PF Homebrew System (PEACH)

[Razanir]

Howdy, Playground! You may remember me from some of my other homebrew like my massively overpowered hair feat or my short-lived series of Lord of the Rings homebrew. Anyway, I'm back and this time with an overhaul of Pathfinder.

Before I get into talking about my system, a few preliminary notices:
1) Material will be posted whenever I finish it and I'll maintain a library of hyperlinks in the OP
2) Sometimes I'll want to keep a few posts together (such as the sorcerer and his bloodlines). I will make a note at the bottom of posts if I don't want people to reply again yet
3) PEACH

Design goals and explanations:
1) Spells are no longer guaranteed to work. Fighters have to roll to hit something with a sword, why shouldn't spellcasters need to do the same?
2) Spell points not spell slots. This started as a PF conversion for Ernir's system, but expanded from there. And I agree that psionics is a much more elegant system than Vancian casting.
3) Everyone (all PC classes) has some form of magic. That's not to say that everyone will be good at casting, or will have a lot of spells, just that it's an option. Physical combat will still be preferable for fighters and spellcasting for wizards.
3a) Yes fighters and rogues have spells. However, these will taste more like maneuvers from ToB than regular spellcasting. Also, I think I've decided they'll even be in a 3rd division of spells– Martial (as opposed to arcane or divine)
4) Tiers 2-4. I don't expect to get bad classes to be amazing, but I also don't plan on nerfing full casters very much beyond the system switch. (Except the druid)
4a) I'm operating under the assumption that a psionics-based system caps tiers at 2 because even full manifesters aren't ranked any higher than that. If this assumption is wrong, please tell me

Classes that will no longer exist:
-Barbarians
-Druids
-Monks
-Paladins

New classes:
-3 flavors of clerics (champions, mystics and clerics). In order, combat-oriented, casting-oriented and a mix.
-Shamans. They're a mix between barbarians and druids

So yeah, feel free to reply with any comments on the system, otherwise I'll return in a few hours with a brief overview of casting and also the shaman

[Razanir]

I'll make this more verbose later, but for now, here's how casting will work:
1) Keeping with psionics, the base cost is level*2-1
2) The most spell points you can spend on a single spell (in most circumstances) is your caster level.
3) You gain bonus spell points from your main casting stat, using the same table as bonus power points
4) Spell Resistance becomes a stat that everyone has, much like AC
4a) SR = 10 + Save + Conditional shtuffs
4b) Evocations and conjurations use Reflex. Transmutations and necromancies use Fortitude. Everything else uses Will.
5) Spellcraft is now a stat also.
5a) Spellcraft = BSB (Base spellcraft bonus) + Wis mod + Conditional shtuffs
5b) Spellcraft DCs to hit someone = SR + 1/2 sp spent
5c) Spellcraft DCs to cast other spells = Sp spent + 10

BSB uses the same but opposite progressions as BAB. So Good BAB -> Poor BSB, Average -> Average, and Poor -> Good

So yeah, that's the casting system in a nutshell. Still to come with this is a new armor material for boosting SR.

[nonsi]

Quite a few nice concepts you got there, but I immediately detect several issues:
1. Seems like in your system everybody's a spellcaster, whereas there are so many characters roles that don't involve spells.
2. [SL*2-1] is not a credible formula to represent the overall power diff between the different spell levels.
3. Spell points pools don't work, in a sense that you either have too much or not enough, and in that you can NOVA until you burn out (power problems and too short workday). Before you go "hey man, what about your spell points", I say in advance that 1) those are not exactly spell points, so the too-much/not-enough issue doesn't arise ; 2) I took care of the NOVA part.

Nevertheless, those are just insights from my personal experience and I'm curious to see what you're cooking here.

[Razanir]

1. Seems like in your system everybody's a spellcaster, whereas there are so many characters roles that don't involve spells.

I'll still be trying to draw a distinction between physical and magical classes. The wizard will be good at casting his usual spells and not so good at physical combat (as normal). On the other hand, the fighter will be good at physical combat, but not as good at casting his spells, which will taste more like maneuvers. In fact, I might just declare a third set of spells separate from arcane and divine casting. Martial casting for fighters and rogues


2. [SL*2-1] is not a credible formula to represent the overall power diff between the different spell levels.

*shrugs* It works for psionics, at least.


3. Spell points pools don't work, in a sense that you either have too much or not enough, and in that you can NOVA until you burn out (power problems and too short workday). Before you go "hey man, what about your spell points", I say in advance that 1) those are not exactly spell points, so the too-much/not-enough issue doesn't arise ; 2) I took care of the NOVA part.

