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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Whip 'em to death - New feats, substitution levels, weapons etc for whip



CinuzIta
2013-01-13, 09:03 AM
Hello everyone!

Lately I've been thinking about d&d's whips. As they are, we all know they're pretty much useless and that using the spiked chain is a much better idea. But I'm still convinced that whips are so much flavourful than spiked chains.
So, I've created a new kind of weapon - the Hooked Whip - to have a weapon that is at least decent if compared to the chain. Here it is:

Suggestions
Whip
The classical whip. I suggest to move it from the Exotic Weapons group to the Martial Weapons group. Nothing that would break the game.
For semplicity's sake, all of the contents presented below are not taking in account these suggestion, so that you can see how they work with the normal rules.

Whips' mighty versions
Forget it, just let the whips use the characters' Str modifier.

Weapons

Hooked Whip
Exotic Weapon
Damage: 1d8 (1d6)
Critic: 19-20/x2
Reach: 15 feet
It has the same qualities of the normal whip, except that an hooked whip still damage an armoured foe and it also menace the enemies in the weapon's reach.
A mighty version of these whip can obviously be created in order to use the character Strenght modifier. Moreover, since the hooks on the whip are made of metal, special materials (such as adamant, mithral etc) can be used to improve them.
Just like Whip Dagger, a character proficient with Whip is also proficient with the Hooked Whip.


Feats

Flayer
Prerequisite: BaB +1, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whips).
Effect: attacking with a whip when adjacent to a foe doesn't provoke attack of opportunity any more.Moreover you threaten the enemies 15 feet far from you when you're using a whip, as with a normal reach weapon.

Vexing Foe
Prerequisite: BaB +5, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whips), Flayer.
Effect: You threaten all the enemies in your threatened area, not only those enemies 15 feet far from you.

Whip Mastery
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Sleight of Hand 4 ranks, Bab +8, Weapon Focus (Any whip), Flayer.
You've mastered a wide array of combat maneuvers with the whip. You're now able to effectively use these three combat maneuvers:
Longa Manus
Effect: once per round, when the character hit an enemy with his whip, he can start a grapple check with the enemy. If the enemy fail the check, he is considered immobilzed by the character. The enemy can try to get free by winning an opposed grapple [or Escape Artist] check at the beginning of each one of his turns.
Bloody Spin
Effect: with a standard action, the character can set free a foe blocked by Longa Manus. By doing so, the character pull back his whip causing the hooks to cause great pain to his enemy. The character inflicts the normal whip's damage to the enemy. If the enemy fails a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10+damage dealt) then the damage is doubled. This stacks with a critical hit.
Special: Bloody Spin can be used only with the Whip Dagger or with the Hooked Whip.
The Hangman
Effect: if you succeed to hit the enemy with these aimed attack, you grasp his throat causing swift suffocation. The target can attempt to resist this maneuver's effects with a Fortitude save (DC 10+Character's BaB+Dex). If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target's next turn, he is considered fatigued for 4+1d6 rounds. One round later, he is reduced to 0 hit points. One round later, the target fell unconscious. Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation. The enemy can try a Grapple or Escape Artist check at the beginning of every round to try to escape the whip's grasp; if he succeeds, he is staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath. This special maneuver only affects living creatures that must breathe and is considered a Full Round Action.

Whip the Ground
Prerequisite: BaB+1, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any whip).
Effect: while you sling your whip, you fiercely whip the ground as a move equivalent action. Every foe in 60 feet that can see you must succeed on a Will saving throw (DC 15+Dex) or become shaken for 1d3 rounds. An enemy who succeed in his saving throw cannot be affected by this effect for 24 hours. This is a mind affecting ability.

Guiding Whip
Prerequisite: BaB +3, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any whip).
Effect: the character can aim, with a standard action, to a single limb of an enemy. On a successfull hit, the character can use his whip to pull the enemy by the limb, forcing him to move. The enemy has to move in a direction decided by the character (he can't force the enemy to move back) at half his speed. On the next enemy's turn, his move action will be considered already done. The enemy can avoid to be grasped with a successfull Reflex saving throw (DC 15 + BaB)

Make Them Bleed
Prerequisite: BaB +9, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Whip), Flayer, Combat Reflexes.
Effect: As a standard action, you can make a single attack against one enemy. If the attack roll is successful, you deal damage normally but the enemy also start suffering bleed damage equals to 3+1 per any Whip Feats you possess (including these one). The bleed damage ignore damage reductions.
The Whip Feats are: Flayer, Vexing Foe, Whip Mastery, Whip the Ground, Guiding Whip, Make Them Bleed, Weapon Focus (Any Whip), Improved Weapon Focus (Any Whip), Weapon Specialization (Any Whip), Improved Weapon Specialization (Any Whip).


