How to make a Mage-Killer?

[Nettlekid]

This probably won't be used in a game, or if so it'll be an NPC, not a player character. But it makes a fun thought exercise/build experiment. What is the very best magic-hating mage slayer you can think of? I'd like a character who thinks of magic as abhorrently evil for some reason or another, and who has devoted themselves to the slaughter of those who wield it. Because of that, I don't want an answer of "the best way to beat a wizard is to be a stronger wizard" sort of thing. I'm talking about a probably melee character who can go toe to toe with a magic-user, and if they can't kill them (as would be the case for a Wizard who's hiding out on his own demiplane with an Astral Projection doing his dirtywork) then at least he can defeat them utterly.

I think the best way to take out a magic-user is antimagic, plain and simple. From a magical point of view there's not a whole lot that can penetrate an antimagic field, and even less that can function within one. So I think the best way to fight a magic-user is a continuous item of Antimagic field. Once that's there, you have to focus on the way to cover your bases with purely extraordinary abilities. What I thought would be neat is a Paladin with the Underdark Knight ACFs, which allow you to give up your special mount for Ex Earth Glide. Underground you can't be targeted by anything that needs line of effect, and you could just pop up and stick them in a bubble of antimagic. You could be a Raptoran or Dragonborn for Ex Flight.

What else would make a good mage-killer?

[TaiLiu]

There are a number of feats that can help with this concept.

Pierce Magical Protection, from Complete Arcane, allows you to ignore any magical bonuses to Armour Class. Bypass those pesky Mage Armours and Shields!

Pierce Magical Concealment, from Compete Arcane, allows you ignore magical miss chances; Mirror Image and Displacement simply don't work against you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spontaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells go right through an AMF as though it wasn't there, for example the Orb of [Energy] spells in SC. Then there's the Initiate of Mystra feat...

In any case, definitely get Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and take a Dire Eagle (RoS) at 7th level (it's still "level -3" for its benefits), and with its extra HD give it the Mage Slayer line of feats in CA. Use the Handle Animal skill to give it the Warbeast template (MM2), and if you don't have any levels in Ranger or Druid you can technically get a Magebred (ECS) version of a creature.

It's pretty hard to get Antimagic Field without spellcasting. Probably the best non-spellcaster way to get it is the Runescarred Berserker prestige class in UE, unless you can get a custom magic item or want to UMD it from a staff. One level of Spellthief allows you to use Wands and Staffs of any Wizard spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation. That includes a staff with AMF and even a Wand of Wraithstrike.

You'll want immunity to magical detection of some sort, so a Hat of Anonymity (MIC) made by a 20th level caster for a Nondetection DC of 35 would work, otherwise maybe get levels in Occult Slayer (CW) or better yet Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm). Take the feat Darkstalker (LoM) and get nonmagical Hide in Plain Sight, easily obtained via the Dark Creature template (ToM) or possibly Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue), Ranger, Scout, etc. as long as it's a (Ex) version as (Su) abilities don't work in AMF. You want immunity to scry-and-die and you don't want them to escape before you can get your AMF on them. Even then, they can still Invoke Magic (LoM) + Dimension Door and then teleport to safety.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately the 3.5 ruleset forces such a character to rely on several things he has no control over, the most important of these being sheer luck. He also has to rely on the caster making a mistake and catching the caster by suprise.

If he catches a caster that's made a judgement error by suprise and gets lucky, then he can win. Otherwise no non-caster can go toe-to-toe with a full caster, period.

For the most recent (not to mention extremely cheesy) example of this, take a look at the thread "The exfighter" on the second page of the 3.5 subforum.

That said, the important thing is to build the character such that he has ways of shutting down the typical wizard defenses while maximizing his own defenses against the typical wizard offenses. Something to pierce illusions, a device that can reliably produce dimensional anchor, some means of either flying or negating flight (either magical or tactical) comprise the basics of the former while high saving throws (will in particular), high touch ac, a means of piercing illusions, something that produces a freedom of movement effect, and a means of flight comprise the latter.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It's pretty hard to get Antimagic Field without spellcasting. Probably the best non-spellcaster way to get it is the Runescarred Berserker prestige class in UE, unless you can get a custom magic item or want to UMD it from a staff. One level of Spellthief allows you to use Wands and Staffs of any Wizard spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation. That includes a staff with AMF and even a Wand of Wraithstrike.

Custom item? Use an Antimagic torc (Und) for a 1/day use of it.

[Kazyan]

Multiple angles of attack, that's how.

Sunder their component pouch, be a Whisper Gnome for that Silence SLA, Grapple them, get an antimagic torc, get a Ring of Spell-Battle to turn their "you lose" spells back on them, sneak up on them...

"But what if the caster has <Eschew Materials/Silent Spell/Still Spell or FoM/Initiate of Mystra/Wings of Cover or another Ring/Mindsight>?"

But what if caster doesn't have Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell/FoM, Initiate of Mystra, Wings of Cover/Ring of Spell-Battle and Mindsight all at the same time? It's a simplification, as there are always multiple ways to get around something, but this is the general idea.

[Treblain]

Have a friendly Arcane Archer shoot the mage-killer(s) with an AMF-imbued arrow before they charge in.

[Azoth]

For the weapon a +1 Magebane (insert weapon) of Anchoring, Greater Illusion Theft, Greater Dispelling, Banishing, (whatever you have room left for) can go well into helping shut things down.

Maybe something like Raptoran rogue2/monk2/Ranger2/Fighter2/Barb1/Occult Stayer5/Witch Hunter5/XXX1.

Trade away Evasion for Spell Reflection since you get it twice.
FE: Arcanist
Whirling Frenzy
Pounce
(Fighter to pick up some feats since both PRCs have Pre reqs)
Permanent Mind Blank

Good BAB, Well rounded saves, Useful defensive abilities. Not great at its job, but atleast it is a starting point to build off of.

I will do better when I am not AFB.

[Flickerdart]

The most important thing you need to do is make sure you're the one setting the playing field. Scout out the mage's habits and typical prepared spells, get supernatural allies of your own to do a little mucking about, perhaps hold some of his loved ones hostage if you're into that. Misdirect him about your abilities as much as possible, strike when he's in the middle of something else and carry a weirdstone so that he may not escape via teleportation. If you have him within visual range and you have not already won, then you're pretty much toast. Defeating a competent spellcaster takes more than just class features, items, and feats.


Multiple angles of attack, that's how.

Sunder their component pouch, be a Whisper Gnome for that Silence SLA, Grapple them, get an antimagic torc, get a Ring of Spell-Battle to turn their "you lose" spells back on them, sneak up on them...

"But what if the caster has <Eschew Materials/Silent Spell/Still Spell or FoM/Initiate of Mystra/Wings of Cover or another Ring/Mindsight>?"

But what if caster doesn't have Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell/FoM, Initiate of Mystra, Wings of Cover/Ring of Spell-Battle and Mindsight all at the same time? It's a simplification, as there are always multiple ways to get around something, but this is the general idea.
This is not an effective way of thinking. It is very easy, especially at higher levels, to acquire some or all of these things, so a mage slayer must be prepared to mitigate them all. Otherwise you could just rationalize away all of the caster's defenses, go in swinging your sword and immediately die to one of a thousand things that you were banking on the caster not having.

[andromax]

I built a rowdy mage slayer, you can see him here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=196186).

I used the Quorbred template, 7 levels of warblade, 5 levels of Occult Slayer, and a lvl of Sword Sage.

He's on the lower end of the Tier 3 spectrum for his ECL, (some might think T4).


Part of his backstory is that he a 'hitman' of sorts, controlled by a group of wizards, to take out other wizards. He necessarily relies on the support of high level casters to carry out 'hits' on competent wizards.

[Story]

Don't forget the standard issue Tinfoil Hat. If you're relying on AMFs, you need a way to get around that. At high levels you also need to deal with contigency.

[Clericzilla]

Well if you allow Pathfinder... The Superstitious Rage Power + Witch Hunter + Spell Sunder + Strength Surge + Rage Cycling + Others .. Yeah can be quite the mage killer.

[Togo]

Don't forget the standard issue Tinfoil Hat. If you're relying on AMFs, you need a way to get around that.

Just make sure you have a weapon out. It starts out above the mage and falls over him, so just claim an AOO as it moves over the mage and knock it to one side.

[Flickerdart]

Just make sure you have a weapon out. It starts out above the mage and falls over him, so just claim an AOO as it moves over the mage and knock it to one side.
AoOs specifically represent a creature letting its guard down as it concentrates on something else. Objects aren't creatures and don't provoke attacks of opportunity when they move. Besides, the hat isn't even moving so much as resizing, and its shape would make knocking it over a matter of some heavy pushing and not a single blow of the sword. So your idea fails three times.

[Kazyan]

This is not an effective way of thinking. It is very easy, especially at higher levels, to acquire some or all of these things, so a mage slayer must be prepared to mitigate them all. Otherwise you could just rationalize away all of the caster's defenses, go in swinging your sword and immediately die to one of a thousand things that you were banking on the caster not having.

If you take that argument to its extreme, you get the ExFighter thread with serious complaints against Ex not having a degense against Mastery Of Elements'd CL 54 Holy Words and Transcend Mortality-using Symbionts. You're not banking on the caster not having 1000 things; you're banking on the caster having 999 things or less.

Obviously you can't just walk in with your stick, but you can't dismiss a whole cluster of angles of attack because they're counterable. That's why you use as many as you can. I've just gone through the basic motions. More angles of attack demand build details.

[Story]

If you take that argument to its extreme, you get the ExFighter thread with serious complaints against Ex not having a degense against Mastery Of Elements'd CL 54 Holy Words and Transcend Mortality-using Symbionts. You're not banking on the caster not having 1000 things; you're banking on the caster having 999 things or less.


That's because ExFighter is incredibly cheesy TO, so it's only reasonable to assume the opponents are as well. A more reasonable "mage killer" wouldn't have those problems.

[Kazyan]

That's because ExFighter is incredibly cheesy TO, so it's only reasonable to assume the opponents are as well. A more reasonable "mage killer" wouldn't have those problems.

Same principle. You can't be perfect in countering every single thing, when the perfect Wizard will always retreat to a more obsure or higher-optimization workaround.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I'd like a character who thinks of magic as abhorrently evil for some reason or another, and who has devoted themselves to the slaughter of those who wield it. Because of that, I don't want an answer of "the best way to beat a wizard is to be a stronger wizard" sort of thing.
What are your thoughts on developing an odd scent and a crystal fetish?

[Flickerdart]

Same principle. You can't be perfect in countering every single thing, when the perfect Wizard will always retreat to a more obsure or higher-optimization workaround.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I built a rowdy mage slayer, you can see him here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=196186).

I used the Quorbred template, 7 levels of warblade, 5 levels of Occult Slayer, and a lvl of Sword Sage.

He's on the lower end of the Tier 3 spectrum for his ECL, (some might think T4).


Part of his backstory is that he a 'hitman' of sorts, controlled by a group of wizards, to take out other wizards. He necessarily relies on the support of high level casters to carry out 'hits' on competent wizards.

Have you used him in a game? If so, how well did he perform?

I can't help noticing a few things that are concerning. His touch AC is dangerously low, rays and touch spells are coming through with little trouble. He has no way to prevent dimensional travel, which means teleportation is an issue and he has no means of flight.

Any mage that these gaps don't cover is going to give this fellow a hard time.

[Kazyan]

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

Hmm...I think we have similar (not identical) ideas but different approaches, here. How would you set up a mage-slayer, beyond what you said in your first post?

[Flickerdart]

Hmm...I think we have similar (not identical) ideas but different approaches, here. How would you set up a mage-slayer, beyond what you said in your first post?
Dragon with Sorcerer levels on top. Nothing stops an unruly wizard better than several tons of angry lizard. But then, I see wizard-slaying as a conflict between DM and PC rather than nebulous PvP-esque entities. A PC slayer would heavily depend on the game he exists in and can't be meaningfully statted up outside of a game beyond vague suggestions.

[Nettlekid]

Just to clarify, my starting idea is a Raptoran Paladin who wears a circlet of continuous Antimagic Field. With Ex Earth Glide, he dives into the ground, bursts up a ways away, and does a dive attack with a spear or something with typical Power Attack modifiers, then Flyby Attacks back into the ground, leaving him safe from retribution. I can't think of any way to target a creature surrounded by an AMF underground, so his main vulnerable spot is if the foe readies an action when he's in the air.


There are a number of feats that can help with this concept.

Pierce Magical Protection, from Complete Arcane, allows you to ignore any magical bonuses to Armour Class. Bypass those pesky Mage Armours and Shields!

Pierce Magical Concealment, from Compete Arcane, allows you ignore magical miss chances; Mirror Image and Displacement simply don't work against you.

Those are useful, but since I think the best way to shut down a caster is with Antimagic Field, those variables will be nullified anyway. At high levels, casters would prefer to stay away from melee and not need even a 50% miss chance, if they can avoid combat altogether. If I'm close enough for melee, I'd probably want AMF.


Spontaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells go right through an AMF as though it wasn't there, for example the Orb of [Energy] spells in SC. Then there's the Initiate of Mystra feat...

In any case, definitely get Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and take a Dire Eagle (RoS) at 7th level (it's still "level -3" for its benefits), and with its extra HD give it the Mage Slayer line of feats in CA. Use the Handle Animal skill to give it the Warbeast template (MM2), and if you don't have any levels in Ranger or Druid you can technically get a Magebred (ECS) version of a creature.

It's pretty hard to get Antimagic Field without spellcasting. Probably the best non-spellcaster way to get it is the Runescarred Berserker prestige class in UE, unless you can get a custom magic item or want to UMD it from a staff. One level of Spellthief allows you to use Wands and Staffs of any Wizard spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation. That includes a staff with AMF and even a Wand of Wraithstrike.

You'll want immunity to magical detection of some sort, so a Hat of Anonymity (MIC) made by a 20th level caster for a Nondetection DC of 35 would work, otherwise maybe get levels in Occult Slayer (CW) or better yet Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm). Take the feat Darkstalker (LoM) and get nonmagical Hide in Plain Sight, easily obtained via the Dark Creature template (ToM) or possibly Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue), Ranger, Scout, etc. as long as it's a (Ex) version as (Su) abilities don't work in AMF. You want immunity to scry-and-die and you don't want them to escape before you can get your AMF on them. Even then, they can still Invoke Magic (LoM) + Dimension Door and then teleport to safety.

Yeah, I think the continuous magic item of AMF is the way to go. Initiate of Mystra aside, the instantaneous Conjuration spells are the hardest to counter. The most popular ones are the Orb of X spells, like you said. If I had a few Spellblade Shuriken tied to strings tailing 10 feet behind me, out of the AMF, do you think that could catch the Orb spells? I'm still not protected from others, but that's a start.

Now, would Antimagic Field not protect against things like Scrying sensors? Or would one just not be able to enter the field, but it would be able to see into it? If the latter is the case, then the Occult Slayer's 4th and 5th level abilities are the best thing for it, I suppose. And I don't think there's too much I can do against an Invoke Magic user, except maybe ready attack when they cast a spell to try and disrupt it.


Unfortunately the 3.5 ruleset forces such a character to rely on several things he has no control over, the most important of these being sheer luck. He also has to rely on the caster making a mistake and catching the caster by suprise.

If he catches a caster that's made a judgement error by suprise and gets lucky, then he can win. Otherwise no non-caster can go toe-to-toe with a full caster, period.

For the most recent (not to mention extremely cheesy) example of this, take a look at the thread "The exfighter" on the second page of the 3.5 subforum.

That said, the important thing is to build the character such that he has ways of shutting down the typical wizard defenses while maximizing his own defenses against the typical wizard offenses. Something to pierce illusions, a device that can reliably produce dimensional anchor, some means of either flying or negating flight (either magical or tactical) comprise the basics of the former while high saving throws (will in particular), high touch ac, a means of piercing illusions, something that produces a freedom of movement effect, and a means of flight comprise the latter.

Hmm, that ExFighter is interesting. It's the sort of thing I want, but you're right that it is extremely cheesy. I'd want to be able to do similar things like that, without the Protean go-between.
Now, some of what you mentioned I think would be taken care of by the AMF. Need for high saving throws, for example, and need for Freedom of Movement in most cases. You're right about teleportation and illusions though, those are two things that it would be hard to counter, especially at a distance.


Custom item? Use an Antimagic torc (Und) for a 1/day use of it.

I think a continuously active item is better, especially if it can be turned on and off at will.


Have a friendly Arcane Archer shoot the mage-killer(s) with an AMF-imbued arrow before they charge in.

If this character despises magic, he won't be allies with an Arcane Archer.


For the weapon a +1 Magebane (insert weapon) of Anchoring, Greater Illusion Theft, Greater Dispelling, Banishing, (whatever you have room left for) can go well into helping shut things down.

Maybe something like Raptoran rogue2/monk2/Ranger2/Fighter2/Barb1/Occult Stayer5/Witch Hunter5/XXX1.

Trade away Evasion for Spell Reflection since you get it twice.
FE: Arcanist
Whirling Frenzy
Pounce
(Fighter to pick up some feats since both PRCs have Pre reqs)
Permanent Mind Blank

Good BAB, Well rounded saves, Useful defensive abilities. Not great at its job, but atleast it is a starting point to build off of.

I will do better when I am not AFB.

One thing that I find annoying about the weapon enchantments you listed is that, although they're useful, they're limited use/day. It means that although he could get one or two really good hits on the enemy, he's up a creek without a paddle after that. Also, if he's using these enchantments, then he's not in an AMF, and totally at the caster's mercy.