Yet again, it's based off psionics. Spell point progressions and costs are being taken directly from the subsystem.


Nevertheless, those are just insights from my personal experience and I'm curious to see what you're cooking here.

Yeah, some of the classes should be interesting. Two of my favorite ideas:
-The Shaman. Illiteracy, rage appropriate to his totem animal, about as much casting as a bard or psychic warrior, wild shape into his animal at higher levels, and a few minor druid abilities. I'll probably post it later today.
-The Fighter/Magus (Haven't picked which name). Good at physical combat and receives limited amounts of spell points and maneuver-flavored spells. Then to emulate spellstrike, I'll let him pick a small handful (maybe like 1/3 tops) of his spells known that he uses his BAB to cast. Those spells would also allow touch effects through his weapon (possibly restricted to melee)

[Razanir]

*Insert the scene from the Krusty Krab Training Video where is takes a hilariously long time to zoom in on that one fish*

The Shaman
Alignment: Any non-lawful
Hit Die: d8, d10 or d12, depending on totem animal
Class skills:
The shaman’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int Modifier

THE SHAMAN
{table=head]Level|BAB|BSB|Good Save|Poor Save|Special|Sp/day|Spells Known|Max Spell Level

1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Totem Animal, Rage, Totem Feat, Illiteracy|0|2|1st

2nd|+1|+1|+3|+0|Woodland Stride|2|3|1st

3rd|+2|+2|+3|+1|Trackless Step|4|4|1st

4th|+3|+3|+4|+1||8|5|2nd

5th|+3|+3|+4|+1|Totem Feat|12|5|2nd

6th|+4|+4|+5|+2||18|6|2nd

7th|+5|+5|+5|+2||24|7|3rd

8th|+6/+1|+6|+6|+2|Venom Immunity|32|8|3rd

9th|+6/+1|+6|+6|+3||40|8|3rd

10th|+7/+2|+7|+7|+3|Totem Feat|50|9|4th

11th|+8/+3|+8|+7|+3|Wildshape|60|10|4th

12th|+9/+4|+9|+8|+4||72|11|4th

13th|+9/+4|+9|+8|+4||84|11|5th

14th|+10/+5|+10|+9|+4||98|12|5th

15th|+11/+6/+1|+11|+9|+5|Totem Feat, Timeless Body|112|13|5th

16th|+12/+7/+2|+12|+10|+5||128|14|6th

17th|+12/+7/+2|+12|+10|+5||144|14|6th

18th|+13/+8/+3|+13|+11|+6||162|15|6th

19th|+14/+9/+4|+14|+11|+6||180|16|6th

20th|+15/+10/+5|+15|+12|+6|Totem Feat|200|17|6th

[/table]

Class Features
All the following are class features of the shaman.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Shamans are proficient with all simple weapons and light armor, as well as any natural weapons in their altered form. Shamans may not wear metal armor. A shaman who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast shaman spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

Spell Points/Day: A shaman's ability to cast spells is limited by the spell points she has available. Her base daily allotment of spell points is given on the table. In addition, she receives bonus spell points per day if she has a high Charisma score. Her race may also provide bonus spell points per day, as may certain feats and items.

Spells Known: A shaman begins play knowing one shaman spell of your choice. Each time she achieves a new level, she unlocks the knowledge of new spells. Choose the spells known from the full shaman spell list.
(Exceptions: The feats Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge allow a shaman to learn spells of other classes, including spells restricted to specialist Wizards.)

A shaman can cast any spell she knows that has a spell point cost equal to or lower than her caster level. The number of times a shaman can cast spells in a day is limited only by her daily spell points. A shaman simply knows her spells; they are ingrained in her mind, though she must get a good night's sleep each day to regain all her spent spell points. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against shaman spells is 10 + one-half the number of spell points spent on the spell (round up) + the shaman's Charisma modifier.

Spells learned via the shaman class are arcane spells.

Maximum Spell Level Known: A shaman begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level spells. As she attains higher levels, a shaman may gain the ability to master more complex spells, as shown on the table. To learn or cast a spell, a shaman must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level.

Animal Totem: At first level, a shaman chooses an animal that represents her tribe. This decides her hit dice and base saves. She receives a palm-sized wooden carving of this animal that she uses as a focus for all of her spells. If it is ever lost or destroyed, she may spend one day and 50 gp to carve a new one. She also gains bonus feats at 1st level, 5th level and every five levels thereafter, depending on her totem animal.