Substitution Levels

DROW FIGHTER

Whip Focus (Ex)
Level: 2
Replaces: 2nd level's Fighter bonus feat
Benefit: Upon selecting this feat, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with whips. This bonus does not stack with the bonus provided by Weapon Focus, but is treated as the equivalent of Weapon Focus for purpose of qualyfing for feats, prestige classes, and so on that requires the feat.

Whirling Defense (Ex)
Level: 6
Replaces: 6th level's Fighter bonus feat
Benefit: Now that you have learned how to efficiently use a whip to fight, you know how to defend yourself effectively on all sides, swinging your whip all around you and forcing your enemies to move carefully. All enemies in your threatened area are forced to move at half their normal speed. You may use this ability even though you do not normally threaten squares with a whip. An enemy who succeed on a Reflex saving throw (DC 10+BaB+Dex) is not affected from these special ability for the current round (but if in the next round he still is in the threatened area, he has to repeat the saving throw).


Prestige Class

Lasher

Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Sleight of Hands 4 ranks, Use Rope 2 ranks
Feats: Weapon Focus (Any whip) , Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any whip), Flayer, Combat Reflexes.
Special: The lasher must own a whip, an hooked whip or whip dagger. Usually, a lasher owns a whip and an hooked whip or a whip dagger (or, if wealthy enough, the mighty versions of those weapons).

d10
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Vexing Foe, Third Hand

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Crack of Fate

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Deadly Whip, Stunning Snap

4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Crack of Doom

5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Death Spiral, Opportunist

[/table]
Skill Points: 4+Int. Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Spot (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).

Vexing Foe (Ex): You threaten all the enemies in your threatened area, not only those enemies 15 feet far from you.

Third Hand (Ex): At 1st level, a Lasher's precision with the whips allows her to use them like a third hand—a third hand at the end of a flexible 15-foot-long arm—as a standard action. Depositing a lashed object into your hand is a move-equivalent action. Note: A lasher generally uses a normal whip to perform abilities granted by third hand, because a whip dagger or an hooked whip deals its damage to the object or individual grasped, while a regular whip does not. Sometimes, this is not a problem, especially if the item grasped has hardness, but other times inflicting damage by using third hand is a bad idea. Thus, most lashers carry two whips. A lasher successfully performs a task if her attack roll equals or exceeds the DC for a given task:

- Punch a button, snuff a candle flame, flick a coin lying along the ground, etc. as a move-equivalent action. Range 15 feet, DC 15.
Retrieve an unattended object of up to 20 pounds, and deposit into your off hand as a move-equivalent action. Range 15 feet, DC 20.

- Firmly wrap the end of your whip around a pole, spike, or other likely projection up to 15 feet away as a move-equivalent action. The DC is 22. If used to wrap around a projection at the top of a wall, reduce the DC to climb the wall by 5. If the point of attachment is optimal on a ceiling fixture, you could swing over a chasm of up to 25 feet wide. You can also wrap items heavier than 20 pounds, but you cannot automatically flick them into your off hand (but you could drag them). You can unwrap the end of your whip from the entangled object as a free action.

- When the victim of a precipitous fall, you can give up your Reflex save in an attempt to use your whip to snag a likely projection, pillar, rafter, etc., within 15 feet of the edge of the pit, cliff, bridge, etc. Generally, an unattached item (such as a statue, table, etc.) must weight twice as much as you for you to arrest your fall, otherwise you merely pull it after you). You may attempt to snag a friend or foe standing near the edge of the precipice as you fall. You make a ranged touch attack against another creature's AC (the friend does not apply his Dexterity bonus while an unwilling friend or a foe applies their Dexterity modifier to AC), If you hit, you wrap your whip around the target, who must make a successful Strength check against DC 20 to arrest both you and himself. An unsuccessful Strength check sends both you and your target into the precipice. You can unwrap the end of your whip from the entangled object as a free action.

Crack of Fate (Ex): At 2nd level, a Lasher can take one extra attack per round with a whip, an hooked whip or whip dagger. The attack is made with the Lasher's highest base attack bonus, but every attack in that round suffers a —2 penalty. The lasher must use the full attack action to use Crack of Fate.

Deadly Whip (Ex): At 3rd level, the Lasher is very skilled in swinging the whip, and can now add his Dexterity modifier to any whip's damage rolls.

Stunning Snap (Ex): At 3rd level, a Lasher can use a whip, an hooked whip or whip dagger to stun a creature instead of inflicting subdual or normal damage. The Lasher can use this ability once per round, but no more than once per level per day. The Lasher must declare she is using a stun attack before making an attack roll. (A missed attack roll ruins the attempt.) A foe struck by a whip, hooked whip or whip dagger must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + the lasher's level + Strength modifier), in addition to receiving normal damage (subdual or standard). If the saving throw fails, the opponent is stunned for one round. A stunned character cannot act and loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, while attackers get a +2 bonus on attack rolls against a stunned opponent. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned by the lasher's stunning attack.

