SRD And Archer Type Character Optimization

[bendking]

(First question about SRD got answered and so edited out)
So what is the best optimized archer build?
My preferences are the following:
(We're playing the 3.5e)
- I like the idea of moving alot around the combat area
- I think casting is really cool as long as it doesn't completely take over my playstyle and or makes me a caster.
- I'm starting at level 2, and don't have much source limitations, as long as they aren't from really un-familiar books, mainly because my DM doesn't want to learn alot of new rules and feats. (but I think I can convince him to)
- If hail of arrows combines well with the above it would be pretty awesome.
- Long range functionality would be welcome, but isn't at a very high prioroty like the rest.

Thanks ahead for any answers given, Ben.

[Juntao112]

That is a third party SRD site with a lot of homebrew and badly made builds. Do not use it under any circumstances and purge it from your browser history

[Eldariel]

D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) is the SRD I suggest using; DnDWiki is what it is. And yes, D20SRD is accurate. DnDWiki not so much.

As for best Core Archer, all you can really get for Archery in Core is Rapid Shot and weapon enhancing feats and Rage. Generally, this makes the best Archer in Core a Cleric with good enough stats for high Wis & Dex and decent Str (you can ignore Turn Undead). Domains can be geared towards Archery; War-domain to get Weapon Focus in Longbow would work provided a deity with War-domain and Longbow as favored weapon. Travel, Luck and Trickery are other good Domains with useful powers and some good spells.

Early on a Cleric is behind a Fighter but around level 7-9 you begin to get things like Divine Power, Quickened Divine Favor, Greater Magic Weapon and such which begin to tip the scales in Cleric's favor. As a bonus, Cleric can also pick feats "Craft Wondrous Items" and "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" to save a chunk of gold (in exchange for some XP you'll eventually get back) in items allowing you to get more for the same provided the game has some downtime. This is doubly important for Archers since Archers rely heavily on weapon enhancements (well-enhanced bow is the starting point; something like +1 Holy Shocking Frost Flaming or such with Greater Magic Weapon to get it up to speed - then you can further enhance individual Arrows fairly cheaply with things like Bane and such).


If you don't want spellcasting, Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 12 or some such. Just get the skills and the feats you want and then pick up all the weapon damage enhancing thingies you can find. You do need help from friendly casters then though.

Outside Core you can do much better on a Cleric (or Archivist) and non-magical archers get Knowledge Devotion, Targetteer Fighter and so on. Depends on sources you have available.

[TuggyNE]

My questions are the following:
1. Is the SRD site reliable for 3.5e? I mean, I see some weapon stats and class features that don't match their description in the official books, examples are the Cutlass stats, which say the medium cutlass is 1d8, and the Track feat in the ranger class: The SRD says it's not a class feature, while the official books do.
Mabye I misread or something but I'd like that point to be cleared.

Dandwiki has a poor reputation of accuracy/clarity; it's often difficult to tell what's homebrew and what's official.

It's safer to use the Hypertext D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), as Eldariel already linked.


2. Another question would be what is the best optimized archer build? I see on the SRD site that there's a build called shower of arrows, but that leads to my first question, wether the site is actualy reliable.

There is no single best optimized archer build, but you could ask around here for some good ideas. (For example, Swift Hunter for close-in precision archery.)

(Several dandwiki "optimized builds" have in my experience proved extremely shaky and based on dubious or outright wrong readings. I would not consider it a good source of build advice.)

[Vaz]

There is an Archer based character in I think either Complete Divine or Adventurer; Justice kf Weald and Woe.

It has access to a Soell that allows additional damage to a character deoending on how many spells are active upon it when cast on an arrow you then shoot.

If you are an Elf, the Arcane Archer may interest you; only problem is qualifying for it which can be a pain unless you set out to qualify for it.

[nedz]

You were right to catch the errors on the DANDWiki site — it is very unreliable.
Annoyingly it does come out high up on search engine lists.
Don't use this site.

I'd second the hypertext D20 site, though you can also use the official SRD
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35

The hypertext site does have a few more things on it, but the two are almost identical.

[Eldariel]

There is an Archer based character in I think either Complete Divine or Adventurer; Justice kf Weald and Woe.

It's in Champions of Ruin. It's okay but really, all you want is a Splitting bow (also from the book); you don't need the class.

