Help! Need a good base class for bad ability scores!

[artofregicide]

Okay, so the stats for the character in question (human), are:

STR 10 (+0), DEX 9 (-1), CON 7 (-2), INT 15 (+2), WIS 12 (+1), CHA 13 (+1)

Why choose such terrible stats you say? I didn't. These are my real life stats, if I made myself a D&D character.

So here's the question: what base class would be the best to take with these (admittedly horrible) ability scores?

I'm not really looking for a heavy degree of optimization, but feel free to contribute anything you want.

Prestige class suggestions welcome but first I need to figure out a base class.

So far, I've been thinking either Bard or Rogue.

[Flickerdart]

Warlocks are famous for their NADness, and that Intelligence makes a Wizard plausible. Psion might be a good choice - when you get to a higher level, swap bodies with something a little less...bad.

[Slipperychicken]

Take an INT-focused class, and Faerie Mysteries Initiate at first level. Int to HP will save your life. You could make a Wizard out of that, and if you're taking FMI anyway, Grey Elf's Con dump isn't so bad. From there, you can go into the Elven Generalist/Domain Wizard route, with decent HP (1d4+3) and a starting casting stat of 17. Your Fort saves will suck, but aside from that, you're pretty much good.

[Amnestic]

Play a squishy support/skill monkey Bard. They're feat intensive, but if you're going the Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration optimisation route then they need very little in the way of actual stats to contribute.

[demigodus]

You could always play a wolf that has a human with those stats as a human companion (aka druid)

There is the Wild Cohort feat in case you feel 1 disposable animal minion isn't sufficient to cover your needs.

Wizard can make great use of that int, but the con would hurt you badly.

[AttilaTheGeek]

It depends what level you're starting at and what the rest of the party is. A buffing wizard can make do with 15 INT because (s)he doesn't need high saves, and likes to stand in the back and make the rest of the party feel good. Note that that won't really work if you're starting at low level, but above level 4-5 it'll work just fine.

Alternatively, you could just run cross-country for a month before your campaign to raise your CON.

[GreenSerpent]

Warlock. Warlock can work with all 3s.

Might have trouble if you're not chaotic or evil though...

[koboldish]

Wizard. You only need one ability for that.

[Theoboldi]

As other people said, warlock. It's pretty much the go-to class for when your ability scores suck. And in case you are not chaotic or evil, there still is the dragonfire adept, because any chump can become a dragon. Still, this is a weaker choice than warlock, because the save of its breath weapon depends on constitution.

[Sandman]

Don't think you will survive the first level of any class with less than d8 hp, though bard could be OKish if you stay as far away from anything pointy as you can.
Wouldn't even think about wizard if I were you.

[GreenSerpent]

I've heard Binder works with poor ability scores too.

[Eldan]

Squishy, but a wizard should be doable. Maybe get Abrupt Jaunt, for at least some degree of survival.

[Norin]

Hmm, Beguiler?

A bit better hd (d6) to offset the con.
Enough int to be ok at what you do.
Can wear light armour without ASF to help AC from your bad dex.
Your int boosts the already good skill points.
Your cha helps you in social situations where a Beguiler will shine.

It wont be supergood at low levels, but i think it would more or less fit your stats.

I would up my int at lvl 4 to 16, then get a +2 int item asap. That will make your caster stat pretty nice.

Also try to get your dex to 10 maybe to not have a - to AC and all your dex based skills.

[shadow_archmagi]

Artificer doesn't mind low stats. I mean, high stats help, but you'll still be the most useful party member by far.

[Vaz]

I wouldn't take a Wizard. 2 HP at first level is downright lethal. With that low a Charisma you'd be lucky to get a Fighter to stand in front of you.

An Archivist would likely be better. Int Based Casting, Wis bonus spells, D6 Hit Dice, and access to a ton of buff spells. Level 2, you get access to Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance to hit average stats so you don't die so easily.

Alternatively, a Rokugan Courtier. Not exactly one in which combat plays a part, so low HP doesn't matter, you can send Charisma through the roof, lots of Social based skills and skill points, as well as ability to learn class skills that can be used for adventuring. You could take a Favoured Soul or Shugenja for Divine Casting, or Divine Bard for boosting.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As other people said, warlock. It's pretty much the go-to class for when your ability scores suck. And in case you are not chaotic or evil, there still is the dragonfire adept, because any chump can become a dragon. Still, this is a weaker choice than warlock, because the save of its breath weapon depends on constitution.

