Eldritch Knight - Questions

[greygandalf]

Hello guys. I will be playing an Eldritch knight and i wanna know how good he is at high levels. My DM's system uses 5 lvls of fighter and 5 lvls of wizard to be able to gain 1 lvl of Eldritch knight. For example at lvl 13 i will be 5 lvls wizard 5 lvls fighter and 3 lvls Eldritch knight.
Anyone know how good he will be??? I dont have big experience with many classes so i cant estimate his performance at high lvls, i have only played wizard.

[herrhauptmann]

5th level fighter sucks. It's pretty much a dead level.
Why do you need fighter 5+wizard 5 to get in? All you need is wizard 5 (or sorcerer 6) and a level of fighter.

Basic rule is: Do not lose caster levels.
You're going to be 13th level. Cast like a 7th level wizard. And fight about as well as a 9th level fighter. You're going to be continually outclassed in straight melee, and as a straight spellcaster.
With the right spells, you'll do fine.
Avoid spells that require enemies to make saves. Spells that rely on a caster level greater than your target hitdie to do well (like holy word).

Ftr1/Wizard5/EK7.
You'll have a caster level of 11, and a base attack bonus of 9. Already that's superior to your build.

Try to get the following with as many casting levels as possible.
1 level of spellsword from complete warrior.
5 levels in abjurant champion from complete mage.
THEN look at starting eldritch knight (or knight phantom from eberron)
I believe you could also take some sacred exorcist (complete divine), which has medium bab and a d6 or d8 hitdie, and advances any casting.

[Spuddles]

fighter5/wizard5/eldritch knight 3 will perform better than fighter 13, but you'll wish you had more wizard, less fighter.

[greygandalf]

Actually to get the PC Eldritch Knight in my friend's world u will have to get 5 lvls of wizard and 5 of fighter. But other than that how should i play this class??? i mean what types of spells to choose, buffs or damaging spells? How about feats? My concern about this class is that will i be able to be helful as a lvl 20 character when we are all lvl 20? Or i will be weaker versions of fighters or wizards?

[Arcanist]

Actually to get the PC Eldritch Knight in my friend's world u will have to get 5 lvls of wizard and 5 of fighter. But other than that how should i play this class??? i mean what types of spells to choose, buffs or damaging spells? How about feats? My concern about this class is that will i be able to be helful as a lvl 20 character when we are all lvl 20? Or i will be weaker versions of fighters or wizards?

Just take Wizard 20. You will be WAY better off in the long run and by Long run, I mean Shapechange... And Time Stop... And Gate...

[greygandalf]

yeah problem is that we got already a wizard in the party and i want to make someone that uses magic. My other options are cleric and bard and i pretty much dont like them...

[Kane0]

Do you want to be a warrior type or a support caster type?

Cause i'd actually recommend something like a modified hexblade or warlock respectively. But that's just me.

[Gwendol]

Have you looked at the duskblade? It's a lot more straightforward than what you are trying to do, and you get a handful of unique abilities that actually work together nicely.

[greygandalf]

Actually i like wizard but i would have a problem playing any class that has magic in it. In our party we got a ranger a paladin a wizard and a rogue. So i dont know what to choose, because i think EK wont be as good as others in high lvls!

[Kobold Esq]

yeah problem is that we got already a wizard in the party and i want to make someone that uses magic. My other options are cleric and bard and i pretty much dont like them...

A cleric 13 will be a better fighter/mage than a Fighter 5 / Wizard 5 / EK 3.

You'll have the same BAB until 16th level. You'll have wildly better spellcasting. Your Fighter/mage was presumably going to be mostly buffs and utility magic anyways, and you can still do that as a cleric. Also, you can more easily wear armor for the cheap AC it gives you, something your EK could not do.

Just pick an appropriate god (war, strength, magic, etc type deity) and RP appropriately.

Not every cleric is a walking first aid kit. You are the embodiment of your chosen god's righteous fury. Some gods would rather have their followers buffed to the gills and laying the smack down on their temporal foes.

[Gwendol]

Go duskblade. You won't regret it.

[greygandalf]

A cleric 13 will be a better fighter/mage than a Fighter 5 / Wizard 5 / EK 3.

