Changes in Monk tier from ACFs

[Lans]

Wild Monk, Dragon 324 p97

Its basically Monk: The Overpowered Mundane

and actually, you keep 50'/round of their fast movement, but lose slow fall, the bonus feats, and the monk "Signatures" that are generally agreed to be terribad

every other Monk ACF taken together isnt actually enough to solidly move them into T4 from 3.5, Wild monk does it by shoveling away garbage for gold

I disagree, martial monk can grab melee weapon mastery, weapon supremacy, and dire charge as his monk bonus feats and hit about on par as a barbarian for 3/4-2/4 battles a day. Add in invisible fist and the monk will have higher hit than the barbarian for 1 round every combat, as well as greater defenses.

[Psyren]

Never read Wild Monk so I can't speak to it, but a monk with wildshape would indeed be at least T4.

Pathfinder Monk does change tier from archetypes - most notably, T4 with Zen Archer/Tetori, and T3 with Qinggong.

[Lans]

The quote is a little out of context, it is only discussing 3.5 ACFs

[Snowbluff]

Martial Monk works, because monk is the worst class in the game.

Worst features.

Worst wording (Martial Monk is this).

Worst Flavor. I wanted Friar.

I would give them Truenamer's tier, but they are also the worst at holding in an unimaginably bad tier rating.

[darksolitaire]

I'm not at all enticed by the Wild Monk. At first they lose many good skills for Knowledge nature and survival, and next their bonus feats. They get their 1st, 2nd and 3rd wild shapes at levels 5, 8 and 10. You pretty much give early game benefit for late game prowess. How can monk afford that?

[Psyren]

You don't get Druid Wildshape until 5 anyway, so what's the big deal?

[Averis Vol]

You don't get Druid Wildshape until 5 anyway, so what's the big deal?

druids also have spells to make them relevant up until that point, and then they have natural spell to keep it going period.

[Psyren]

druids also have spells to make them relevant up until that point, and then they have natural spell to keep it going period.

Spells make you T1, but you don't need them to be "relevant." Again, I haven't read Wild Monk, but wild shape alone should put it ahead of the normal one.

[Mato]

I have no idea on the Wild Monk either and and I learned over the years it is impossible to discuss tiers. - Each side would rather argue about how their favorite class should be listed higher than the other guy's. - But, character optimization and play skill trumps tiers to a point it doesn't matter anyway. You don't need a 5,000 character long explanation to understand more magic = more power.

In this case, trade away a mundane trick for a magical shape altering effect. Obviously you're doing better than before.

[Averis Vol]

Spells make you T1, but you don't need them to be "relevant." Again, I haven't read Wild Monk, but wild shape alone should put it ahead of the normal one.

If druids didn't have spells for those first five levels though, they would be just as bad as the monk, who largely remains, at least in sense of the tiers, irrelevant. I definitely agree that spells make you tier1, I was just pointing out my believed reason why Darksolitaire would say that monks are giving up early game use for late game prowess.

EDIT:I mean by "If druids didn't have spells for those first five levels though, they would be just as bad as the monk" just for those 5 levels, didn't mean if they just didn't get spells for the first 5 level and did for the rest of the progression.

[Mato]

fyi

Wild Monk
1: Furry of Blows, Unarmed Strike.
2: Evasion.
3: Resist Nature's Lure (+4 saves vs a fey sla).
4: Ki Strike (magic).
5: Purity of Body.
6: Wild Shape (1/day).
7: Wholeness of Body.
8: Wild Shape (2/day).
etc.

It pretty much costs your AC Bonus, Feats, Slow Fall, and Fast Movement. Honestly it's a pretty high cost and I wouldn't recommend it.