Dragonfire Adept needs Con, as almost all it's breath effects have a save included.

[Theoboldi]

Dragonfire Adept needs Con, as almost all it's breath effects have a save included.

As I said. It's explitly a worse choice than warlock in this case, and I've only mentioned it in case he can't use warlock for some unthinkable reason.

[Archmage1]

As stated, warlock, or any casterish type. you could probably also make it as a rogue, as a pure skillmonkey(or factotum)

This is a bit more of a joke, but...
Fighter. since this is based on your real life stats, argue that improving your real life stats should improve his. Within 2 years, you should have at least a 20 in str, and a 16 in con. probably not much dex though.
and, on the bright side, you wouldn't be any more useless than fighter normally is.

[Amnestic]

Dragonfire Adept needs Con, as almost all it's breath effects have a save included.

Most of the effects are Save: Half rather than Save: No though, and if they're there for battlefield support/debuffing, then half damage ain't such a big deal. A save on Entangling Exhalation just hurts the damage - the entangle effect is what you're after. A save on Slow Breath just cuts the duration. Hurts, but it could be worse.

Only time it's gonna be a big issue is against Evasion mobs, and you can fix that by UMDing some wands for that opponent.

DFA may be worse than Warlock with regards to NAD, but they're still definitely viable.

[Hopeless]

Okay, so the stats for the character in question (human), are:
STR 10 (+0), DEX 9 (-1), CON 7 (-2), INT 15 (+2), WIS 12 (+1), CHA 13 (+1)
Why choose such terrible stats you say? I didn't. These are my real life stats, if I made myself a D&D character.
So here's the question: what base class would be the best to take with these (admittedly horrible) ability scores?
I'm not really looking for a heavy degree of optimization, but feel free to contribute anything you want.
Prestige class suggestions welcome but first I need to figure out a base class.
So far, I've been thinking either Bard or Rogue.

With those stats either a Wizard, Cleric or Bard might be more likely, swap the stats a bit say Int for Dex and Wis for con and a Rogue will be fine, if you keep as is then you could pull off a melee ranger as long as you keep to light armour and paired weapons since ranged will take until 4th to improve depending on which d&d you're playing.

A very unusual Paladin is possible but Ranger would be a better choice as previously said, bard you should be okay but rogue would be precarious but ultimately its what you fancy playing which should be your decision.

[artofregicide]

First of all: Thanks for all the responses. You guys and gals are amazing!

The verdict is: My ability scores suck! But class wise: I'm thinking Warlock (I'm down with evil or chaotic), or more likely plain old Bard (buff-o-mancer + diplomancy). I don't have any musical talent, but I pretentiously assume I'm a pretty good orator.

Wizard is out on not wanting to have 4 HP.

As for the other suggestions: most of them are possibilities, but of the Core I'd go with bard, and very easily go Warlock outside of Core.

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Prophes0r]

With those stats you have an RP reason to be a warlock too.

Who better to be making deals with otherworldly being than the weak?

[Erik Vale]

precocious apprentice reserve feat wizard.
Or lost traditions warlock.
or lost traditions cleric.

[dspeyer]

15 is high enough for a caster. Make sure to put all your leveling bonuses in int, and you'll have enough for all your spells. Wizard or psion is viable so long as you don't get into fights for your first few levels. Remember that XP is won by overcoming challenges. Psion might be preferable because you can wear heavy armor (badly, but so what?). Beguiler gets a slightly larger hit die and more skills, which can be handy. I don't know of any int-based casters with more than d6.

If you go skillful, factotum probably beats rogue. Bigger hit die, more useful class features, and you don't want to attempt sneak attacks anyway. Alternatively, wildshaping ranger. The first few levels of being a noncombatative wilderness-guide will be annoying, but then you get to set aside your body. Follow with MoMF.

[Mithril Leaf]

Factotum with Faerie Mystery Initiate would be pretty solid. You're jonesing for Dexterity, but that's honestly not that big an issue.

[prufock]

Be an artificer, sell items, profit.

[Wyntonian]

Reroll?


Gordian knot, meet sword.

[Douglas]

Reroll?


Gordian knot, meet sword.
In this case, because of how these ability scores were generated, that would mean committing suicide. In real life. And hoping that some kind of reincarnation is real.

So, bad idea.

[Slipperychicken]

In this case, because of how these ability scores were generated, that would mean committing suicide. In real life. And hoping that some kind of reincarnation is real.