Rage (Ex): A shaman can call upon the power of her totem, granting her additional combat prowess, depending on the animal. Starting at 1st level, a shaman can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Charisma, such as those gained from rage and spells like wombat's boost, do not increase the total number of rounds that a shaman can rage per day. A shaman can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.

A shaman can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A shaman cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a shaman falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death.

Illiteracy: A shaman does not begin the game with the ability to read or write any languages except Druidic. Druidic is a secret language known only to shamans, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level shaman. Druidic is a free language for a shaman; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn't take up a language slot. Shamans are forbidden to teach this language to nonshamans.

Druidic has its own alphabet.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a shaman may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect her.

Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a shaman leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.

Venom Immunity (Ex): At 8th level, a shaman gains immunity to all poisons.

Wild Shape (Su): Beginning at 11th level, a shaman may go into a more powerful rage, where she becomes her totem animal. She gains higher bonuses for the duration of the rage and takes the form of the animal. The listed benefits replace all those given by a normal rage. In addition to the listed bonuses, change AC, CMD, CMB and attack bonuses as appropriate for the shaman's new size. The shaman also gains any extraordinary abilities possessed by her new form.

Timeless Body (Ex): After attaining 15th level, a shaman no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the shaman still dies of old age when her time is up.

[Razanir]

Reserved for shaman totems

[AttilaTheGeek]

I was brought here through the PEACH exchange (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263949&page=2). If you found my comments helpful, I'd appreciate a look at my Rune Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266101) Magus archetype.


1) Spells are no longer guaranteed to work. Fighters have to roll to hit something with a sword, why shouldn't spellcasters need to do the same?

I don't entirely disagree, but to play devil's advocate, here are some possible answers:
Spellcasters have a limited number of spells per day.
Many spells already give saving throws.
Casting in melee provokes attacks of opportunity.


The reason spellcasters are always in the higher tiers and considered more powerful is not that spellcasters out-damage the melee, especially because many creatures at high level have Spell Resistance, but it's because there are so many spells with out-of-combat applications that a straight Fighter can never match up. One of the issues that arises, no matter how you go about making spells random, is that casters are going to be even weaker at low levels. Even a fairly unoptimized fighter can out-damage a high-op wizard at first level, and it's only around level 4-5 that a Fighter and a Wizard of the same optimization level begin to equal out in terms of pure, in-combat damage. If I'm a 1st-level Wizard, and I've got two, maybe three Magic Missiles for 1d4+1, then there's no way I can compare to the 18-strength fighter hitting for 2d6+6 with a greatsword.


4) Spell Resistance becomes a stat that everyone has, much like AC
4a) SR = 10 + Save + Conditional shtuffs
4b) Evocations and conjurations use Reflex. Transmutations and necromancies use Fortitude. Everything else uses Will.
5) Spellcraft is now a stat also.
5a) Spellcraft = BSB (Base spellcraft bonus) + Wis mod + Conditional shtuffs
5b) Spellcraft DCs to hit someone = SR + 1/2 sp spent
5c) Spellcraft DCs to cast other spells = Sp spent + 10

BSB uses the same but opposite progressions as BAB. So Good BAB -> Poor BSB, Average -> Average, and Poor -> Good

This is a good method, and I like it, but it's not strictly better than other ways. I'm going to bring up several others as alternatives, and present the strengths and weaknesses of each. Regardless of how you do it, you're either going to introduce spell failure chance at first level, or at a higher level. If spell failure chance is a thing casters need to deal with from first level, then at very low levels, they're even less powerful in combat. On the flipside, if you say "No spell failure chance below level X", then a wizard is going to feel severely gimped when they finally hit level X. Instead of feeling excited for a new level and new spells, they've leveled up into a penalty, and are quite possibly weaker than they were a level ago. From there, the obvious solution is to phase it in, with a lower spell failure chance at lower level up to a higher chance at high level, but then the caster runs into the problem of having a bigger spell failure chance than they did before at every level.

There are a number of other good and bad things about giving spells a chance to fail, and I'll talk about them in the context of different methods of doing so. I know you've already decided on the SR method, but I think the other two are definitely worth considering.

--You could give every creature SR. This has the result of differentiating "creatures the melee should kill" from "creatures the casters should kill" (which is, in my opinion, a good thing that makes tactical combat more interesting), but DR kind of accomplishes this already. I worry that your current setup makes casting too difficult at low levels, and too easy at high levels. It also means that it's easier to hit a dragon with Magic Missile than Meteor Swarm because spell points spent is a component of the DC to hit someone. Is that intentional? Is that DC the same as SR? If not, does the character have to pass the DC and pass SR? If they do, I think that's coming down on casting a bit hard.