The most important thing you need to do is make sure you're the one setting the playing field. Scout out the mage's habits and typical prepared spells, get supernatural allies of your own to do a little mucking about, perhaps hold some of his loved ones hostage if you're into that. Misdirect him about your abilities as much as possible, strike when he's in the middle of something else and carry a weirdstone so that he may not escape via teleportation. If you have him within visual range and you have not already won, then you're pretty much toast. Defeating a competent spellcaster takes more than just class features, items, and feats.


That might work, but the character I want is one who would never wish to harm a nonevil non-caster, and wouldn't want to use dishonorable methods like hostages. But more importantly, I want him to be able to rise from a table and immediately start trying to kill a caster if he happens to see one. In such a case, he wouldn't have the chance to stake out and study.
What's a Weirdstone? I've never heard of it, but it sounds pretty awesome. Where's it from?


Don't forget the standard issue Tinfoil Hat. If you're relying on AMFs, you need a way to get around that. At high levels you also need to deal with contigency.

I think that in the case of the Tinfoil Hat, if I'm coming up from underground then it's not much of a concern. If anything, they've trapped themselves. And I've always been a little unsure about Contingency. If they have a Contingency set up for being in an AMF, wouldn't the AMF block the Contingency?


What are your thoughts on developing an odd scent and a crystal fetish?

.....I'm a little afraid, but this sounds like you have something interesting to share.

[Kelb_Panthera]

AMF has several issues for your mage-hunter though. Chief amongst them is that it turns off all of his other magical gear and leaves him incredibly vulnerable to a minionmaster type mage. A Dread Necro's hordes of the shambling dead will tear him apart.

On the uses per day complaint; this guy is already tempting fate just by targetting some of the most dangerous folk around. Pushing his luck that hard several times in a day is going to lead to an early grave.

Attacking anything on-sight is just poor strategic savvy. It would be a bad way to handle his hatred no matter what it was for.

The tinfoil hat trick doesn't rely on contingency. The spell simply isn't a part of it. The hat is a large lead cone under the permanent effect of shrink item. When the AMF suppressess shrink item's effect on the "hat" it resumes its natural, big metal cone size and shape. As for it being activated when you come up under the wizard; there are two concerns. The first is that it's not necessarily a given that the wizard is on the ground. When the hat turns back to lead it'll fall on you both if you're directly beneath him and snatch him away from your attacking range if you come from any other angle. The second is that if/once he is on the ground under the cone, there's not really enough room under there for you both. You'll be squeezed into the same space and your raptoran won't be able to use any weapon that isn't a light or natural weapon unless he ducks back into the ground. Ducking back into the ground breaks LoE between your AMF item and the wizard releasing him and his hat from the AMF and allowing him to escape.

[Nettlekid]

AMF has several issues for your mage-hunter though. Chief amongst them is that it turns off all of his other magical gear and leaves him incredibly vulnerable to a minionmaster type mage. A Dread Necro's hordes of the shambling dead will tear him apart.

On the uses per day complaint; this guy is already tempting fate just by targetting some of the most dangerous folk around. Pushing his luck that hard several times in a day is going to lead to an early grave.

Attacking anything on-sight is just poor strategic savvy. It would be a bad way to handle his hatred no matter what it was for.

The tinfoil hat trick doesn't rely on contingency. The spell simply isn't a part of it. The hat is a large lead cone under the permanent effect of shrink item. When the AMF suppressess shrink item's effect on the "hat" it resumes its natural, big metal cone size and shape. As for it being activated when you come up under the wizard; there are two concerns. The first is that it's not necessarily a given that the wizard is on the ground. When the hat turns back to lead it'll fall on you both if you're directly beneath him and snatch him away from your attacking range if you come from any other angle. The second is that if/once he is on the ground under the cone, there's not really enough room under there for you both. You'll be squeezed into the same space and your raptoran won't be able to use any weapon that isn't a light or natural weapon unless he ducks back into the ground. Ducking back into the ground breaks LoE between your AMF item and the wizard releasing him and his hat from the AMF and allowing him to escape.

In regard to the minion hordes, being able to hide underground helps on that front.
I know that attacking on sight is a bad strategy, but character-wise it's appropriate. Now, a wizard would be able to attack any fighter on sight and end up on top, easy. I want this to be the opposite to that.
I know the Shrink Item doesn't work on Contingency, this and that were different things. I was thinking that Contingent Teleport probably wouldn't work, in my opinion. As for what you've said, well...Hm. I guess if they're flying, you fly up underneath the wizard so it falls down around the two of you? Once inside the cone, either deal with it mano-e-mano and rely on your higher HP and Strength, or maybe hover half in-half out of the ground, such that your Antimagic Headband is still out of the ground and affecting the 10 ft radius hemispehre, but giving you enough space to fight? Or, alternatively, fly at the wizard from above and in the same charge attack that gets the hat in range of the AMF, sunder the hat so there's a hole which allows LoE of the AMF to the wizard?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yeah, I think the continuous magic item of AMF is the way to go. Initiate of Mystra aside, the instantaneous Conjuration spells are the hardest to counter. The most popular ones are the Orb of X spells, like you said. If I had a few Spellblade Shuriken tied to strings tailing 10 feet behind me, out of the AMF, do you think that could catch the Orb spells? I'm still not protected from others, but that's a start.

Now, would Antimagic Field not protect against things like Scrying sensors? Or would one just not be able to enter the field, but it would be able to see into it? If the latter is the case, then the Occult Slayer's 4th and 5th level abilities are the best thing for it, I suppose. And I don't think there's too much I can do against an Invoke Magic user, except maybe ready attack when they cast a spell to try and disrupt it.

That's why I was recommending stealth, if you can get the jump on them and get them in the AMF before they act, they won't be able to cast at all. If you do can a continuous AMF item, put one on your Wild Cohort, and consider making it some sort of grappler. That's also where Mage Slayer comes in, if they can't get away from the companion (Tanglefoot Bags and/or a mundane net will work if it doesn't grapple) they can't cast defensively.

Occult Slayer's Nondetection is (Su), so it won't work in a continuous AMF. I'm pretty sure scrying sensors can see into an AMF just like they can see into any other space, as it seems to indicate that they use mundane sight.

Consider putting your AMF on a magical net, which is activated whenever you throw it. That would also solve the tin foil hat trick, as you'd net him and then the metal dome would unshrink around and trap the AMF-netted Wizard.



AMF has several issues for your mage-hunter though. Chief amongst them is that it turns off all of his other magical gear and leaves him incredibly vulnerable to a minionmaster type mage. A Dread Necro's hordes of the shambling dead will tear him apart.

More like, two of those undead per caster level will have their (Extended) Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) suppressed and immediately turn on the caster.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Mindless undead won't care that the spell, or the DN's rebuke effect, are suppressed. They'll simply continue to follow that last order of "kill that bastard in the AMF."


........ wait a tick. Isn't the earthglide ability the paladin uses a SU ability? If it is, he can't use it in an AMF.

[Nettlekid]

Mindless undead won't care that the spell, or the DN's rebuke effect, are suppressed. They'll simply continue to follow that last order of "kill that bastard in the AMF."


........ wait a tick. Isn't the earthglide ability the paladin uses a SU ability? If it is, he can't use it in an AMF.

Nope, as I mentioned several times, the Earth Glide from the Underdark Knight ACF is Ex. That's why I think it makes a cool character idea. An ability that seems like a spell, but can be used in an area without magic, gives a battler an edge in a purely nonmagical combat.

And I don't think they'd continue to follow the order, I think they'd just kind of mill about and attack the creature closest to them.

[Arcanist]

FE: Arcanist

:smalleek: What did I do!?


If you take that argument to its extreme, you get the ExFighter thread with serious complaints against Ex not having a degense against Mastery Of Elements'd CL 54 Holy Words and Transcend Mortality-using Symbionts. You're not banking on the caster not having 1000 things; you're banking on the caster having 999 things or less.

I feel referenced. :smallsmile:

[Ranting Fool]

As the above useful ideas plus don't forget the wonderful joy of subterfuge! :smallbiggrin:

Wizards typically don't have heroically good sense motive, spot or wisdom scores and unless they are the loner I'm going to live in my tower of doom by myself types then that can be used to your advantage.

Since the OP refers to a NPC Mage-Killer there are lots of tactical advantages to be gained vs your "typical" Good / Neutral Murder-Hobo Spellcaster. Now this is by no means a sure thing but a few things could help out any would be Mage-Killer.
1:They tend to spend a lot of cash on personal items (Even crafting) requires interaction with shopkeepers and even though most of the time this is just hand waved away.
2: Having saved the world a few times some adventures like to bask in the adoration of the Common Man. Having a crowd of people wanting to shake your hand can lead to assassins getting a tad too close.
3:Murder-Hobo types have been known to go "Questing" from time to time. Hear about a story in the pub then wonder off to go kill what ever rich nasty critter happens to live in the Evil place of X, nice place for an ambush (Divination could really mess this up unless there is basis in reality)
4: Despite the huge love of all powerful Wizards solo-ing everything there is in fact sometimes where one might recruit some sort of scout/sneak/meat shield to help with some part of option 3. Being nice and close once Mr Wizard has already cast some of his more deadly spells/is about to rest can only help the odds.
5: This being my main point, in a fantasy role play world you want to remember that not everyone is an emotionless gladiator of death. People tend to have weaknesses be it kryptonite, caring about others (hostages), a fetish for collecting small dolls or even the bad habit of capturing people alive then setting up elaborate death scenarios which you then explain how they work and what your next move is/overall plan before wondering off:smallbiggrin::smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[WhatBigTeeth]

.....I'm a little afraid, but this sounds like you have something interesting to share.
If caster-killing is your thing and you don't want to deal with magic of your own, psionic kung fu is your best bet to be viable in games with any sort of optimization happening

Psionic fluff is more monk than wizard, but carries its own magic-caliber effects, so it works in the character concept and in practice

Take ranger 1/psion 5/anarchic initiate 4/slayer 10. It makes its own antimagic fields for its psicrystal to throw over enemies immediately before the slayer pounces and action economy abuses the amfed opponent into pieces, all while sitting on defenses like mind blank, metamorphosis, vigor tricks and immediate action denial moves

And as a secret bonus feature psionics builds give you constant excuses to drop references to those Scanners sequels that you wouldn't otherwise admit to having seen

[Lord_Gareth]

So...how are all these mage killers finding the wizards in the first place and preventing them from running away?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So...how are all these mage killers finding the wizards in the first place and preventing them from running away?

Mages that are active in the world leave a trail that can be followed via gather information and mundane tracking (they don't teleport every step of every place they go). The mages that just sit holed up in their towers can be hunted down after the more meddlesome ones are dealt with.

As for them running away, I favor a wand of dimensional anchor and some means of giving chase in-flight or attacking when flight is a non-option, e.g. indoors.

A mage slayer that tries to slay mages without using magic is a doomed mage slayer. AMF has to be produced by some sort of caster, even if it comes from an item that a caster made.

@the OP: is this mage-slayer only after arcanists or all spellcasters? In the former case, I highly recommend getting some divine casting ability in there somehow.

[Ranting Fool]

@the OP: is this mage-slayer only after arcanists or all spellcasters? In the former case, I highly recommend getting some divine casting ability in there somehow.

Last time I had a bunch of NPC's who hated mages I ended up making them squads of mundanes with divine backing. Church inquisitor / hit squads really. :smallbiggrin: while far from perfect they did form a nice challenge for the party.

The PC's I've had don't tend to live small (apart from the odd "Spy Master" type) as a lot of adventures enjoy fame as well as fortune :smallbiggrin:

[ZeroNumerous]

Mages that are active in the world leave a trail that can be followed via gather information and mundane tracking (they don't teleport every step of every place they go). The mages that just sit holed up in their towers can be hunted down after the more meddlesome ones are dealt with.

How many times after level 9 does your party not just Teleport to X location close to wherever they need to go? 'Cause I know walking/riding to places ends at 9th level for my gaming group. Teleport(psionic or magical) completely overrides walking/riding, and is frankly infinitely more efficient when you want to get somewhere. The sole exception being when you need to get some place that's close by, and teleporting would present the risk of being sent way off course.

Sure, you could gather info in a town or use mundane tracking in a town, but all you're gonna find out is "They teleported to X location Y days ago" or "they traveled to X location and then teleported away" respectively. By the time you find that out where they've likely teleported to, then get there without teleportation yourself, the target will have teleported elsewhere.


As for them running away, I favor a wand of dimensional anchor and some means of giving chase in-flight or attacking when flight is a non-option, e.g. indoors.

Good luck with that ranged touch attack for dimensional anchor. Miss chances are more than likely going to make it a wasted standard action. That said: Attacking in doors is just as detrimental as it is beneficial, as wall spells become infinitely more efficient when you can just seal someone off from a conflict entirely.

[Flickerdart]

So...how are all these mage killers finding the wizards in the first place and preventing them from running away?
It's pretty clear that the OP's strategy is just to wander around until he runs into some wizards, and then slay them. Which is to say, it's not much of a strategy at all, even if he spends his entire life outdoors or on the ground floor of buildings without basements (or else the Earth Glide is useless) and doesn't mind being ostracized for messing up with everyone's magic gewgaws every time he walks by them (or else he needs to spend an action activating it and wastes his surprise factor).

The Earth Glide thing is a bit old hat, but OP's implementation of it is a big no-no (leaving aside the bit where he suffocated in the ground unless he can get around breathing somehow - and Ex flight races all breathe, as far as I know). Hit the wizard and then fly-by into the ground? Your AMF just lost LoE and doesn't project. Wizard leaves. Unless you are able to kill or trap him on your first turn, all you've done is made someone angry. Someone with divination powers who now knows what you look like and what you do. Someone who can bind Earth Elementals to go after you, and whom you will never find because he might be on the other side of the world by now.

So tell me, OP. You flyby a wizard. He is not dead, and leaves. What is your next step, knowing that his wrath will probably be upon you soon?

[andromax]

Have you used him in a game? If so, how well did he perform?

I can't help noticing a few things that are concerning. His touch AC is dangerously low, rays and touch spells are coming through with little trouble. He has no way to prevent dimensional travel, which means teleportation is an issue and he has no means of flight.

Any mage that these gaps don't cover is going to give this fellow a hard time.

I built him as a backup character for a campaign we haven't touched in a year or so, he's been played but not much. His AC is weak but he reflects spells, and has some Warblade maneuvers that let him replace his touch AC with his attack roll. He's certainly not going to be wanting to 'tank' anything. He'll get a couple potions of fly if he needs them.

[Melcar]

The PrC Halruuan Mage Hound is quite cool. It has the whole mage-hunter theme and it seems to be very effective!

[molten_dragon]

This probably won't be used in a game, or if so it'll be an NPC, not a player character. But it makes a fun thought exercise/build experiment. What is the very best magic-hating mage slayer you can think of? I'd like a character who thinks of magic as abhorrently evil for some reason or another, and who has devoted themselves to the slaughter of those who wield it. Because of that, I don't want an answer of "the best way to beat a wizard is to be a stronger wizard" sort of thing. I'm talking about a probably melee character who can go toe to toe with a magic-user, and if they can't kill them (as would be the case for a Wizard who's hiding out on his own demiplane with an Astral Projection doing his dirtywork) then at least he can defeat them utterly.

I think the best way to take out a magic-user is antimagic, plain and simple. From a magical point of view there's not a whole lot that can penetrate an antimagic field, and even less that can function within one. So I think the best way to fight a magic-user is a continuous item of Antimagic field. Once that's there, you have to focus on the way to cover your bases with purely extraordinary abilities. What I thought would be neat is a Paladin with the Underdark Knight ACFs, which allow you to give up your special mount for Ex Earth Glide. Underground you can't be targeted by anything that needs line of effect, and you could just pop up and stick them in a bubble of antimagic. You could be a Raptoran or Dragonborn for Ex Flight.

What else would make a good mage-killer?

The pierce magical protection and pierce magical concealment feats already suggested are a good start.
Also get the Mage slayer feat which prevents a caster you threaten from casting defensively.
Make sure you have a high dex, are large, and have a spiked chain for 20 feet of reach. Then get combat reflexes, and the thicket of blades stance so five-foot steps provoke attacks of opportunity, and they can't use the withdraw action.

At that point if you can get close to the wizard, he's in some trouble. He can't cast on the defensive, and he can't really move away from you easily, so casting anything is going to be difficult.

Get greater dispelling on your weapon to help get rid of any magical protection he might have. Get binding to help prevent him from just teleporting away from you. Magebane and spellstrike will also help.

Also look into ways to pump your initiative modifier. Going first always helps.

A really well prepared wizard is still probably going to be able to get away from you and then kill you unless you get really lucky. But most wizards that show-up in actual games aren't the super-optimized, mega-paranoid, prepared-for-anything variety that are usually held up as examples in forum discussions.

[Story]

At that point if you can get close to the wizard, he's in some trouble. He can't cast on the defensive, and he can't really move away from you easily, so casting anything is going to be difficult.


Withdrawing and using magic items still work.

[Flickerdart]

At that point if you can get close to the wizard
You really should have thought about getting close to the wizard before basing your entire build on that assumption.

[molten_dragon]

Withdrawing and using magic items still work.

Thicket of blades specifically does not allow the withdraw action. Some magic items still provoke AoOs. Some don't, but if you can force the wizard to use nothing but his magic items to fight you, you've crippled him pretty badly I'd say.

[molten_dragon]

You really should have thought about getting close to the wizard before basing your entire build on that assumption.

Getting close to him shouldn't be all that difficult. Just make sure you have a way to fly and a decent move speed. A way to teleport or dimension door would be even better.

[Flickerdart]

Getting close to him shouldn't be all that difficult. Just make sure you have a way to fly and a decent move speed. A way to teleport or dimension door would be even better.
Please be specific about how you're getting these things. Different sources have different hilarious restrictions. Dimension door in general forces you to end your turn, teleportation costs a standard in most cases, and flight is something a spellcaster can get easier, cheaper, and better than you in all cases, and will see you coming a mile away if you try anything.