More like having some incomprehensible, otherworldly gamer choose not to possess you, and instead use some other poor sap to be slaughtered in his sick fantasy of pain and violence known as a "campaign".

With stats that bad, it's perfectly alright to turn down the call to adventure.

[Blue1005]

For what its worth, no one questioned the 150iq? over 2 standard deviations above the norm i believe...

[Douglas]

For what its worth, no one questioned the 150iq? over 2 standard deviations above the norm i believe...
No, equating the distributions of int and IQ would give 125 IQ for 15 int. Standard deviation of IQ is about 15, standard deviation of 3d6 is about 3. 5 IQ per point of int, with 10 int = 100 IQ as the center point average.

15 int is well above average, but not all that impressively rare.

[J-H]

If your total modifier is that low, you may qualify as having one or more Flaws. 4 feats at level 1 isn't bad. Psion gives you a bonus psionic feat, too.

Psionic Body + Overchannel + Talented + Hidden Talent (+2pp, 1 level 1 power from any list) gives you a total of 8 bonus hit points at level 1 and the ability to manifest Vigor as a level 2 caster for 10hp additional. As long as there are only 1-2 battles per day, you can start battles off with 10hp (base) + 10hp (temporary).

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... You could always go with one of the Generic classes from UA.

Either way, take the wild cohort feat and some way to buff it, and look into the joys of becoming a necropolitan. Or get some exercise and take the stat test again in a year. :smallsmile:

[artofregicide]

For the low CON score: I did factor in the fact that I'm out of shape. But I also factored in the fact that I get a sick commonly, and s

For INT: Yeah, it might just be arrogance talking. I'm probably more of a +1, but I've got such incredibly low scores elsewhere, I'm willing to be a bit optimistic with this one.

[Slipperychicken]

No, equating the distributions of int and IQ would give 125 IQ for 15 int. Standard deviation of IQ is about 15, standard deviation of 3d6 is about 3. 5 IQ per point of int, with 10 int = 100 IQ as the center point average.

15 int is well above average, but not all that impressively rare.

Mean of 3d6 is actually 10.5. 3d6 isn't a perfect bell curve like IQ, so they don't match exactly. Here's a table from this guy (http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/4008/converting-rpg-intelligence-values-into-iq), comparing IQ to 3d6.

Int| IQ | Prob on 3d6
3 | 62.0 | 0.5%
4 | 67.0| 1.4%
5 | 72.1 | 2.8%
6 | 77.2| 4.6%
7 | 82.3| 6.9%
8 | 87.3| 9.7%
9 | 92.4| 11.6%
10 | 97.5| 12.5%
11 | 102.5| 12.5%
12 | 107.6 | 11.6%
13 | 112.7 | 9.7%
14 | 117.7| 6.9%
15 | 122.8 | 4.6%
16 | 127.9 | 2.8%
17 | 133.0| 1.4%
18 | 138.0| 0.5%



According to the table and D&D's precedent of rounding down, INT 15 corresponds to IQs between 122.8 and 127.9. Of course, the IQ isn't the only and best indicator of intelligence. Just... take it with a grain of salt, because we're talking about a controversial approximation of a psychological construct, compared to an abstraction of that construct which is simplified so people can have fun playing a game :smalltongue:

EDIT: Made table easier to read.

[mcv]

Play a Pathfinder Wizard and take Toughness. You'll start with 7 HP. Maybe play a race with a Con bonus.

[limejuicepowder]

How did you decide on those scores, out of curiosity? There's only a table for what a given strength score would allow you to do.

Objective analysis?

[Blue1005]

No, equating the distributions of int and IQ would give 125 IQ for 15 int. Standard deviation of IQ is about 15, standard deviation of 3d6 is about 3. 5 IQ per point of int, with 10 int = 100 IQ as the center point average.

15 int is well above average, but not all that impressively rare.

The normed IQ score is 100, one deviation is 115, 2 is 130, 3 is 145.
I am aware it has been many many years sice a stats class, but that seems to be a fairly hard number to reach. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, but well above the normal 100.

[limejuicepowder]

Mean of 3d6 is actually 10.5. 3d6 isn't a perfect bell curve like IQ, so they don't match exactly. Here's a table from this guy (http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/4008/converting-rpg-intelligence-values-into-iq), comparing IQ to 3d6.