Now now, hear me out. The chief components of obtain Wild Shape is that it reduces MAD by allowing you to Wild Shape into a more physical form and *maybe* obtain a useful Extraordinary ability and/or flight. However, this is a dire cost. For instance Slow Fall can be traded away for Wall Walker so you can at least touch the three dimensional world by negating Climb checks as you zip around and up impossible cliffs. And by next level Dire Bats are cheap effective methods of flying around so you're not gaining flight using Wild Shape, you are potentially limiting your self. This replace physical sounds like a boon, but you're forgetting those Bonus Feats help you enter Shiba Protector (+wis to att/dmg) or any any other +X trait (zen archery for example), and later on when you can simply buy PAO or other shape changing effects your end result becomes far weaker than if you didn't trade those other bonuses away. And speaking of later level, three Bonus Feats will last a life time, but if you PrC out of Monk you'll always be stuck with a 6HD animal limitation since all the Wild Shape increasing PrCs I know of are Druid based and expect spellcasting.

Since I'd be pressed to even justify using Wild Monk over a standard one simply because one can PrC out without penalizing his ACF choice. It's easy to say the Martial Monk is the superior of the two. Given that Martial trades away very little in exchange to pick up some very powerful Feats several levels sooner than you should thanks to the author's poor hindsight it's far better than standard Monk and you'd never hesitate picking it up if given the option.

[toapat]

you dont lose the Wisdom to AC. the largest loss of Wild Monk is the skill listwhich is completely raped. and bonus feats, otherwise you lose weak class features

Oh, and the Unarmed Strikes die increase? vague enough to apply to natural weapons. Sure, you still arent proficient with your best weapons, but you trade weakness for strength. Before 5th level? ya, the Wild Monk is abysmal. Afterwards? Wild Monk is Uber

And wildshape is for general use, you make up for your first 4 levels of suck by Turning into a bear and atoning immediately by being a big fat, furry ball of cuddly death

[JaronK]

Unarmed Strikes are actually in addition to natural attacks, so it's even better than upgrading your natural attacks.

JaronK

[Alabenson]

If druids didn't have spells for those first five levels though, they would be just as bad as the monk, who largely remains, at least in sense of the tiers, irrelevant. I definitely agree that spells make you tier1, I was just pointing out my believed reason why Darksolitaire would say that monks are giving up early game use for late game prowess.

EDIT:I mean by "If druids didn't have spells for those first five levels though, they would be just as bad as the monk" just for those 5 levels, didn't mean if they just didn't get spells for the first 5 level and did for the rest of the progression.

Even if druid didn't get their spells for those levels, they'd still have their animal companion, which would still make them more relevant than a monk.

[Mato]

you dont lose the Wisdom to AC. ...And wildshape is for general use, you make up for your first 4 levels of suck by Turning into a bear and atoning immediately by being a big fat, furry ball of cuddly deathNow I know I barely read through the Wild Monk, but the PDF was open when copied the level list over. There is no AC Bonus or 4th level Wild Shape on the table. I can recheck the text entries when I get home, but given that you didn't mention anything about a table vs text error I'm not expecting much.


Unarmed Strikes are actually in addition to natural attacks, so it's even better than upgrading your natural attacks.You're right that they do, but then you run into did my Race grant Natural Attacks? Can I PAO into something with Natural Attacks? And so on.

And that is the Standard Monk. The Martial Variant picks up Greater Two Weapon Fighting at level 1. Again that is through shoddy wording of course. And while I agree it needs to be beat with a nerf bat, it is what it is. And what it is, is in every way better than the Wild Monk which is the crutch of Lans's (the OP) post.

I'm not saying Wild Shape is poor, in fact I has initially happy and agreed Wild Shape should be better. It's just going into the details I'm not finding it as useful as you might hope it would be. I mean, asking for a Reincarnate or PAO (which 6th level WBL supports) completely replaces this variant so when you're talking from a simple optimization stand point it's a bad trade to begin with.

