monk bonus feat options

[limejuicepowder]

I cannot seem to find the other feat options monks have for their bonus feats, specifically, the one for power attack (I'm pretty sure it exists). Does anyone have a reference?

[Muktidata]

Google martial monk. You get fighter feats instead.

[limejuicepowder]

crap there isn't a better source than dragonmag?

[Unusual Muse]

There are variant styles in Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD). The one you want is Overwhelming Attack, which gets Power Attack at 1st level.

There are also Monk variant fighting styles in Dragon Magazines 310, 334, 337, 346. There are a couple that get Power Attack, one at 2nd level and one at 6th.

[Flickerdart]

Why are you so eager to get Power Attack on a Monk, anyway? Without the 2:1 returns on two-handed PA and good BAB, it's kind of mediocre.

[nedz]

Why are you so eager to get Power Attack on a Monk, anyway? Without the 2:1 returns on two-handed PA and good BAB, it's kind of mediocre.

For Cleave, so that you can miss again.:smalltongue:

These (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) fighting styles give some feat combos.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's also the list of martial arts feats in OA that a monk can sub-out his normal selection for, though you lose the ability to take them without qualifying.

[The_Snark]

Why are you so eager to get Power Attack on a Monk, anyway? Without the 2:1 returns on two-handed PA and good BAB, it's kind of mediocre.

If you take the Decisive Strike ACF and wield a quarterstaff, it's a solid investment.

[limejuicepowder]

It's part of a "can't touch this" build (found in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread), and I'm trying to get maximum millage out of the 2 monk levels. In this case, picking up power attack and improved bullrush for free is awesome.

[Flickerdart]

If you take the Decisive Strike ACF and wield a quarterstaff, it's a solid investment.
Combining a feat that penalizes to-hit with an ability that penalizes to-hit on a 3/4 BAB chassis is still not a good idea.

[Eldariel]

Combining a feat that penalizes to-hit with an ability that penalizes to-hit on a 3/4 BAB chassis is still not a good idea.

If it's a Monk feat-dip in a martial full BAB build it can be quite convenient to get PA tho.

[vartan]

Unrelatedish, but I just realized today that you can take Monastic Training as a substitute for the first, second, or sixth level bonus feat a monk is granted...

In case you dip and decide to come back for more.

[Phelix-Mu]

Unrelatedish, but I just realized today that you can take Monastic Training as a substitute for the first, second, or sixth level bonus feat a monk is granted...

In case you dip and decide to come back for more.

But then you dip, take a major benefit (feat), and use it to later un-dip...could just stick with the class in the first place? Unless your DM doesn't allow a rebuild and you've flip-flopped, this doesn't seem very practical.

Also, if the setting world you are in allows monk orders (such as in Forgotten Realms), there may be some kind of order that you can join that will get you a benefit identical to Monastic Training.

That said, Tashalatora is one big reason why it's nice that Monastic Training can come from bonus feats.

Some of the Substitution level for monks introduce different bonus feats, I believe. Hin Fist comes to mind, but memory failing at the moment.

[Namfuak]

Power attack is also a prereq for Fist of the Forest, which is a pretty good monk prestige class.

[SowZ]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

Nice and legal.

[Muktidata]

Why are you so eager to get Power Attack on a Monk, anyway? Without the 2:1 returns on two-handed PA and good BAB, it's kind of mediocre.

Use a quarterstaff TH.
Wand of Divine Power.
Wand of Heroics: Leap Attack, etc
It's better than Deflect Arrows and Combat Reflexes.

[Flickerdart]

Use a quarterstaff TH.
Wand of Divine Power.
Wand of Heroics: Leap Attack, etc
It's better than Deflect Arrows and Combat Reflexes.
Ah yes, partially charged wands.

Combat Reflexes is actually quite useful on a Monk - a strategic Factotum dip for Brains over Brawn, plus Decisive Strike, plus Improved Trip and Knock-Down gives you a pretty brutal combo, especially if you can score reach.

[Muktidata]

Ah yes, partially charged wands.

Combat Reflexes is actually quite useful on a Monk - a strategic Factotum dip for Brains over Brawn, plus Decisive Strike, plus Improved Trip and Knock-Down gives you a pretty brutal combo, especially if you can score reach.

I don't call 'em monks if they don't go man-mode: pure monk 20. For your mut tactic:

Reach = CL1 Potions of Enlarge Person, Wand of Enlarge Person (in one of the two wand slots of your quarterstaff)

[Juntao112]

How does the monk use a wand?

[Flickerdart]

I don't call 'em monks if they don't go man-mode: pure monk 20. For your mut tactic:

Reach = CL1 Potions of Enlarge Person, Wand of Enlarge Person (in one of the two wand slots of your quarterstaff)
You don't need Brains over Brawn, it's just a nice fat bonus to your Trip check to compensate for lousy Monk BAB with an actual class feature instead of using cross-class skills to pretend to be a Cleric. If anything isn't pure Monk, it's that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How does the monk use a wand?