Int| IQ | Prob on 3d6
3 | 62.0 | 0.5%
4 | 67.0| 1.4%
5 | 72.1 | 2.8%
6 | 77.2| 4.6%
7 | 82.3| 6.9%
8 | 87.3| 9.7%
9 | 92.4| 11.6%
10 | 97.5| 12.5%
11 | 102.5| 12.5%
12 | 107.6 | 11.6%
13 | 112.7 | 9.7%
14 | 117.7| 6.9%
15 | 122.8 | 4.6%
16 | 127.9 | 2.8%
17 | 133.0| 1.4%
18 | 138.0| 0.5%



According to the table and D&D's precedent of rounding down, INT 15 corresponds to IQs between 122.8 and 127.9. Of course, the IQ isn't the only and best indicator of intelligence. Just... take it with a grain of salt, because we're talking about a controversial approximation of a psychological construct, compared to an abstraction of that construct which is simplified so people can have fun playing a game :smalltongue:

EDIT: Made table easier to read.

I don't understand how the numbers relate, or why the IQ scores only go up to 138. This seems to be classifying only "normal" IQ scores, and just throws out the gifted range. Psychologists have pegged various numbers as being the "genius" level of IQ, from 140+ (.4% of the population), to 180 (.0000005% of the population). If memory serves Einstein had an IQ of 180, which means he would be impossible to recreate without fiat in DnD.

[Nettlekid]

How did you decide on those scores, out of curiosity? There's only a table for what a given strength score would allow you to do.

Objective analysis?

I'd like to know how to do this as well. So far I think you can determine Strength based on the lifting limits, Int from IQ (as discussed here), and Con from holding your breath. The longest I've ever held my breath was 2 minutes, 36 seconds, giving me a 13 Con. That was hard to do.

[Gazzien]

I'd like to know how to do this as well. So far I think you can determine Strength based on the lifting limits, Int from IQ (as discussed here), and Con from holding your breath. The longest I've ever held my breath was 2 minutes, 36 seconds, giving me a 13 Con. That was hard to do.
Perhaps we could / should determine how to do each, then spread it as a <test/ joke/ whatever> on <social media of your choice>?
STR: Lifting, obvious
CON: Holding your breath
DEX: Reflex test (Factor to be determined)
INT: IQ Test (Factor to be determined)
WIS: ???
CHA: ???

These are just my ideas...

[Slipperychicken]

I don't understand how the numbers relate, or why the IQ scores only go up to 138. This seems to be classifying only "normal" IQ scores, and just throws out the gifted range. Psychologists have pegged various numbers as being the "genius" level of IQ, from 140+ (.4% of the population), to 180 (.0000005% of the population). If memory serves Einstein had an IQ of 180, which means he would be impossible to recreate without fiat in DnD.

It's just matching up standard deviation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation) of IQ (which uses the Normal curve), and 3d6 (which generates a different probability curve). Basically, the 3d6 curve isn't as wide as the Normal curve, so it doesn't represent values which deviate that far from the mean.

I'm not even sure if there is a combination of dice which can perfectly represent the Normal curve... But if real life was a TTRPG, Normal Curve would be the default resolution mechanic (as the d20 is to D&D), considering the number of things which adhere to it.

[TuggyNE]

I don't understand how the numbers relate, or why the IQ scores only go up to 138. This seems to be classifying only "normal" IQ scores, and just throws out the gifted range. Psychologists have pegged various numbers as being the "genius" level of IQ, from 140+ (.4% of the population), to 180 (.0000005% of the population). If memory serves Einstein had an IQ of 180, which means he would be impossible to recreate without fiat in DnD.

Yeah. That's actually correct; Einstein is not stattable at first level in D&D.

[IdleMuse]

I'm not even sure if there is a combination of dice which can perfectly represent the Normal curve... But if real life was a TTRPG, Normal Curve would be the default resolution mechanic (as the d20 is to D&D), considering the number of things which adhere to it.

XdY approximates the normal distribution, the higher X is, the closer it gets to a perfect gaussian normal.

[limejuicepowder]

Yeah. That's actually correct; Einstein is not stattable at first level in D&D.

He is at 5th though, if you only consider knowledge (physics). Give him a int score of 18 (which is still only .5% of the pop.) and it's fairly reasonable.

[TuggyNE]

He is at 5th though, if you only consider knowledge (physics). Give him a int score of 18 (which is still only .5% of the pop.) and it's fairly reasonable.

Assuming he put his level-up bonus into Int, for 19 total, it's probably not too bad, although arguably it's still 2-3 points short of his actual score.

[Slipperychicken]

Assuming he put his level-up bonus into Int, for 19 total, it's probably not too bad, although arguably it's still 2-3 points short of his actual score.