[molten_dragon]

Please be specific about how you're getting these things. Different sources have different hilarious restrictions. Dimension door in general forces you to end your turn, teleportation costs a standard in most cases, and flight is something a spellcaster can get easier, cheaper, and better than you in all cases, and will see you coming a mile away if you try anything.

There are dozens of methods to get flight. My personal choice would be a custom item of 1/day phantom steed at 14th caster level. If that's not available, just grab boots of flying or even a potion of flying would work. You could also go for an item that lets you alter self or polymorph into something that can fly. Since those are the 3 primary methods the wizard is probably using to fly, they should work equally well for you.

I had forgotten about the restriction on dimension door that you can't act until your next round. That can maybe be gotten around with white raven tactics. White raven tactics will let you teleport then attack again too.

Or you could use shadow jaunt or shadow blink for short range movement.

If we're talking high enough WBL you could also go for an item that lets you use quickened teleport.

[Flickerdart]

1/day Phantom Steed? That has a casting time of 10 minutes. Better hope that the wizard is going to wait while you fiddle with your item.

[molten_dragon]

1/day Phantom Steed? That has a casting time of 10 minutes. Better hope that the wizard is going to wait while you fiddle with your item.

But it has a duration of 14 hours, so I can just cast it when I get up in the morning and not need to worry about fiddling with it whenever I happen to run into the wizard.

[Arcanist]

But it has a duration of 14 hours, so I can just cast it when I get up in the morning and not need to worry about fiddling with it whenever I happen to run into the wizard.

And then Dispel Magic happens.

[molten_dragon]

And then Dispel Magic happens.

Yeah, that's a possibility. You could always go for higher caster level so it's more resistant to dispelling. And having a backup means to fly is always a good idea.

[Arcanist]

You could always go for higher caster level so it's more resistant to dispelling.


And having a backup means to fly is always a good idea.

And then Greater Dispel Magic.

EDIT: Regardless of this, your Magic Items are gone for 1d4 rounds. I honestly hope your Mage-Slayer invested in Tumble.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How many times after level 9 does your party not just Teleport to X location close to wherever they need to go? 'Cause I know walking/riding to places ends at 9th level for my gaming group. Teleport(psionic or magical) completely overrides walking/riding, and is frankly infinitely more efficient when you want to get somewhere. The sole exception being when you need to get some place that's close by, and teleporting would present the risk of being sent way off course. To move between distant locations, of course teleportation is the standard means of travel for mages. I'm talking about the fact that while they're in the dungeon or town or where ever their adventure takes them, they're moving about on foot or, at most, flying. Moving about in a town or dungeon takes time and that time is used by a mage-hunter to try and track him down. It's liable to take quite some time if the wizard he's hunting is particularly efficient in all his dealings but sooner or later he'll linger in one place long enough for the hunter to catch up.


Sure, you could gather info in a town or use mundane tracking in a town, but all you're gonna find out is "They teleported to X location Y days ago" or "they traveled to X location and then teleported away" respectively. By the time you find that out where they've likely teleported to, then get there without teleportation yourself, the target will have teleported elsewhere. That's exactly the kind of information trail I'm talking about, and you're right about the notion that the hunter will often reach that location only to find out the mage has already moved on but everyone needs downtime now and again. Until the mage becomes aware that he's being hunted the hunter is as likely as not to make progress toward catching up during the mage's down time. The hunter can take his own down-time between mages.




Good luck with that ranged touch attack for dimensional anchor. Miss chances are more than likely going to make it a wasted standard action. That said: Attacking in doors is just as detrimental as it is beneficial, as wall spells become infinitely more efficient when you can just seal someone off from a conflict entirely.

Miss chances are why it's important to have ways to pierce illusions, since they're the primary source of such. The only other major source of miss chances are darkness effects and blink both of which are a hindrance to both sides. Greater blink is virtually the only one that makes a hard-counter to this tactic. Edit: and come to think of it, I believe greater blink requires the caster to be aware of the incoming attack to guarantee that it misses.

A hunter that's got any real chance at being successful will also endeavor to deduce where the mage is headed from where he is now, allowing the possibility of setting up an area of dimension lock as an ambush site. In all cases, attacking a mage should be a suprise attack. Trying to hit a mage that knows you're coming is going to be extemely difficult and trying to hit one that knows -when- you're coming is suicide.

Walls can be bypassed. Corporeal walls, excepting force, can be smashed (mountain hammer or an admanatine weapon anyone?) and incoropreal walls are what the high saves are for. Of particular note is prismatic wall. Bypassing one of those requires hard counters to flesh to stone and planeshift, but its other effects can be mitigated to tolerable levels without being entirely bypassed.

Then of course there's simply teleporting past walls. You made it a non-option for the mage with dimensional anchor but that doesn't mean you have to give it up yourself; anklets of translocation, the blink shirt soulmeld from MoI, the shadow teleportation maneuvers from the shadow hand discipline in ToB, etc.

A mage-hunter can never make the battle a sure victory but by doing everything he can to minimize the mage's natural advantages he can bring it down to winnable.

A mage-hunter that doesn't want to use magic isn't going to do well in his chosen profession.

[molten_dragon]

And then Greater Dispel Magic.

The point about raising the caster level of item still stands. Even greater dispel magic only allows a +20 on the check. If you buy an item at CL 20, there's only a 50/50 chance it will be dispelled.


EDIT: Regardless of this, your Magic Items are gone for 1d4 rounds.


No they aren't, dispel magic doesn't work like that. If you want to suppress an item, you have to target that specific item, and that's all the spell does, it doesn't dispel any spells that are running.

[molten_dragon]

A mage-hunter can never make the battle a sure victory but by doing everything he can to minimize the mage's natural advantages he can bring it down to winnable.

This is the point I'm trying to make. The point here isn't to make a mage hunter that can kill any theoretical optimized mage that someone comes up with. That can't be done, and I think most people realize that. The point is to make a mage hunter who has a decent chance of winning a fight against an average PC or NPC mage in a real game, most of whom are FAR less optimized than theoretical builds that people talk about on forums. That's a task that's doable.

[Arcanist]

The point about raising the caster level of item still stands. Even greater dispel magic only allows a +20 on the check. If you buy an item at CL 20, there's only a 50/50 chance it will be dispelled.

Hey, by all means blow all your WBL on an item just for a 50/50 chance. Arcane Mastery does exist though (20+10) and getting a +2 bonus to dispel is child's play.


No they aren't, dispel magic doesn't work like that. If you want to suppress an item, you have to target that specific item, and that's all the spell does, it doesn't dispel any spells that are running.

My mistake.


This is the point I'm trying to make. The point here isn't to make a mage hunter that can kill any theoretical optimized mage that someone comes up with. That can't be done, and I think most people realize that. The point is to make a mage hunter who has a decent chance of winning a fight against an average PC or NPC mage in a real game, most of whom are FAR less optimized than theoretical builds that people talk about on forums. That's a task that's doable.

If this is really your goal then just play a Counterspell specializing caster. Fight fire with fire (or cold, who cares?).

[molten_dragon]

Hey, by all means blow all your WBL on an item just for a 50/50 chance. Arcane Mastery does exist though (20+10) and getting a +2 bonus to dispel is child's play.

Well, I have no idea what level we're talking about here. I'm assuming fairly high. A 1/day item of phantom steed at CL 20 is only 21600 gold. And that's without any cost reduction shenanigans. That's not all that much.

And yes, arcane mastery does exist, but most spellcasters probably aren't going to take it.

Hmm, I wonder if you could somehow get the phantom steed to wear a ring of counterspells with greater dispel magic in it.


If this is really your goal then just play a Counterspell specializing caster. Fight fire with fire (or cold, who cares?).

OP said he didn't want to fight mages with another mage. I'm trying to help him make what he did ask for.

[Arcanist]

Well, I have no idea what level we're talking about here. I'm assuming fairly high. A 1/day item of phantom steed at CL 20 is only 21600 gold. And that's without any cost reduction shenanigans. That's not all that much.

True. By all means then.


And yes, arcane mastery does exist, but most spellcasters probably aren't going to take it.

... I take it :smallfrown: I hate rolling dice, so sue me.


Hmm, I wonder if you could somehow get the phantom steed to wear a ring of counterspells with greater dispel magic in it.

It would be a horseshoe (or something). Now the better question is, what happens to the ring after the horse vanishes? Does it take it with it? :smalleek:

[molten_dragon]

... I take it :smallfrown: I hate rolling dice, so sue me.

I'm sure some do, but most people I've gamed with who have played spellcasters haven't taken it, and I don't know that I've ever seen an NPC that had it. So I'm using that as my basis for saying it isn't common.


It would be a horseshoe (or something). Now the better question is, what happens to the ring after the horse vanishes? Does it take it with it?

I doubt it. It's not being summoned, so it doesn't go anywhere when the duration ends, it just vanishes. So it would probably just fall to the ground. The whole thing would be a DM call anyway, since the spell doesn't say whether you can give the steed items or not.

[Arcanist]

I'm sure some do, but most people I've gamed with who have played spellcasters haven't taken it, and I don't know that I've ever seen an NPC that had it. So I'm using that as my basis for saying it isn't common.

Now that is very interesting. Most of the people I've gamed with have taken the feat if only for a more reliable method of overcoming scaling SR and Dispel checks. I shall use this for the basis for saying that it is common. I'm sure some don't, seeing as how most people like gaming knowing there is a chance of failure and try to not minimize there chance of defeat.

[molten_dragon]

Now that is very interesting. Most of the people I've gamed with have taken the feat if only for a more reliable method of overcoming scaling SR and Dispel checks. I shall use this for the basis for saying that it is common. I'm sure some don't, seeing as how most people like gaming knowing there is a chance of failure and try to not minimize there chance of defeat.

Guess it really just depends on what group you're playing with. Only OP will know if it's likely to be used in his game or not.

[Story]

Thicket of blades specifically does not allow the withdraw action. Some magic items still provoke AoOs. Some don't, but if you can force the wizard to use nothing but his magic items to fight you, you've crippled him pretty badly I'd say.

Sorry I missed that part of Thicket of Blades. Anyway, all you're doing is forcing the Wizard to use nothing but magic items for one action. Once he gets outside of your reach or otherwise removes the threat of AoOs, he can blast you away at will.


Since those are the 3 primary methods the wizard is probably using to fly, they should work equally well for you.

Except that a Wizard will always be better at it then you. They get high CLs automatically whereas you have to throw tons of money at the problem. They can recast and dispel more easily than you, and so on.


Well, I have no idea what level we're talking about here. I'm assuming fairly high.

The higher the level, the worse off you are. You really do not want to face a wizard with 9th level spells.

[JBento]

Ringing a phantom steed is going to be tricky: the corresponding slot on a horselike creature has an iffy existence (horseshoes would probably be a glove/gauntlet slot), and even if it exists you'd have to spend extra money as its hooves are insubstantial.

That is, of course, assuming the ring of counterspells even works when worn by a phantom steed: it all depends if the DM in question counts counterspelling (the ring doesn't take an action to use, but it still counts as a counterspelling action) as "fighting" (a phantom steed does not fight).

[Togo]

I've designed a few mage-killer builds. You'll never find a single build that can kill any mage no matter how they are designed, but that's pretty much the ideal to aim for. The point is to counter their tricks, and close in for the kill. So you need to have as many counters as possible, and as many mage killing tricks as possible, in a single build.

I'm happy to talk someone through a possible fight, but I'm a much better source for mage-killing tactics and counters than I am for mages themselves.

The other thing you need to decide is what you're actually trying to achieve. Driving a mage off is pretty easy. Hunting down a mage and killing him is far far more difficult. Protecting an area for a day again a mage assault is the standard I generally go for, but that may not be meaningful yardstick for your purposes.

[Toy Killer]

Depending on how you define 'Killing', a commoner could be an effective Mage-killer, just gather up all the musty old tomes you can find and put them in a big tall tower. hundreds apon thousands of books, try to find magic focused books, but it's not necessary. Cap it off by referring to it as "Arch-Mage Telenor's (Or some campaign specific name) Secondary Library". spread rumors about it in town.

Let the theoretical optimized wizards duel it out for control of possible spells hidden inside.

...

Profit.

[Noctani]

Personality: Blade (instead of killing vampires, you kill wizards)
Starting Alignment: Lawful Good
Final Alignment: Lawful, Evil
Key story points:
Parents were killed by mages
Grew up and landed a job as a gaurdsman
Joined a group specializing in slaying
Put the death of casters before saving innocent lives
Tempted by a fiend who shared a hate for arcane casters
Became wholly evil

LVL 1 Fighter Improved Initiative, Large and In Charge
LVL 2 Fighter Weapon Focus
LVL 3 Fighter
LVL 4 Fighter Iron Will
LVL 5 Fighter
LVL 6 Occult Slayer Magical Defense +1, Weapon bond, Mage Slayer
LVL 7 Occult Slayer Vicious strike, mind over magic 1/day
LVL 8 Corrupt Avenger Armor casting, detect sworn foe, sworn foe +2, taunt suppression
LVL 9 Corrupt Avenger Tainted strike 1/day, Survivor’s luck
LVL 10 Occult Slayer Auravision, magical defense +2
LVL 11 Corrupt Avenger Grim Resolve
LVL 12 Dark Warrior BMO MFury 3x per day, improved flight
LVL 13 Occult Slayer Mind over magic 2/day, nondetection cloak,
LVL 14 Dark Warrior Darkling Weapon
LVL 15 Dark Warrior BME Power Attack, Powerful lunge
LVL 16 Occult Slayer Blank thoughts, magic defense +3
LVL 17 Dark Warrior BMO +10ft speed
LVL 18 Dark Warrior True Believer, Scarred Flesh, extended reach
LVL 19 Dark Warrior BME, Combat Reflexes
LVL 20 Pious Templar Mettle

Useful Magic Items Created by his "whistler, partner"

A cleric who despises arcane magic.

Head: Circlet of Absorption (Ioun stone, 40 spell lvls), w/Pectoral Manueverability 50k
Cloak of the Resistance +5 resistance to saving throws +5 to Charisma 50k
Amulet Scarab of Protection & wisdom +4 wisdom (immune to death, energy drain, ability, lvl drain) 50k
Armor+3 mithril chain shirt w/ anti-magic field 1/per day, +3 luck saves 50k
Ring of scintillating scales 50k
Ring of the Evasion + 4 dexterity, +7 spell craft = 46k
Lovers Gloves +4 morale bonus to saves, haste, +6 ride = 49k
Bracers of the Giant +4 Con +4 STR, sign 48k
Belt of Endurance +4 Insight bonus to saves, see invisibility 48k
Boots of Teleportation 49k 3x perday
Weapon +1 Ghost Touch +1 Magebane +2 spell lance keyed to dimensional anchor, shield 48k
Weapon +1 dagger keyed to greater dispel + combat readiness + 3 initiative, enlarge person 48k
Bag of holding 5k
Ring of the Elements 47k (energy immunity) C/F/A/S
Dagger of form Gaseous form 10k 3x per day
Grafts: Fiendish wings 50k
Long Arm: 5k
Tentacle: 20k

All items are rough items and typically made at the lowest cost possible.

You are immune to divination, the spell sign will make sure you go first with a +20 initiative, and they don't benefit from sign since they cannot benefit from that type of divination. I have about 7 different variations of this build. Against melee types he keeps them at a distance with large and in charge.

I used it in a duel against another player, and am about to enter another duel. In this duel I couldn't go over 50k per item and I don't have the other builds on me.

[Arcanist]

Personality: Blade

Just gonna toss this out there, but how is this build Half-Wizard? :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

No they aren't, dispel magic doesn't work like that. If you want to suppress an item, you have to target that specific item, and that's all the spell does, it doesn't dispel any spells that are running.
Chained Greater Dispel Magic is what knocks out all your items.

[Togo]

Chained Greater Dispel Magic is what knocks out all your items.

Only if they are openly displayed and the caster thinks to target them. There's really no reason for many items to wear them anywhere where people can see and target them.

My builds feature characters wearing 40-50 peices of random costume jewelry. Unless they are reasonably close (within arcane sight range), they won't know which ones are magical and which aren't.

Also - surpressed for d4 rounds? Is that long enough to make this a useful tactic?

[Flickerdart]

Considering that the current plan is to fly up into the sky with a magic item? Yeah, I'd say it's plenty long enough.

[Noctani]

Just gonna toss this out there, but how is this build Half-Wizard? :smalltongue:

The original question was for a melee build, not caster.

Personality, has nothing to do with what he is.

[Arcanist]

The original question was for a melee build, not caster.

Personality, has nothing to do with what he is.

Now I know how Spider-Man feels... :smallannoyed:

[Noctani]

Only if they are openly displayed and the caster thinks to target them. There's really no reason for many items to wear them anywhere where people can see and target them.

My builds feature characters wearing 40-50 peices of random costume jewelry. Unless they are reasonably close (within arcane sight range), they won't know which ones are magical and which aren't.

Also - surpressed for d4 rounds? Is that long enough to make this a useful tactic?

wearing 40-50 peices is unecesssary.

How about just wearing a robe, gloves, and mask.

In addition, if a wizard is 120 ft away from you and can hit you with a chain dispel. Then you were not the hunter, and should probably run. You won't be staying to fight in any case.

[Story]

You are immune to divination, the spell sign will make sure you go first with a +20 initiative, and they don't benefit from sign since they cannot benefit from that type of divination.

Are you sure? Even an PC average wizard probably has at least +15 initiative at your level. And that's assuming you manage to surprise them after their Moment of Prescience is already used up. And they don't have a hummingbird familiar.

[Togo]

wearing 40-50 peices is unecesssary.

How about just wearing a robe, gloves, and mask.

In addition, if a wizard is 120 ft away from you and can hit you with a chain dispel. Then you were not the hunter, and should probably run. You won't be staying to fight in any case.