Crack of Doom (Ex): At 4th level, a Lasher can take two extra attacks per round with a whip, hooked whip or whip dagger. This ability supersedes Crack of Fate (the abilities do not stack). The attack is at the Lasher's highest base attack bonus, but each attack (the extra one and normal ones) suffers a —4 penalty. The lasher must use the full attack action to use Crack of Doom.

Death Spiral (Sup): At 5th level, the Lasher gains transcendental understanding of her whip, hooked whip or whip dagger. Once per day, she can spin the whip over her head with supernatural speed. All foes within a 15-foot radius of the Lasher must make a Reflex save against a DC equal to the Lasher's attack roll. Opponents who fail are stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. Stunned opponents must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 18) or become helpless for 1d4—1 rounds (minimum 1 round). Allies (as selected by the lasher) in range are spared the effects of the death spiral. The Death Spiral is a supernatural ability.

Opportunist (Ex): At 5th level, once per round the Lasher can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the Lasher’s attack of opportunity for that round against that creature: even a Lasher with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.


So? What are your thoughts? Suggestions? New ideas? Critics?

Zireael
2013-01-13, 09:09 AM
I like the hooked whip and the flayer feat.

ArcturusV
2013-01-13, 09:17 AM
I like the weapon, I like the feats. I just wish there were more to build it into a proper Fighter Chain Feat sort of deal. Well, an extended one that you might take a real go at. I want to be able to go all Simon Belmont on some monsters now, yes, you're inspiring me to play something with this. So take that as a good sign.

Include some like a Whip Feat suitable at level 2, which has something like "If you make a critical hit you may make an Intimidate Check, resisted by their Will Saving Throw. If the Check is successful, the enemy is shaken for 2 rounds, otherwise the enemy is shaken for one round."

Maybe squeeze another one in there to chain off it like "If you make a critical hit, you may drive the target 5 feet away from you" at a BAB requirement of 12 or so.

Just some thoughts. Looking forward to more.

CinuzIta
2013-01-13, 11:04 AM
first of all, thanks for the compliments and the suggestions. Moreover, Arcturus also gave me some good ideas. What about something like this:

Whip the ground
Prerequisite: bab+1, exotic weapon proficiency (any whip)
Effect: while you sling your whip, you fiercely whip the ground as a move action. Every foe in 60 meters that can see you must succeed on a Will saving throw (cd 15+Cha) or become shaken for 1d3 rounds. An enemy who succeed in his saving throw cannot be affected by this effect for 24 hours. This is a mind affecting ability.

The Hangman
Prerequiste: bab +12, exotic weapon proficiency (any whip), flayer, longa manus
Effect: if you succeed to hit the enemy with these aimed attack, you grasp his throat. If your enemy doesn't win an opposed grapple check, he starts to choke. He must do a Constitution check every round to avoid choking, with a stacking malus of -2 every new round (-3 if you're using an hooked whip). On the first round he fails his Constitution check, the enemy lose his breath and is considered fatigued. On the second round he doesn't pass his Constitution check he drop to 0 hp and on the last round in wich he loses the check he fell unconscious. He can try to get free at the start of his rounds with a grapple or escape artist check.

Guiding Whip
Prerequisite: bab +3, exotic weapon proficiency (any whip)
Effect: the character can aim, with a complete action, to a single limb of an enemy. On a successfull hit, the character can use his whip to pull the enemy by the limb, forcing him to move or fall prone. The enemy has to move in a direction decided by the character (he can't move back) at half his speed. On the next enemy's turn, his move action will be considered already done. The enemy can avoid to be grasped with a successfull Reflex saving throw (dc 15 + 1/2 of the character melee modifier)

Deadly Whip
Prerequisite: bab +6, exotic weapon proficiency (any whip), flayer
Effect: the character can add half of his Dexterity modifier to any whip's damage rolls.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-13, 11:33 AM
In all seriousness, this looks very interesting and I like what you've done here...but, I couldn't in good conscious not post this meme.

Fun fact, as of this posting the dollar to peso amount is actually correct

That's it. I'm sick of all this "excellent trip weapon" bull that's going on in the d20 system right now. Whips deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine whip in Mexico for 2,400,000 pesos (that's $189,751.82) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my whip.

Expert whip-makers spend years working on a single whip and slaughter up to a million cows to produce the finest leather known to mankind.

Whips are thrice as good as khopeshes for tripping and thrice as good at dealing damage, too. Anything a khopesh can trip, a whip can trip better. I'm pretty sure a whip could easily trip even a gelanitous cube.

Ever wonder why the United States never bothered conquering Mexico? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Mexican and their whips of pratfalling. Even in Indiana Jones, the American uses the Mexican fighting whip first and foremost because he fears and respects it.