Then as Alabenson brings up, the Druid has an Animal Companion backing them up and spellcasting as their core component. At level 5 when they acquire Wild Shape as an after thought and can PrC out while continuing spellcasting and Wild Shape advancement. The Wild Monk? They get Furry of Blows and failtastic abilities no one liked to begin with and after picking up Wild Shape a level late have to look at picking up even more levels in this failing class to maintain it. Of course the Druid loves Wild Shape, he is so powerful the he tosses down Entangle and then beats people senseless with magically enhanced fangsinyourface as entertainment. The WM is solely dependent on it validating his life, but it instead becomes a trap forcing him to continue advancing Monk to keep the HD limit relevant. It is just... Expected. It's a Monk, they suck so hard they keep Barbarians around to make them selves feel better. So of course a Monk would find a way to make Wild Shape fail.

[Phelix-Mu]

What if wild monk also granted an animal companion? Would that make it more attractive? (sounds like it could hardly make it less attractive.) I guess we should at least tack on UMD so that there is a way to heal the companion.

It seems weird that it doesn't at least grant one as a ranger, but I guess they were trying to keep the appeal of a straightforward, bookkeeping-lite martial class.

Personally, I like monk. They aren't a strong class, but they have interesting flavor, and pose a nice challenge for my optimization skills. I agree that, in addition to being poorly designed from the start, monks also suffer from a number of ACFs/variants that are also poorly conceived, not to mention a huge amount of support for them is setting specific. Wall Walker, a couple of the Complete Champion ACFs, and some of the Planar Handbook stuff are the only ones that I considered. This issue with feat choices for the bonus feats is mind-blowing...they just need to make a single list of options, and you can choose from that list at each level you get a bonus feat.

Where is the martial monk variant from, by the by?

[toapat]

Now I know I barely read through the Wild Monk, but the PDF was open when copied the level list over. There is no AC Bonus or 4th level Wild Shape on the table. I can recheck the text entries when I get home, but given that you didn't mention anything about a table vs text error I'm not expecting much.

Monk AC bonus isnt on the Special Abilities bar at all, it is a Sidebar. I spent 10 minutes crossrefferencing the lists trying to figure out if the Index or you were correct, you are not. And i said you have 4 levels of suck, not 3.

Marshal Varient monk can take epic feats at level 1, sure. that ignores the fact that most feats are still not worth taking on monk, even if you can bypass their requirements.

[Curmudgeon]

Marshal Varient monk can take epic feats at level 1, sure.
Well, that's nonsense. The Monk Bonus Feat class feature lists 6 specific feats and says "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." Gaining Fighter bonus feats doesn't change the list of 6 feats excepted from prerequisites.

[toapat]

Well, that's nonsense. The Monk Bonus Feat class feature lists 6 specific feats and says "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." Gaining Fighter bonus feats doesn't change the list of 6 feats excepted from prerequisites.

Martial Varient monk: You add the Fighter Bonus Feat list to your choices for monk bonus feats.

Im getting tired of you showing up and using the DMG as the bible for the rules.

[JaronK]

Martial Monk does by RAW grant any Fighter bonus feat without prerequisites (which is clearly not intended, but it is RAW), but it doesn't give you any epic feats since those aren't Fighter bonus feats. Epic Fighter Bonus Feats aren't actually the same thing as Fighter Bonus Feats.

Still pretty silly, since you can get Weapon Supremacy and such very early on.

JaronK

[nedz]

What if wild monk also granted an animal companion? Would that make it more attractive? (sounds like it could hardly make it less attractive.) I guess we should at least tack on UMD so that there is a way to heal the companion.

...

Where is the martial monk variant from, by the by?

If you gave it a druid companion instead, it wouldn't need UMD.

Martial Monk is from Dragon #310

My favourite though is the Sidewinder Monk from Dragon #331
It's choice of bonus feats are:
Level 1: Persuasive or Stealthy
Level 2: Improved Feint or Mobility. It does get +1 Bluff as well though.

And people say that the core Monk is bad.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you gave it a druid companion instead, it wouldn't need UMD.

Martial Monk is from Dragon #310

My favourite though is the Sidewinder Monk from Dragon #331
It's choice of bonus feats are:
Level 1: Persuasive or Stealthy
Level 2: Improved Feint or Mobility. It does get +1 Bluff as well though.