I take a weird approach to wizard hunting. Rather than treating it as a game of rocket tag, I build characters that can survive rockets. Wizards only have limited spells, and very few of them are at the higher levels they can cast. The more prepared they are, the fewer they have left. So generally I try and run them out of spells, by putting them in a situation where they have to expend resources every round to avoid being caught.

Stopping them running away is almost impossible. So generally the fight is to whichever one of us runs away first.

Wizards in theoretical conversations are very odd beasts - they have dozens of spells of the highest level they can cast, dozens of nested contingencies and precautions, always open with their most devastating attack, and never show up anywhere without an appointment and a week's planning in advance.

Meanwhile wizards in actual games tend to be limited to the spells they decided to learn that day, cast lower level spells first to see if the threat is really worth it, and often find themselves in situations they didn't expect to. Some of them even face more than one fight in a day!

[WhatBigTeeth]

Now I know how Spider-Man feels... :smallannoyed:
Does not compute.

Please explain the humor in thorough analytic fashion and resubmit.

:smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does not compute.

Please explain the humor in thorough analytic fashion and resubmit.

:smalltongue:

Translation: die, joke, die!

Seriously though, I don't get it either. :smallconfused:

[herrhauptmann]

And then Dispel Magic happens.

That's what spellblades are for.
Main weapon. Armor spikes. Spiked gauntlets.
That's three spellblades, give each one a different dispel magic variant. Animated spiked shield for a fourth. Off hand weapon for a fifth...
Say: Greater, Reaving, Slashing, and regular dispel magic. Maybe antimagic ray instead of regular dispel.
If he targets you with those, the spell is automatically caught by the spellblade, and on your turn, you can opt to redirect the spell at him, or let the energy drain away harmlessly.

[Noctani]

Are you sure? Even an PC average wizard probably has at least +15 initiative at your level. And that's assuming you manage to surprise them after their Moment of Prescience is already used up. And they don't have a hummingbird familiar.

There are three possible situations:
You are hunting the mage (Kill him)
The mage is hunting you (Run away)
You meet randomly (size up the situation and choose caution)

Even an average wizard won't necessarily prepare that spell even 1/3 of the time. I can think of alot more useful spells to prepare if I'm an adventuring member of a four man party. Having contingency, time stop, chain dispel, moment of prescience, and others. This is really cutting down on what the wizard can actually do. I rarely ever see mages choose all these spells when they are out randomly adventuring unless they know that these spells will be useful in at least half the situations they will meet.

Add a ring of moment of prescience, useable once a day thats an additional 43k and within a PC 760k by lvl 20 in addition to all the other items. Now you have a 43 initiative. Something very few average adventurers put their resources towards.

If a melee character is trying to hunt a mage who is fortified in a castle. Get yourself an army. Yes, a prepared mage is a monster to defeat. But if we were actually going by RAW a mage would have spent years simply studying from his spell book. Most DMs time skip, but honestly. Fighter characters could go out and continue adventuring with their clerics and druids becoming stronger and making more money. And from my experience, few DMs count the wealth of scrolls against a wizard. But they should, it's part of their overall wealth per RAW. Are wizards awesome? Yea, but it's the DMs who make them so easy to play.

[Story]

Scrolls don't count towards WBL because they're consumables. The treasure tables explicitly give more than WBL because they assume you'll spend a certain portion on consumables.



I take a weird approach to wizard hunting. Rather than treating it as a game of rocket tag, I build characters that can survive rockets. Wizards only have limited spells, and very few of them are at the higher levels they can cast. The more prepared they are, the fewer they have left. So generally I try and run them out of spells, by putting them in a situation where they have to expend resources every round to avoid being caught.

So they just teleport away and come back to kill you the next day. Sure if you take the average wizard by surprise they won't have much, but if they realize that you're a serious threat, they'll pull out all the stops.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Scrolls don't count towards WBL because they're consumables. The treasure tables explicitly give more than WBL because they assume you'll spend a certain portion on consumables.




So they just teleport away and come back to kill you the next day. Sure if you take the average wizard by surprise they won't have much, but if they realize that you're a serious threat, they'll pull out all the stops.

Extra treasure is handed out by the random treasure tables to account for consumable expenditures, but it's never explicitly stated that consumables don't count against WBL. It's certainly not an unreasonable take on the matter, though.

Even if the scrolls don't the spellbook certainly does. It's a highly valuable permanent item that the wizard needs to function. Not counting it against his WBL is tantamount to not counting the fighter's sword against his.

[Story]

First off, the Wizard gets a lot of spells for free as a class feature, so those don't count against WBL. Second, Spellbooks are cheap (12.5k for all the pages you'll ever need). Additional spells cost 50xlevel, except for 1st level spells, which are 25gp. Sure it counts towards WBL, but unless you're trying to tote around the entire Spell Compendium, it's not likely to even be the most expensive item you have.


How about this. I build a moderately optimized level 20 Wizard (i.e. no Incantrix) with say half the slots expended to simulate an adventuring day and see if you can stop me from escaping. I'm actually curious how it would go. I might even lose since I have no experience playing high level wizards.

[Kelb_Panthera]

First off, the Wizard gets a lot of spells for free as a class feature, so those don't count against WBL. Second, Spellbooks are cheap (12.5k for all the pages you'll ever need). Additional spells cost 50xlevel, except for 1st level spells, which are 25gp. Sure it counts towards WBL, but unless you're trying to tote around the entire Spell Compendium, it's not likely to even be the most expensive item you have.


How about this. I build a moderately optimized level 20 Wizard (i.e. no Incantrix) with say half the slots expended to simulate an adventuring day and see if you can stop me from escaping. I'm actually curious how it would go. I might even lose since I have no experience playing high level wizards.

If the wizard gets himself a BBB then that 12.5k definitely counts against his WBL. It also makes his spellbook subject to disjunction. It'd be extremely dirty pull on the DM's part to actually exploit that weakness but it's a possibility nonetheless. A rod of cancellation is only 11k. If he sticks to mundane books, then the price can get quite a bit higher.

I've already got something on my plate right now, but if you'll take a rain-check I'd be happy to put my money where my mouth is.

[nedz]

Discussions like this are very interesting but you are in a game of Rock-Scissors-Paper: where the Fighter is the Rock and the Wizard the paper.

You really should use a different kind of threat against a Wizard.

Various posters have mentioned stealth, which is one kind of scissors.

A divine caster should be able to counter most arcane threats, and can easily have a religious obligation to want to.

Or even something like a Diplomancer. Wizards are not renown for their interpersonal skills.
"Hello my friend, would you care for a drink ?" backed by a diplomacy roll should persuade the Wizard to quaff some poison or another.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Discussions like this are very interesting but you are in a game of Rock-Scissors-Paper: where the Fighter is the Rock and the Wizard the paper.

You really should use a different kind of threat against a Wizard.

Various posters have mentioned stealth, which is one kind of scissors.

A divine caster should be able to counter most arcane threats, and can easily have a religious obligation to want to.

Or even something like a Diplomancer. Wizards are not renown for their interpersonal skills.
"Hello my friend, would you care for a drink ?" backed by a diplomacy roll should persuade the Wizard to quaff some poison or another.

Rock can rip through paper if you chip some sharp edges into it and throw it hard enough.

The mage-hunting fighter archetype is one of the most challenging archetypes to build to but it's possible to do with moderate success.

[Noctani]

Scrolls don't count towards WBL because they're consumables. The treasure tables explicitly give more than WBL because they assume you'll spend a certain portion on consumables.




So they just teleport away and come back to kill you the next day. Sure if you take the average wizard by surprise they won't have much, but if they realize that you're a serious threat, they'll pull out all the stops.

That's not exactly true. Wizards has a chart of characters wealth assuming expendables. From memory I want to say its 886k at lvl 20 and they reduce it down to 760k for wealth by level. Hence if characters put more money into consumables it will actually take that away.

[nedz]

Rock can rip through paper if you chip some sharp edges into it and throw it hard enough.

The mage-hunting fighter archetype is one of the most challenging archetypes to build to but it's possible to do with moderate success.

Is there any way of quantifying the various different approaches, perhaps with a probability of success ?

[Flickerdart]

Probabilities are really hard to count because the wizard to be killed is more of a variable than the slayer. Ideally, a good slayer would study a wizard and shape his own build layout (through Reformation or straight up level drain cheese) into something that has the best hard counters to the wizard's situation and typical spells. Doing it this way reduces the complexity somewhat.

It is also possible to do the numbers for a slayer that only kills a particular kind of wizards (say, necromancers, or gishes) because it's easy to guess what the target will be doing.

A spellcaster simply has too many options to say with certainty which ones any given one will have available, so a general "guy who fights any and all wizards" build is not going to be easy to predict performance-wise (though it is almost certainly going to be poor).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Like I said in my previous responses to this thread; a general purpose mage-killer is going to have to amp up his defenses against the most common forms of magical attack, his counters for the most common forms of magical defense and evasion, and be a methodical bastard that uses the mages' own tricks against them. Combining these concrete mechanical considerations with the more intangible points of studying the enemy at hand; trying to catch him by suprise, preferably before he knows you're after him; and no small degree of luck will yield a decent degree of success.

The very worst that such a character can do, aside from dying in that initial encounter because of bad luck or bad info, is let the mage get away. This gives the mage the opportunity to start implementing counter-intelligence, his own inquiry into the enemy at hand, and a plan to hunt said enemy down and kill him before he has the opportunity to make another strike.

Mage-hunting is an even higher-risk proposition than adventuring in general and takes a sword-slinger of considerably sterner stuff than average to have his career end in horrible, bloody death after several successes.

[Story]

It also makes his spellbook subject to disjunction. It'd be extremely dirty pull on the DM's part to actually exploit that weakness but it's a possibility nonetheless. A rod of cancellation is only 11k. If he sticks to mundane books, then the price can get quite a bit higher.


All disjunction does is turn it into a nonmagical item. It's still a spellbook, you just can't scribe into it for free any more. And what kind of wizard doesn't get a blessed book as soon as they can afford one? Using only mundane spellbooks is silly.

[Arcanist]

All disjunction does is turn it into a nonmagical item. It's still a spellbook, you just can't scribe into it for free any more.

Hmmm! If that is the case then it might seem a little helpful to cast Disjunction on a full BBB. :smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

All disjunction does is turn it into a nonmagical item. It's still a spellbook, you just can't scribe into it for free any more. And what kind of wizard doesn't get a blessed book as soon as they can afford one? Using only mundane spellbooks is silly.
For the same reason that people prefer dead tree format to e-readers and tablets, maybe having a library of books just feels more satisfying to some wizards. It's not like they care about lugging it around, and it would make them harder to steal...

[Story]

You might get a few who hate blesseed books for whatever reason, but that is hardly going to be the typical wizard.

One other issue is the question of reputation. If we assume that a level 20 suddenly decides to go on a mage killing spree, then ok, but if you make a career out of it, people are going to notice, and wizards will start taking extra precautions against you. You won't have the element of surprise. Also, you're much less likely to live to level 20 in the first place.

[Philistine]

Really, the best way to make Mages vulnerable to your prospective Mage-Killer is to play a system other than D&D, and particularly D&D 3.X.

[Kelb_Panthera]

All disjunction does is turn it into a nonmagical item. It's still a spellbook, you just can't scribe into it for free any more. And what kind of wizard doesn't get a blessed book as soon as they can afford one? Using only mundane spellbooks is silly.
That conclusion is not at all clear in the RAW. If there's something about normal spellbooks that requires expensive special inks and you've been scribing into the BBB with normal ink, when the magic leaves the book what logic demands that the writing still has that special something that makes it a spellbook? The fact that it's still the same formulae? Since the magic had a part in the scribing, who's to say the writing is even still in the book. Nevermind that 1000 pages of modern print paper won't fit in a book of the dimensions described by the item's entry, much less ye olde vellum or parchment.

For a BBB to suddenly become a far more valuable item [a normal spellbook full of spells] than it was before it was disjoined makes no sense and most certainly isn't unquestionable RAW. Even if it doesn't get disjoined there's the not insubstantial issue of having all your spells in the same book. If it gets swiped or destroyed some other way, then what? You're out 12,500 gold worth of magic item and as many as 200 spells.

You might get a few who hate blesseed books for whatever reason, but that is hardly going to be the typical wizard.

One other issue is the question of reputation. If we assume that a level 20 suddenly decides to go on a mage killing spree, then ok, but if you make a career out of it, people are going to notice, and wizards will start taking extra precautions against you. You won't have the element of surprise. Also, you're much less likely to live to level 20 in the first place.

Reputation can work to the hunter's advantage as much as against him. Fear can lead people to do foolish things; like betray a higher level wizard to be spared from certain doom.

This is, of course, assuming that the hunter does nothing to quell any such reputation. When you hunt people that have ready access to serious information gathering ability (divinations) controlling the information that's available is a prime avenue of attack and defense.

Then of course there's frequency of attack determining just what kind of reputation turns up in the first place. If you're using the mundane tracking methods, instead of employing divine casters with divinations, then there can be quite a stretch of time between slayings.

When your reputation may boil down to something like "The crimson avenger is a hunter of those who practice the arcane that's been known to spend weeks or even months stalking his target and who always wears a mask when he strikes so that noone sees his face," you might get the more paranoid wizards panties in a bunch. When that's followed by "He's killed 6 wizards in the last 4 years alone." They start to think the odds of being a target aren't that substantial.

Then of course there's the matter of how any particular wizard heard about this fellow. If it's something like a tale traded in a tavern, then it may be written off as a ghost story concocted by bored apprentices by higher level mages.

No, having a fearsome reputation doesn't even begin to guarantee that every wizard in the campaign setting starts taking precautions against you, specifically, unless you're the only mage-hunter in the world and they have nothing else to worry about.

[Story]

In otherwords, the argument rests on the mage hunter being ineffective.

But even if they don't necessarily believe the stories or doubt that you're targeting them, it's still worthwhile to at least think about the tactics in the story and how they'd defend against them. And besides, high level wizards are paranoid pretty much by definition.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In otherwords, the argument rests on the mage hunter being ineffective. That depends on how you define effective. If killing a wizard every couple of months is ineffective, then I suppose so. Frankly, I'd say that being successful more than twice means that the mage-hunter spending his life becoming a mage-hunter has resulted in his one life ending two, or more, mage's lives. That's a net-gain for the Anti-mage Vs mage struggle. I'd call that a successful character, especially given the more general projected success rate for such an endeavor.

There's also the matter of disinformation making the mage-hunter appear either more or less effective than he actually is.


But even if they don't necessarily believe the stories or doubt that you're targeting them, it's still worthwhile to at least think about the tactics in the story and how they'd defend against them. And besides, high level wizards are paranoid pretty much by definition.

Which is why using only a few necessary elements repeatedly is key. If you do the same thing over and over again someone will see the pattern and use anticipation of that pattern to form a defense against it. This is countered by -not- establishing a pattern. Sneak up on the wizard while he's out on the town for one hit, then lay down an ambush in the market for the next, then hit the next one as he's coming out of the dungeon, etc. Alternatively use the establishment and breaking of patterns as another form of offense. Hit two or three in a row with ambushes in the market then wait for the next one in his room at the inn.

Just as there's no single formula for producing a wizard, there's no single formula for beating one in a fight. Trying to shoehorn every battle into the same mold is going to get a would be mage-hunter killed pretty quick. By shaping his strategy to the individual target he makes it so that the only way they can predict how he will attack is by figuring out how best to attack themselves.

You just leave the wizards that are too paranoid to come out of their tower in there to rot. If they're not influencing the world, they're not part of the problem and only need to be eliminated after the more active mages are dealt with.

[Togo]

Since we're talking about masked avengers, why bother killing the wizard? Just turn up in costume to thwart his evil plans. He teleports away when the battle looks like less than a sure thing, and then all the citizens cheer.

Of course that just makes the wizard vengeful and directed in his attempts to oppress the citizenry, but that's pretty standard for the genre.

[Juntao112]

You just leave the wizards that are too paranoid to come out of their tower in there to rot. If they're not influencing the world, they're not part of the problem and only need to be eliminated after the more active mages are dealt with.
What are reasonable precautions for an active wizard to have up? Would a way of guaranteeing getting the first action in combat qualify?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since we're talking about masked avengers, why bother killing the wizard? Just turn up in costume to thwart his evil plans. He teleports away when the battle looks like less than a sure thing, and then all the citizens cheer.

Of course that just makes the wizard vengeful and directed in his attempts to oppress the citizenry, but that's pretty standard for the genre.Generally speaking, such a character would be interested in lessening or weakening the influence of mages on the world so I don't see a problem with non-lethal methods. It's not really in the spirit of the "hunter" part of mage-hunter though. It's also a -lot- less permanent, especially given that mages have more ways to achieve temporal immortality than most anyone else. Preventing their direct influence creating an indirect influence would simply lead to trying to break that influence and becoming an oppressive dictator is a good way to make -more- enemies. Kinda comes off as making things worse to make things better when you think about it like that.


What are reasonable precautions for an active wizard to have up? Would a way of guaranteeing getting the first action in combat qualify?

Guaranteeing the first action in combat means finding a way to never be flat-footed so that celerity can be used at the start of combat, since you can't normally take an immediate action when you're flat-footed and those spells make no provision for this. This will require either multiclassing into something with uncanny dodge or getting one of a handful of relatively high-level divination effects. Foresight is the go-to for this in theoretical discussions but it's a 9th level spell, meaning that it won't be available at all until higher levels. The next-best thing is some form of contigency effect, either the spell or the crafted contingency of the feat both of which come online at level 11, but phrasing the contingency trigger properly is difficult at best. Guaranteeing the first action of the combat is something that low-to-mid level casters have more than a little trouble with and it probably shouldn't be taken as a given until the hunter reaches the upper end of mid-level.