You'll have the same BAB until 16th level. You'll have wildly better spellcasting. Your Fighter/mage was presumably going to be mostly buffs and utility magic anyways, and you can still do that as a cleric. Also, you can more easily wear armor for the cheap AC it gives you, something your EK could not do.

Just pick an appropriate god (war, strength, magic, etc type deity) and RP appropriately.

Not every cleric is a walking first aid kit. You are the embodiment of your chosen god's righteous fury. Some gods would rather have their followers buffed to the gills and laying the smack down on their temporal foes.

Actually that sounds interesting. I dont want to be a "healbot" maybe a diferent type of cleric than most could be nice with a proper Pc..

[HunterOfJello]

You can always play a Sorcerer. Sorcerers and wizards are nothing alike. Play the blaster and enchantment sorcerer while letting the wizard take care of utility and crowd control.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Actually that sounds interesting. I dont want to be a "healbot" maybe a diferent type of cleric than most could be nice with a proper Pc..

Actually, in most games around these parts, the Cleric is not the healbot.

Unless by "healbot", you mean "guy who has Lesser Vigor and/or Cure Light Wounds on his spell list, and therefore can use that wand of Lesser Vigor/Cure Light Wounds without making a pesky UMD check, until the party can spring for a command word item of Lesser Vigor and stack infinitely". :smalltongue:

[Kobold Esq]

Actually that sounds interesting. I dont want to be a "healbot" maybe a diferent type of cleric than most could be nice with a proper Pc..

That's the spirit!

Are you playing in a published setting, or does your campaign have a rich pantheon to choose from? Nearly every major published setting that I know of will have an appropriate god (or many, and often racial gods as well) that would fit many different styles of warrior priests.

A character is not defined by their class remember. The young squire, the grizzled jaded veteran, and the gladiatorial slave may all be fighters. The foppish courtesan and the barbarian viking beating on the war drums may both be bards.

The dour scholar in the temple archives and the gentle souled healer tending to the sick may both be clerics. But so too is the one-eyed orc who leads the horde under the holy banner of Gruumsh.

See the DnD miniature game for proof:

http://www.bastaic.com/wfb/fey/pics/dnd3.jpg

[Gwendol]

If you want to go martial cleric... suitable domains are: war, luck, travel, strength, knowledge (yes, for knowledge devotion and associated bonuses), planning, celerity.

I would advocate getting into ordained champion asap (cleric 5/OC 5/cleric 10 is simple, yet solid), but as always you want to think about trying to get as many domains as possible (cloistered cleric, contemplative, divine oracle, church inquisitor, etc).

In any case, feats to consider are: power attack, cleave (because you can, and likely better than the barbarian eventually), extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic, spontaneous domain, extra turning (to fuel DMM).

[Lonely Tylenol]

That's the spirit!

Are you playing in a published setting, or does your campaign have a rich pantheon to choose from? Nearly every major published setting that I know of will have an appropriate god (or many, and often racial gods as well) that would fit many different styles of warrior priests.

A character is not defined by their class remember. The young squire, the grizzled jaded veteran, and the gladiatorial slave may all be fighters. The foppish courtesan and the barbarian viking beating on the war drums may both be bards.

The dour scholar in the temple archives and the gentle souled healer tending to the sick may both be clerics. But so too is the one-eyed orc who leads the horde under the holy banner of Gruumsh.

See the DnD miniature game for proof:

http://www.bastaic.com/wfb/fey/pics/dnd3.jpg

GUYS. This is too big to sig for truth. WHAT DO I DO.

[greygandalf]

That's the spirit!

Are you playing in a published setting, or does your campaign have a rich pantheon to choose from? Nearly every major published setting that I know of will have an appropriate god (or many, and often racial gods as well) that would fit many different styles of warrior priests.

A character is not defined by their class remember. The young squire, the grizzled jaded veteran, and the gladiatorial slave may all be fighters. The foppish courtesan and the barbarian viking beating on the war drums may both be bards.

The dour scholar in the temple archives and the gentle souled healer tending to the sick may both be clerics. But so too is the one-eyed orc who leads the horde under the holy banner of Gruumsh.

See the DnD miniature game for proof:

http://www.bastaic.com/wfb/fey/pics/dnd3.jpg

its not a published setting but it has loads of gods and deities i can choose! I have never played cleric thats why i am hesitating a little.. I mean my allies would expect me to heal them when i want to play a diferent type of cleric, focusing on turning undead or being as much offensive as a cleric can be. But we 'll see how it will happen..