And people say that the core Monk is bad.

Lol, that does set a new standard for bad ACF.

I was adding UMD so you could heal the animal companion, something other classes that have animal companion are able to do. Otherwise you would tend to avoid using animal companion in combat, which is reducing the benefit of the class feature substantially.

*best Vulcan impression* Upon closer inspection, nedz seems to have been engaging in some kind of "joking." A druid companion. Most humorous. My apologies if I missed the point of your comment.

[toapat]

Still pretty silly, since you can get Weapon Supremacy and such very early on.

JaronK

even better, you get Weapon Supremacy with a weapon you are not proficient with at lvl 1

[Lans]

Martial Monk does by RAW grant any Fighter bonus feat without prerequisites (which is clearly not intended, but it is RAW), but it doesn't give you any epic feats since those aren't Fighter bonus feats. Epic Fighter Bonus Feats aren't actually the same thing as Fighter Bonus Feats.

Still pretty silly, since you can get Weapon Supremacy and such very early on.

JaronK

Whats more silly is that I don't think it pushes monk past the barbarian with ACFs.

[WhatBigTeeth]

And people say that the core Monk is bad.
On the other hand, core monk doesn't get the sneak attack+flurry+bite attack blender setup, which combos very nicely with craven, dark moon disciple and invisible fist.

[nedz]

On the other hand, core monk doesn't get the sneak attack+flurry+bite attack blender setup, which combos very nicely with craven, dark moon disciple and invisible fist.

True, but those feats are quite awful and the bite has a very limited number of uses per day. Stunning Fist is probably better, and this variant doesn't solve any of the Monk's issues.

[Phelix-Mu]

I had a thread a couple weeks ago about suggestions for 3 simple fixes to monk to make it better. Once we weed out snarky comments about swordsage, all of the suggestions were WAY more comprehensive than any ACF would be, even the comments that actually stuck to just three fixes. ACFs are generally tweaks to a class, and it's hard to hope that any one ACF would be a big enough improvement to monk to ameliorate the insane amount of smack that gets exchanged about monk in forum discussions.

Frankly, I like the class. Really wish they had tried a little bit harder with it's design (or put more thought into the 3.5 rehash; the class really didn't receive much attention at all).

[Snowbluff]

Wait. Guys, stop... staaahp.

This is a monk thread.

Phelix-Mu, did you know that Monkday was dying off? You brought this back. This was your fault! :smallfrown:

[JaronK]

Whats more silly is that I don't think it pushes monk past the barbarian with ACFs.

That's actually kind of possible. There's not many Fighter feats that change things too much. You can't just skip ahead through the TWF line to GTWF because that feat only grants the 3rd attack, not all three attacks. Whirlwind Attack is cute, but even though you save a lot of feats getting there it's still not actually worthwhile. Really, I'm not seeing anything impressive.

JaronK

[Eldariel]

That's actually kind of possible. There's not many Fighter feats that change things too much. You can't just skip ahead through the TWF line to GTWF because that feat only grants the 3rd attack, not all three attacks. Whirlwind Attack is cute, but even though you save a lot of feats getting there it's still not actually worthwhile. Really, I'm not seeing anything impressive.

JaronK

Well, I guess you can get stuff like Shock Trooper, Elusive Target and Weapon Supremacy, all of which are decent (though generally on non-Monks; Supremacy in particular is nice on anyone who just wants to take 10 on an attack).

[Lans]

That's actually kind of possible. There's not many Fighter feats that change things too much. You can't just skip ahead through the TWF line to GTWF because that feat only grants the 3rd attack, not all three attacks. Whirlwind Attack is cute, but even though you save a lot of feats getting there it's still not actually worthwhile. Really, I'm not seeing anything impressive.

JaronK
My feat set up was illegal as it can't take epic feats Snow Tiger Berserker will have to do. Its actually better in all cases for the monk

At level 2 a(prestat) +6/1 attack routine with the flurry, and invisible fist should be stronger than the barbarian over the course of an adventuring day.