So what am I saying? Whips are simply the best weapon that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for whips:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
+4 to trip attempts
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
+8 to trip attempts
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the tripping power of whips in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = whips need to be better at tripping in d20, see my new stat block.

CinuzIta
2013-01-13, 12:35 PM
Well, Rogue Shadows, I surely see your point, but aren't those stats a bit overpowered? I mean, not only the one handed whip deals 1d12 of damage, but it also has critical menace on 19-20 on a x4 multiplier! Not counting the +2 to hit and damage. It seems quite too much.

Anyway, I've updated the first post with all the new feats and even with a new, Improved version of Deadly Whip feat.

Maybe I'll create even a PrC... :smallconfused:

Tanuki Tales
2013-01-13, 12:41 PM
Well, Rogue Shadows, I surely see your point, but aren't those stats a bit overpowered? I mean, not only the one handed whip deals 1d12 of damage, but it also has critical menace on 19-20 on a x4 multiplier! Not counting the +2 to hit and damage. It seems quite too much.


I'm pretty sure he's making a Katana joke.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-13, 12:42 PM
Well, Rogue Shadows, I surely see your point, but aren't those stats a bit overpowered? I mean, not only the one handed whip deals 1d12 of damage, but it also has critical menace on 19-20 on a x4 multiplier! Not counting the +2 to hit and damage. It seems quite too much.

:smallfrown:

Katanas are Underpowered in d20 (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20).

This is why I don't often make with the jokes...

CinuzIta
2013-01-13, 12:45 PM
...

My bad! I've never heard of this Katana Joke so I thought you were serious! Ahah :smallbiggrin:

Edit - now you're spoiler make sense to me!

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-13, 01:27 PM
...

My bad! I've never heard of this Katana Joke so I thought you were serious! Ahah :smallbiggrin:

Edit - now you're spoiler make sense to me!


Here's the original, preserved for posterity. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20)

bobthe6th
2013-01-13, 01:56 PM
ok I like what you did with the whip. Now it is a interesting exotic weapon on par with the spiked chain(why are all the worthwhile exotic weapons impossible or a bad idea?).

The feats are interesting, but should either be made more general or made into a couple tactical feats. Like a chain of three feats that grant stuff.

Also, I would say just give them full dex to damage at Deadly whip. They have spent three feats on it, it isn't overpowered.

CinuzIta
2013-01-13, 03:03 PM
ok I like what you did with the whip. Now it is a interesting exotic weapon on par with the spiked chain(why are all the worthwhile exotic weapons impossible or a bad idea?).

The feats are interesting, but should either be made more general or made into a couple tactical feats. Like a chain of three feats that grant stuff.

Also, I would say just give them full dex to damage at Deadly whip. They have spent three feats on it, it isn't overpowered.

I agree about Deadly Whip, dividing it in 4 feats would become too much expensive.

Personally, I don't like tactical feats that much, because they always seemed to be an expensive mix of either bad and good maneuvers. But on the other hand, effectively, it is more expensive to take all of the feats then to fulfill the tactical feat prerequisite. So what about this:

Whip Master
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Sleight of Hand 4 ranks, Bab +8, Weapon Focus (Any whip), Flayer.

You've mastered a wide array of combat maneuvers with the whip. You're now able to effectively use these three combat maneuvers:

Longa Manus
Effect: once per round, when the character hit an enemy with his whip, he can start a grapple check with the enemy. If the enemy fail the check, he is considered to be in a grapple with the character. If the character is using an Hooked Whip, then it deals 5 points of bleeding damage to the grappled enemy each round he remain grappled. The enemy can get free by winning an opposed grapple [or Escape Artist] check.

Bloody Spin
Effect: with a standard action, the character can set free a foe blocked by Longa Manus. By doing so, the character pull back his whip causing the hooks to cause great pain to his enemy. The character inflicts the normal whip's damage to the enemy. If the enemy fails a Fortitude saving throw (dc 10+damage dealt) then the damage is doubled. This stacks with a critical hit.

The Hangman
Effect: if you succeed to hit the enemy with these aimed attack, you grasp his throat. If your enemy doesn't win an opposed grapple check, he starts to choke. He must do a Constitution check every round to avoid choking, with a stacking malus of -2 every new round (-3 if you're using an hooked whip). On the first round he fails his Constitution check, the enemy lose his breath and is considered fatigued. On the second round he doesn't pass his Constitution check he drop to 0 hp and on the last round in wich he loses the check he fell unconscious. He can try to get free at the start of his rounds with a grapple or escape artist check.

----

Also, since I've seen some Drows using whips, here there are two more Drow Fighter substitution levels. I'm okay with the Hit-And-Run Tactics official substitution level, so I'll leave it as the first level.

