damage at low to mid levels

[limejuicepowder]

I've recently been working on a melee-oriented build for low to mid levels. At level 9, I've calculated that his various attack options average in the 30-40 range, per round.

This is a tank-type so I wasn't expecting the damage to be phenomenal, but I would like to know how "good" that damage is; i.e., am I wasting my time with such a build.

[tyckspoon]

It'd take you 3 rounds to cut through a Hill Giant and 3 or 4 for a Frost Giant. So.. the question I'd ask is 'are you tanking correctly?' If you can survive going toe-to-toe with those giants for the necessary 3/4 rounds, then you'll probably be ok- you do your tank thing, contribute alright but not outstanding damage, and let the rest of the party cut them down. If trading shots with those giants for 3 rounds means you are most likely dead, then you have a problem- either you are an ineffective tank and need to improve your defenses/control of your enemy, or you need to be doing more damage.

[Amphetryon]

I've recently been working on a melee-oriented build for low to mid levels. At level 9, I've calculated that his various attack options average in the 30-40 range, per round.

This is a tank-type so I wasn't expecting the damage to be phenomenal, but I would like to know how "good" that damage is; i.e., am I wasting my time with such a build.

Looks pretty low to me. At level 9, I'd assume a +2 STR item granting at least 18 STR (let us know if that number is off), 2 attacks/round minimum, and a +1 Weapon at minimum - hopefully with another enchantment on it. If he's attacking with a Glaive, 1d10 + 7 for 2 attacks isn't far off the 30 - 40 RNG, and that's before Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, or any damage multipliers from presumed crits.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It really depends on the optimization level of the group. In some groups that's overpowered, and in others it's a waste of time. Also, how reliable is that 30-40 damage?

[Sacrieur]

What class/es are you working with?

It also depends on your group, I know more than a handful of people here who can dish out 40 damage by level three.

[huttj509]

I've recently been working on a melee-oriented build for low to mid levels. At level 9, I've calculated that his various attack options average in the 30-40 range, per round.

This is a tank-type so I wasn't expecting the damage to be phenomenal, but I would like to know how "good" that damage is; i.e., am I wasting my time with such a build.

Hmm, depends a lot on the expectations of the group/DM/campaign. I've known groups where that damage at level 9 is considered "OP cheese" (It's not, BTW), and I've encountered groups where that damage at level 5 is considered "low."

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, let's see what a level 6 Human Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian with Power Attack does on a charge...

Human, Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 6

Feats:
1. Power Attack
Hu: Battle Jump
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper

Items of note: A +1 Baatorian Greensteel Gloryborn Valorous Greatsword (a +2-equivalent weapon).
A +2 Enhancement item of strength.

Assumptions: He starts with an 18 strength and he puts his level 4 bonus to strength, and he maxxes Jump.

Here is his attack routine on a Whirling Frenzy-enabled Heedless Charge, jumping at the enemy to enable Battle Jump, with full power attack, at level 6:

Attack 1:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+6 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 charge

Damage: 2d6
+1 enhancement
+10 strength (7 +3)
+1 Gloryborn
+12 Power Attack
+1 from Greensteel

Multiplier x3 = Battle Jump (x2) + Valorous (x2)

(So a 2d6 changes into 6d6 after the x3 multiplier)

Damage on first attack is 6d6+75

So +14/6d6+72
or an average of 96 damage.

Attack 2:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+6 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 charge

This is the same as the first attack, so +14/6d6+75
again, an average of 96 damage.

Attack 3:
25 str (+7)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+1 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 Charge

+9 to hit

Damage:
2d6
+1 enhancement
+10 strength (7+3)
+1 Gloryborn
+12 power attack
+1 from Greensteel

So this is +9/6d6+75
again, an average of 96 damage.

So 288 damage at level 6. That's considered 'quite good' damage...

[limejuicepowder]

The core build is not mine, it's just something I saw on a thread and thought it would be fun -

dwarf ranger 3 monk 2 fist of the forest 1 deepwarden 2 warblade 1

str 18, con 18 (before racial and level modifiers)

Overwhelming attack style variant on the monk, giving power attack and improved bullrush. Other feats are great fortitude, leap attack, knowledge devotion, and shock trooper.