[bendking]

So, other questions in response to your answers:
1. Would you consider this build viable/good?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shower_of_Arrows_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build %29#Variants
2. If not, where can I find optimized reliable builds for archers or anything else I might want to try?
Thanks ahead.

[Eldariel]

So, other questions in response to your answers:
1. Would you consider this build viable/good?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shower_of_Arrows_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build %29#Variants

It's crude and rudimentary though it has the right idea for a Swift Hunter. Ranger/Scout is a potent combo but it should be using Travel Devotion with 1-level Cleric-dip. Also, this fundamentally limits you to only doing damage at short ranges (60' with feat "Ranged Skirmisher" from Dragon Magazine) and only to crit-vulnerable opponents and your Favored Enemies.

Unsurprisingly, you should pick favored enemies that are usually immune to criticals (the 5 types that have blanket immunity are Undead, Elemental, Plant, Ooze, Construct).


2. If not, where can I find optimized reliable builds for archers or anything else I might want to try?
Thanks ahead.

Minmaxboards (http://www.minmaxboards.com) got eaten so I'm not sure. Once the data salvaging is complete, that's a good place to go to. You can just ask. I'm the writer of the Archery Handbook for instance so if I knew what you're interested in I could provide you with a build.


Are you looking for:
- Long range functionality (over 60')?
- Casting/No casting (Casting does it better, as a rule)?
- Hail of Arrows-type or one-shot one-kill type (former is more efficient but latter can be made work with 3.0 material)?
- What level range and source limitations are in place?

[rockdeworld]

Ninja'd by Eldariel. I'll just add that the red flags I see are a 32 point buy and the fact that this builder took Weapon Focus: Longbow at level 3 despite picking an Elf race.

Here's a build/handbook by Dictum Mortum (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/quickstart-cleric-archer.html)

Here's a handbook with some builds on wotc forums (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866186/The_Ultimate_Archer_Handbook)

[bendking]

It's crude and rudimentary though it has the right idea for a Swift Hunter. Ranger/Scout is a potent combo but it should be using Travel Devotion with 1-level Cleric-dip. Also, this fundamentally limits you to only doing damage at short ranges (60' with feat "Ranged Skirmisher" from Dragon Magazine) and only to crit-vulnerable opponents and your Favored Enemies.

Unsurprisingly, you should pick favored enemies that are usually immune to criticals (the 5 types that have blanket immunity are Undead, Elemental, Plant, Ooze, Construct).



Minmaxboards (http://www.minmaxboards.com) got eaten so I'm not sure. Once the data salvaging is complete, that's a good place to go to. You can just ask. I'm the writer of the Archery Handbook for instance so if I knew what you're interested in I could provide you with a build.


Are you looking for:
- Long range functionality (over 60')?
- Casting/No casting (Casting does it better, as a rule)?
- Hail of Arrows-type or one-shot one-kill type (former is more efficient but latter can be made work with 3.0 material)?
- What level range and source limitations are in place?
I would love you to make me a build if you'd care to, so here are what I want in my character:
(We're playing the 3.5e)
- I like the idea of moving alot around the combat area
- I think casting is really cool as long as it doesn't completely take over my playstyle and or makes me a caster.
- I'm starting at level 2, and don't have much source limitations, as long as they aren't from really un-familiar books, mainly because my DM doesn't want to learn alot of new rules and feats. (but I think I can convince him to)
- If hail of arrows combines well with the above it would be pretty awesome.
- Long range functionality would be welcome, but isn't at a very high prioroty like the rest.

If you need any more specific prefences I would be glad to supply, thanks.

[Eldariel]

I would love you to make me a build if you'd care to, so here are what I want in my character:
(We're playing the 3.5e)
- I like the idea of moving alot around the combat area
- I think casting is really cool as long as it doesn't completely take over my playstyle and or makes me a caster.
- I'm starting at level 2, and don't have much source limitations, as long as they aren't from really un-familiar books, mainly because my DM doesn't want to learn alot of new rules and feats. (but I think I can convince him to)
- If hail of arrows combines well with the above it would be pretty awesome.
- Long range functionality would be welcome, but isn't at a very high prioroty like the rest.

If you need any more specific prefences I would be glad to supply, thanks.