DROW FIGHTER

Whip Focus (Ex)
Level: 2
Replaces: 2nd level's Fighter bonus feat
Benefit: Upon selecting this feat, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with whips. This bonus does not stack with the bonus provided by Weapon Focus, but is treated as the equivalent of Weapon Focus for purpose of qualyfing for feats, prestige classes, and so on that requires the feat.

Whirling Defense (Ex)
Level: 6
Replaces: 6th level's Fighter bonus feat
Benefit: Now that you have learned how to efficiently use a whip to fight, you know how to defend yourself effectively on all sides, swinging your whip all around you and forcing your enemies to move carefully. All enemies in your threatened area are forced to move at half their normal speed.

bobthe6th
2013-01-13, 03:10 PM
problem... the whip doesn't threaten.
Would be better to give it a threaten reach out to its normal reach minus adjacent as the 6th level feat or some thing.

perhapce hand out a 5ft threaten reach with flayer, then add a feat that extends it to full normal reach.

CinuzIta
2013-01-13, 03:19 PM
You got a point! Mh, I don't think I'm gonna put it as the Drow Substitution level, as I really think that everyone should be able to threaten with the whip. So:

Flayer:
Prerequisite: bab +1, Exotic Weapon Proficiency [any whip].
Effect: Attacking with a whip when adjacent to a foe doesn't provoke attack of opportunity any more. Moreover you threaten the enemies 15 feet far from you when you're using a whip, as with a normal reach weapon.

Vexing Foe:
Prerequisite: BaB +5, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any whip), Flayer.
Effect: You threaten all the enemies in your threatened area, not only those enemies 15 feet far from you.

Also, what do you think about the Drows' substitution levels and about the tactical feat's prerequisite?

Edit - First post updated with new version of Deadly Whip and Flayer feats. Added also Vexing Foe.

bobthe6th
2013-01-13, 03:55 PM
well it has a feat tax(weapon focus), a hidden feat tax(EWP), and a decent feat(flayer). The skills are low enough not to be an issue, and the BAB requirement is nice and high.

You should note for the grapple portion that the whip user isn't considered grappled...

What is the DC on the hangman? why not make it a fort save versus DC 10+1/2 BAB+the users dex or strength modifier?

CinuzIta
2013-01-13, 04:05 PM
Whoops, I forgot The Hangman's DC. Well 10+ 1/2 BaB + Str looks good to me!

Well, I don't know what else could be done to make whips more interesting. Any idea out there? :smallsmile:

genericwit
2013-01-13, 04:11 PM
There's always the whip dagger from the 3.O Arms and Equipment Guide which does 1d6 damage lethal and can do damage to armored/natural armored foes and is basically everything the normal whip is. It's exotic, but so is the whip. I think there's also a whip-based prestige class in sword and fist that you might want to check out, though I forget what it's called, that has some fun stuff for whips that you might be able to port into 3.5 feats.

CinuzIta
2013-01-13, 04:23 PM
Aye, I've checked both the weapon and the prc. Actually, without noticing it, I've already ported some of the PrC's special abilities as Feats. What I could add would be the ability to take small objects with the whip and so on, but I'd like to leave the Prc some edge, otherwise it would become a useless Prc (even tough it is from 3.0 I think it could be used in 3.5 without much problem) :smallsmile:

As you said there is the whip dagger from that manual [it is also present in Sword and Fist], but I don't think I'll focus too much on specific weapons.

Maybe I could create another weapon, some kind of flail, but I'd like to have suggestions about it, cause I don't really know how I could make it different from a normal whip (bleeding and exagerated critical multiplier maybe?)

I'm also creating a prc. Actually, it isn't anything new: it's the Lasher prc from Sword and Fist, but in 5 levels and maybe with another special ability. Any suggestion on a good cap ability?

CinuzIta
2013-01-14, 03:13 PM
This is the Lasher from Sword and Fist, reworked by me.

Lasher

Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Sleight of Hands 4 ranks, Use Rope 2 ranks
Feats: Weapon Focus (Any whip) , Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any whip), Flayer, Combat Reflexes.
Special: The lasher must own a whip, an hooked whip or whip dagger. Usually, a lasher owns a whip and an hooked whip or a whip dagger (or, if wealthy enough, the mighty versions of those weapons).

d10
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Superior Weapon Focus, Third Hand

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Crack of Fate

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Lashing Whip, Stunning Snap

4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Crack of Doom

5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Death Spiral, Opportunist

[/table]
Skill Points: 4+Int. Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Spot (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).

Superior Weapon Focus (Ex): Stacking on top of any existing Weapon Focus bonus, this ability grants a Lasher an additional +1 to attack rolls with any whip he has Weapon Focus with.

