Swash 3 Rogue 5 Fighter 4...? Gonna get this right one day!

[Shadowdagger213]

I can't seem to stop having ideas...

I want to keep it simple, but simple never seems to stay that way... LOL

What are the thoughts on Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2) vs. Daring Outlaw?

INT to all Finesse weapons vs. +2 ATT & DMG with ALL weapons of one damage type?

Or, as the title of the thread implies.... all the above?

High Dex and INT, Weapon Finesse (Free from the Swashbuckler), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization: Rapier for the example. Assume a 18 in INT, 20 Dex, 16 STR, 16 WIS, 15 CON and 14 CHA.

BAB @ lvl 12 would = +10/+5

TO HIT: +5 Finesse, +1 Focus, +2 Mastery

Damage: +3 STR, +4 INT, +2 Specialization, +2 Mastery

... all before shopping.


And I still may go with Ancestral Relic... Dad's old archaic yet well balanced weapon, used in service to doing "secret stuff" for the Temple of Olidammara...(+4 and something with a monetary bonus equal or less than 8000gp, gotta keep it at or less than 44,000gp for level 12)

Voila, magic weapon with no spellcasting! (Backstory is the key)....

Deadly with pointy things, stealthy-ish with only 5 levels of Hide/MS, Olympic Hopeful Gymnast and moves like a cat.

Feats to consider: Ancestral Relic, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Daring Outlaw (Daring Warrior maybe, but having both would not stack and I'd rather have the sneak attack! :haley: ), Melee Weapon Mastery, Telling Blow, *Agile Athlete, Improved Critical and room for one more.

Movement Skill tricks out the a$$ focusing on balance, tumble and jump.

Thoughts? (I named myself "Shadowdagger" for a reason, with all of the posts I've made about spellcasters and deities gish-types and such... I've forgotten why I came here in the first place. I originally didn't want to multi-class but I've read all over that Rogues need a secondary melee damage source to survive the encounters that don't let you S/A.... with this build I may not even have to!)


Thoughts......? :belkar:

[Urpriest]

The four fighter levels really cut down on your Sneak Attack, without giving you all that much in return (+2 atk and +4 damage from Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery, versus 2d6 more sneak attack for an average of 7 damage, kind of a wash). If you're worried about sneak attacking things that are immune, grab one of the ACFs that bypass that from Dungeonscape or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, or stock up on wands of Gravestrike/Vinestrike/Golemstrike and/or weapon crystals that reproduce them.

Rogue 5 is also not useful. You should be taking only 3-4 levels of Rogue to avoid losing more BAB, since Swashbuckler advances Sneak Attack with Daring Outlaw.

Put Rogue levels at the beginning of the build, or at least at first level, for the skill points. The only reason to consider starting with Swashbuckler is if you're playing starting from low level and you need the extra hp/Weapon Finesse.

Telling Blow won't trigger very often, and doesn't stack with your normal sneak attack IIRC.

[Shadowdagger213]

Wasn't shooting for uber-massive damage, just looking for damage against everything....if I can set up sneak attack, great. If I get a critical hit, telling blow fires off, if it's undead, I think a rapier doing 1d6+11 is ok per hit. And remember... as of this post, even if I go with Ancestral Relic, the weapon isn't even enchanted yet. I may just go +4 and just be good at hitting stuff. Or +3 Rapier of (MIC Gimped) Deadly Precision to get that extra 1d6 of sneak attack back. Ancestral Weapon will only let me get 44,000 gp of enchantment. Which is a weird cut off anyway, because the feat won't let you change the material of the weapon, +4 weapon is 32,000, and +5 is 50,000.

Does anyone know of an enchantment that costs flat money and is worth about 8,000 gp or less? I wanna go weapon shopping! :belkar:

[Kobold Esq]

Does anyone know of an enchantment that costs flat money and is worth about 8,000 gp or less? I wanna go weapon shopping! :belkar:

Quick glance at MIC:

Vanishing +8000 (1/day teleport away a short distance after attack)

Or a combination:

Illuminating (+500) - makes the weapon light up
Everbright (+2000) - Makes the weapon immune to rust and acid (2/day blinding attack)
Slow Burst (+5000) - On successful critical, target is slowed for 3 rounds (not bad if it is a rapier)

[Theoboldi]

Actually, something that you should remember is that the damage added by Insightful Strike is precision damage. You won't get it against undead and the like. I really hate to be a rules-layer on this, especially considering swashbuckler is weak enough already, but most people don't seem to know this.