Well, any Cleric-using build can do the "move and full attack"-part; the remaining question I have is whether you'd rather take the Scout/Ranger path or the Cleric path? Cleric-path is prolly better though Scout/Ranger gets some very decent damage going.

The biggest advantage the Cleric-path has is that Cleric doesn't care about Crit Immunity; a Cleric does good damage to anybody from anywhere. Cleric also doesn't have to move around though the option exists.

[bendking]

Well, any Cleric-using build can do the "move and full attack"-part; the remaining question I have is whether you'd rather take the Scout/Ranger path or the Cleric path? Cleric-path is prolly better though Scout/Ranger gets some very decent damage going.

The biggest advantage the Cleric-path has is that Cleric doesn't care about Crit Immunity; a Cleric does good damage to anybody from anywhere. Cleric also doesn't have to move around though the option exists.
Well if I'd have to become a support/healer/buffing cleric I would rather not, but as long as being a cleric doesn't become a big part of my char I could fit it in with the personality and history of my char rather easily.
I don't want to become a full on support cleric because we already have one of those, by the way.
And by Cleric path do you mean I would invest fully in cleric levels or combine cleric with ranger or scout?
I would like you to tell me the advantages of each path if you aren't able to figure out what's best for me.
Thanks again for the help. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Well if I'd have to become a support/healer/buffing cleric I would rather not, but as long as being a cleric doesn't become a big part of my char I could fit it in with the personality and history of my char rather easily.
I don't want to become a full on support cleric because we already have one of those, by the way.
And by Cleric path do you mean I would invest fully in cleric levels or combine cleric with ranger or scout?
I would like you to tell me the advantages of each path if you aren't able to figure out what's best for me.
Thanks again for the help. :smallbiggrin:

Cleric path means you become a Cleric Warrior; Scout/Ranger wants 1 level of Cleric but no more. That is, you only take levels in Cleric and PRCs that advance Cleric-casting, and use your spells to buff yourself (and others if necessary outside combat) into a combat machine.

The principal advantage of this is that Cleric spell list has a lot of buffs, many of them Personal, that allow you to buff weapon damage without regard to what kinds of attacks you're doing. This makes for a comparatively high damage Archer.


You'll have slots leftover so you can also prepare utility spells for when they'd be necessary (e.g. Dispel Magic, Air Walk and such) but principally your spell slots will be geared towards making you a killing machine.

Fundamentals of this road:
- You take the Zen Archery-feat from Complete Warrior. It makes your ranged attacks based on Wisdom rather than Dexterity; since Wisdom is your casting stat, this'll save you a lot of trouble stat-wise.
- You can use Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine in conjunction with Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane) or Quicken Spell (PHB) to make buff spells persistent upon your person. This allows for maintaining short duration buffs like Divine Favor and Divine Power all day, giving you a leg up on everybody.
- You combine all that with naturally Hour/Level buffs (Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment off the top of my head) and you're good to go. You can also take Travel Devotion from Travel Domain [Complete Champion] and spend your swift actions moving each round.

All that is fueled by your Turn Undead so optimally you'd have decent Charisma but it's not a really big deal; 10 Charisma is plenty. You can just spend a lot of feats on taking Extra Turning multiple times (also, the Undeath-domain provides said feat if you happen to feel it appropriate for your character) and eventually maybe acquire a Nightstick [Libris Mortis] and Reliquary Holy Symbol [Magic Item Compendium] to provide you with extras. Don't go overboard with those but that'll help you fuel the feats. Really, 2-3 Persistent Spells is all you need.


Check the link from rockdeworld, it has a pretty solid Cleric Archer framework.

[bendking]

Cleric path means you become a Cleric Warrior; Scout/Ranger wants 1 level of Cleric but no more. That is, you only take levels in Cleric and PRCs that advance Cleric-casting, and use your spells to buff yourself (and others if necessary outside combat) into a combat machine.

The principal advantage of this is that Cleric spell list has a lot of buffs, many of them Personal, that allow you to buff weapon damage without regard to what kinds of attacks you're doing. This makes for a comparatively high damage Archer.


You'll have slots leftover so you can also prepare utility spells for when they'd be necessary (e.g. Dispel Magic, Air Walk and such) but principally your spell slots will be geared towards making you a killing machine.