At 20 it gets an attack routine of 22/17/17/12/7 and pounce is about on par with the stock barbarian, add in Invisible Fist and Darkmoon Disciple for durability, and a situational bonus to attacks.

[JaronK]

Well, I guess you can get stuff like Shock Trooper, Elusive Target and Weapon Supremacy, all of which are decent (though generally on non-Monks; Supremacy in particular is nice on anyone who just wants to take 10 on an attack).

Shock Trooper is useless without Power Attack and a decent BAB anyway though, so that doesn't really help much. All you do is get to avoid taking Improved Bull Rush. Elusive Target can be fun, of course.

JaronK

[toapat]

My feat set up was illegal as it can't take epic feats Snow Tiger Berserker will have to do. Its actually better in all cases for the monk

well, most epic feats are not worth taking if they dont relate to spellcasting, not because they suck, but because they have equivalent or better versions in non-epic, such as Improved Manyshot vs Greater Manyshot

[Eldariel]

Shock Trooper is useless without Power Attack and a decent BAB anyway though, so that doesn't really help much. All you do is get to avoid taking Improved Bull Rush. Elusive Target can be fun, of course.

JaronK

Though that actually makes me think, you can't use the good bits without Dodge anyways. Well, it does save you one feat but far less grandeur an achievement, granted.

[Lans]

So does any one disagree that those 3 monk ACFs are enough to knock it up a tier?

[toapat]

So does any one disagree that those 3 monk ACFs are enough to knock it up a tier?

Wild Monk is

Invisible Fist isnt up a full tier

Nor is Martial monk.

[nedz]

Wild Monk is

Invisible Fist isn't up a full tier

Nor is Martial monk.

this basically.

Invisible Fist would only be worth it if you were going to get Evasion twice and the other class didn't have a better ACF, though arguably Monk does have a better option than this in Spell Reflection anyway — which isn't worth a tier either.

[Mato]

Wild Monk? No.
Standard Monk + PAO, no not even, a Standard Monk + Warshaper and Standard Monk + Dragonborn (for flight) or anything with natural weapons, is superior. And they are still T5.

Invisible Fist? No.
T5 is skills+minor other, Invisibility is just an inferior version of HiPS with a decent Hide check.

Martial Monk? No.
Feats don't make a man, they add to him. The truly powerful Feats like Battle Jump, Hidden Talent, Mindsight, Dragonfire Inspiration, Imperious Command etc, are not Fighter Feats and some of which you can take at lv1 anyway. At best you're looking at Weapon Supremacy for 1/rnd +5 to an attack. Meh.

You need multiple AFCs and decent build selection if you want to be impressive. But that routes back to player skill and optimization kicks the entire tier system, as defined by JaronK, out the window.

[Lans]

Wild Monk is

Invisible Fist isnt up a full tier

Nor is Martial monk.
After rereading the thread I forgot to mention Darkmoon Disciple, full concealment in anything short of full daylight.

And when I said the those three monk acfs I meant martial monk, Darkmoon Disciple and Invisible Fist together should be about on par class wise as a barbarian, raise the monk a tier.

Edit- And really the only factor that might make me doubt that would be the monks MAD

[toapat]

Wild Monk? No.
Standard Monk + PAO, no not even, a Standard Monk + Warshaper and Standard Monk + Dragonborn (for flight) or anything with natural weapons, is superior. And they are still T5.

Wild Monk is up a tier, because you get Wild Shape (if with a slightly slower progression), which is well beyond the strength of pretty much any other class features you have as a monk. And you get Natural Attacks and Wisdom to AC. The class is definitely up 1 tier from normal monk.

As has been said, a Wizard who Shapechanges into a dragon is still better then a Fighter because the Dragon is a better frame while being nerfed by having the saves and BAB of a Wizard, that they still are more dangerous then the Fighter. The same goes for Monk, who has a better hit-die, inherent armor increase, Dragon like saves, and 3/4 BAB.