Third Hand (Ex): At 1st level, a Lasher's precision with the whips allows her to use them like a third hand—a third hand at the end of a flexible 15-foot-long arm—as a standard action. Depositing a lashed object into your hand is a move-equivalent action. Note: A lasher generally uses a normal whip to perform abilities granted by third hand, because a whip dagger or an hooked whip deals its damage to the object or individual grasped, while a regular whip does not. Sometimes, this is not a problem, especially if the item grasped has hardness, but other times inflicting damage by using third hand is a bad idea. Thus, most lashers carry two whips. A lasher successfully performs a task if her attack roll equals or exceeds the DC for a given task:

- Punch a button, snuff a candle flame, flick a coin lying along the ground, etc. as a move-equivalent action. Range 15 feet, DC 15.
Retrieve an unattended object of up to 20 pounds, and deposit into your off hand as a move-equivalent action. Range 15 feet, DC 20.

- Firmly wrap the end of your whip around a pole, spike, or other likely projection up to 15 feet away as a move-equivalent action. The DC is 22. If used to wrap around a projection at the top of a wall, reduce the DC to climb the wall by 5. If the point of attachment is optimal on a ceiling fixture, you could swing over a chasm of up to 25 feet wide. You can also wrap items heavier than 20 pounds, but you cannot automatically flick them into your off hand (but you could drag them). You can unwrap the end of your whip from the entangled object as a free action.

- When the victim of a precipitous fall, you can give up your Reflex save in an attempt to use your whip to snag a likely projection, pillar, rafter, etc., within 15 feet of the edge of the pit, cliff, bridge, etc. Generally, an unattached item (such as a statue, table, etc.) must weight twice as much as you for you to arrest your fall, otherwise you merely pull it after you). You may attempt to snag a friend or foe standing near the edge of the precipice as you fall. You make a ranged touch attack against another creature's AC (the friend does not apply his Dexterity bonus while an unwilling friend or a foe applies their Dexterity modifier to AC), If you hit, you wrap your whip around the target, who must make a successful Strength check against DC 20 to arrest both you and himself. An unsuccessful Strength check sends both you and your target into the precipice. You can unwrap the end of your whip from the entangled object as a free action.

Crack of Fate (Ex): At 2nd level, a Lasher can take one extra attack per round with a whip, an hooked whip or whip dagger. The attack is made with the Lasher's highest base attack bonus, but every attack in that round suffers a —2 penalty. The lasher must use the full attack action to use Crack of Fate.

Lashing Whip (Ex): At 3rd level, the Lasher adds a +2 damage bonus to her whip, hooked whip and whip dagger. If using a whip, she adds +2 subdual damage or +2 regular damage, at her option. If the Lasher has already gained Weapon Specialization from another class (Fighter, for example), the damage bonus stacks.

Stunning Snap (Ex): At 3rd level, a Lasher can use a whip, an hooked whip or whip dagger to stun a creature instead of inflicting subdual or normal damage. The Lasher can use this ability once per round, but no more than once per level per day. The Lasher must declare she is using a stun attack before making an attack roll. (A missed attack roll ruins the attempt.) A foe struck by a whip, hooked whip or whip dagger must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + the lasher's level + Strength modifier), in addition to receiving normal damage (subdual or standard). If the saving throw fails, the opponent is stunned for one round. A stunned character cannot act and loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, while attackers get a +2 bonus on attack rolls against a stunned opponent. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned by the lasher's stunning attack.

Crack of Doom (Ex): At 4th level, a Lasher can take two extra attacks per round with a whip, hooked whip or whip dagger. This ability supersedes Crack of Fate (the abilities do not stack). The attack is at the Lasher's highest base attack bonus, but each attack (the extra one and normal ones) suffers a —4 penalty. The lasher must use the full attack action to use Crack of Doom.

Death Spiral (Sup): At 5th level, the Lasher gains transcendental understanding of her whip, hooked whip or whip dagger. Once per day, she can spin the whip over her head with supernatural speed. All foes within a 15-foot radius of the Lasher must make a Reflex save against a DC equal to the Lasher's attack roll. Opponents who fail are stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. Stunned opponents must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 18) or become helpless for 1d4—1 rounds (minimum 1 round). Allies (as selected by the lasher) in range are spared the effects of the death spiral. The Death Spiral is a supernatural ability.

Opportunist (Ex): At 5th level, once per round the Lasher can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the Lasher’s attack of opportunity for that round against that creature: even a Lasher with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.


So? Opinions, comments?


Edit - forgot to add another feat. This one is called:

Make Them Bleed
Prerequisite: BaB +9, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Whip), Flayer, Combat Reflexes.
Effect: As a standard action, you can make a single attack against one enemy. If the attack roll is successful, you deal damage normally but the enemy also start suffering bleed damage equals to 2+1 per any Whip Feats you possess (including these one).
The Whip Feats are: Flayer, Vexing Foe, Whip Master, Whip the Ground, Guiding Whip, Deadly Whip, Make Them Bleed, Weapon Specialization (Any Whip).