Fundamentals of this road:
- You take the Zen Archery-feat from Complete Warrior. It makes your ranged attacks based on Wisdom rather than Dexterity; since Wisdom is your casting stat, this'll save you a lot of trouble stat-wise.
- You can use Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine in conjunction with Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane) or Quicken Spell (PHB) to make buff spells persistent upon your person. This allows for maintaining short duration buffs like Divine Favor and Divine Power all day, giving you a leg up on everybody.
- You combine all that with naturally Hour/Level buffs (Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment off the top of my head) and you're good to go. You can also take Travel Devotion from Travel Domain [Complete Champion] and spend your swift actions moving each round.

All that is fueled by your Turn Undead so optimally you'd have decent Charisma but it's not a really big deal; 10 Charisma is plenty. You can just spend a lot of feats on taking Extra Turning multiple times (also, the Undeath-domain provides said feat if you happen to feel it appropriate for your character) and eventually maybe acquire a Nightstick [Libris Mortis] and Reliquary Holy Symbol [Magic Item Compendium] to provide you with extras. Don't go overboard with those but that'll help you fuel the feats. Really, 2-3 Persistent Spells is all you need.


Check the link from rockdeworld, it has a pretty solid Cleric Archer framework.
I read everything and to be honest, now that I think about it, being a cleric might not be for me nor my character, would you say this build is far more superior than a scout/ranger one?
Because if not, and if it's not a bother I think I prefer a scout/ranger one (I guess a Swift Hunter), sorry to bother you with all this writing, haha.
(If it's not too much trouble, could you browse this guide and tell me wether it's any good? http://dictummortuum.blogspot.co.il/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html)
And say I want to go the Cleric path ,would you say it's a complicated/hard to play role? and please explain how support heavy it is.
(If it matters, my character worships Saint Cuthbert)

[Eldariel]

I read everything and to be honest, now that I think about it, being a cleric might not be for me nor my character, would you say this build is far more superior than a scout/ranger one?
Because if not, and if it's not a bother I think I prefer a scout/ranger one (I guess a Swift Hunter), sorry to bother you with all this writing, haha.
(If it's not too much trouble, could you browse this guide and tell me wether it's any good? http://dictummortuum.blogspot.co.il/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html)
And say I want to go the Cleric path ,would you say it's a complicated/hard to play role? and please explain how support heavy it is.
(If it matters, my character worships Saint Cuthbert)

Roleplaying an Archer Cleric of St. Cuthbert? Easy as hell. St. Cuthbert has a very martial bent for a deity anyways so a warrior Cleric would probably be the most typical kind of Cleric he'd have, and then it's just a choice of weapon and for a ranged weapon, Longbow works as fine as any for him. Support? Well, you don't have to do any at all. One of the reasons Cleric is such an excellent class is that they're very good at party buffing. Another, however, is that they're excellent at self-buffing.

In other words, you can support if you want to but there's absolutely no need to; you can also focus all your resources on becoming an extremely lethal Archer.


The bigger problem with St. Cuthbert specifically is that his default Domains are kinda rubbish for an Archer; see if you could ask DM to trade in e.g. Planning domain for something, or maybe War or something.

The Ranger/Scout path would also function just fine though it's got more limitations, and worshipping St. Cuthbert does have sort of an issue since he doesn't offer the Travel-domain and you really do want Travel Devotion to be able to move and full attack.

Objectively, Archer Cleric is stronger but not so much so that a Ranger/Scout is completely unviable by comparison.

[docnessuno]

So, other questions in response to your answers:
1. Would you consider this build viable/good?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shower_of_Arrows_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build %29#Variants
2. If not, where can I find optimized reliable builds for archers or anything else I might want to try?
Thanks ahead.

I prefer to grab manyshot and greater manyshot by level 9. I also prefer to get up to level 6 or 8 as a scout (in the 20 levels span).