After rereading the thread I forgot to mention Darkmoon Disciple, full concealment in anything short of full daylight.

And when I said the those three monk acfs I meant martial monk, Darkmoon Disciple and Invisible Fist together should be about on par class wise as a barbarian, raise the monk a tier.

Edit- And really the only factor that might make me doubt that would be the monks MAD

none of those combined are still up 1 tier.

[Lans]

none of those combined are still up 1 tier.
Would you say that the standard barbarian does something better or should he be knocked down a tier? With the pounce and whirling frenzy variants being up a tier?

[nedz]

Whilst its a shame that they felt the need to tone down the wild-shape it does give them a variety of movement options (including flight), implicit stat boosts, implicit feats and implicit stealth.

Obviously they toned the wild-shape down because the Monk's other class features are just so OP against Druid casting etc.

[Psyren]

I agree that Wild Shape boosts monk a tier. And when you factor in wild shape related feats, items and PrCs it may even be 2.

[Eldariel]

I agree that Wild Shape boosts monk a tier. And when you factor in wild shape related feats, items and PrCs it may even be 2.

Well, if Assume Supernatural Ability or equivalent is available, yeah, it's prolly T2. Otherwise I'd say low Tier 3; not as good as Wildshape Ranger but still good enough that post-5 he has an answer to most questions simply thanks to the infinite versatility of Wildshape. So same tier but lower ranking.

Of course, 1-5 is as bad as any Monk's (even worse due to losing the prerequisite-free bonus feats) and he's kinda hurting for Wildshape uses without Extra Wildshape at 6, but he gets better. Of course, there's also always Monk->Master of Many Forms.


Getting native Wis to AC is pretty nice, as is getting native Unarmed Strikes in Wildshape. In spite of being limited to medium forms, combat-wise a Wild Monk is actually pretty well off overall, and doesn't have the inherent MAD issues a normal Monk does (though he'll be awfully useless with bad physicals pre-6).

[toapat]

Would you say that the standard barbarian does something better or should he be knocked down a tier? With the pounce and whirling frenzy variants being up a tier?

The standard Barbarian does pretty much everything better then monk that is not "Surviving a blaster Wizard as their tower comes down around them".

your multi-ACF monk doesnt actually increase in tier either. you trade the monk's 1 trick for an entirely different trick that is only slightly better.

Edit: Also, Monks cant actually exceed High T4 in terms of power. None of their ACFs increase their versatility, actually tending to hurt what little they have.

Oh, another notable Monk ACF/Varient/Sub is Chaos Monk, but that is technically not up any tiers as the monk doesnt gain anything from it without multiclassing and prestieging.

[Lans]

The standard Barbarian does pretty much everything better then monk that is not "Surviving a blaster Wizard as their tower comes down around them".

your multi-ACF monk doesnt actually increase in tier either. you trade the monk's 1 trick for an entirely different trick that is only slightly better.


My monk can turn invisible, then peek around corners, hits about well as, or better than a barbarian does, is more durable against being attacked. He can also pounce.

[Psyren]

Well, if Assume Supernatural Ability or equivalent is available, yeah, it's prolly T2.

I worded that poorly; what I meant was "Wild shape boosts monk at least a tier (to T4), and with the right feats and items boosts it 2 tiers (to T3.)"

Though if ASA, MT or similar are on the table, the right form could indeed potentially get to limited game-breaking ability.

[animewatcha]

Within the wild monk's wildshape capability, is there any form that grants spellcasting?

Like say.... ( while totally disregarding types, etc. just for example's sake )

Wildshape into a Solar and proceed to cast like one?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nah, I don't think there are any animals that get so much as a supernatural ability. There's the occasional vermin (Knell Beetle?) that do, but not pure animal types, I don't think.

[toapat]

My monk can turn invisible, then peek around corners, hits about well as, or better than a barbarian does, is more durable against being attacked. He can also pounce.

the problem with the argument about invisibility is that by the time your one trick comes online, its already at the end of its life. The Barbarian's One trick however only stops being going when the DM actively denies it.