[Drelua]

For your levels, I'd recommend switching it to Rogue 3 or 4/Swashbuckler X, since Fighter really doesn't add that much over Swashbuckler and cripples your skill progression and your SA unless you take SA fighter, in which case you're still losing skills and a few other things just for Weapon Specialization, a pretty small bonus. To get the most out of your Rogue skills, your progression should be something like Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 8/Rogue +3. That way, you can max out a few skills instead of having a lot of skills that are too low to be very useful. Also, dropping a Rogue level gets you an extra point of BAB.

As for the weapon, how about a +1 keen prismatic burst kukri? That's a total of 38,300 gp and prismatic burst makes those crits useful even if your target's immune, since the spell still triggers. You should be able to use some of what Kobold Esq suggested to get close to 44,000. Then get TWF since you have the DEX for it and a keen kukri for an offhand weapon and Telling Blow starts to be worth it. The feats you need are TWF, ITWF, Telling Blow, and maybe Craven to add your character level to SA damage. If you have room for it, improved crit (kukri) at level 9 might be a good idea so you don't have to pay for keen on both weapons.

[Shadowdagger213]

I thought about it all day today and I think I'm gonna keep it really simple:

Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 5....

Wazoo skills, semi substantial flanking buddy, Hide in plain sight (with skill trick "Shrouded Dance" for those hard to reach "well lit" places, light crossbow for ranged SA (maybe Crossbow Sniper) or Composite Shortbow, Rapid Reload (?).... hmm

Combat Reflexes, Dodge and Mobility for Pre-Req's...

With a DEX of 20 (before shopping) and a STR of 15, he should definately go ranged for main weapon of course. But after meeting the pre-req's for Shadowdancer, he only gets 3 more feats. Light Crossbow for d8's and lots of feats FTW, or Composite Shortbow for d6's and... what?

[Urpriest]

I thought about it all day today and I think I'm gonna keep it really simple:

Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 5....

Wazoo skills, semi substantial flanking buddy, Hide in plain sight (with skill trick "Shrouded Dance" for those hard to reach "well lit" places, light crossbow for ranged SA (maybe Crossbow Sniper) or Composite Shortbow, Rapid Reload (?).... hmm

Combat Reflexes, Dodge and Mobility for Pre-Req's...

With a DEX of 20 (before shopping) and a STR of 15, he should definately go ranged for main weapon of course. But after meeting the pre-req's for Shadowdancer, he only gets 3 more feats. Light Crossbow for d8's and lots of feats FTW, or Composite Shortbow for d6's and... what?

Do you need to take that many levels of Shadowdancer? You'd probably be better off just taking one, and the rest Rogue.

Light Crossbow takes more feats to get off the ground, while with Shortbow it will be easier to get Rapid Shot for more SA.

[Shadowdagger213]

Do you need to take that many levels of Shadowdancer? You'd probably be better off just taking one, and the rest Rogue.

Light Crossbow takes more feats to get off the ground, while with Shortbow it will be easier to get Rapid Shot for more SA.


This is a solo adventure and I am the PC, and we all know that Rogue + Flanking = WIN, so I wanted the Shadow. Plus I wanted the Shadow Jump. Can't fly, levitate, dimension door or any thing. But in the 6 seconds it may take to cast either of those spells, one thing I CAN do is light a match and make some shadows! I think for levels I'm right around where I want to be. This isn't a power game, I'm trying to be rounded too.

As for the Shortbow vs. Crossbow, I see your point. Can't get that nifty 1/2 DEX to damage with a Comp. Shortbow, but I can figure something. Plus I like the visual of the super strong Uber Mongol shortbow on me as my main ranged weapon. Just have to figure out how to be decent in melee with only 3 feats to spare, or how to not get into melee at all. :elan:

[TaiLiu]

Rogue + Flanking = WIN

Have you looked at the Wild Cohort feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)?