Maybe he has 3 levels in Human Paragon for the +2 INT. The "pushing the boundaries of knowledge and experience" fluff certainly sounds like it could include Einstein.

[TuggyNE]

Maybe he has 3 levels in Human Paragon for the +2 INT. The "pushing the boundaries of knowledge and experience" fluff certainly sounds like it could include Einstein.

Oh, yeah, dunno why I didn't think of that. :smallredface:

[artofregicide]

While we can all agree that Einstein was... almost super human in his intelligence, I'm not sure if I should reduce mine.

Is +2 int too much? That is to say, what would consider befitting of that modifier?

[TuggyNE]

While we can all agree that Einstein was... almost super human in his intelligence, I'm not sure if I should reduce mine.

Is +2 int too much? That is to say, what would consider befitting of that modifier?

Nah, you should be fine. That whole tangent was to indicate that, while rare, Int scores of over 14 are by no means non-existent.

[Slipperychicken]

While we can all agree that Einstein was... almost super human in his intelligence, I'm not sure if I should reduce mine.

Is +2 int too much? That is to say, what would consider befitting of that modifier?

It's quite reasonable for mortals like us (you have to be pretty smart to properly understand D&D rules, after all). Also, 15 is in the Elite Array, so it's not like you have to be a super-awesome PC to have a 15 :smalltongue:

['Able' Xanthis]

It should also be noted that the IQ of a person doesn't quite cover it all. I myself have a IQ of 120.5 and the other Playgrounders make me feel like an idiot most of the time.

This is the way i would test attributes.

Str; Use the Encumbrance rules as a base.
Dex; Reflex checks a tennis ball test would be enough for a sample.
Con; Suffocation rules should help out.
Int; IQ # is only part of it. Cognitive thought and Retention of learned matter are the big things, and both of those are much harder to quantify.
Wis; Instinct and Willpower. I wouldn't suggest it but the best way I could figure out would be to resist an addiction to smoking or something of that sort.
Cha; Tell a story at a public forum and see how many like minded people you get listening.

Also, here is how they measure up to others.

Ability Score Modifier Description
1 -5Inept
2-3 -4 Infant
4-5 -3 Child
6-7 -2 Significantly below adult human average; youth
8-9 -1 Below adult human average; teenager
10-11 0 Adult human average
12-13 +1 Above human average
14-15 +2 Significantly above human average
16-17 +3 Highly capable
18-19 +4 Extremely capable
20-21 +5 Best in the region
22-23 +6 Best in the country
24-25 +7 World-class ability; maximum human potential
26-27 +8 Above human achievement
28-29 +9 Significantly above human achievement
30+ +10 (and up) Legendary ability

[Blue1005]

It should also be noted that the IQ of a person doesn't quite cover it all. I myself have a IQ of 120.5 and the other Playgrounders make me feel like an idiot most of the time.



The ones that need to tout their intelligence are perhaps the ones that inflate it.

That said, Int should be based on many things i agree, not limited to one or two subjects.

[ahenobarbi]

Wizard. Become necropolitan when you can (@level 3) to ignore poor CON.

[artofregicide]

Wizard. Become necropolitan when you can (@level 3) to ignore poor CON.

I'm not sure that I'd want to be nailed to a post and slowly die, honestly.

Actually, that goes for all Undead. It's me, after all... and I assume that being a ghoul is pretty lame. :smalltongue:

[ahenobarbi]

I'm not sure that I'd want to be nailed to a post and slowly die, honestly.

You would you prefer to go and die quicker, less painful but:
- permanently (if no one raises you)
- repeatable (if someone does rise you)
:smallconfused:

EDIT: Your character could cheat the ritual to be far less painful (pain killers, something to die faster).

[Grim Reader]

The high Int pushes towards a caster, but the low Con wants a high hit die. I assume, since you are playing yourself, that race is fixed as Human.

I recommend Human Paragon 1 -> Wizard 1 -> Human Paragon +2. Use the +2 ability score boost to repair your Con. If you are allowed to retrain out a feat later on, Toughness at level 1 may well be appropriate. Dip Shaper of Form (Dragon Compendium) as soon as you can, that is sweetness when playing yourself. For higher levels, Abjurant Champion.

Its not what you'd call an optimized build, it compromises for low-level survivability. But it should work out ok for you.

[Norin]

If you are allowed to use FR regional feats, this is an option you could consider too i guess, as caster with low con?
Mind over body, 1st lvl feat (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/mind-over-body--1954/)