Oh, and by the point you have your Trick my wild monk has already been kicking back being a dire bear for a few levels.

[Eldariel]

Within the wild monk's wildshape capability, is there any form that grants spellcasting?

Like say.... ( while totally disregarding types, etc. just for example's sake )

Wildshape into a Solar and proceed to cast like one?

Not natively but said Monk qualifies for Wildshape feats like Dragon Wildshape, Aberrant Wildshape and Frozen Wildshape which offer some more fantastic forms. Also, Assume Supernatural Ability as was touched upon earlier.

[Mato]

Wild Monk is up a tier, because you get Wild Shape (if with a slightly slower progression), which is well beyond the strength of pretty much any other class features you have as a monk. And you get Natural Attacks and Wisdom to AC. The class is definitely up 1 tier from normal monk.And PAO is a quick example. Because honestly it would be too tiresome to list the number of ways to gain Natural Weapon(s). Which is ironic. After someone smarter than you brings up Wild Feats, you suddenly want to validate that the access to something is so great it improves a Tier, while arguing you cannot have access to Good & Services in the PHB.

Interesting perception and one I really don't care to argue because fundamentally we'll never be discussing the same thing to begin with. Not that we are now, because I still can't find this Wild Monk with Wisdom to AC and I've got Dragon 324 in front of me. Unless you count wearing a Monk's Belt :smallconfused:

[toapat]

Interesting perception and one I really don't care to argue because fundamentally we'll never be discussing the same thing to begin with. Not that we are now, because I still can't find this Wild Monk with Wisdom to AC and I've got Dragon 324 in front of me. Unless you count wearing a Monk's Belt :smallconfused:

Look at monk in the PHB, their Wis to AC is not part of the special abilities column at all, its a separate column in the table.

Having a Class feature counts if a Commoner can not easily replicate it. Commoners cant replicate PaO without hiring a 15th level character for 1200gp. A commoner however can craft adamantine or Obdurium picks and axes to bypass obstructions.

also, even before wild feats Wild Monk is still better then core monk because core monk is either too little too late, MAD, or contradictory class features.

[Lans]

the problem with the argument about invisibility is that by the time your one trick comes online, its already at the end of its life. The Barbarian's One trick however only stops being going when the DM actively denies it.

Oh, and by the point you have your Trick my wild monk has already been kicking back being a dire bear for a few levels.

He gets it at 2nd level, before see invisibility comes online.

What tricks does the barbarian have that the monk does not have? He can make 1 attack for 2d6+3 for 1 encounter, then 2 encounters at 4, versus the monks 2 attacks at 2d6+4 all day all day, before adding in strength where the monk takes the lead. The monk is overall more accurate with an attack routine of 1/6 and the opponent taking a penalty to AC for a round vs +4 for the barbarian for 1 or 2 fights a day.

So the ACF monk is going to have better attack, more movement, better defenses, better saves compared to the barbarian.

[Mato]

fyi, the Barbarian is the weakest PC Class in the game.

Recall "Tiers" are extremely subjective to the person listing them. JaronK for instance considers less charging damage to be a tier improvement for the Fighter (dungeoncrasher). Take his listing of the Barbarian with the grain of salt you should be.

[TuggyNE]

fyi, the Barbarian is the weakest PC Class in the game.

... the what now?

Weaker than the CW Samurai? the Healer? the Soulknife? That's hard to buy.

[Mato]

Healer? No way.

But, CW Samurai vs Barbarian? Are we talking Barbarian as in the class that increases his Hit/Damage once per day per four levels (can't even say he rages all day till 12th level) and some Trap Sense because you know you're sending him down the hall first OR are we talking Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy blender that produces unreal and unneeded numbers while charging but can at least, for some reason, murder traps without using his face?

There is a distinct difference between the two. And if it's the former, yes I'd back the CW Samurai over it.