[Gwendol]

You'll still have opportunity to heal, just that it will not be all you do.

[mattie_p]

Just take Wizard 20. You will be WAY better off in the long run and by Long run, I mean Shapechange... And Time Stop... And Gate...


A cleric 13 will be a better fighter/mage than a Fighter 5 / Wizard 5 / EK 3.


You can always play a Sorcerer. Sorcerers and wizards are nothing alike. Play the blaster and enchantment sorcerer while letting the wizard take care of utility and crowd control.

Playground, we already have a thread dedicated to this type of advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267020):


Hey Playgrounders.

After taking up D&D 3.5 again after a few years break and checking out what's what in the optimizing\builds game nowdays it seems to me that the be-all-end all for any char idea or concept is:

"Wizard does that better"
"Why not just go [Tier 1 caster] instead and do all that with less hassle?"

So on and so forth.

Say i want to sneak or scout, why not use a wizard and cast invis, etherealness, etc and do it better than a skill monkey?

Say i want to fight in melee, why not use a polymorphed, shapechanged, or even altered self wiz with tenser's transformation, etc and do it better than the melee chars? Not even mentioning the amazing fighting capabilities of the cleric or druid.

Say i want to trapfind... why not use summoned critters to spring the traps for you.

Say i want to... Yeah, you all know how this goes.

So, really, why would anyone want to play something else than wizard (or Tier 1, at least) with some possible variations in ACF, PrC'ing, etc?

Most if not all classes are redundant, right? What class can you not say "[Insert tier 1 caster class] does that better!!!"?

I have to admit, the houserule is ... unusual ... and makes a multiclass gish much more difficult to pull off effectively. Is it just EK with that issue, or are other PrCs heavily modified as well?

[Vizzerdrix]

I've been in that kind of group before, bud. It ruined clerics for me for a time. Let them know up front that you aren't going to babysit their hit points and at what times you'll patch them up. Generally I go with below 0, after combat, and when at 1/3 total HP. If they want more healing they can use items.

Remember that buying wands of healing/buffing isn't your job either. They are better paid for as a group item unless it is something that a specific player wants.

You could also just be a neutral cleric and spontaneously cast the harm line of spells. If they know the limit of healing available then they won't be so quick to get all banged up by being reckless.

[greygandalf]

I have to admit, the houserule is ... unusual ... and makes a multiclass gish much more difficult to pull off effectively. Is it just EK with that issue, or are other PrCs heavily modified as well?

Actually there are some more PCs that where made Classes modified a little, WarPriest (Cleric and Fighter, 5 lvls of each to get 1 lvl or WarPriest) and one Rogue Mage (Wizard and Rogue).

[greygandalf]

I've been in that kind of group before, bud. It ruined clerics for me for a time. Let them know up front that you aren't going to babysit their hit points and at what times you'll patch them up. Generally I go with below 0, after combat, and when at 1/3 total HP. If they want more healing they can use items.

Remember that buying wands of healing/buffing isn't your job either. They are better paid for as a group item unless it is something that a specific player wants.

You could also just be a neutral cleric and spontaneously cast the harm line of spells. If they know the limit of healing available then they won't be so quick to get all banged up by being reckless.

Neutral Cleric seems better for what i am going for.. offensive magic user i mean. Any opinion about bards?

[mattie_p]

Actually there are some more PCs that where made Classes modified a little, WarPriest (Cleric and Fighter, 5 lvls of each to get 1 lvl or WarPriest) and one Rogue Mage (Wizard and Rogue).

Are those the only PrCs that have been modified, or are classes such as Archmage still unchanged? I don't want to disrespect your DM, but making dramatic changes to the prerequisites of some PrCs without affecting others is ... unbalancing, to say the least.

[nedz]

Actually there are some more PCs that where made Classes modified a little, WarPriest (Cleric and Fighter, 5 lvls of each to get 1 lvl or WarPriest) and one Rogue Mage (Wizard and Rogue).

With house-rules like this there is a strong incentive to avoid playing multi-classed characters. This wrecks many character concepts for no good reason, unless you are trying to enforce single threat characters (which doesn't work anyway, because there are plenty of multi-threat classes).

Out of interest have you considered Druid ?
There's a nice triple threat class right out of the box.