Common defenses and evasions include miss-chances and misdirections generated by illusions, flight, and teleportation effects. BFC effects such as fog-cloud, wall of X, and black tentacles come into play once battle is joined. Retributive spells that harm those who strike at the caster aren't so uncommon. Minions in the form of enchanted thralls, controlled undead, and the occasional construct can also be obstacles to the would-be hunter. Summoners are a thing as well. Fortunately even dedicated summoners won't have minions until they've had their first turn until lesser planar binding comes online at 9th level.

It's simply not possible to hard-counter all of these. The key, then, is to get hard counters to the most troublesome of these effects. Methods for piercing illusions so that you can reliably target the mage, a means of producing at least dimensional anchor to prevent long-range teleportation and some means of teleporting yourself for short-range teleportation (at the earliest levels) and bypassing BFC effects, and some means of flight to both give chase and, again, avoid BFC effects.

Common offenses include energy attacks, debuffs, and minions. These are mitigated by high saves (particularly will Vs debuffs), high touch AC, and resistances to energy attacks and certain categories of the most deleterious of debuffing effects.

The occasional gish is also a thing and a very dangerous thing, at that. A well built gish or a wizard that favors polymorph effects as his go-to offense are nightmarish for a mage-hunter. Both can only be overcome by dispelling their buffs, which will be difficult to do with dispelling effects from items. Polymorphers at least can be severely hampered by a couple of nice spells in MoE that force them to either revert to their natural form or waste actions changing forms each round taking damage all the while.

[Story]

Foresight is the go-to for this in theoretical discussions but it's a 9th level spell, meaning that it won't be available at all until higher levels.

The last I checked, you wanted to do this at level 20.

[Flickerdart]

There's always dire tortoise form...:smallbiggrin:

[Story]

I didn't mention that because I figured the Wizard would want to be in normal form at least some of the time. Also, it's hard to persist Shapechange without cheese like Incantrix.

[Juntao112]

Question: Can't Feather Fall be cast when Flatfooted?

[Flickerdart]

Question: Can't Feather Fall be cast when Flatfooted?
Nothing in its entry suggests this, so if you're unexpectedly pushed off a cliff, down you go.

[Juntao112]

I seem to remember the 3.5e version in the PHB saying that you could "You can cast this spell with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall. Casting the spell is a immediate action, allowing you to cast this spell even when it isn’t your turn."

Of course, back then it hadn't been retconned into an immediate action.

[dantiesilva]

I have actually been trying to work out building a mage killer and have come to the conclusion that a dwarf is a good start because of the bonuses against spells. If you make the LE you can take 2 levels of Paladin of tryanny and 2 levels of hexblade for x2 cha bonus to saves. Add in ranger with the ACF of Acentric hunter and now you are already a decent warrior against spellcasters. By this level you can now go into Pious templar gaining mettle. Continue until you gain 2nd level divine spells and then take the 5 level of occult slayer.

The problem is that HoM and Battlesmith are both good follow ups, the first is more useful in the long run then the later. And with needing 2nd level divine spells it slows the build down alot. In gestalt it could easily be done, but without it...it becomes tricky.

Dwarf paragon and Stonelord are also good candidates. I hope this helps.

[Flickerdart]

You're not "a good warrior against spellcasters" merely because you've got CHA to saves twice, unless your CHA is stupendous for some other reason already. Melee is notoriously MAD, and it's likely that even double CHA is only adding +4 or so to saves, which isn't worth losing 4 class levels over. Saves do help, but at the levels where spellcasters really become a problem, it's not because of the spells they cast that offer saving throws.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nothing in its entry suggests this, so if you're unexpectedly pushed off a cliff, down you go.
This isn't necessarily so. It depends on whether you take this:

I seem to remember the 3.5e version in the PHB saying that you could "You can cast this spell with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall. Casting the spell is a immediate action, allowing you to cast this spell even when it isn’t your turn."

Of course, back then it hadn't been retconned into an immediate action.

to be a provision for using it regardless of being flat-footed. It's also important to take into account that the spell -was not- written with an immediate action, but a free action, in mind.

It's almost certainly intended and perhaps outright RAW.

[Flickerdart]

Intended, perhaps. But it seems to me more as a reference to the fact that you don't have to cast it before falling off, rather than an allowance that you can cast it while flat-footed. In other words, it only makes an exception for an unexpected fall, not an unexpected combat, so there's no reason to assume that it overrides the standard rules for actions while flat-footed.

[nedz]

Well the original text had it as "... a free action, like a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round. You may even cast this spell when it isn't your turn".

But that's academic since falling is a type of movement and you can only move on your turn. :smallsmile:

[herrhauptmann]

Add in ranger with the ACF of Acentric hunter and now you are already a decent warrior against spellcasters.
Accentric hunter?
Ascetic?
Eccentric?
Not seeing it in my crystal keep file, all I got is Solitary Hunter.

[nedz]

Arcane Hunter (CM, p 32): Favored Enemy (Arcanists) perhaps ? :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

FE: Arcanist doesn't seem like it's worth the levels to acquire, since the bonus it grants is so miserably small.

[herrhauptmann]

Arcane Hunter (CM, p 32): Favored Enemy (Arcanists) perhaps ? :smallsmile:

Ahh.
That's not really an ACF though, no more than new feats creating a fighter ACF.
If you're going ranger, stick with it a few more levels. The skill points are nice, and it has 2 good saves. And if you're aiming for alternate rangers, there's also the variant combat styles. They're from dragon mag 326. Any would probably be better than the TWF/Ranged combat in the PHB. My vote is Piscator, and Strong-arm. Bear-wrestling seems like a good idea, but it's countered by Freedom of Movement.

Are you doing this solo? If not, I'd recommend the distracting attack ranger from phb2.
Combining that with mystic ranger would work if both didn't sacrifice Animal Companion.

[nedz]

Ahh.
That's not really an ACF though, no more than new feats creating a fighter ACF.
If you're going ranger, stick with it a few more levels. The skill points are nice, and it has 2 good saves. And if you're aiming for alternate rangers, there's also the variant combat styles. They're from dragon mag 326. Any would probably be better than the TWF/Ranged combat in the PHB. My vote is Piscator, and Strong-arm. Bear-wrestling seems like a good idea, but it's countered by Freedom of Movement.

Are you doing this solo? If not, I'd recommend the distracting attack ranger from phb2.
Combining that with mystic ranger would work if both didn't sacrifice Animal Companion.

It's a Ranger ACF from Complete Mage. Page 32 — in the Alternate Class Features section. Arcanist is not a standard FE in the PH.

[Arcanist]

Favored Enemy (Arcanists) perhaps ? :smallsmile:


FE: Arcanist

... Are you guys plotting to kill me? :smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

... Are you guys plotting to kill me? :smallconfused:
Yes, because that joke has gotten so stale that there's no other choice.

[Kelb_Panthera]

... Are you guys plotting to kill me? :smallconfused:

.... are you aware that joke's getting a bit tired? :smallamused:

[Arcanist]

Yes, because that joke has gotten so stale that there's no other choice.


.... are you aware that joke's getting a bit tired? :smallamused:

LOL I love both of you :smallbiggrin: I vow to never make that joke again.

[nedz]

I note that it is common to assume the tinfoil hat.
So why doesn't our hero just have a pet fly in and knock the Wizard's hat off before turning off the power ?

[Juntao112]

How does the pet get close enough to the wizard to do so?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I note that it is common to assume the tinfoil hat.
So why doesn't our hero just have a pet fly in and knock the Wizard's hat off before turning off the power ?

Honestly, the only way I see AMF being a good way to shut off a caster is the arcane archer's imbued arrow feature. Forcing him to have an AMF pinned to him can really cramp a mage's style, but it's wholly inappropriate for a mage-hunter that hunts mages out of hatred.

If he's some sort of mage-guild enforcer that hunts down mages that are breaking the guilds rules or working against the guild in some way, on the other hand......

Anyway, using AMF as a combination offense and defense is almost certainly doomed to failure. It blocks alot of what a mage can throw at you but it blocks too much of what you can throw at him at the same time. You fight magic with magic not by trying to remove magic from the equation (since that's impossible).

[DangerDanger]

I honestly can't see killing a mage being this hard unless your DM is a complete ****ass.

It's like, "Oh! You want your character to kill mages? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. /Never/."

Just go runescarred berserker, halruaan-magehound, occult slayer, corrupt avenger, or witch hunter. You know, 5 basic solutions to something that isn't a problem that have been posted on this thread and have gone relatively ignored.

Magehound/Corrupt avenger makes 100% sense for the build concept because they smell the magic on people. They get crazy about it. They bring the crazy to the mage about it.

Runescarred berserker, while getting AMF, can also just un-make a caster with his rage-hurt. How hard is it for a barb to get 200 damage by level 20? Get into a casters face and abort them. Never. Even. Born.

Poster wants someone who hates magic and gets all sort's of bent out of shape about it, goes and bends magic users into pieces about it; not that hard.

[Flickerdart]

I honestly can't see killing a mage being this hard unless your DM is a complete ****ass.
This has nothing to do with a DM. What made you think that any DM would allow this...thing?

Edit: Confused this with Anthrowhale's mage killer thread. The point still stands - the thread is not about a wizard killer being played against the DM, since any DM can calibrate the mages the slayed fights to his optimization level.

[DangerDanger]

This has nothing to do with a DM. What made you think that any DM would allow this...thing?

I meant any of the 5 could be used, not all 5 (but like, whatever floats your boat, right?). Magehound, Avenger, or Witch Slayer more so because they sense things. They see things. They hunt things.

Poster wants a mundane mage killer. Get your flavor on. Find a mage, be Kanye, and slap their **** off. Oh, and don't forget the alizé. And bitches. (Non-magic bitches :smalltongue:)

[Juntao112]

I honestly can't see killing a mage being this hard unless your DM is a complete ****ass.

It's like, "Oh! You want your character to kill mages? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. /Never/."

Just go runescarred berserker, halruaan-magehound, occult slayer, corrupt avenger, or witch hunter. You know, 5 basic solutions to something that isn't a problem that have been posted on this thread and have gone relatively ignored.

Magehound/Corrupt avenger makes 100% sense for the build concept because they smell the magic on people. They get crazy about it. They bring the crazy to the mage about it.

Runescarred berserker, while getting AMF, can also just un-make a caster with his rage-hurt. How hard is it for a barb to get 200 damage by level 20? Get into a casters face and abort them. Never. Even. Born.

Poster wants someone who hates magic and gets all sort's of bent out of shape about it, goes and bends magic users into pieces about it; not that hard.

At level 20, Foresight make the mage immune to being flatfooted, which means he can use Celerity or trigger his Contingency when you start charging.

Just a thought.

[Story]

Do you want to make a build and try a battle? I'm not familiar with all of those Prcs, but I highly doubt they solve the problem of "beat a high level Wizard without being a Tier 1-2 yourself."

[Juntao112]

Heh, I'd be up for something, as always.

[Story]

What conditions do you want?

The scenario proposed earlier is that Mage Killer attempts to ambush Wizard while he's out adventuring, while Wizard tries to escape.

Also is anyone interested in running this? I doubt it will last more than a round or two, since if the Wizard can't escape by then he's probably dead.

[Juntao112]

What conditions do you want?

I'm most curious about what optimization level would be considered acceptable; if the mage slayer is using a dozen splatbooks and optimized to Hades and back, would it be unfair to powergame the wizard?

[DangerDanger]

At level 20, Foresight make the mage immune to being flatfooted, which means he can use Celerity or trigger his Contingency when you start charging.

Just a thought.
The level 20 is an example. At any level, look at a wizards hit dice, now look at a barbarians general hurt. Now, consider, they really want to hurt a wizard. DONE. 5 ways till sunday.

Foresight? Ok.

Find a mage, wait 10 minutes..

but they know you're coming and know you're packing hurt!!
"the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself"
General idea: STOP BEING MAGIC, IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU, DON'T LET IT FOUND YOU

[Story]

Well I'm planning to avoid Incantrix and Io7FV, but apart from that, I'll try to optimize the Wizard. I'm also going for a general purpose build with some countermeasures rather than specifically optimizing to face mage slayers.

I just looked up some of the classes. Halruaan-Magehound is out since in that case you're just fighting a full 1 caster with another full caster. Runescarred Berserker looks like it's basically just a Barbarian with an AMF. I'm not sure how you think that will help, but you can try it if you want.

[Flickerdart]

Why is "number of splatbooks" a metric of optimization?

[dantiesilva]

Catapult a bunch of monkeys?

Anyways yes dropping the level of ranger does open up alot, and droping two levels of either hexblade or paladin open up dwarf paragon which gives a +2 boost to saves +2Con, and +2 to search. Not a bad trade of, only bad thing is the bad saves really.

So far the build has worked well against mages, not so well against a man with SA and returning daggers.

[Story]

Well the fewer splats allowed, the worse off the Mage Killer will be relative to the Wizard, in general. But optimization is a lot more fun when more stuff is allowed.

[Flickerdart]

I propose a ban on core spells and feats for the wizard (he may still use the feats and spells for prerequisites but cannot actually use them). We've all seen the same old combos, and it would be more true to the mage slayer's performance in a real scenario to come in not knowing the precise mainstays of what the caster will be doing before he's even finalized his build.

[Story]

What about stuff like Domain Wizard that give you specific bonuses for specific spells. Can they be replaced with non core spells? Can I pick any Wizard spell of the appropriate level to replace them?

[Juntao112]

The level 20 is an example. At any level, look at a wizards hit dice, now look at a barbarians general hurt. Now, consider, they really want to hurt a wizard. DONE. 5 ways till sunday.

Foresight? Ok.

Find a mage, wait 10 minutes..

but they know you're coming and know you're packing hurt!!
"the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself"
General idea: STOP BEING MAGIC, IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU, DON'T LET IT FOUND YOU
Using all capitals and poor grammar does not make your argument more valid.

I am struggling to understand what you are actually talking about. Your seem to be under the impression that Foresight is a short duration spell, however, at caster level 20, it lasts 200 minutes, ie 3 hours and 20 minutes. Extended, that's 6 hours and 40 minutes.

You obviously read the text of the spell in order to quote it at me, so I am surprised you missed the part where Foresight grants immunity to being flatfooted. This is important because it enables you to take immediate actions when a maniac with a claymore jumps out of the bushes at you during the surprise round. Such as activating your Contingency. This enables you to avoid the hurt despite your low levels of hit dice.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd suggest putting this contest at no higher a level than 16.

Foresight lasts for almost 3 hours at minimum and an extend rod makes that all day for any practical purpose. Before it comes online, though, getting a suprise round against a wizard is just a matter of good planning.

It's still possible for a wizard to become nearly unsuprisable at that level but it's a helluva lot harder.

[Story]

Well once you settle on the level, I can start working on my build.

You also need to decide on the encounter scenario. How is this Mage Killer trying to approach the Wizard?

[Flickerdart]

What about stuff like Domain Wizard that give you specific bonuses for specific spells. Can they be replaced with non core spells? Can I pick any Wizard spell of the appropriate level to replace them?
Domain Wizard is fine, but you can't actually use the spells it grants you under these terms, except for qualifying for things. Frankly, you should be ashamed of wanting to use Domain Wizard in the first place. :smalltongue:

[DangerDanger]

Using all capitals and poor grammar does not make your argument more valid.

I am struggling to understand what you are actually talking about. Your seem to be under the impression that Foresight is a short duration spell, however, at caster level 20, it lasts 200 minutes, ie 3 hours and 20 minutes. Extended, that's 6 hours and 40 minutes.

You obviously read the text of the spell in order to quote it at me, so I am surprised you missed the part where Foresight grants immunity to being flatfooted. This is important because it enables you to take immediate actions when a maniac with a claymore jumps out of the bushes at you during the surprise round. Such as activating your Contingency. This enables you to avoid the hurt despite your low levels of hit dice.
Ok. Ok. I'm not a wizard. How do use 10th level spell slots? (Toally missed out on /level, 3. 20. it is.) And using bold and playing with grammar is fun, like DnD, like murdering mages.

My argument is not all wizards are going to have foresight rolling all day long, and once a slayer is confronted with that problem (the problem of all wizards using foresight always) I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for them to figure out which spell casters they come across have it rolling. Probably wouldn't even take a feat.

If a mage hunter found you, and they were half-way smart, they'd chill out until whatever allows them to know you're foresighting stops being a thing, then proceed to maniac claymore your face in less than a surprise round, then spit on your body. "Way to use magic, dude. I crazy people who use magic."

In addition, this is all upper level speculation. At lower ECL's mage slayer gets all the hurt while a magic users magic is that much more lame. Who's to say the mage slayer doesn't choose his own battles too?

[DangerDanger]

Best idea: tailor something like Leviathan Hunter's Trophy Feature (http://dndtools.eu/classes/leviathan-hunter/) to apply to magic users.

Example:
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc431/RyanOfSpades/babycakes_zps7a444b0c.jpg

[Juntao112]

Ok. Ok. I'm not a wizard. How do use 10th level spell slots? (Toally missed out on /level, 3. 20. it is.) And using bold and playing with grammar is fun, like DnD, like murdering mages.
Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Greater.


My argument is not all wizards are going to have foresight rolling all day long, and once a slayer is confronted with that problem (the problem of all wizards using foresight always) I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for them to figure out which spell casters they come across have it rolling. Probably wouldn't even take a feat.

If a mage hunter found you, and they were half-way smart, they'd chill out until whatever allows them to know you're foresighting stops being a thing, then proceed to maniac claymore your face in less than a surprise round, then spit on your body. "Way to use magic, dude. I crazy people who use magic."
So, knowing that the basic extended version of Foresight can last for hours, and that wizards can cast multiple spells per day, at what point during the day does the maniac with the claymore decide to attack the wizard?