Getting a UMD modifier to the 19 necessary to be able to always activate any wand or staff you encounter isn't terribly difficult, even if it's not a class skill.

Purchasing wands that are partially charged is generally frowned upon as being excessively cheesy and using UMD to mimic casting is a faux pas for reasons I've yet to fully grasp.

[SowZ]

Getting a UMD modifier to the 19 necessary to be able to always activate any wand or staff you encounter isn't terribly difficult, even if it's not a class skill.

Purchasing wands that are partially charged is generally frowned upon as being excessively cheesy and using UMD to mimic casting is a faux pas for reasons I've yet to fully grasp.

Because it makes rogue's much more relevant in a high tier game? Remember, a martial class should have to get to high levels and go through ability chains to get an ability that is replicated by a single low level spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Because it makes rogue's much more relevant in a high tier game? Remember, a martial class should have to get to high levels and go through ability chains to get an ability that is replicated by a single low level spell.

I realize this is mostly, if not entirely, sarcasm but that does seem to be the general consensus.

It's perfectly fine for a caster to use his class feature (spells) to mimic the abilities of other classes, but if another class uses his build resources to mimic the ability to cast spells he's crossed some sort of line.

It's a ridiculous double-standard that I simply cannot fathom.

[TuggyNE]

using UMD to mimic casting is a faux pas for reasons I've yet to fully grasp.

It's only considered a faux pas in discussions of relative class usefulness (primarily because very few classes have any unique abilities that relate to it, and many are actually handicapped, like the Monk*). In actual play it's fine.


*The source of this distaste is, historically, a long and dreadful thread, or series of threads, in which a now-banned poster endlessly reiterated his thesis that cross-class UMD and partially-charged wands meant that the Monk class was perfectly fine and quite powerful. So it gets particularly bad reactions with Monks.

[SowZ]

I realize this is mostly, if not entirely, sarcasm but that does seem to be the general consensus.

It's perfectly fine for a caster to use his class feature (spells) to mimic the abilities of other classes, but if another class uses his build resources to mimic the ability to cast spells he's crossed some sort of line.

It's a ridiculous double-standard that I simply cannot fathom.

People tend to think that wizards get poor static defenses/bonus/gear selection and while more powerful in a burst eventually 'run out' of spells, making a fighter more consistent. Of course, past level 4 or so the wizard probably won't run out of spells and past level 9 or so he never should. And the wizards defensive spells can more than make up for poor defenses/HP and the offensive spells more than make up for his low BAB.

This consistency argument probably worked as an argument back in the days of yore when a wizard had powerful spells but really had a small number per day at all but the highest levels.

I think the idea is that mundanes using magic gives you the best of both worlds, unaware that casters ALREADY get the best of both worlds. It comes from a percieved, (but actually irrelevant,) weakness of casters.

[Gwendol]

Overwhelming attack, as has been stated already.

PA on a monk can be very useful if you choose a good race, like goliath. Of course, you get a lot less out of your choices (damagewise) than going barbarian with mountain rage, but still.

[TuggyNE]

People tend to think that wizards get poor static defenses/bonus/gear selection and while more powerful in a burst eventually 'run out' of spells, making a fighter more consistent. Of course, past level 4 or so the wizard probably won't run out of spells and past level 9 or so he never should. And the wizards defensive spells can more than make up for poor defenses/HP and the offensive spells more than make up for his low BAB.

This consistency argument probably worked as an argument back in the days of yore when a wizard had powerful spells but really had a small number per day at all but the highest levels.

I think the idea is that mundanes using magic gives you the best of both worlds, unaware that casters ALREADY get the best of both worlds. It comes from a percieved, (but actually irrelevant,) weakness of casters.

While that is, indeed, a plausible explanation for the common "fighters can't have nice things" mindset, most people who'll ding you for mentioning (cross-class) UMD don't subscribe to that viewpoint anyway.

[SowZ]

While that is, indeed, a plausible explanation for the common "fighters can't have nice things" mindset, most people who'll ding you for mentioning (cross-class) UMD don't subscribe to that viewpoint anyway.

Hmm, yeah, maybe they just think that even having UMD as a class skill is such a big deal that it is a major class feature, (a sensible stance, really, an expert with UMD can certainly outshine a Fighter,) and so taking advantage of UMD without having it as a trained skill is detracting from those classes? Maybe?

Yeah, I think it is an odd stance, the UMD thing. I don't know if I've encountered anyone talk about that specifically but I have heard many people use the above justification for Martial/Magic balance.

