Rogue Halfling - Basic but Awesome?

[TonyTron]

I would appreciate assistance crafting the best Rogue Halfling possible from the Core Rulebooks.

Here were my roles:
17, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11

I've only ever played homebrew games with loose rules and lots of variants, so this is surprisingly new territory. I don't know how to make a functionally awesome rogue with core rules...

[koboldish]

Hmm... Take two weapon fighting and continue up that feat chain. Make sure to take weapon finesse and dump strength. If you want some magic, arcane trickster is in core only too.

[TonyTron]

If you want some magic, arcane trickster is in core only too.

Thank you for the heads-up, but we already have two casters in the group so I don't want to be redundant.

[limejuicepowder]

Core-only limits things a lot, especially rogues. Rogues are on the limited end of the spectrum to begin with, and core-only makes it even worse.

With that said, there are still a few things that can be done. I would prioritize dex>int>cha>con>str>wis.

You have two basic combat options; one is to stay at range and act as a sniper/skirmisher. Halflings are pretty good as this for a few reasons; they are small which boosts hide and to-hit, and they have a bonus to thrown weapons. With max dex you'll have a better to-hit than the party fighter at lower levels. Good feats are precise shot, point-blank shot, quick draw, and improved initiative. Skill focus (hide) is worth a thought, but only if you really have nothing else to get.

Boost hide as much a possible and use the snipe option from the hide skill. Cloak of Elvenkind (DMG) is a priority, get one as fast as possible.

The other combat option is two-weapon fighting. You'll want weapon finesse and two-weapon fighting, obviously. This build can do a lot more damage but you are in way more danger - in fact, you will probably get stomped at some point. Does your party have a cleric?

In either build, max out UMD and get your hands on every wand you can - basically anything that doesn't require a save to be good. Invisibility, grease, shield, haste, cure light wounds, and even ray of frost are extremely useful.

Even if the party has casters, an extra "half-caster" will always be useful. And if they have item creation feats they can hook you up with some nice wands.

[searlefm]

there are meany way to be awesome as a rouge the real question is what flavor of awesome do you want.

if you want throwing weapons witch Halfling's get a bonus to i recommend duel fighting, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, lots of daggers, and a high slight of hand so you can draw them as skill checks.

if you want to be sneaky and quiet build is unimportant as long as you have good Bluff, Climb, Disguise, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope.
and have a plan as even a level 2 rouge can hie from a level 20 fighter if you have a little luck and a plan.

and limejuicepowder has some good points and so dose koboldish as weapon finesse
is your friends and you'll want it

[Curmudgeon]

Using Core rules alone, awesome is not possible. Trust me, I know lots about the Rogue class. I typically use a couple dozen sources for a Rogue character just to overcome the problems with the base class.

For an inherently stealthy class, it's maddening that there's no standard way for the Rogue to get Hide in Plain Sight. You can get that late (level 13) with the Wilderness Rogue variant in Unearthed Arcana, or early — but only in Forgotten Realms — with the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. HiPS lets the Rogue enable sneak attack by actually being sneaky.

Even when the Rogue is good at hiding, they're totally vulnerable to creatures with other senses like Scent, Blindsight, and Tremorsense. The Darkstalker feat in Lords of Madness fixes that.

The Rogue doesn't deal enough damage to matter in combat. In particular, they don't have any option which scales damage with increasing levels the way Power Attack scales with full BAB class levels. The answer is the Craven feat in Champions of Ruin, which boosts sneak attack damage by +1 per character level. Craven increases the Rogue's vulnerability to fear, but the Uncanny Bravery alternative class feature (ACF) in Dragon Magic fixes that.

With 3/4 BAB, the Rogue doesn't hit often enough. And, of course, if you don't hit you don't do any (sneak attack or other) damage. The combination of Education (Eberron Campaign Setting) and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) feats lets the Rogue leverage their skillful natures by getting bonuses to attack (and also damage) based on Knowledge skill checks to identify creature vulnerabilities.