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-14, 03:16 PM
Technically speaking, you don't threaten any squares with a whip. I understand the intent, but the RAW is contradictory.

CinuzIta
2013-01-14, 03:20 PM
Technically speaking, you don't threaten any squares with a whip. I understand the intent, but the RAW is contradictory.

Look at the main post, I've created two feats to fix that.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-01-14, 03:28 PM
I know, but since neither is required for the Sub level, it just becomes a feat tax to even USE the ability.

I'd add the following to the description: "You may use this ability even though you do not normally threaten squares with a whip"

CinuzIta
2013-01-14, 03:40 PM
I know, but since neither is required for the Sub level, it just becomes a feat tax to even USE the ability.

I'd add the following to the description: "You may use this ability even though you do not normally threaten squares with a whip"

Oh you were talking about the substitution level! You're right, I missed that, thank you for the suggestion! :)

TiaC
2013-01-17, 11:19 PM
When a problem comes along
You must whip it
Before the cream sets out too long
You must whip it
When something's goin' wrong
You must whip it


Crack that whip
Give the past a slip
Step on a crack
Break your momma's back

When a problem comes along
You must whip it
Before the cream sets out too long
You must whip it
When something's goin' wrong
You must whip it

Now whip it
Into shape
Shape it up
Get straight
Go forward
Move ahead
Try to detect it
It's not too late
To whip it
Whip it good

When a good time turns around
You must whip it
You will never live it down
Unless you whip it
No one gets away
Until they whip it

I say whip it
Whip it good
I say whip it
Whip it good

Crack that whip
Give the past a slip
Step on a crack
Break your momma's back

When a problem comes along
You must whip it
Before the cream sets out too long
You must whip it
When something's goin' wrong
You must whip it

Now whip it
Into shape
Shape it up
Get straight
Go forward
Move ahead
Try to detect it
It's not too late
To whip it
Into shape
Shape it up
Get straight
Go forward
Move ahead
Try to detect it
It's not too late
To whip it
Well, whip it good
DEVO - WHIP IT LYRICS
This is good work.
(I assume the hooked whip is exotic?)
Also, Longa Manus is confusing if they try moving the grapple. Maybe allow auto escape as a full round action?

CinuzIta
2013-01-18, 02:43 AM
yes it's an exotic weapon! I don't get what you do intend by confusing..that feat works the same way the monsters' ability "improved grab" do: you get hit by a tail or a tentacle (in this case, a whip), the enemy can immediatly start a grapple check, if he wins you're in a grapple with him

sengmeng
2013-01-18, 11:44 PM
I'd just houserule it as a martial weapon and call it a day. It lets you do a couple cool things, but it doesn't threaten and can't hurt armored people. Sucks if you have to sink an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat into it, but if you just had to have martial weapon proficiency and you wanted to trip someone while making sure they can't reach you, it's awesome.

CinuzIta
2013-01-19, 04:27 AM
the whip will remain an exotic weapon and I'll tell you why: first of all it's not such a common weapon, so it's by definition an exotic weapon. Moreover, I highly doubt that you, me or anyone else could use efficiently a whip with something like 20-30 hooks on all its lenght without getting seriously wounded. It is a weapon that requires some special training on it, so i'd logically put it in exotic category.

Anyway, this whip deals damage to armoured foes, as it's specified in its description..

TiaC
2013-01-19, 05:20 AM
yes it's an exotic weapon! I don't get what you do intend by confusing..that feat works the same way the monsters' ability "improved grab" do: you get hit by a tail or a tentacle (in this case, a whip), the enemy can immediatly start a grapple check, if he wins you're in a grapple with him

What's confusing is that grappling is usually reciprocal, but this is not as the whip user is not considered grappled.

CinuzIta
2013-01-19, 07:39 AM
I see..now that I think at it, I could easely change "grappled" with "immobilised"..the effect of the feat would be the same, and it would less confusing..escaping from the whip would require a dex or an escape artist's check! Does it looks good?

sengmeng
2013-01-19, 11:37 AM
the whip will remain an exotic weapon and I'll tell you why: first of all it's not such a common weapon, so it's by definition an exotic weapon. Moreover, I highly doubt that you, me or anyone else could use efficiently a whip with something like 20-30 hooks on all its lenght without getting seriously wounded. It is a weapon that requires some special training on it, so i'd logically put it in exotic category.

Anyway, this whip deals damage to armoured foes, as it's specified in its description..

I meant the normal whip. It is a bit difficult to get that snapping motion down, but using a sword effectively isn't simple either.

CinuzIta
2013-01-19, 02:44 PM
I meant the normal whip. It is a bit difficult to get that snapping motion down, but using a sword effectively isn't simple either.