Wields a dwarven waraxe 2-handed, though he can switch to a 1-handed grip for some TWF action (base d8 for unarmed strikes).

Assumed +2 knowledge devotion bonus and a +2 dwarven waraxe, full power shock trooper with leap attack yields a +18 attack for 1d10+ 6 str + 24 power attack + 2 knowledge devotion + 2 weapon = average of 40. This can be increases significantly with pounce - barb will probably be the 10th level. Rage is very strong with this character too, increasing AC, hit points, and damage.

A full attack with punishing stance is about the same, though it's 3 different attacks (thus some are bound to miss).

Emerald razor and insightful strike each give about 30 for a standard action.

Average hit points a little north of 100, he has con to AC twice, and good saves (that's the tanky part).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Trading out a single Ranger level for Whirlpounce Barbarian would approximately triple your damage output on a charge, making your damage competitive in mid to high op groups.

Edit: But now I see you need Ranger for Endurance and skill points. In that case, I'd trade out the Warblade level, oddly enough. With Steadfast Determination you're not going to need Moment of Perfect Mind. I guess you're going for Action Before Thought + Evasion, but again, triple damage output.

Also, if you're tanking your PA into AC, that somewhat defeats the purpose of investing all your build resources into stuff that gives you CON to AC, no?

[SowZ]

If it is on par with your group, don't worry about it. IMO, that is fairly close to the damage the designers expected you to be dealing. If a party of four people average 30 damage each on a CR9 encounter, it should last 2-3 rounds assuming there are misses/people deal with other things. Sounds about right.

Is it optimized? Not really. You could be averaging 40 damage at level one. But you could also be averaging 20. The playground could take your build and make it way more powerful. But that isn't really 'better.' Not if it makes the game less enjoyable.

If everyone likes going up against giants and having the encounters take a while because it feels more epic to yall that way, it is fine. Plus, you don't want to be doing 100 damage when everyone else is doing 25. At least, you shouldn't. Not unless your role is damage and everyone else has different roles that make them equally useful.

[limejuicepowder]

Also, if you're tanking your PA into AC, that somewhat defeats the purpose of investing all your build resources into stuff that gives you CON to AC, no?

Sacrificing the AC for a charge would still be worth it, if the damage was high enough. Wall of blades would also help with counterattacks, assuming he wasn't completely surrounded.

I'm also questioning how good the fist of the forest level is. It gives con to AC, but only if no armor is worn. Unless I seriously OP-out con, regular armor gives a better bonus. The deepwarden ability is still awesome, since that replaces dex with con for armor....speaking of, would armor limit the amount of con that would go towards AC?

Lastly, even if he gets hit, he has a lot of hit points.

[Gandariel]

Yeah, replace FotF with barbarian (with whirling frenzy and pounce)
if you need you'll be able to charge for good damage (three attacks)

Later on, if you get a better Con, you might as well take Fotf and get rid of the armor

There, simple and quick!

[Person_Man]

My personal rule of thumb for a semi-optimized group is that a low-mid level melee damage oriented build should be able to reliably (75%ish of the time) deal around 10*ECL damage per round. Another way of saying it is that you should be able to kill one CR appropriate enemy, or 2-4 weaker enemies, each round.

Once you factor in extra attacks, attacks of opportunity, damage multipliers, etc, it's really not that hard. Pretty much any class can do it if they invest enough resources into it, including Tier 5-6 losers like the Samurai. (Though there are a few exceptions - Healer, True Namer, etc).

[Ravens_cry]

If it is on par with your group, don't worry about it. IMO, that is fairly close to the damage the designers expected you to be dealing. If a party of four people average 30 damage each on a CR9 encounter, it should last 2-3 rounds assuming there are misses/people deal with other things. Sounds about right.

Exactly. Optimization can be a fun part of the game, but how high you take it really depends on what the group and the DM can and/or want to handle.