Example (human or 1 flaw):
1 Scout 1 - Point blank shot, Precise shot
2/6: Scout +2 (3) / Ranger +3 (3) in any order
7/9: Scout +0 (3) / Ranger +3 (6)
10: Scout +1 (4) / Ranger +0 (6)

Feats:
1: Point blank shot, Precise shot
?: Track, rapid shot endurance
3: Open
6: Swift hunter
9: Manyshot, Greater manyshot
10: Improved skirmish

From there, 2 levels of scout grant you flawless stride (wich is pretty good) and 2 more grant you a bonus feat (improved initiative is probably the best option). On the other hand, 5 levels of ranger grant you Improved Precise Shot and some spellcasting. If you are allowed to retrain feats (as per PHB 2) i would go Ranger +2 (to have BAB 11 at level 12 and grab Improved Precise Shot) / Scout +4 / Ranger +6 (and retrain improved precise shot before getting it again at level 19), otherwise both options are nice, and also skipping the extra scout levels and going ranger +10 is perfectly viable.

As for the cleric idea: Why every single time someone calls for an archer build the answer is "play a cleric"? We all know that T1 classes do it better, but i don't see this trend when someone asks for a fighter build.

[Yuukale]

I believe the choice here is regarding versatility.

A cleric is far more versatile than a swift hunter (scout/ranger) because of his spells. There's a spell for everything you may want to do.

But, damage wise, I have no clue as to where the cleric would stand (with bow attacks, mind you). How high can a cleric buff up his archery damage? A swift hunter can get something like 108d6+lots.

how do I get 108d6 on a swift hunter? 4 iterative attacks +1 rapid shot +1 haste (on weapon or self) *2 (splitting) = 12 attacks.

7d6 skirmish (taking improved skirmish) +2d6 using Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)

Can a Cleric match this using a bow? (The only way I know would be polymorphing into an arrow demon, but fluff-wise I think it's a bit lame to resort to this... but that's just my opinion)

[Eldariel]

As for the cleric idea: Why every single time someone calls for an archer build the answer is "play a cleric"? We all know that T1 classes do it better, but i don't see this trend when someone asks for a fighter build.

There's a few of reasons:
- Cleric Archers are one of the few ways to create an Archer whose damage doesn't fall off if using his weapon's range.
- Cleric Archers have the easiest access to a wide range of buffs that are particularly good for Archers (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Blessed Aim, etc.)
- Zen Archers are a thing unlike many other combinations so the whole feels pretty natural.
- The question was, indeed, for the best Archery build and far as the ease/power/versatility equation goes, Cleric is really high up there.


Warblade can be competitive but takes a while to get going, Swift Hunter can be competitive but only at short ranges and vs. FEs + enemies vulnerable to crits, and other martial archers rely on 3.0 material.

[Urpriest]

Since you're relatively new to this sort of thing and like the idea of moving around a lot, I'm going to throw in my support for a Swift Hunter build. It seems like the best way to get what you're going for. The problem with Cleric archers is that a lot of their power lies in picking the right spells, which is the sort of thing that takes a fair amount of knowledge/advice to master.

[Flickerdart]

Clerics get access to all of the tasty Ranger-only archery spells with a dip into Prestige Ranger, except they cast them at a better caster level and can persist them.

The most possible Skirmish damage is 8d6 per shot (using Unseen Seer to advance Skirmish, and Improved Skirmish). Since all the other stuff is something the Cleric can do as well (and a lot easier, because he can cast Haste himself, use GMW for cheaper bow, or use crafted items - I'm not even going to mention Arrowsplit). The assumption is pure Cleric - Shiba Protector, Prestige Ranger, all of that is just thick, luxurious icing on the already amazing cake. 8d6 per shot is just 28 on average, which is kind of crappy for 20th level.

The feat Holy Warrior adds up to +9 (up to the Cleric's highest memorized spell from the War domain - yes, it can go higher, but we won't cheese it). +3 comes from a Persisted Divine Favor spell, which we can persist even without DMM because it's only 1st level. The extra +3 to hit is channelled into the Energy Bow's pseudo-PA to make it into +3 damage while losing no accuracy, for a total of +15 so far. Persisted Good Hope gives +2 to damage, but also +2 to attack, which we can turn into damage for +19 so far. The +6 Strength from the Persisted Divine Power is another +3 damage, total +22. +4 Strength and a size increase comes from Righteous Might, giving a -1 size penalty on accuracy but a net +1 in total (thanks to the Strength) plus an additional +1d6 from the bow due to the size. Rounding down, the total is +26. Mastery of the Sky grants another +2 to hit and damage, for a total of +30.

