Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent / Midnight Augmentation

[Gazzien]

I recently ran across the Psycarnum Warrior build at Wizards ( http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29402883/Weekly_Optimization_Showcase:_The_Psycarnum_Warrio r ) and this trick is confusing me.

Could someone explain to me how / why it works? I feel like it makes sense that you can fill the feat with it, but not more than once? Is there a trick that I'm missing?

(Note: I don't tend to optimize much, but this trick would be fun to pull, once. So if you could keep the terms simple, that'd be really nice, thanks...)

[Deophaun]

You are also going to need Psionic Meditation to make it work, but here's how it functions (I think).

You have a level 5 Psychic Warrior that is out of PP. He has Psycarnum Infusion, Azure Talent, and Psionic Meditation. He never put any essentia into Azure Talent, so it is empty. He uses Psicrystal Containment to spend his psionic focus and uses that fuel Psycarnum Infusion, treating Azure Talent as it was was fully invested, giving him 2 temporary PP which he has to spend before the start of his next turn. He then uses Psionic Meditation to spend a move action to regain his psionic focus before spending those PP. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The trick is, you are never actually investing essentia into Azure Talent. You are simply treating it as if it is fully invested. So, you never trip the 1/day limit.

[sreservoir]

it doesn't actually work if you're out of pp: you need at least 1 pp to gain focus.

also, it's, uh, not temporary. in some respects, it would be simpler if it were temporary, but as written, it's just bonus pp, which calls up ?? arguments about, what, do you keep them after psycarnum infusion expires? if so, can you choose to spend the pp that would expire before spending the non-expirable pp?

... it's contentious for a reason. personally, I subscribe to the bonus-pp-persists-without-duration reading, but, is not a thing would use because headaches.

[Deophaun]

it doesn't actually work if you're out of pp: you need at least 1 pp to gain focus.
Which is why you have Psionic Meditation.

Really, just read my post.

[Gazzien]

Okay, so basically you end up refocusing again and again to get a lot of power points for 'no cost'. Is that also how it works with Midnight Augmentation / Midnight Metamagic?

[Deophaun]

Okay, so basically you end up refocusing again and again to get a lot of power points for 'no cost'. Is that also how it works with Psycarnum Augment / Midnight Metamagic?
You don't get a lot of power points. You have to be "on empty" for this to work. So a level 5 Psychic Warrior is only going to have 2 PP to play with at any given time while doing this.

As for midnight metamagic, I don't actually think that works. "Once per day... choose..." Psycarnum Infusion can't be used to do an end run around the limit, as you can only choose the spells affected when you invest essentia.

[TuggyNE]

Note: I don't tend to optimize much, but this trick would be fun to pull, once.

I don't really recommend using this trick in a normal game, unless you know it's pretty high-power already: this is pretty cheesy. Unless you want to use the trick more than you want to keep your friends' trust and respect, of course....

(Lacking MoI, I can't really explain the trick myself either, even for academic purposes. :smallsigh:)

[Gazzien]

I don't really recommend using this trick in a normal game, unless you know it's pretty high-power already: this is pretty cheesy. Unless you want to use the trick more than you want to keep your friends' trust and respect, of course....

(Lacking MoI, I can't really explain the trick myself either, even for academic purposes. :smallsigh:)

The rule with our optimizing tricks tends to be "do it once, then never again, if/when that character dies/ is retired."

So like I said, once.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The rule with our optimizing tricks tends to be "do it once, then never again, if/when that character dies/ is retired."

So like I said, once.

You could always dump them into one or more cognizance crystals if you're not in the middle of combat, then use them to fuel that one power that lets you pay 3pp to give the target 2pp bestow power and refill your PP reserve.

[Psyren]

As stated earlier in the thread, the contention with repeating this trick is not the investment aspect, but the "bonus power point" aspect. So you may want to talk to your DM. From my perspective, I would stick to using this 1/day, at least with Azure Talent. Doing it multiple times with Midnight Augmentation is still balanced (provided you go with the "total augmentation" interpretation rather than the "per augmentation" one) because doing so requires two foci.

I do love the synergy between psionics and incarnum; Soul Manifester is one of my favorite PrCs.

[sreservoir]

Which is why you have Psionic Meditation.

Really, just read my post.

that still doesn't let you focus when you don't have any pp.

[Psyren]

By "on empty," I think he meant that Azure Talent's reserve had been spent, not that the manifester had no PP left at all. In other words, if you allow this to work multiple times (i.e. reading "bonus power points" as being equal to "temporary power points") each Infusion will overlap with the previous one and reset your PP from Azure Talent. For example, if you did this at level 4, you could expend focus to Infuse for 4PP, spend them on a power and regain focus as a move action, then expend to infuse again the following round to reset to 4PP - all without touching your regular reserve.

As an aside, that's another thing about PF Psionics that I like - you can focus even when your PP are gone.