[Eldariel]

Purchasing wands that are partially charged is generally frowned upon as being excessively cheesy and using UMD to mimic casting is a faux pas for reasons I've yet to fully grasp.

The issue with partial Wands isn't really "cheesiness" but practicality; they simply do not exist by RAW or in most settings. Indeed, selling a Wand with charges yet should be exceedingly rare as most people who get Wands usually need them enough to use them fully so they only come from people who kill others with Wands and sell them; not a reliable means of getting Wands with the spell and the number of charges you want.

The quote that was originally used to suggest partially charged Wands was the quote in DMG about starting on higher level than level 1; then you can have "partially charged Wands" since it's expected you've bought them before and used some charges. But that simply doesn't apply to purchase prices nor actual played characters, so the whole concept is completely unsupported by rules, imbalanced (compared to e.g. Scrolls which are twice as expensive as Wands with a single charge and harder to activate) and fairly ridiculous fluff-wise (since Wands can only be crafted at 50 charges, it just doesn't function in a fantasy economy).

[Mato]

The issue with partial Wands isn't really "cheesiness" but practicality; they simply do not exist by RAW or in most settings.Actually, DMG states Wands are found as loot, and these Wands have d% divided by two in remaining charges. Since you round down, chances of finding a fully charged Wand are 0.5%.

Add to this, there is no way to break down a Wand. Either you use it or Sunder it. Only Eberron specific cases can talk about the Artificer. Per DMG/PHB PCs sell loot at 1/2 price and the DMG explicitly gives more loot than needed for WBL as part of a forgive and forget and observance of the resell penalty. This creates an influx of partially charged Wands per Adventurer that is expected to be in the open market.

The real point however has little to do with the availability of partially charged wands in RAW (which there are). A mundane can and will buy and UMD a Wand irregardless of the number of charges you think it should have. So there are only two reasons one would argue no partial charges. One is to prevent low level characters from using charge based gear, to which I'd like to remind you of the DMG/MiC's comment of let them buy what they want, and the MiC as a whole had a goal of giving lower cost, charge based, magic items to even lower level characters.

The other is direct abuse. Kind of like a continuous True Strike effect, not all wands are treated as equal. However, this isn't a RAW or even RAI discussion, this enters the realm of a gentleman's agreement and how you shouldn't be a douchebag. However, therein to this point it is a two way street.

[Phelix-Mu]

The issue with partial Wands isn't really "cheesiness" but practicality; they simply do not exist by RAW or in most settings. Indeed, selling a Wand with charges yet should be exceedingly rare as most people who get Wands usually need them enough to use them fully so they only come from people who kill others with Wands and sell them; not a reliable means of getting Wands with the spell and the number of charges you want.

The quote that was originally used to suggest partially charged Wands was the quote in DMG about starting on higher level than level 1; then you can have "partially charged Wands" since it's expected you've bought them before and used some charges. But that simply doesn't apply to purchase prices nor actual played characters, so the whole concept is completely unsupported by rules, imbalanced (compared to e.g. Scrolls which are twice as expensive as Wands with a single charge and harder to activate) and fairly ridiculous fluff-wise (since Wands can only be crafted at 50 charges, it just doesn't function in a fantasy economy).

I would echo Mato's point in the following post about there being lots of partially charged wands available if the DM uses the treasure tables in the MiC. If adventurers find such wands and don't want them, they sell them to a shop/npc. Ergo, the shop seems to have partially charged wands, and shops sell inventory, so shops sell partially charged wands. I'm not sure all shops in all towns should sell these wands, and I think only mainstream spells should be available, but it's hard to argue they aren't around when they are on treasure tables and being sold by the party members.

On the other hand, the DM could rule that a shop won't buy a partially charged wand. Can one determine the number of charges in a wand simply by handling it? Maybe appraisal of value of partially charged wands is a matter of fraud or something, and/or shop owners don't want to be caught with worthless inventory. It's perfectly plausible for nothing under 10 charges to be available, for instance, by this logic.

Also, can we get further away from the topic of the OP?

[Muktidata]

The OP got his answer.

I've personally never bought a partially charged wand. It's cheesy and not RAW. Now a +1 Warning Eager Ethereal Reaver Parrying Morphing Luck Shuriken of Blurring, Agility, and Iniative morphed into a braid blade, yes.

[Phelix-Mu]

I probably wouldn't offer them to a party, either, or shop for them in a campaign where I'm a player. I guess I'd have to go with the RAW argument if a player approached me with a logic argument about buying and selling. They can be abused at low levels, for sure, but only by players that bring UMD and low-level optimization to the table. Happily, most of my players don't really start optimizing until higher level buffs are already available, decreasing the appeal of cheap wands and UMD. Thank my lucky stars.