Too many enemies are immune to sneak attack. Lightbringer Penetrating Strike is an ACF in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft which lets the Rogue still deal out sneak attack damage, but with 1/2 the normal dice, while flanking normally sneak-immune targets. The Rogue can also get weapon augment crystals in Magic Item Compendium: Greater Truedeath allows full sneak attack vs. Undead, and Greater Demolition allows full sneak attack vs. Constructs. Or the Rogue can make use of wands of Grave Strike, Golem Strike, and Vine Strike spells from Spell Compendium, along with the altered wand activation times from Rules Compendium.


Build a Rogue using all these sources? Awesome. Core only? Aw. Ho-hum.

[TonyTron]

Build a Rogue using all these sources? Awesome. Core only? Aw. Ho-hum.

Haha! I have no doubt :smallsmile: I will definitely keep these notes in mind for more expansive games.

[russdm]

I would just point out that halflings have no special vision, meaning they don't work as scouts since they need to have a light source with them to see anything. Since most monsters that have darkvision besides dwarves don't usually invest in light sources....the halfling rogue is a goner.

[limejuicepowder]

I would just point out that halflings have no special vision, meaning they don't work as scouts since they need to have a light source with them to see anything. Since most monsters that have darkvision besides dwarves don't usually invest in light sources....the halfling rogue is a goner.

UMD to the rescue! Get a wand of light and you can make your own light sources for cheap.

[Phelix-Mu]

UMD to the rescue! Get a wand of light and you can make your own light sources for cheap.

But now everyone can see your halfling holding the only flashlight as he watches the evil biddies in his scouting. If the rogue can't scout in the dark (or even very well in the half-dark), then that is pretty sad. A wand of darkvision might be a better investment. [/tooserious]

[avr]

Being able to create light isn't the problem. Sneaking when you are carrying a light source is the problem.

Once you can get and use a wand of darkvision or similar you're set, and you can generally sneak around outside at night OK, but at lower levels you really need natural darkvision to be able to sneak around underground.

[limejuicepowder]

Ah good point.

UMD to the rescue again! Cast darkness on another stone and carry that around with you. The darkness radius is smaller than the light radius, so there will be a donut of light, but the area your in will be dark. This has the bonus of blocking darkvision as well, evening the playing field a bit.

[TonyTron]

If the rogue can't scout in the dark (or even very well in the half-dark), then that is pretty sad. A wand of darkvision might be a better investment.

Wand of Darkvision & the earlier mentioned Cloak of Elvinkind are for sure on my wishlist as this game goes forward!

[TonyTron]

UMD to the rescue again! Cast darkness on another stone and carry that around with you. The darkness radius is smaller than the light radius, so there will be a donut of light, but the area your in will be dark. This has the bonus of blocking darkvision as well, evening the playing field a bit.


Wait... whoa! This is brilliant :smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

UMD to the rescue again! Cast darkness on another stone and carry that around with you. The darkness radius is smaller than the light radius, so there will be a donut of light, but the area your in will be dark. This has the bonus of blocking darkvision as well, evening the playing field a bit.

Given that "Light taken into an area of magical darkness does not function" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/light.htm), I'm not sure this would actually work. But if so, it's a rather clever solution.

[Curmudgeon]

Cast darkness on another stone and carry that around with you. The darkness radius is smaller than the light radius, so there will be a donut of light, but the area your in will be dark.
It might be a good time to re-read some spell descriptions.

Light

Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0

This spell causes an object to glow like a torch, shedding bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light for an additional 20 feet) from the point you touch.
Darkness

Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius.

Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level. There will be no light radiated if the Darkness spell (2nd level) overlaps the object with Light cast on it (0th level): the spell will be countered. You're not countering an effect only in an area; instead, you're countering the spell.

No donut.