In addition, this is all upper level speculation. At lower ECL's mage slayer gets all the hurt while a magic users magic is that much more lame. Who's to say the mage slayer doesn't choose his own battles too?
There's nothing wrong with purposefully stalking a target and attacking him at his weakest. Now, tell me how you are going to accomplish this? Will you be using skills, and if so, which ones?

[Story]

Can I propose a different domain? (Don't look if you're planning to battle me)

Blasting Domain:
0. Sonic Snap
1. Hail of Stone
2. Kelgore's Grave Mist
3. Shivering Touch
4. Orb of Force
5. Lord of the Sky
6. Scalding Mud
7. Avasculate
8. Blackfire
9. Maw of Chaos

These were the best noncore blasting spells I could come up with in a quick search.

The text does say you can get a custom domain with DM approval, and something like this seems pretty reasonable to me, especially since the spells are only useful for blasting.


I doubt it will actually come up during the battle, since I'll just be trying to escape, but I figured that I should have some offensive spells so I can plausibly be adventuring solo.

P.S. You probably want to make an exception for Anti Magic Field, since I'm guessing the Mage Killer will want to use it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok. Ok. I'm not a wizard. How do use 10th level spell slots? (Toally missed out on /level, 3. 20. it is.) And using bold and playing with grammar is fun, like DnD, like murdering mages.

My argument is not all wizards are going to have foresight rolling all day long, and once a slayer is confronted with that problem (the problem of all wizards using foresight always) I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for them to figure out which spell casters they come across have it rolling. Probably wouldn't even take a feat.

If a mage hunter found you, and they were half-way smart, they'd chill out until whatever allows them to know you're foresighting stops being a thing, then proceed to maniac claymore your face in less than a surprise round, then spit on your body. "Way to use magic, dude. I crazy people who use magic."

In addition, this is all upper level speculation. At lower ECL's mage slayer gets all the hurt while a magic users magic is that much more lame. Who's to say the mage slayer doesn't choose his own battles too?

I'm sorry dude, but once foresight becomes available, keeping it up and running all the time is trivial. A greater maximize rod and a pearl of power 9 has a 17th level caster (the earliest the spell is available) under its effect for 17(cl) X 2(castings) X 2(extend) X 10minutes. That comes out to 680 minutes or 11 hours and 20 minutes, for two items that comprise less than a third of his WBL and are useable with any other spell he may want to apply them to.

At 18 it becomes an even 12 hours and he can get 6 more by preparing it in both his 9th level slots.

He spends 9 of the remaining hours of the day in an extradimensional safehaven, at either level.

Then, of course, there's the fact that this caster has -no- CL boosting items, feats, or class features; all of which are extremely common and sought-after. +5 isn't unheard of for this level.

You're going to do a helluva lot of waiting and you've got to eat and sleep sometime too.

All this is completely ignoring that a metamagic focused caster -will- have ways to finagle even more use out of spells and persistant spell is a thing.

An ultimate magus with easy metamagic for persistant spell or arcane thesis for foresight isn't a complicated or cheesy build at all and he has foresight up, literally, 24 hours a day.

It's not a guarantee but getting foresight up for what is practically the entire adventuring day is likely to be common enough to make considering it necessary.

[DangerDanger]

Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Greater.
Alright. Every mage can cast foresight and has that item. Why not?


So, knowing that the basic extended version of Foresight can last for hours, and that wizards can cast multiple spells per day, at what point during the day does the maniac with the claymore decide to attack the wizard?
The right time, obviously. I mean, all wizards are now level 20 with rods of extend spell, greater that they never put down and spend their entire lives expecting someone to off them at all times always. Arn't there things that block divination, passive ways of preventing spells that don't require confrontation, and the like? Well, I guess the mage slayer now has all of those wonderful things :smallsmile:
Alternatively, they could just always want to murder a mage and never do, have them live a life of fear until they off themselves because they can't handle it.


There's nothing wrong with purposefully stalking a target and attacking him at his weakest. Now, tell me how you are going to accomplish this? Will you be using skills, and if so, which ones?
I'd imagine there are a wide variety of ways of accomplishing this. I wouldn't doubt there is a feat or hunter prc that does just this as well. Skill list skills could be Knowledge Arcane and/or Spellcraft. Having a detect magic or detect X ability would be helpful (corrupt avenger: detect sworn foe).

[Flickerdart]

Alright. Every mage can cast foresight and has that item. Why not?

We've been over this already - you can't hope that the enemy won't have a particular thing, especially if it's as easy to get as a spell and a trinket. Because if it turns out you're wrong, you die. No, not all mages will have extended foresight or even the regular version, but many will, and it is a naive mage killer whose strategy of dealing with these things is "hope he doesn't have it up". Foresight is a well-known and popular defense, not some obscure spell from a Dragon mag sidebar. If you're going to counter any defenses at all (instead of just hoping they're not there) then this one better be one of them.

It seems like your strategy in general amounts to more or less just wishful thinking, which isn't terribly useful.

[Juntao112]

The right time, obviously.
And how does he know what the right time is? Are you being purposefully obtuse here?


I mean, all wizards are now level 20 with rods of extend spell, greater that they never put down and spend their entire lives expecting someone to off them at all times always.
First, I would suggest you take a few deep breaths. The hyperbole you are employing is not winning you any points with me, and certainly not with an audience, which makes it a somewhat pointless endeavor.

Anyways, by the time you are level 20, you have likely angered some very influential enemies. Even slaying one devil, for instance, can result in a centuries long vendetta targeting you and your loved ones. An ounce of caution is a good policy in these sorts of situations.


Arn't there things that block divination, passive ways of preventing spells that don't require confrontation, and the like? Well, I guess the mage slayer now has all of those wonderful things :smallsmile:
What would they be? Please enlighten me; I am ignorant and wanting of your superior knowledge.


Alternatively, they could just always want to murder a mage and never do, have them live a life of fear until they off themselves because they can't handle it.
How does casting Foresight on one's self before going out equate to "living a life of fear until they off themselves"?


I'd imagine there are a wide variety of ways of accomplishing this. I wouldn't doubt there is a feat or hunter prc that does just this as well.
Then please, if there are so many, name some.


Skill list skills could be Knowledge Arcane and/or Spellcraft. Having a detect magic or detect X ability would be helpful (corrupt avenger: detect sworn foe).So you don't need Gather Information, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Move Silently, Hide, Spot, or Listen?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Alright. Every mage can cast foresight and has that item. Why not? Not every mage, but enough of them for it to be something to seriously consider.

Even simply having two 9th level spell-slots and knowing foresight means that you can have it up for more than 6 hours a day. Since 9 hours have to be spent in rest and study, there're only 9 hours unnaccounted for on -any- mage that knows the spell. That a cautious mage would spend those 9 hours somewhere that he holds an advantage while using any of the myriad other magicks he has to try and accomplish something doesn't require his personal presence; scrying on enemies, casting spells with lengthy casting times, using communicative spells to conduct business with associates, scribing new spells in his book, teaching an apprentice (now you get to fight two mages!) or any of a number of other things, isn't unreasonable.

As I said in my previous post, both the pearl of power and the greater extend rod are common enough items and even together comprise less than 1/3rd the WBL of a 17th level character. To count on the enemy not having either of these broadly useful and desireable items is foolhardy at best.

No, not all mages will have this particular spell or the items to have it up all day, but enough of them will that you're more likey than not to run into one if you make a career out of hunting mages.



The right time, obviously. I mean, all wizards are now level 20 with rods of extend spell, greater that they never put down and spend their entire lives expecting someone to off them at all times always. You say it like it's hyperbole, but high level mages participate in high level adventures and make high level enemies, many of whom have magic of their own. Being at least a little paranoid isn't just a good idea, it's a survival necessity.

That said, how do you determine when the right time to strike is? If you have no casting ability of your own then you have no way of discerning magic auras without an item and you can't identify foresight's effect with spellcraft unless you can see its aura.


Arn't there things that block divination, passive ways of preventing spells that don't require confrontation, and the like? Well, I guess the mage slayer now has all of those wonderful things :smallsmile:There are things that block certain types of divinations and things that block all divination directed at specific persons but foresight targets the caster, foiling the latter, and isn't of the type that's normally blocked by the former. Divination blocking can't save you from this one. Being passive doesn't harm the wizard so what does he care if you're even there now? Far more importantly, though, if you're not a caster yourself, you simply can't afford to block every avenue of offense a caster can bring to bear -and- tools to pierce his defenses as well.

Alternatively, they could just always want to murder a mage and never do, have them live a life of fear until they off themselves because they can't handle it. They've got plenty of specific people that they know of that want to kill them. Why should they care about someone who just hates mages in general rather than themselves in particular.



I'd imagine there are a wide variety of ways of accomplishing this. I wouldn't doubt there is a feat or hunter prc that does just this as well. Skill list skills could be Knowledge Arcane and/or Spellcraft. Having a detect magic or detect X ability would be helpful (corrupt avenger: detect sworn foe).

Those detection abilities have limited ranges and spellcraft can't be used to track someone down.

There -are- ways to stalk a wizard, just as there are ways to stalk any other prey, but you can't employ them if you don't know what they are. None of the mage-hunter classes I've ever seen has any class-feature dedicated to actually seeking out and finding the mages that the class is obstensibly designed to hunt. Proper application of trained skills isn't anything special but skills have sharp limits that can make finding anything difficult, much less something that has such erratic movement patterns as an adventuring wizard or that's as capable of exceeding those limits as a spellcaster that knows he's being hunted and takes steps to foil or, worse, misdirect a tail.

[DangerDanger]

I never said I had great DnD knowledge, nor did I try to imply so. Also, I don't want points with you. I don't want points with anyone. I saw this thread and I was like, "Hey, mage slaying sounds fun" with a poster all like "How do?" and a great deal of people ignoring the "How do" and going for the "Nope, you can't. It's not fun. Why? Because you can't. foresight"

I think it'd be fun to make and play a mage slayer. I don't think it'd be fun to play DnD with you.

[Juntao112]

I never said I had great DnD knowledge, nor did I try to imply so.
So... how do you know what you know with such great certainty? If all you knew of physics was what you learned from Star Trek, would you try and contradict Stephen Hawking when he tells you the Large Hadron Collider cannot make a black hole capable of destroying the Earth?


Also, I don't want points with you. I don't want points with anyone. I saw this thread and I was like, "Hey, mage slaying sounds fun" with a poster all like "How do?" and a great deal of people ignoring the "How do" and going for the "Nope, you can't. It's not fun. Why? Because you can't. foresight"
And yet you have failed to point out feasible ways to accomplish the task other than using handwaving arguments like "I'm sure it exists somewhere".


I think it'd be fun to make and play a mage slayer. I don't think it'd be fun to play DnD with you.
I thank you for the compliment.

[Flickerdart]

I never said I had great DnD knowledge, nor did I try to imply so. Also, I don't want points with you. I don't want points with anyone. I saw this thread and I was like, "Hey, mage slaying sounds fun" with a poster all like "How do?" and a great deal of people ignoring the "How do" and going for the "Nope, you can't. It's not fun. Why? Because you can't. foresight"

I think it'd be fun to make and play a mage slayer. I don't think it'd be fun to play DnD with you.
If you want to make a mage slayer, you have to accept that mages won't just roll over for your benefit. Because it's not fun for them to be killed, and they opt to do something about it rather than sit there and complain about sharp swords. Except the way 3.5 is set up, they actually have the tools necessary to accomplish their goal of keeping swords away, while the opposite is much more difficult.

If you want to kill mages, but aren't prepared to deal with their spells, then what you actually want to do is have the DM hand you commoners to kill.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I never said I had great DnD knowledge, nor did I try to imply so. Also, I don't want points with you. I don't want points with anyone. I saw this thread and I was like, "Hey, mage slaying sounds fun" with a poster all like "How do?" and a great deal of people ignoring the "How do" and going for the "Nope, you can't. It's not fun. Why? Because you can't. foresight"

I think it'd be fun to make and play a mage slayer. I don't think it'd be fun to play DnD with you.

Then you didn't read the thread carefully enough.

I and several others have been pointing out the most common wizardly offenses and defenses and, in doing so, have pointed would be mage-slayers toward avenues of thought that can lead to a modicum of success.

No one specific strategy can be suggested that will be universally successful because the common wizardly offenses and defenses are common, not universal. What works against one mage may be utterly useless against the next. Carefully picking your targets and preparing for each of them, individually, is a necessity of the mage-hunting business.

For example; throwing up an AMF on a readied action as a gish charges at you will lead to the two of you both being a non-magical fighter engaged in melee. You'll need a way to keep him from moving more than 10ft back and escaping the AMF followed by a more general escape, but if you can you're almost certainly the more fightery fighter.

Conversely, popping up an AMF when you're staring down a conjurer amounts to throwing away all of your defenses and most of your offense before trying to close on someone who can simply disappear to somewhere hundreds of feet away. At that point he's well outside of your charging range, but you're still in range for his long range attack spells.

For a third scenario, you target a necromancer that's been haunting a local graveyard. You throw up your AMF to protect yourself from his debuffing magic just before you round the corner into his workshop only to discover a hydra zombie with half a dozen heads staring you in the face. You're out your magical defenses in front of a bigger meaner meleer than you now.

This is why I don't suggest AMF as a universal option. It has it's place but it's just -not- universally applicable. The same goes for -any- form of offense or defense you might level against a mage just as it is does for fighting any other archetype.

[DangerDanger]

Hellbreaker (http://dndtools.eu/classes/hellbreaker/) has some pretty neat abilities in mage slaying. Like Telepathic Static blocking out divination stuff and Stowaway allowing you to jump a ride on teleport abilities.

I'm not certain if this Prc covers absolutely everything in the art of mage slaying, but it does have some pretty unique aspects to consider.

[Juntao112]

Hellbreaker (http://dndtools.eu/classes/hellbreaker/) has some pretty neat abilities in mage slaying. Like Telepathic Static blocking out divination stuff and Stowaway allowing you to jump a ride on teleport abilities.

I'm not certain if this Prc covers absolutely everything in the art of mage slaying, but it does have some pretty unique aspects to consider.

Excellent, excellent. Research, critical thinking, and analysis.

Here's the problem:


Telepathic Static (Su): Beginning at 1st level, you emit a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating the telepathy ability of all creatures within range. In addition, divination spells and spell-like abilities cast or used in the area are impeded. To use divination magic, a caster must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the level of the spell). If the check fails, the spell or spell-like ability does not function but is still lost as a prepared spell, spell slot, or daily use. If the check succeeds, the spell functions normally. You can suppress this ability for 1 round as a free action.

Now let's look at Foresight.


Foresight
Divination
Level: Drd 9, Knowledge 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: See text
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None or Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (harmless)
This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.

When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

It's not going to be cast on the Hellbreaker, so that clause does not apply. Nor does it give information about the Hellbreaker; it only gives warning of danger or harm to the subject of the spell.

Even if it did, the spell still grants immunity to being flat-footed as a result of casting it.

[Flickerdart]

By the time you can get into Hellbreaker, your CR-appropriate wizards will be swinging around 3rd level spells (so DC 23 to penetrate the static) and will be 6th level. 9 ranks, +5 Intelligence, +2 masterwork tool, +2 familiar aiding another, total is +18, success is guaranteed if wizard is taking 10 (if he's divining, he's probably not in combat) and 3/4ths likely if he rolls. You don't want to rely on that static too much. Anti-divination spells like misdirection and nondetection are a much more reliable way of getting the same thing going. They're both spells that a Spellthief is capable of learning (if you want access to the spell-stealing abilities - which, honestly, are much better at stealing at-will buffs from Warlocks and such than at actually ripping buffs off of enemy casters), and he can use the Trickster variant to get better casting for them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The trick to beating foresight is feinting (not the mechanic that involves the bluff skill).

Foresight isn't the problem in itself. The problem is that as long as the mage has foresight up he's not flat-footed and can use immediate action effects before you can act. You counter this by doing -something- to get him to use those actions to little or no effect. The common choice is celerity, used to enact whichever counter is deemed most appropriate to the situation. This is the tough one.

Preventing them from simply teleporting out is the most important thing but you can't just fire a dimensional anchor at them. They can just teleport, or even simply 5ft step, out of the way. What you have to do then, is lead them into an area where dimensional travel isn't possible (or target some eccentric that either doesn't know any teleportation effects or that's outright banned conjuration).

Forbiddance would be ideal. It has no visible effect and its aura can be hidden by a magic aura spell. Either lay the trap in the mage's expected path, set something he wants in such an area as bait, or at least make him think you've put something he wants in the area. With luck he won't detect the area and when he tries to 'port out to escape his spell will just fizzle. You'll still want to hit him with dimensional anchor though. Making a large area of forbiddance gets prohibitively expensive and he can likely still fly (it's almost unheard of for a mage to have neither flying nor teleportation).

If he instead throws up an abjuration to deflect, cancel, or absorb the ray, all the better! He hasn't revealed the forbiddance effect to himself yet and he may waste an action trying to teleport at an even more inopportune (for him) moment.

Once you've got him on teleportation lock-down escape is largely covered. You just have to be able to exceed him in whatever movement mode he has or use teleportation, yourself, once he's out of the forbiddance area. Now you have to deal with his offense. (If you couldn't pierce his defenses that dim. anchor would never have landed.)

[DangerDanger]

I never stated Hellbreaker beats foresight. I just remembered a prc that could hitch rides on teleports and looked it up. No research really involved. It just seemed pretty cool towards the concept. Another Prc to consider.


Question: Can you use immediate actions to counter immediate actions? How?

Idea: Eternal Blade Island of Time. Using spirits of the past to lay the hurt on the mages of today? ;P

[Flickerdart]

I never stated Hellbreaker beats foresight. I just remembered a prc that could hitch rides on teleports and looked it up. No research really involved. It just seemed pretty cool towards the concept. Another Prc to consider.