--Another option is giving each spell an arbitrary chance to fail. Similar to Arcane Spell Failure chance in armor, something like "When a caster casts a spell, it has a (5*caster level) % chance to fail. Of course, you'd have to do some mathematical modeling to get a reasonable spell failure curve that doesn't make casting impossible at 20th level- maybe a logarithmic or inverse relationship would work better.

--Alternatively, require a check to cast a spell. For example, a casting check of (1d20 + CL + casting stat modifier) versus (10 + 2 * spell level), adjusted for difficulty. You could even set the DC to (5 + 1/2 * spell level squared), which is almost reasonable, giving a 9th level spell around a 50% chance to fail at 20th level with a +15 modifier in the casting stat. This is good because it has almost no effect at low level, though if you do use the quadratic relationship you'd definitely want to alter it a bit.

The last major downside of the last two methods is their interaction with existing SR and Arcane Spell Failure chance from armor. Even with 15% ASF (which is reasonable for a gish), 40% chance to fail the casting check, and 20% chance to fail SR, they all compound for a more than 40% chance to fail any one of the three. (1-0.15)*(1-0.4)*(1-0.2) = 0.408

Now that I've finished this treatise on your first sentence, on to the rest of the system!


2) Spell points not spell slots. This started as a PF conversion for Ernir's system, but expanded from there. And I agree that psionics is a much more elegant system than Vancian casting.

Spell points and spell failure chance combine to solve a couple of problems I don't think you're attempting to solve, and introduce some new ones as well. Spell points make casters more versatile, not less, and does nothing to take a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid out of Tier 1. However, spell failure chance on spell points makes their spells less effective in combat, so you wind up with a character who's still incredibly powerful out of combat, and weak (especially at low levels) in combat. That's often not fun for the player, because the only quantifiable way to compare their character places them behind a Fighter, but out of combat they can outdo everyone else.


3) Everyone (all PC classes) has some form of magic. That's not to say that everyone will be good at casting, or will have a lot of spells, just that it's an option. Physical combat will still be preferable for fighters and spellcasting for wizards.
3a) Yes fighters and rogues have spells. However, these will taste more like maneuvers from ToB than regular spellcasting. Also, I think I've decided they'll even be in a 3rd division of spells– Martial (as opposed to arcane or divine)

This is definitely cool. You might want to check out 4e's four "power sources": Arcane, Divine, Martial, and Primal.


4) Tiers 2-4. I don't expect to get bad classes to be amazing, but I also don't plan on nerfing full casters very much beyond the system switch. (Except the druid)

Tier 1 isn't about power, it's about versatility. It's about being able to do something better than someone else who's specialized in it, and more, like the way Knock, a second-level spell, completely invalidates the party rogue. The only way to fully take a caster out of T1 is to go through their entire spell list and remove every offending spell.


Classes that will no longer exist:
-Barbarians
-Druids
-Monks
-Paladins

New classes:
-3 flavors of clerics (champions, mystics and clerics). In order, combat-oriented, casting-oriented and a mix.
-Shamans. They're a mix between barbarians and druids

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why replace the Paladin with a "combat-oriented flavor of cleric" with a different name? And what does the Shaman give that the Barbarian and Druid don't? I think that replacing two classes with one limits the possible characters that can be created. For example, in a system with shaman instead of barbarian, what class would Thog be? A fighter? Or could you imagine him casting 5th or 6th level spells?


Two of my favorite ideas:
(Shaman snip)
-The Fighter/Magus (Haven't picked which name). Good at physical combat and receives limited amounts of spell points and maneuver-flavored spells. Then to emulate spellstrike, I'll let him pick a small handful (maybe like 1/3 tops) of his spells known that he uses his BAB to cast. Those spells would also allow touch effects through his weapon (possibly restricted to melee)

That sounds kind of similar to my Rune Knight, actually. If you want to PM me, we could work something out?

Overall, I think this is a very interesting alternate system. I haven't had experience with spell points, so I wonder how giving them to every class would affect balance. I think limiting casters is a good thing, but there's a very vague and fine line between bringing casting classes into balance and nerfing them to the ground. Still, I like the mechanics, and I can't wait to see it all pan out.

[Razanir]

--You could give every creature SR. This has the result of differentiating "creatures the melee should kill" from "creatures the casters should kill" (which is, in my opinion, a good thing that makes tactical combat more interesting), but DR kind of accomplishes this already.

Every creature has some amount of SR, even if for most it's just a saving throw.