[Urpriest]

This is a solo adventure and I am the PC, and we all know that Rogue + Flanking = WIN, so I wanted the Shadow. Plus I wanted the Shadow Jump. Can't fly, levitate, dimension door or any thing. But in the 6 seconds it may take to cast either of those spells, one thing I CAN do is light a match and make some shadows! I think for levels I'm right around where I want to be. This isn't a power game, I'm trying to be rounded too.

As for the Shortbow vs. Crossbow, I see your point. Can't get that nifty 1/2 DEX to damage with a Comp. Shortbow, but I can figure something. Plus I like the visual of the super strong Uber Mongol shortbow on me as my main ranged weapon. Just have to figure out how to be decent in melee with only 3 feats to spare, or how to not get into melee at all. :elan:

You can't flank with a ranged weapon, so unless you want to switch off between melee and range (sort of expensive both in feats and magic weapons) the flanking partner won't be very helpful.

I'd highly recommend specializing in one or the other. If nobody can see you, nobody can make attacks of opportunity on you, so as long as you're able to stay hidden you can shoot your foes with no reprisals. You just need to make sure you've got a Hide bonus high enough so you can take the -20 penalty for hiding while attacking.

Dimension door is nice, but you can get the same effect from magic items, depending on your sources, and more times per day.

[Jornophelanthas]

Consider the following build:

Rogue 4 / Swordsage 2 / Swashbuckler X

Rogue 4 will give you evasion and uncanny dodge while only sacrificing 1d6 sneak attack, Swordsage 2 will give you a set of martial maneuvers and a stance (see below for suggestions) at the cost of only 1d6 sneak attack, while Swashbuckler will give you Insightful Strike. Take Daring Outlaw, and you also get full sneak attack progression with full Base Attack Bonus and d10 hit dice.

Feat suggestions:

- Two Weapon Fighting

- Combat Reflexes -> Versatile Flanking (PHB2, increases your flanking bonus)

- Shadow Blade (Tome of Battle, allows you to add DEX modifier to damage as long as you are in a Shadow Hand stance wielding a Shadow Hand weapon)

- Consider the Island of Blades stance, as this will give you flanking benefits to any foe as long as it is adjacent you and an ally, REGARDLESS of how you and your ally are positioned.

Now all you need is an ally standing next to you, and you will be able to full-attack melee with sneak attack on each strike, and add STR, DEX and INT to your damage rolls as well. And the Versatile Flanking feat compensates for the two levels that do not give you Base Attack Bonus.

[Shadowdagger213]

Given that the main challenge for this solo campaign that I am playing is to play a class/mix that I have never played before, how viable would a Bard/Rogue be?

Level 12 Bard/Rogue (or Rogue/Bard)

No prestige classes, no ToB multiclassing or maneuvers, maybe MIC weapons (I have a love of crafting, so the challenge here is to come up with enchantments that a Bard could put on a weapon, even though the spell Master's Touch is DEFINATELY going on the spell list!), No Spell Compendium and no Dragon Magazine references. I may be able to get away with Complete Champion spells and or feats if they are available.

Combos I've considered:

Bard 7/Rogue 5 (Practiced Spellcaster)
Human Paragon 3/Bard 9 (Practiced Spellcaster, Extra Feat)
Bard 8/Fighter 4 (Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing, Arcane strike)
Bard 9/Swashbuckler 3 - (Just seems right!)
Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Bard 6 (Practiced Spellcaster, Daring Outlaw) :elan: :haley:


Which one?

[Shadowdagger213]

Thanks to all for their help in this endeavor. I believe I have found my class(es) and I am now trying to make this character the most fun I've had for a long time! Starting another post, calling it "Song, Silence and Stabby - Make my Bard Rock!"

While I still need to find a way to give a solo Bard a little more damage in a fight, skills will not be a big problem. DM has always agreed that cross class characters should not have to spend cross class skills points for skills they already possess from their other classes, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I have decided to go with Human Paragon 3/ Bard 9

11th level caster, free martial weapon proficiency with one weapon, extra feat and 10 skills of my choice as class skills! Just gonna take the skills that the rogue would get that the bard lacks (like spot for one!)

Just need to figure out how to get a little more damage from physical attacks, arcane strike is one I guess, but this build is about flavor and fun, not fatality (though fatality would be awesome!!)

Thanks to Rich Berlew for Order of the Stick. I've read almost all 800+ in the better part of 2 weeks!