Or a Cleric with the Magic domain ?
Again triple threat.

[greygandalf]

With house-rules like this there is a strong incentive to avoid playing multi-classed characters. This wrecks many character concepts for no good reason, unless you are trying to enforce single threat characters (which doesn't work anyway, because there are plenty of multi-threat classes).

Out of interest have you considered Druid ?
There's a nice triple threat class right out of the box.

Or a Cleric with the Magic domain ?
Again triple threat.

Actually because i am new to the game and the Druid is complicated my DM doesnt let me play druid.. As for Cleric with Magic Domain how does he work? is he good?

[nedz]

As for Cleric with Magic Domain how does he work? is he good?

Well you're a Cleric so you can cast spells.
Buffed up, with those spells, you are good in a fight.
The Magic domains granted power allows you to use Wizard spell trigger or completion items: Scrolls/Wands/Staffs/etc.

There are probably better domains — I was just giving an example of how you can make a multi-threat character without the nerfed PrCs.

[Kobold Esq]

Playground, we already have a thread dedicated to this type of advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267020):

I have to admit, the houserule is ... unusual ... and makes a multiclass gish much more difficult to pull off effectively. Is it just EK with that issue, or are other PrCs heavily modified as well?


Except in this case he actually wants to play a spellcasting warrior. I recommended something that:

1) can wear any armor

2) can cast spells (lots of them) to buff himself to fight

3) can fairly easily gain proficiency in a martial weapon of choice (war domain)

4) will have similar BAB/saves, and better HP than the underwhelming gish option.


It isn't like he said "I want to play a bard!" and someone told him to play a changeling double specialized illusion/enchantment wizard with ranks in perform.

[JaronK]

Playground, we already have a thread dedicated to this type of advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267020):

This is different. He wants to play a fighting Wizard, and asks if his method would work. It won't, so he's told that a pure Wizard can be a fighting Wizard better than his method. That's very reasonable advice.

As to my advice for this, it sounds like this DM is very anti-PrC, so don't use one. Duskblade and Cleric can be caster/warriors without multiclassing at all, and frankly the DM's house rule makes the Eldritch Knight completely pathetic. Hexblade could also be workable.

JaronK

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Neutral Cleric seems better for what i am going for.. offensive magic user i mean. Any opinion about bards?


Actually because i am new to the game and the Druid is complicated my DM doesnt let me play druid.. As for Cleric with Magic Domain how does he work? is he good?

This leads me to ask, because in the end really every class can be fun and 'good' to play: What do you want to do?

In social situations, do you want to be the quiet type with one or two acute remarks, or will you be the centre of attention?

Do you want to be a very knowledgeable person (which implies an 'active, inquisitive' playstyle) or do you want to be a simpleton that prefers to let his muscles and/or tactical wit speak for him?

Are you the guy that is vigilant and sneaky, preferring prevention over cure, or are you aloof, uncaring and simply absorbing the heat when it happens and find a cure afterwards?

In combat, do you want to swing a big weapon and charge like a madman, dishing out death and other pains, do you want to take distance and wield a bow, do you want to provide assistance to you friends and enable them, or do you want to wield offensive spells that disable your enemies? Or a combination of 2 aspects?

Provide us with a clear concept of the type of hero you want to be and the playground will offer you a list of possibilities that provide what you seek and are manageable for a new player.

[herrhauptmann]

We'd also need your list of allowed sources, and your houserules.

[greygandalf]

This leads me to ask, because in the end really every class can be fun and 'good' to play: What do you want to do?

In social situations, do you want to be the quiet type with one or two acute remarks, or will you be the centre of attention?

Do you want to be a very knowledgeable person (which implies an 'active, inquisitive' playstyle) or do you want to be a simpleton that prefers to let his muscles and/or tactical wit speak for him?

Are you the guy that is vigilant and sneaky, preferring prevention over cure, or are you aloof, uncaring and simply absorbing the heat when it happens and find a cure afterwards?

In combat, do you want to swing a big weapon and charge like a madman, dishing out death and other pains, do you want to take distance and wield a bow, do you want to provide assistance to you friends and enable them, or do you want to wield offensive spells that disable your enemies? Or a combination of 2 aspects?

Provide us with a clear concept of the type of hero you want to be and the playground will offer you a list of possibilities that provide what you seek and are manageable for a new player.

