it.

I stand by my assessment.

[Chilingsworth]

There is not enough information to make that assumption. It is entirely possible that the DM just wants to have much more control over the game.

The idea that crafting essentially grinds to a halt, as well as forcing players to rely on the items that the DM drops into the setting (as opposed to cherry picking their ideal equipment from various sourcebooks) may be EXACTLY what the DM is intending.

Maybe, but what he's said, at least, is that he wants to encourage us to craft. I haven't known him to lie. Though preventing us from freely cherrypicking stuff is definately something he wants as well.

To answer the post above mine,

I'm working on the assumption that he either screwed up, or he's planing to unveil some other modification to the crafting system that will fix the problem. He's mentioned allowing us to gather rare ingredients (from slain creatures and such) that might reduce costs, at any rate. He's just taken awhile to state what those cost reductions might be. Also, he mentioned these adjustments when I tried pointing out the difficulties inherant in the staus quo.

[Chilingsworth]

So, thanks for the advice, guys.

One last thing: Do you suppose it would be useful to show my dm this thread, and if so... how best to do that?

Incidentally, I used the playground to answer another misunderstanding between him and I (he thought there was a feat to prevent others from noticing your spellcasting, I didn't think there was. Acording to the playground, I was right.) He responded favorably to the playground's input then, but I only had to mention it to get the response. I'm thinking it would be useful for him to actually see this thread, but I don't want him to feel like, say, I'm rubbing his nose into a computerscreen like he's some sort of bad puppy.

[SowZ]

So, thanks for the advice, guys.

One last thing: Do you suppose it would be useful to show my dm this thread, and if so... how best to do that?

Incidentally, I used the playground to answer another misunderstanding between him and I (he thought there was a feat to prevent others from noticing your spellcasting, I didn't think there was. Acording to the playground, I was right.) He responded favorably to the playground's input then, but I only had to mention it to get the response. I'm thinking it would be useful for him to actually see this thread, but I don't want him to feel like, say, I'm rubbing his nose into a computerscreen like he's some sort of bad puppy.

Well, we don't know how thick skinned your DM is. But this has the potential to be a little more inflammatory, since this isn't just a mechanics question but a matter of DM style/setting choices.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, I just (well, ok two hours ago) got back from my weekly game. I tried talking with my DM again. Either I explained myself more clearly, or he was more receptive, or both because he seemed much more negotiable than previous attempts. (It might also have had something to do with the fact that we were about to hit levels where serrious crafting could get started.)

Anyway, things as they stand now: The system disparity is still the same as before, BUT

XP can be spent down to below your current level with no ill effects.
And, I am to keep track of the stuff I craft (and its costs.) The effect of this will be evaluated in a couple of months or so, and any negative impact will be rectified after the fact.

Further, it appears that at varrious appropriate times, we'll continue to be leveled up "prematurely." So, we may end up with a system where XP is just another type of "gold" divorced from level (which would be governed by adventure path necessitated fiat instead, with said fiat keeping everyone the same level 90%+ of the time) For me, that's a great improvement from what was the status quo.

I also told him about this thread, he might or might not take a look at it at some point.

In case he does: Hi DM! (I suppose it would be rude to use your actual name on an internet forum without permission, wouldn't it?)