And that's not using any muticlassing, and only three feats. And on top of all this, you're still a T1 caster.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Can a Cleric match this using a bow? (The only way I know would be polymorphing into an arrow demon, but fluff-wise I think it's a bit lame to resort to this... but that's just my opinion)The biggest of those effects are also available to the Cleric. What you're really looking at is whether it's possible for the Cleric to match the Swift Hunter's 7d6 (average 24.5) bonus skirmish damage.

Knowledge devotion + holy warrior + law devotion (power attacked with the bow) + persistent divine favor = +24 damage.

Then consider all the other crap Cleric can access with its spells, especially when it has divine metamagic persist on divine power, miracled bite of the werebear, algid enhancement, greater consumptive field, greater visage of the deity, righteous wrath of the faithful, righteous might and sadism.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Clerics get access to all of the tasty Ranger-only archery spells with a dip into Prestige Ranger, except they cast them at a better caster level and can persist them.

The most possible Skirmish damage is 8d6 per shot (using Unseen Seer to advance Skirmish, and Improved Skirmish). Since all the other stuff is something the Cleric can do as well (and a lot easier, because he can cast Haste himself, use GMW for cheaper bow, or use crafted items - I'm not even going to mention Arrowsplit). The assumption is pure Cleric - Shiba Protector, Prestige Ranger, all of that is just thick, luxurious icing on the already amazing cake. 8d6 per shot is just 28 on average, which is kind of crappy for 20th level.

The feat Holy Warrior adds up to +9 (up to the Cleric's highest memorized spell from the Force domain - yes, it can go higher, but we won't cheese it). +3 comes from a Persisted Divine Favor spell, which we can persist even without DMM because it's only 1st level. The extra +3 to hit is channelled into the Energy Bow's pseudo-PA to make it into +3 damage while losing no accuracy, for a total of +15 so far. Persisted Good Hope gives +2 to damage, but also +2 to attack, which we can turn into damage for +19 so far. The +6 Strength from the Persisted Divine Power is another +3 damage, total +22. +4 Strength and a size increase comes from Righteous Might, giving a -1 size penalty on accuracy but a net +1 in total (thanks to the Strength) plus an additional +1d6 from the bow due to the size. Rounding down, the total is +26. Mastery of the Sky grants another +2 to hit and damage, for a total of +30.

And that's not using any muticlassing, and only three feats. And on top of all this, you're still a T1 caster.

Slight nitpick, Holy Warrior is keyed of the War domain, not force. A good trick with it is taking the spontaneous domain ACF (PHBII) which means as long as you have 1 spell prepared of the highest level you can cast you get the bonus.

[Flickerdart]

Derp, fixed. I don't think there's even such a thing as Force domain.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually it does exists, iy is from the spell compendium and has some nice non-cleric spells:
Mage armour, Magic Missile (as a level 2 spell though), Blast of Force, Resilient Sphere, Wall of force, Repulsion, Forcecage, Telekinetic Sphere and Crushing Hand.

[Yuukale]

Considering the prestige classes available to clerics, wouldn't it be more interesting to build a Cleric archer with a couple of wizard levels and join them with some kind of Theurge?

Adding wizard spells would perhaps bring a huge new arsenal to the table on behalf of this archer. His feats would still be DMM and Persist.

This said, what do you think? What is the optimal theurgy to this guy?

[Flickerdart]

I wouldn't bother with theurgy. Clerics get more than enough buffs, and DMM only works on divine spells anyhow.

[Yuukale]

I was just trying to find out ways to fill the levels with something else.

By the way, besides nightstick, do we have other means to increase the number of "turn undead" attempts?

[Flickerdart]

That's where PrCing comes in. The most pro Clericzillas draw from multiple TU pools - the more, the merrier - and then use Extra Turning to pump them all mightily.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Be a neutral cleric who rebukes undead and then use the Destroy Undead ACF from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (it specifically can fuel things that need turn undead attempts), dip a level of either Dread Necromancer or Death Delver to regain your Rebuke attempts, dip sacred exorcist to get turn undead. A single instance of Extra Turning would net you 12 attempts. Even without counting the bonus you get from Cha that single handed gets you enough attempts to persist 3 spells. Add a single nightstick and you'd probably have enough for another persisted spell.