I worry that your current setup makes casting too difficult at low levels, and too easy at high levels. It also means that it's easier to hit a dragon with Magic Missile than Meteor Swarm because spell points spent is a component of the DC to hit someone. Is that intentional? Is that DC the same as SR? If not, does the character have to pass the DC and pass SR? If they do, I think that's coming down on casting a bit hard.

The DC is intended to be (more or less) the same as SR, yes. And I'll look at the setup more closely. This is really a compilation of 2 3.5e systems with a few additions of my own. If you want to see the inspiration for the SR formula, look at deepbluediver's fix. I tried modifying his formula slightly to account for the psionic system.


--Alternatively, require a check to cast a spell. For example, a casting check of (1d20 + CL + casting stat modifier) versus (10 + 2 * spell level), adjusted for difficulty. You could even set the DC to (5 + 1/2 * spell level squared), which is almost reasonable, giving a 9th level spell around a 50% chance to fail at 20th level with a +15 modifier in the casting stat. This is good because it has almost no effect at low level, though if you do use the quadratic relationship you'd definitely want to alter it a bit.

It's effectively that. I should probably rewrite that post, but clearer... You effectively described how the casting system works. The only differences are the not everyone gets their full caster level, and spell points. You can augment spells, so if you spend 20 points on a spell, I think it should be just as difficult, whether it's a super-augmented magic missile or a hardly-augmented wish


The last major downside of the last two methods is their interaction with existing SR and Arcane Spell Failure chance from armor. Even with 15% ASF (which is reasonable for a gish), 40% chance to fail the casting check, and 20% chance to fail SR, they all compound for a more than 40% chance to fail any one of the three. (1-0.15)*(1-0.4)*(1-0.2) = 0.408

This SR is the old one. Monsters that already had SR just get a natural bonus in this system. Also, the more gishy classes will get class abilities to ignore ACF, eventually, on all but the heaviest armor


Spell points and spell failure chance combine to solve a couple of problems I don't think you're attempting to solve, and introduce some new ones as well. Spell points make casters more versatile, not less, and does nothing to take a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid out of Tier 1. However, spell failure chance on spell points makes their spells less effective in combat, so you wind up with a character who's still incredibly powerful out of combat, and weak (especially at low levels) in combat. That's often not fun for the player, because the only quantifiable way to compare their character places them behind a Fighter, but out of combat they can outdo everyone else.

Huh. I was under an assumption that making a psion-flavored wizard would bump it down a tier. Yeah, I really need to do a nice write-up of the casting system as a whole. Looks like I know what's next on my to do list.


This is definitely cool. You might want to check out 4e's four "power sources": Arcane, Divine, Martial, and Primal.

As much as I dislike 4e, I might just have to borrow that


If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why replace the Paladin with a "combat-oriented flavor of cleric" with a different name? And what does the Shaman give that the Barbarian and Druid don't? I think that replacing two classes with one limits the possible characters that can be created. For example, in a system with shaman instead of barbarian, what class would Thog be? A fighter? Or could you imagine him casting 5th or 6th level spells?

A brief history of my system that might explain these:
-Razanir sees Ernir's Vancian to Psionics homebrew
-Decides to make a PF version
-Sees deepbluediver's rebalance
-Okay, that's a cool idea. Especially his 3 flavors of cleric
-Well wait a minute. If I'm already giving paladins bard-level casting, isn't that starting to be redundant?
-Okay. Pallies and combat clerics get conflated
-Similar logic with barbarians and druids

And yes, Thog would probably be a fighter in my system. They'll still be a fairly generic class, even more so now. However, this does give me the idea to make a rage spell


Overall, I think this is a very interesting alternate system. I haven't had experience with spell points, so I wonder how giving them to every class would affect balance. I think limiting casters is a good thing, but there's a very vague and fine line between bringing casting classes into balance and nerfing them to the ground. Still, I like the mechanics, and I can't wait to see it all pan out.

Perhaps "rebalance" wasn't the best word. I really just used it because it sounded like everyone would be... closER in strength

[AttilaTheGeek]

Quick question- you mentioned shaman totems. Is this shaman modeled after the WoW shaman? (Either of Cataclysm or the very different Pandaria shaman). If so, I can help out a lot- one of my best friends played a shaman.

[Razanir]

Quick question- you mentioned shaman totems. Is this shaman modeled after the WoW shaman? (Either of Cataclysm or the very different Pandaria shaman). If so, I can help out a lot- one of my best friends played a shaman.

No, it's modeled after totem barbarians from UA

[AttilaTheGeek]

Oh, okay. (blah, blah, 10 characters, blah de blah de blah)