Actually i dont want to be the quiet type that is unleashed in the field with a sword and devastates enemies. I like to play smart characters i dont have the problem them being melee but i like magic because it enables u to do so many things , both in fights and when i roleplay. a fighter is useful in a battle but outside of it he is pretty much nothing, besides his atheltic skills or perception or trap finding skills if u are a rogue. A magic user can use his spells to have an impact both in fights and RP, combined with a player who is smart he can do alot. Thats why i want my character to have magic or be a half melee half magic user, i love spells. My concern about clerics is that i dont want to heal, i want to be able to attack. As for the prevention over cure, i like them both, i love having answers to many things.

[Kobold Esq]

My concern about clerics is that i dont want to heal, i want to be able to attack. As for the prevention over cure, i like them both, i love having answers to many things.

The good news healing is often the worst choice of what to do in a battle, any given round (not counting doing nothing or actively hurting yourself). In the vast majority of cases, it makes far more sense to kill/incapacitate your foes first, then only heal after the fight is over.

The healing thing is mostly RP. If someone does something dumb on their own, and gets themselves hurt, I see no reason why my half-orc cleric of strength should heal them. They were weak and dumb. My god doesn't want me encouraging them to keep being weak and dumb. (Of course if I need them to win a challenging fight, then of course I'll heal and buff them first, too. My god doesn't expect me to be dumb!)

Divine magic is a gift from the gods. You are not some serving boy for them to order around every time they stub their toe.

[greygandalf]

Thas good. So about clerics i can understand how they work on evil or good gods (channel positive or negative energy, turn or rebuke undead etc) but how about neutral?

[Gwendol]

You just make a choice then: heal or harm.

Why don't you want to play a duskblade?

[greygandalf]

You just make a choice then: heal or harm.

Why don't you want to play a duskblade?

my dm doesnt have duskblade in his world.
How does harm work is it good?

[Gwendol]

I meant the "inflict" line of spells. They can be useful, especially since it's a touch attack.

[LTwerewolf]

Harm is a melee touch attack that does up to 150 (10 per caster level max 150) negative energy damage (this means it heals undead).

I usually recommend going neutral cleric, taking travel and transformation domains and channeling negative energy. This makes it so you rebuke/command undead (not important) and spontaneously cast inflict spells. This makes it clear to the group that you're not a heal bot. Neutral gets to choose on creation if you channel negative or positive energy. This lets you group with a good party without problems.

Keep in mind that unless you're in faerune, you don't need to have a god. Clerics can worship ideals instead of deities.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Actually i dont want to be the quiet type that is unleashed in the field with a sword and devastates enemies. I like to play smart characters i dont have the problem them being melee but i like magic because it enables u to do so many things , both in fights and when i roleplay. a fighter is useful in a battle but outside of it he is pretty much nothing, besides his atheltic skills or perception or trap finding skills if u are a rogue. A magic user can use his spells to have an impact both in fights and RP, combined with a player who is smart he can do alot. Thats why i want my character to have magic or be a half melee half magic user, i love spells. My concern about clerics is that i dont want to heal, i want to be able to attack. As for the prevention over cure, i like them both, i love having answers to many things.

Well, then you might want to have a look at the bard. Duskblade does melee and magic, but its spell list is rather small and highly combat focused. Some wizard/fighter/PrC combo also works very well but that requires some tinkering and tweaking, bookkeeping and some knowledge of the D&D magic system (which is rather large and can be a bit complex). Since you are new to the game, I think it is better to play a class that offers what you want right out of the box.

A bard has a decent attack bonus, a wide and varied spell list to choose from (arcane spells, but also some healing if you want), class features and feats that can significantly increase your combat prowess (as well as that of your team mates) and loads of skill points for out of combat utility. I believe bard is a fun, versatile character to play, a useful character in a team and it touches all the aspects of D&D, making it a good class to get introduced to the rules and mechanics. Google for a nice bard handbook and have a look, they tend to give a good overview of the options of the class.

[Leon]

Actually that sounds interesting. I dont want to be a "healbot" maybe a diferent type of cleric than most could be nice with a proper Pc..

A Cleric played smart is the best thing a party can have to back them up.
They offer the best in party support spells and have the option of On Demand heals and can very ably fight if needed.