[limejuicepowder]

It might be a good time to re-read some spell descriptions.
There will be no light radiated if the Darkness spell (2nd level) overlaps the object with Light cast on it (0th level): the spell will be countered. You're not countering an effect only in an area; instead, you're countering the spell.

No donut.

I was completely joking from the get-go, since even the donut of light would give away the presence of the character, making the entirely exercise rather pointless.

But you are right, it doesn't work xD

[Phelix-Mu]

Low-level problem solving really is the best.

Contrast this with an epic campaign where the party has all been given constant effect true seeing as part of a special gift pack from our illustrious employer. Now, not only does my elf not need darkvision, but apparently no one does (unless someone manages to get darkvision beyond 120'...probably not worth the investment). Problem solved? Or maybe now everything is just boring.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wear a tiny mundane bauble on a string around your neck. Get someone to cast Deeper Darkness on it, preferably Extended, hiring an NPC spellcaster works. Hold the bauble in your mouth to block line of effect for the darkness effect. If you need to suddenly hide, 'drop' it as a free action by spitting it out, it returns to hanging around your neck and plunges the area into darkness.

A Continual Flame that's Heightened to a 9th level spell will overpower any magical darkness of 8th level or lower, and cancel out a 9th level darkness effect. Getting it from an NPC spellcaster would be 1,580 gp at standard rates. Yep, a Heightened Everburning Torch beats everything and it's core.

[TuggyNE]

I was completely joking from the get-go, since even the donut of light would give away the presence of the character, making the entirely exercise rather pointless.

I figured that, while indeed they'd notice you, at least they wouldn't be sure where you were. :smallwink:

[Curmudgeon]

Low-level problem solving really is the best.

Contrast this with an epic campaign where the party has all been given constant effect true seeing as part of a special gift pack from our illustrious employer. ... Problem solved? Or maybe now everything is just boring. Not so boring when dozens of boulders drop on you in the surprise round from siege engines firing safely outside your 120' True Seeing radius. You're safe if you stay in your Fortress of Solitude. But if you need to get about in the world, ordinary mooks with a bit of determination can still kill you from ambush.

In a more sophisticated ambush, a bunch of Rogues using mundane Hide calmly walk/fly up, flank you, and hit repeatedly with poisoned weapons plus sneak attack damage (thanks to Lightbringer Penetrating Strike, 61% of the full sneak attack still gets through despite you having 100% fortification and being immune to critical hits). Mundane Hide just keeps ticking, and magic like True Seeing is powerless to stop it. Once the good Hide in Plain Sight enables the Rogues to Hide while attacking, and they're doing ability damage on every hit, it's all sorts of fun. Immune to both poisons and sneak attack? Crippling Strike still gets you for 2 points of STR damage every hit (one of the many benefits of Savvy Rogue feat), and (as noted) 61% of the ordinary sneak attack damage does, too. And because they're using Staggering Strike on you multiple times every round, expect to stay staggered until you exit or die. You'll have at least a couple of Rogues flanking you, obviously. What's not so obvious is that when one of them hits you, all the rest of the Rogues get to make AoOs against you (Opportunist + Savvy Rogue again). When the other flanking Rogue hits you, again every Rogue gets to hit you with an AoO. If you somehow survive the sneak attack damage and STR damage in the surprise round, you'd better have a Silent Teleport ready, because you know one of those guys will be ready to mess up any spellcasting involving verbal components. (They'll have already stolen your component pouch, foci, holy symbols, potions, wands, and anything else at hand using free action Sleight of Hand checks.) Every bit of this can be accomplished with no magic whatsoever.

In my opinion, high-level problem solving really is the best. :smallwink:

[Norin]

{interesting long post}

Howdy, you should make a Rogue thread where you dump all kinds of awesome stuff like this. "Curmudgeon's guide to winning as Rogue". :smallwink:

[Gwendol]

There's a penetrating strike ACF in dungeonscape too.