Question: Can you use immediate actions to counter immediate actions? How?

Idea: Eternal Blade Island of Time. Using spirits of the past to lay the hurt on the mages of today? ;P
An immediate action (as well as a readied action) takes place immediately before the action it's in reaction to. So if the enemy uses an immediate action (say, to cast Nerveskitter) and you have a useful immediate action (say, a Celerity) you could cast that in response and it would happen before the Nerveskitter. If you had a readied action, you could just shoot them in the face, and they would have to make a Concentration check or lose the spell if your shot hits them. However, it would be just like a sneaky wizard to fake you out with a useless swift-action spell so that you waste your readied action, and then blow you up or teleport away with his standard action.

You can't wait until the immediate action succeeds before countering it, though. This is why Spellcraft is so important - if you have it, you can know what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. If you don't, all you can do is guess.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An immediate action (as well as a readied action) takes place immediately before the action it's in reaction to. So if the enemy uses an immediate action (say, to cast Nerveskitter) and you have a useful immediate action (say, a Celerity) you could cast that in response and it would happen before the Nerveskitter. If you had a readied action, you could just shoot them in the face, and they would have to make a Concentration check or lose the spell if your shot hits them. However, it would be just like a sneaky wizard to fake you out with a useless swift-action spell so that you waste your readied action, and then blow you up or teleport away with his standard action.

You can't wait until the immediate action succeeds before countering it, though. This is why Spellcraft is so important - if you have it, you can know what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. If you don't, all you can do is guess.

This is definitely correct in the general initiative order, but the opening of combat creates an interesting problem.

You're flat-footed until you've taken your first action in the first round of combat. If foresight allows the wizard to take an immediate action before you've taken your first action of the combat, then aren't you technically flat-footed still and unable to respond with an immediate action of your own?

[Juntao112]

Thanks for the paradox. Just what I needed before bedtime.

[dantiesilva]

Well if you look at Occult slayer it solves a few of the problems.

Magical defense = Bonus to saves against the spells he throws at you, not relevent most of the time, but when you need it, you need it bad, (my point I have a level 1 illusininst with a 16 in intelligence with a DC17, and that is not even optimizing)

Weapon bond = An extra d6 to damage. Is it big, no, but add it with magebane on the weapon and that is +3d6 damage to anyone who casts spells or has SLA.

Mind over magic = Oh you target me with disintegrate do you...I send it back at you.

Vicious strike = double damage for a readied action, in most cases the wizard will go first anyways, why not gain the extra damage.

Auravision = now have a detect magic ability always on and active

Nondetection cloak = no divination to find you.

Blank thoughts = immune to enchantment school.

For 2 feats and 4 ranks in 2 useful skills when going to kill mages I would say its a no brainer to take this class. Sadly BAB 5 is a requirement. Make them a cleric 6 before hand and sure their casting progression stops, but it makes it so you can enter HoM now with ease. Giving you a lot more to work with with that weapon bond.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The last I checked, you wanted to do this at level 20.

Missed this a while ago. It was in response to a comment I made about foresight being a higher level spell not long after story proposed a challenge.

I asked for a rain-check on that challenge though, I'm taking part in one of the experimental adventures proposed in another thread and I'd like to give that my full attention for now.

The comment about Foresight's level was me continuing to give general advice on mage-hunting.

A mage-hunter -does- need to consider the implications and possible counters to foresight but he doesn't have to actually implement them until he starts to approach 17th level. It's relatively low-priority until then because anything that has it, not just mages, will murder you before you're at least at the upper end of mid-level.

[DangerDanger]

This is definitely correct in the general initiative order, but the opening of combat creates an interesting problem.

You're flat-footed until you've taken your first action in the first round of combat. If foresight allows the wizard to take an immediate action before you've taken your first action of the combat, then aren't you technically flat-footed still and unable to respond with an immediate action of your own?

Scout's (http://dndtools.eu/classes/scout/) uncanny dodge. Or should I say, foresight. Scouts also get Evasion/Spell Reflection. MAGES BE SLIPP'N!

This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm) is also an option. Really early level too!

Man, this whole time I was under the impression that only magic users can foresight. Looks like everybody foresights.



You can't wait until the immediate action succeeds before countering it, though. This is why Spellcraft is so important - if you have it, you can know what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. If you don't, all you can do is guess.
Then let's make sure our mage hunter has that skill. I feel it's safe to say enough things get it that I don't need to elaborate on how they'd get it.


Well if you look at Occult slayer it solves a few of the problems.
YYYYyyyyyyeeeeessssss
http://www.sexyfoodtherapy.com/sft/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/04_fistbump.jpg

Unfortunately, the Nondetection cloak's "caster level equals the character’s occult slayer level"

The rest of the class features will ruin a wizards day though!

[Flickerdart]

If you think +3d6 damage will ruin anyone's day, you're not going to make it far.


This is definitely correct in the general initiative order, but the opening of combat creates an interesting problem.

You're flat-footed until you've taken your first action in the first round of combat. If foresight allows the wizard to take an immediate action before you've taken your first action of the combat, then aren't you technically flat-footed still and unable to respond with an immediate action of your own?
You're flat-footed until you get a turn, not until you take an action.

[Story]

So who wants to do the challenge? What are the conditions? Anyone want to run it?

[DangerDanger]

If you think +3d6 damage will ruin anyone's day, you're not going to make it far.


You guys sure do cherry pick how you decide to respond to potentially useful ideas.

Mind over magic = Oh you target me with disintegrate do you...I send it back at you.

Vicious strike = double damage for a readied action, in most cases the wizard will go first anyways, why not gain the extra damage.

Auravision = now have a detect magic ability always on and active

Blank thoughts = immune to enchantment school.

But I guess we'll ignore all of that ruining a spellcasters day because they also get 3d6 to their attack, which isn't all that great I guess. w/e. :smalltongue:

Now retort with "vicious strike is pointless because the wizard goes first and double damage isn't all that great."
I dare ya! I double dog dare ya, motha ****a!
http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/24258000/ngbbs506e464f8bf31.jpg

Now tell me why my scout/psionic idea doesn't work. Or does it work? I honestly don't know.

[Story]

Vicious strike is pointless because the wizard goes first and double damage isn't all that great. I will admit that Spell Turning makes things a lot trickier though.

[Juntao112]

This doesn't really solve the problem of "Wizard goes first and leaves". Which is what most people would do when attacked. It does make you better at resisting magical attacks and assassination.


Now tell me why my scout/psionic idea doesn't work. Or does it work? I honestly don't know.
Isn't a psion a caster?

[Flickerdart]

Mind over magic = Oh you target me with disintegrate do you...I send it back at you.
While this is useful against spellcasters that truck in single-target attack spells, there are many that do not. Summoners, battlefield controllers, gishes, necromancers, enchanters (of the kind that run around with minions), AoE blasters, and many other kinds of mages don't care about spell turning.



Vicious strike = double damage for a readied action, in most cases the wizard will go first anyways, why not gain the extra damage.

Because when the wizard goes first, it doesn't really matter what you do.



Auravision = now have a detect magic ability always on and active

Big deal, so does everyone else. It's spectacularly useless for any combat purposes.



Blank thoughts = immune to enchantment school.
Most people ban enchantment precisely because it's really easy to beat. You know what else blocks a huge swathe of enchantments? The 1st level protection from alignment line of spells.

[Story]

At high levels Mindblank is more likely. And it even comes persisted for free.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You guys sure do cherry pick how you decide to respond to potentially useful ideas.

Mind over magic = Oh you target me with disintegrate do you...I send it back at you.

Vicious strike = double damage for a readied action, in most cases the wizard will go first anyways, why not gain the extra damage.

Auravision = now have a detect magic ability always on and active

Blank thoughts = immune to enchantment school.

But I guess we'll ignore all of that ruining a spellcasters day because they also get 3d6 to their attack, which isn't all that great I guess. w/e. :smalltongue:

Now retort with "vicious strike is pointless because the wizard goes first and double damage isn't all that great."
I dare ya! I double dog dare ya, motha ****a!
http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/24258000/ngbbs506e464f8bf31.jpg

Now tell me why my scout/psionic idea doesn't work. Or does it work? I honestly don't know.

These abilities are definitely helpful, but they're all defensive or reactive. The offensive features of the class aren't particularly impressive, so you'll have to look elsewhere for that. Btw, no mage with half-a-brain fires disintigrate at a bruiser. Big beefy guys with swords and armor tend to have high fort saves and 5d6 is a waste of a 6th level spell.

Scout's uncanny dodge is a nice catch. It definitely gets you back in the game on the immediate action exchange, but detect hostile intent has a limited range. If your initial attack is a ranged attack from hiding (and if it's not you lose points for poor strategy) then the mage is likely outside of that range.

Also, belittleing those you disagree with isn't going to make your point anymore accurate and it hurts your credibility. If you want to be taken seriously, you may want to cut back on the snark a notch or two.

@Flickerdart;


At the start of battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.

This says one thing for certain, if you're in a suprise round then you're flat-footed unless you can't be flat-footed. This works against a hunter that's trying to overcome the Foresight-Celerity combo.

Since the immediate action can take place before the hunter has taken any action then if it's in response to his first action of his first turn it, arguably, takes place before his turn begins. It's an unclear point in the rules.

[DangerDanger]

I wanted to see if anything else had scout's uncanny dodge, assuming one uncanny dodge definition can't replace others (can it?) and I found some nice things.

This (http://dndtools.eu/feats/fiendish-codex-ii-tyrants-of-the-nine-hells--67/brand-of-the-nine-hells--265/) feat is like it. You need to be branded by some demon for flavor, etc, but you could possibly tie in a back story like, sent to hell by mages, busted out ready to kill mages. Could tie in with hellbreaker :smallwink:

Fist of the Forest (http://dndtools.eu/classes/fist-of-the-forest/) also has the fun fun uncanny-not-flat-footed feature. Who doesn't love fist of the forest?

The List of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff) mentions other feats and classes that get uncanny dodge or like abilities. I'm sure a whole mess of them kill off flat-footedness.

And I'll bring down the snark. I didn't like how some people's suggestions were being relatively ignored. I mean, one guy even threw up an entire build that looked all sorts of good and I don't think anyone even mentioned it beyond downplaying 1 or 2 features. I concede my attempt to be satirical on that became a more flippant manner. Also, I'm new to the community. I don't know how you guys socialize on this board.

[Story]

I offered to test the build by making a Wizard for it to attack, but noone ever took me up on the offer.

[Hirax]

Not many people care to run the warrior vs. caster thing because it's already been done to death. Look around for the test of spite archives, it's proven pretty thoroughly that casters trump non-casters.

None of that matters versus NPC casters in a real game, of course, because no sane DM is never going to optimize a caster NPC to kill a non-caster PC.

[Suddo]

So I don't have enough time at the moment to comment with knowledge of the entire thread, but I'll add my opinion.
Personally my favorite form of flight is winged template from Savage species. And the best way I can think of fighting a wizard is to shoot an arcane archer arrow with Antimagic Field on it. If he teleports, due to how contingency would happen, then you should learn some means of following him. A longbow has a range of 100 ft which may allow you to catch the wizard from a distance outside of his mindsight. Having a hide in plain sight type of effect might be nice so that way the wizard actually has to roll his crap spot check to see you, or maybe some form of sleight of hand to shoot him without him seeing you. Though this forces you to be a spell caster as Antimagic Field is a decently high level spell.
Assuming custom items exist you may want to try and have as few magic items on you as possible because it might key the wizard off to know you are a threat as a unslotted item of detect magic is only 8k gold or so.
If you don't mind being bound to a god/s then there are some interesting options that open up. And I'm not just saying oh now you get to be a Cleric so its Tier 1 v Tier 1. 2 levels of Paladin and a level in Divine Crusader gives you better stats and Mettle (so your saves matter). Also it gives you some interesting fluff as you could be joining a god who hates wizards. I would try and get either LG or CG as you're auras won't give you away.

Let's see: I'm going to avoid using Tier 1 casting and if I use spellcasting it won't be Tier 1 level.
CG Pixie Paladin 2/ Fighter 2/ Barb 1/ Divine Crusader 1/ Occult Slayer 5/ Warblade 1/ Swordsage 1?
This gives you Spell Resist, good saves, Mettle, you can pick up either 2 levels of rogue (for evasion) or 2 levels of Divine Oracle (for evasion in armor, though you'd have to make prereqs). Becoming undead would be nice but I don't know how easy that would be as I forget the requirements for Necropolsis also you'd want to not be Evil. If you want an very interesting version you can go with Vow of Poverty build with Unarmed Swordsage. This makes it almost impossible for the Wizard to discern you from everyone one else you just look like a level 1 paladin pixie to him. Just remember Max Stealthy things when you can.

PS: You can up levels of the Divine Crusaders Spell casting until you get 3rd level at which point you get Discern Lies which allows for Divine Oracle.

[Story]

The only mechanical requirements for Necropolitan are 3k gold and 3k XP (if done at level 3). Also, there's no alignment restriction.

[Togo]

I offered to test the build by making a Wizard for it to attack, but noone ever took me up on the offer.

I have a fairly standard magekiller build I wanted to use for this sort of thing. I'm happy to face you. However, I personally consider the problem of catching a teleporting opponent almost insurmountable. If it's 'whoever drives the other off first, wins', then it becomes more interesting.

[DMVerdandi]

How come everyone is so... hellbent on not using a caster to do this?


I mean, One could hunt arcane casters and be a divine caster or psionicist, and that would be totally valid. It would probably work too. I could definitely see a witch-hunt going on between clerics of a church rejecting arcane casting, and they would be able to kick a relatively large amount of ass.

On the flip side, arcane casters hunting down divine and psions, or psions hunting down all magic users.


My thing is the feat mechanic, and magic weapons on a melee character is just sub-optimal. They won't go as far. They just won't.
One COULD use TOB and some psionics to have somewhat of an anti-magic character, but it wouldn't be anti-casting.

Artificers could work as well, I suppose.

My thing is this, DND isn't rock paper scissors, so a sneak or a fighter isn't going to beat a caster. No.
Not whining caster supremacy too hard, but... As a mechanical device it is simply superior to all other class features.


Divine Vs Arcane would be excellent for a campaign.

[Darius Kane]

How come everyone is so... hellbent on not using a caster to do this?
Because the OP asked for mundane?

[Lord_Gareth]

Because the OP asked for the impossible?

Altered for accuracy.

[thethird]

You could be a big rock.

and have ranks in profession (fall).

Falling rocks always kill spellcasters.

[Juntao112]

Ah, a suggestion for the Hulking Hurler.

[thethird]

That's an option too.

[The Shadowmind]

The best bet to kill a wizard is still another wizard, or maybe a Binder or psionics.

A Vecna-Blooded Wizard 1/Shadow Caster 3/Noctumancer 10/MT 6

Feats:Precious Apprentice(For the early Entry), Shadow Weave Magic, Insidious Magic, Dark Stalker,

Mysteries Paths
Cloak of Shadows
Ebon Whispers

Black Magic
Unbinding Shade

Pick Shadowscape, and then Eyes of the Night Sky or Dark Metamorphosis.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The emphasis on non-caster or partial caster mage-hunters is because it's a classic literary archetype. That said, the basic strategic outline I've been putting foward isn't exclusive to non-casters. Other spellcasters would have to overcome the same obstacles and defend against the same attacks, they just do it with their spells instead of reproducing magical effects from magic items.

There's also the extreme challenge to consider. Some of us like trying to figure out how to overcome overwhelming (though not quite impossible) odds.

[thethird]

A diplomancer?


Beat a diplomacy 150 skill check and well ask the wizard to die for you.

[Aegis013]

A diplomancer?


Beat a diplomacy 150 skill check and well ask the wizard to die for you.

Not if they have immunity to mind-affecting, as the fanatic state is treated as a mind-affecting enchantment for the purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill. Pg. 40 Epic Level Handbook.

[thethird]

Then turn them into helpful and ask them to take the risk of dropping their immunity to mind influencing effects.

Then fanatize them.

This also lowers the DC to two DC 50 checks.

a level 5 character could do that...

[Flickerdart]

Helpful doesn't mean "follows your orders". A Helpful creature wants to help you, but isn't required to - so you'd have to bluff the wizard into thinking that lowering the resistance actually helps you somehow before he would bother. If he even suspects that you intend to do him harm, then that attitude is going to drop quite quickly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then turn them into helpful and ask them to take the risk of dropping their immunity to mind influencing effects.

Then fanatize them.

This also lowers the DC to two DC 50 checks.

a level 5 character could do that...

So make a second diplomacy check even though the skill says retries are usually ineffective after making a completely unreasonable request of someone that's only helpful.

"Hey wizard, could you drop that mindblank of yours for a minute? I've really got something I want to say to you."

Yeah, that sounds completely reasonable and not at all suspicious.

"Um.... no. I have enemies of frightening power that I'd really rather not give an opportunity to scry me. Mindblank stays up, but I'd be happy to listen to what you have to say."

[thethird]

Most of the tricks that help maximize diplomacy also help to maximize bluff. So in most cases both of them are going to work on tandem.

For a numeric example... my google fu returned this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9217166&postcount=4).

Edit. I am proposing this out of a tangent. I am not intending to say that diplomacy is balanced in d&d and should be used regularly.

[DMVerdandi]

The emphasis on non-caster or partial caster mage-hunters is because it's a classic literary archetype. That said, the basic strategic outline I've been putting foward isn't exclusive to non-casters. Other spellcasters would have to overcome the same obstacles and defend against the same attacks, they just do it with their spells instead of reproducing magical effects from magic items.

There's also the extreme challenge to consider. Some of us like trying to figure out how to overcome overwhelming (though not quite impossible) odds.

Is it really a classic literary archetype? I mean... I can't really think of much that screams in that direction that isn't literary fiat anyway. And not for DND spellcasters. But I will take that, I suppose...