[Eldariel]

Actually, DMG states Wands are found as loot, and these Wands have d% divided by two in remaining charges. Since you round down, chances of finding a fully charged Wand are 0.5%.

Add to this, there is no way to break down a Wand. Either you use it or Sunder it. Only Eberron specific cases can talk about the Artificer. Per DMG/PHB PCs sell loot at 1/2 price and the DMG explicitly gives more loot than needed for WBL as part of a forgive and forget and observance of the resell penalty. This creates an influx of partially charged Wands per Adventurer that is expected to be in the open market.

Sure, some exist but finding the particular Wand you're looking with the particular number of charges you want (since it can't be crafted as such) is at best a lucky break and at worst completely impossible.

If you do allow partially charged wands in an unrestricted manner, you make casters ridiculously powerful since they can use all Wands from their spell list without any caster level checks, and a single-charge Wand costs half that of a scroll; so level 1 Wizards have fairly easy access to level 4 spells this way. Plus, the fact that scrolls exist kinda suggests that 1-2 charge Wands of each spell aren't commonly available (since the Wand is easier to use for everybody and cheaper).

[Mato]

Sure, some exist but finding the particular Wand you're looking with the particular number of charges you want (since it can't be crafted as such) is at best a lucky break and at worst completely impossible.

If you do allow partially charged wands in an unrestricted manner, you make casters ridiculously powerful let mundanes handle buffing them selves rather than relying on a better class to make them useful ...

Plus, the fact that scrolls exist kinda suggests that 1-2 charge Wands of each spell aren't commonly available (since the Wand is easier to use for everybody and cheaper).fify.

And anyone can UMD a Scroll just as easy as a Wand. Also Wands cannot be copied into a spell book. And also Wands cannot exceed the 4th level. And and also a lot of good choices render dumb ones worthless or stupid. While you were trying to make that point, were you wondering how you'd justify Potions and Dragon Disciple next? Never mind, don't answer that.

@OP, if you're looking at the Monk for more than just Feats, Sandals of Tiger's Leap doubles Unarmed Damage on a Charge. It's one of those unarmed is the best melee weapon in D&D bonuses. Free up taking Battle Jump if you were looking into snagging it.

[Eldariel]

And anyone can UMD a Scroll just as easy as a Wand.

UMD DCs for Scrolls are 20+CL while Wands are flat 20. A Caster Level 20 GMW is +20 DCs higher as a Scroll than as a Wand.


Also Wands cannot be copied into a spell book. And also Wands cannot exceed the 4th level. And and also a lot of good choices render dumb ones worthless or stupid. While you were trying to make that point, were you wondering how you'd justify Potions and Dragon Disciple next? Never mind, don't answer that.

Potions can be used without checks, of course they're more expensive. Dragon Disciples, I don't get the point you're making; they aren't strictly worse than anything. Indeed, they're one of the very few class-based stat boosts available in the game.

Sure, it has very few niches but a DD still has higher mundane combatant numbers you can get in Core, and there are few cases where you can get high enough level slots out of it for it to function reasonably (get 9s on level 1 and start replicating level 9 slots for instance).

Besides, nowhere in DMG does it say those Wands are available in anything but character creation; only 50 charge Wands are listed as available for purchase.

[Mato]

The point on Dragon Disciple was to serve an example empathizing the point before it, because it is a worthless Class.

Just because a worse option exists, doesn't mean you should choose it or that is somehow invalidates ever choosing the better option. But if you really really want to argue this like you have been. I've got this cool investment opportunity deal for you. :)

Otherwise, you continue to be wrong. As I have stated, the DMG offers partially charged wands (in fact any charged based item) as loot. It's on the same page that explains the different properties of Magical Items. Add to this, the rules of creating any PC above level 1 does absolutely as a concrete fact allows purchase partially charged items. You could sit down to play Red Hand of Doom and start with a Wand of Wraithstrike with 10 charges left. So yes, quite frankly the DMG does say PCs can obtain partially charged Wands. You cannot create them partially charged, but saying to cannot obtain them doesn't have a single shred of truth within it. Perhaps you are confusing the words rarity & obtainable with a generous helping of personal opinion on that rarity part?

[Eldariel]

Otherwise, you continue to be wrong. As I have stated, the DMG offers partially charged wands (in fact any charged based item) as loot. It's on the same page that explains the different properties of Magical Items. Add to this, the rules of creating any PC above level 1 does absolutely as a concrete fact allows purchase partially charged items.

Yes, it allows buying them on character creation, with the idea that charges have been used. It doesn't allow them buying willy-nilly. You might find one for sale but by default they're not allowed.

Character creation rules for higher than level 1 assume the character has "lived" since level 1, and thus has invested in items and has used said items. Why do you think it's only mentioned in the rules for creating PC above level 1, instead of just mentioning what's available for purchase in an average town?