One thing I would consider is ultra-damage isn't really the best way to go.
That is a fool's way of thinking. A simple heat metal spell will be the death of that. And anti-magic fields are even less of an option, as casters don't have to even use effects outside of something like that.
Conjure something and use telekinesis and viola. Antimagic is something that the casting world would have been prepared for in the first place.


What do I think is the key?
Skills. Use a factotum. Possibly gain an item familiar, and have some decent skills for the purpose of tripping up the caster. Definitely max out skills like hide and move silently, Use magic/psionic device, autohypnosis, sense motive, spot, listen, perception, gather information, survival, heal, and spellcraft. Knowledge skills too.
Definitely pick up able learner, and some other things.

Have an artificer as a cohort from leadership, to make you non-magical,magical gear(Fluff as fringe science. Possibly allow for futuristic dmg weapons to be crafted).
Ultra-damage can come from stuff you have, but finding and killing the mage? All skill.

Make your character some mix between 007,Mario, Batman and finn the human, and go kick some ass.

THAT is how I would make an anti-mage.

[Flickerdart]

Skills.
The problem with skills is that they don't really do all that much. The DCs to do all the cool stuff (read: imitate low-level spells) are far too high.

[Darius Kane]

Altered for accuracy.
In your games, maybe.

[DMVerdandi]

Is it really a classic literary archetype? I mean... I can't really think of much that screams in that direction that isn't literary fiat anyway. And not for DND spellcasters. But I will take that, I suppose...

One thing I would consider is ultra-damage isn't really the best way to go.
That is a fool's way of thinking. A simple heat metal spell will be the death of that. And anti-magic fields are even less of an option, as casters don't have to even use effects outside of something like that.
Conjure something and use telekinesis and viola. Antimagic is something that the casting world would have been prepared for in the first place.


What do I think is the key?
Skills. Use a factotum. Possibly gain an item familiar, and have some decent skills for the purpose of tripping up the caster. Definitely max out skills like hide and move silently, Use magic/psionic device, autohypnosis, sense motive, spot, listen, perception, gather information, survival, heal, and spellcraft. Knowledge skills too.
Definitely pick up able learner, and some other things.

Have an artificer as a cohort from leadership, to make you non-magical,magical gear(Fluff as fringe science. Possibly allow for futuristic dmg weapons to be crafted).
Ultra-damage can come from stuff you have, but finding and killing the mage? All skill.

Make your character some mix between 007,Mario, Batman and finn the human, and go kick some ass.

THAT is how I would make an anti-mage.

Illumian(Naenkrau) Factotum 20
1.Able Learner
3.Item Familiar
6.Leadership
9.Might Makes right
12.Improved Cohort
15.Power attack
18.Rulership

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is it really a classic literary archetype? I mean... I can't really think of much that screams in that direction that isn't literary fiat anyway. And not for DND spellcasters. But I will take that, I suppose...

One thing I would consider is ultra-damage isn't really the best way to go.
That is a fool's way of thinking. A simple heat metal spell will be the death of that. And anti-magic fields are even less of an option, as casters don't have to even use effects outside of something like that.
Conjure something and use telekinesis and viola. Antimagic is something that the casting world would have been prepared for in the first place.


What do I think is the key?
Skills. Use a factotum. Possibly gain an item familiar, and have some decent skills for the purpose of tripping up the caster. Definitely max out skills like hide and move silently, Use magic/psionic device, autohypnosis, sense motive, spot, listen, perception, gather information, survival, heal, and spellcraft. Knowledge skills too.
Definitely pick up able learner, and some other things.

Have an artificer as a cohort from leadership, to make you non-magical,magical gear(Fluff as fringe science. Possibly allow for futuristic dmg weapons to be crafted).
Ultra-damage can come from stuff you have, but finding and killing the mage? All skill.

Make your character some mix between 007,Mario, Batman and finn the human, and go kick some ass.

THAT is how I would make an anti-mage.

As long as there have been mages in literature there've been sword-slingers that revile them and seek their destruction. So yes, it's a literary archetype. It's just an unfortunate consequence of the structure of the system that the only versions of that archetype with a shot at being successful have to turn the mages own tools against them.

Skills are an unquestionably important part of the equation but they can't do it alone. Bringing even just one or two skills up to the levels necessary to overcome magical effects is quite a drain on resources.

Spot and listen need to be able to consistently hit over 20 to have a reasonable chance of overcoming invisibility on a mage that makes no effort beyond being invisible to conceal himself. Just slowing down and rolling the hide and move silently checks will often get the DC over 30 and as high as 40. If you can't hit 40 you can't spot an invisible wizard that's not moving and since he's not moving you can't use listen to pinpoint him at all.

That's just for a decent shot. You've got to get the modifiers, as opposed to the end rolls, up near those numbers to get it close to guaranteed. Invisibility is something you have to deal with from 3rd level up.

Now compound this with the fact that illusions can misdirect your attention to non-targets and you should be able to see why skills alone can't cut it.

Ultra-damage doesn't even come into it. If you can hit them at all, mages are pretty squishy. Light armor and no armor are common amongst them, and HD are ofte d6's or d4's. A very mildly optimized fighter can do as much damage as a similar level wizard can take with his full attack.

[DMVerdandi]

The problem with skills is that they don't really do all that much. The DCs to do all the cool stuff (read: imitate low-level spells) are far too high.

They do plenty.
And yes, the DC's are high, but they are impossible for characters who aren't skill-monkeys. While it sucks having to use this exercise to basically create a spell-trigger user and his lackey, that is basically the only thing you can do in the light of this.

Using any of those wonky, "OCCULT-HUNTERS", is going to fail most of the time. Everyone automatically assumes that the spellcaster is going to be alone all the time. And even if he was, their design was classic 3.5 shenanigans. Hardly worth the levels it took to make it.

Leadership+Factotum= Guy who can get in, and get out with the tools needed to succeed. He always has the right tool for the job at that point.
I would put my little gnome artificer cohort in a portable hole, and have him hand me whichever tools I needed from the whole.

[Story]

I have a fairly standard magekiller build I wanted to use for this sort of thing. I'm happy to face you. However, I personally consider the problem of catching a teleporting opponent almost insurmountable. If it's 'whoever drives the other off first, wins', then it becomes more interesting.

Well if the Wizard comes into it intending to fight, then there's no ambush and the Wizard probably has spells prepared specifically to deal with the Mage Killer. But you could try it if you want.

[Juntao112]

Which part of your body do you plan on affixing the portable hole to?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The artificer cohort is a fine idea. Cutting the cost of all the magic items necessary in half can only help. You do have to either bring him along to gain XP, or find a way for him to fill his craft reserve. That or provide an alternate form of XP such as ambrosia, agony, dark-craft points, or living souls to consume. There's also the thought bottle trick, but that'll likely get books chucked at your head.

The skills will have a damned hard time overcoming by themselves, but if they're supplementary to magic items doing some of the work, then they're invaluable. See invisibility doesn't help against a mage-skillmonkey hybrid's mundane hiding skills, but see invisibility plus a high spot mod makes avoiding detection deuced difficult for a mage. Decent survival and gather info mods will take a heckuva long time to track down a wizard, but couple the same with an ebony fly or a phantasmal steed and you can cut that time to something manageable. The latter example can be handled with handle animal and a flying mount as well but you only get so many skill points and handle animal is only marginally or even tangetially useful to mage-hunting.

A factotum can certainly make a decent mage-hunter. The limitations on its casting ability still keep it close to the spirit of what we're talking about, in-spite of getting up to a 7th level spell.

[Story]

Keep in mind that if Leadership is allowed, wizards will probably take it too.

[Togo]

Well if the Wizard comes into it intending to fight, then there's no ambush and the Wizard probably has spells prepared specifically to deal with the Mage Killer. But you could try it if you want.

When I say 'standard' I mean 'the one I normally use'. It's not close to the build used by the OP and may even include some spellcasting, although not much and I'm certainly not using Tier 1 or Tier 2. I can't promise to win, but I may be able to make a decent try.

The only reason I suggest it, it because it strikes me that most of Kelb's advice is something that my planned character already does, so I'm interested to see whether it works or no.

[Story]

So what is the scenario and conditions? Is anyone willing to run it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just throwing this out there.

My advice on mage-hunting is given with the knowledge that challenging a mage to a duel is utter suicide if you're not a mage-equivalent (T1 or T2 class) yourself.

The tactical advantage of suprise coupled with the strategic advantage of an unsuspecting target are paramount to a low or no casting (from class ability) mage-hunter. Losing either is bad. Losing both means its time to run away and either pick another target or completely overhaul your strategy for the one at hand.

[DMVerdandi]

Which part of your body do you plan on affixing the portable hole to?
Probably backpack. Have him sit inside and pass me stuff from my back at his or my discression.


The artificer cohort is a fine idea. Cutting the cost of all the magic items necessary in half can only help. You do have to either bring him along to gain XP, or find a way for him to fill his craft reserve. That or provide an alternate form of XP such as ambrosia, agony, dark-craft points, or living souls to consume. There's also the thought bottle trick, but that'll likely get books chucked at your head.

The skills will have a damned hard time overcoming by themselves, but if they're supplementary to magic items doing some of the work, then they're invaluable. See invisibility doesn't help against a mage-skillmonkey hybrid's mundane hiding skills, but see invisibility plus a high spot mod makes avoiding detection deuced difficult for a mage. Decent survival and gather info mods will take a heckuva long time to track down a wizard, but couple the same with an ebony fly or a phantasmal steed and you can cut that time to something manageable. The latter example can be handled with handle animal and a flying mount as well but you only get so many skill points and handle animal is only marginally or even tangetially useful to mage-hunting.

A factotum can certainly make a decent mage-hunter. The limitations on its casting ability still keep it close to the spirit of what we're talking about, in-spite of getting up to a 7th level spell.
Danke.


Keep in mind that if Leadership is allowed, wizards will probably take it too.
Sure they will, but that is irrelevant when they have things like gate and summon monster under their belts.
Not expecting that means you already lost the game.
Leadership is good for a wizard, albiet almost irrelevant, but essential for a mage-hunter. Teamwork is absolutely necessary.


Just throwing this out there.

My advice on mage-hunting is given with the knowledge that challenging a mage to a duel is utter suicide if you're not a mage-equivalent (T1 or T2 class) yourself.

The tactical advantage of suprise coupled with the strategic advantage of an unsuspecting target are paramount to a low or no casting (from class ability) mage-hunter. Losing either is bad. Losing both means its time to run away and either pick another target or completely overhaul your strategy for the one at hand.
true...

[DangerDanger]

Anyone know much about how dragonmarked stuff works?

Check these feats out.

Mark of Stars: You are never surprised or flat-footed; +2 to AC, Ref saves

Ashbound Mark: +2 on spell save DCs against creatures that cast arcane spells; +1 on attacks against such creatures

Dragonmark Spellturning: Spend 1 action point to turn a spell or spell-like ability back upon the original caster

It all just seems too easy.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Anyone know much about how dragonmarked stuff works?

Check these feats out.

Mark of Stars: You are never surprised or flat-footed; +2 to AC, Ref saves

Ashbound Mark: +2 on spell save DCs against creatures that cast arcane spells; +1 on attacks against such creatures

Dragonmark Spellturning: Spend 1 action point to turn a spell or spell-like ability back upon the original caster

It all just seems too easy.

Note the prerequisites for the feats, however:

Mark of Stars requires a Siberys Dragonmark (so, 2 levels in a prestige class that's actually not all that bad)

Ashbound Mark requires 2 feats - Ashbound (ECS) and any dragonmark (true or aberrant).

Dragonmark Spellturning relies on your dragonmark level to determine the level of spell turned, and action points are a very finite resource. Although, a barbarian with that feat that gives them temporary action points could make good use of it...

On the whole, there's some real gems in there, but a lot of fine print as well. I believe that someone did a Dragonmark Handbook, somewhere.

EDIT: the Handbook was on the MinMax boards. Damn.

[Togo]

So what is the scenario and conditions? Is anyone willing to run it?

Two players in search of vaguely neutral DM!

[EarFall]

Artificers are arcane. Unless you're completely ignoring the fluff, it's right out to use one as an ally of the mage hunter.

Anyhow, this doesn't make very much sense to begin with. This would be, I guess, a solo campaign with a random lunatic running around and killing mages. Unless the world has "magic is illegal" the character concept is a chaotic evil lunatic who kills stuff because it wiggles its fingers.

The problem is, even IF you get manage to kill a few, you're going to have problems as a mundane. You better have AMAZING social skills, because guards, law enforcement, and guilds are going to be ALL OVER your sweet butt.

The mechanics don't favor you, and I'd like to add, the fluff, unless you assume a very specific and unlikely setting are also against you.

Now, you could have a guy hunting necromancers, evil wizards, careless sorcerers, etc... but that isn't the concept you used. Sure, people recommend evil characters all the time, but they tend to:

1. Have magic to deal with these things
2. Have awesome social skills to deal with these things
3. Perhaps be lawful evil so that things tolerate it. (You could, I suppose, be lawful evil, but you're still breaking the law, so in the eyes of the law it wouldn't matter).

Additionally, high level mages usually are in guilds. And then it's pretty much game over. I hope you're sticking to sorcerers or malcontents already in the guilds "bad books".

[DMVerdandi]

Artificers are arcane. Unless you're completely ignoring the fluff, it's right out to use one as an ally of the mage hunter.

Whut? Artificers are supernatural, all the way, but they don't actually even have magic in the traditional sense. Artificer Infusions may be vancian, but it is neither arcane nor divine. It has to do with rituals involving crafting magical items and nothing else. It's actually untyped. And since they use the UMD to actually pass checks for crafting, the argument that it isn't actually magical becomes valid. It's just... Damn good equipment.



Anyhow, this doesn't make very much sense to begin with. This would be, I guess, a solo campaign with a random lunatic running around and killing mages. Unless the world has "magic is illegal" the character concept is a chaotic evil lunatic who kills stuff because it wiggles its fingers.
Agreed.


The problem is, even IF you get manage to kill a few, you're going to have problems as a mundane. You better have AMAZING social skills, because guards, law enforcement, and guilds are going to be ALL OVER your sweet butt.
Agreed/


The mechanics don't favor you, and I'd like to add, the fluff, unless you assume a very specific and unlikely setting are also against you.

Now, you could have a guy hunting necromancers, evil wizards, careless sorcerers, etc... but that isn't the concept you used. Sure, people recommend evil characters all the time, but they tend to:

1. Have magic to deal with these things
2. Have awesome social skills to deal with these things
3. Perhaps be lawful evil so that things tolerate it. (You could, I suppose, be lawful evil, but you're still breaking the law, so in the eyes of the law it wouldn't matter).

This is where I totally agree. I think that the idea of "huntin mages" is too broad and imbalanced. Mages in a particular guild? Cool. A certain type of mage? Bring it.

But the thing that seperates DND from whatever book, movie, or game that people keep getting this idea of "mage hunter" from is solid mechanics. DND has to be played, and isn't just some literary thing.
In DND, Full casters could even be considered underpowered in some settings, but what they have in spades is variety and ease of casting. all of their spells could be considered as designed for adventure and fighting, thus are balanced as such. They aren't ritualists, or anything. In all honesty, all DND mages are battle mages, and sick ones at that. They don't keep using the same spell over and over, Naw. They use the one that is right for the job.

You aren't going to just "hansel and gretel: witch hunters" any of these, mainly because they are played by a DM, or a Player, who knows the rules of the game, and always keeps the objective of winning in mind. That applies for all of those settings.

What is the mage's worst enemy? Himself. His Hubristic Attitude. Few chin-check a master mage, because they are wielders of the cosmos, and the cosmos is bigger than a meaty fist, but only when they get in that cackle-mode do they leave openings.

But players and DM's don't do that. They aren't crazy. They are optimizers, and that is why it looks like DND wizards are cut from a different cloth. It's the lack of insanity. Sure, if you are nuts, even a god can slip up, but if you are sane to a paranoid degree, you are prepared.



Additionally, high level mages usually are in guilds. And then it's pretty much game over. I hope you're sticking to sorcerers or malcontents already in the guilds "bad books".
And that is if they don't scry you from the jump.

[Story]

Artificers are arcane. Unless you're completely ignoring the fluff, it's right out to use one as an ally of the mage hunter.


Technically, they're neither arcane nor divine. But you're right that it doesn't make much sense, since they're effectively casters too.

[Flickerdart]

Whut? Artificers are supernatural, all the way, but they don't actually even have magic in the traditional sense. Artificer Infusions may be vancian, but it is neither arcane nor divine. It has to do with rituals involving crafting magical items and nothing else. It's actually untyped. And since they use the UMD to actually pass checks for crafting, the argument that it isn't actually magical becomes valid. It's just... Damn good equipment.
Artificers make magic items. Just because they can't actually cast the spells necessary doesn't make the items somehow not magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Artificers make magic items. Just because they can't actually cast the spells necessary doesn't make the items somehow not magic.

That's true, but it's not hard to fluff the artificer himself as non-magical.

The time required to infuse any decent infusion takes a while (usually at least a minute) while they don't prepare their infusions or have an infusions known list. This suggests that the power they manipulate doesn't come from their own minds or blood like it would with a wizard or sorcerer. They also have to bind the magic into an object for it to do anything, suggesting a less complete grasp of the magic itself (an idea that's right in the default fluff). The limited number of infusions per day can simply be a measure of how mentally taxing it is to work with those forces.

The necessity of using UMD for any item that normally requires knowledge of the spell(s) contained within it, even if the spell is on the artificer's infusion list, also suggest a less than complete understanding of magic and a lack of innate talent.

A sorcerer has magic boiling in his blood.

A wizard has magic caged in his mind.

An artificer just pulls in ambient magic to make cool gear.