Mmh, you know? I was thinking at making the the normal whip a martial weapon either...but what I do here is just presenting some new options, feats etc to players and DMs...so the choice of whether making it a martial weapon or not it's up to them! I agree with you anyway in saying that the normal whip should be a martial weapon.

ArcturusV
2013-01-19, 02:58 PM
If I added the options for the feats, I'd probably make the whip a Martial Weapon. We already have it bad enough with "feat taxes" on other things. And it's not like the whip itself is such a horrendously OP weapon that the game will be broken by having a Paladin who can Whip Smite.

CinuzIta
2013-01-19, 03:07 PM
Of course, as I said I agree in saying that a whip could easily be a martial weapon without any trouble..

I guess I could post it as a tip on the main post

Cieyrin
2013-01-20, 03:34 PM
These are alright, though I don't quite get why we need a Hooked Whip when the Whip Dagger works that position quite well as-is. Especially given to be proficient with the Hooked Whip, you have to spend an additional feat, whereas the Whip Dagger allows you to wield one if you're proficient with whips already. I also think keeping the Mighty clause is a stupid tax to maintain if we're to improve whips, especially as a melee weapon. Just let them use their Strength like any other melee weapon.

I also don't think you've done a service to Lasher beyond shortening it to 5 levels, as you lost Close Combat, Wound and Whip Lash and made them feats, so you've made it harder to be good with your weapon of choice. Except for Wound, which hasn't been replaced at all, so you force a prospective whip wielder to use a different weapon entirely to deal with armored foes, which are common. We could also improve Stunning Snap and Death Spiral by making them Dex-based for the DC and make them less MAD, especially given I suspect many whip wielders will be finessing them. Not to mention that Death Spiral has never been terribly clear on when you're to make that attack roll, nevermind it being once per day for inexplicable reasons. We could also improve things by removing Superior Weapon Focus and Lashing Whip and putting some of these whip feats in there instead. Whips are about control, not damage. Put Deadly Whip in Lashing Whip's place, grant Vexing Foe instead of Superior Weapon Focus. Bam, now it's got power and utility, not just bonuses.

Whip the Ground covers a huge area, given most effects hit 30' or less, your's does ~180', if we convert from metric. Also adds MAD by requiring Charisma and being kinda fixed with the DC. Consolidate to Dex or Str, preferably Dex. Whip Mastery, Guiding Whip and Make Them Bleed need some revision as well, not to mention Whipping Defense, as they use terms that don't exist in-game, plus that bleed damage is out of hand compared to Arterial Strike. Whipping Defense needs a DC to resist as opposed to 'I threaten you with my length of leather that may or may not be able to damage you b/c you chose to wear more than a shirt! Slow Down!'. Probably Will based on Dex, as higher Dex means more coverage and faster.

Complete Actions I can only assume are supposed to be Full Round Actions, and the DC for Guiding Whip could just be standardized to 10+BAB+Dex mod, which keeps it dynamic and useful. Also, it says they have to move at half their speed or fall prone but never covers how you take them down, which seems like a weak substitute for Trip, which whips are good at as-is. I'd remove the mention or reduce to Standard action, as combat maneuvers aren't slow by any means. I don't see a reason to cost them an action, if they want to go somewhere else, they'll spend that Move to go elsewhere.

For Whip Mastery, yeesh. Let's see, I'd state for Longus Manus that the grapple is a free action and that you can't use your whip for other things while grappling with it. I don't think it needs bleed damage on top of grappling, either, that's enough for a maneuver. Bloody Spin doesn't need a spiked chain mention, since you can't use Longus Manus with a spiked chain. Instead of doing double damage with a failed save, you could put Dex points of Bleed damage here from Longus Manus. You may also want to include Whip Daggers here, since they have the pointy bit for creating lacerations. Hanged Man is ridiculous, with the mounting penalties and forcing them to make a Constitution check instead of a Fort save. It also doesn't need that disclaimer about not being grappled, that's already covered by Longus Manus, which you need to have in place to make this happen. I'd also add a tag for this being a Tactical feat, since that what it is.

It's a good effort, just needs some revision and polish, it does. Them's my 2 coppers, take as you will.

CinuzIta
2013-01-20, 05:26 PM
Well, you almost made me cry but lets see :smallbiggrin:



These are alright, though I don't quite get why we need a Hooked Whip when the Whip Dagger works that position quite well as-is. Especially given to be proficient with the Hooked Whip, you have to spend an additional feat, whereas the Whip Dagger allows you to wield one if you're proficient with whips already. I also think keeping the Mighty clause is a stupid tax to maintain if we're to improve whips, especially as a melee weapon. Just let them use their Strength like any other melee weapon.


I didn't noticed that the Whip Dagger didn't need a personal Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Easy to solve, I'll remove it from the Hooked Whip. The mighty clause can be erased but in these thread, as I said for the martial weapon issue about the whip, I didn't wanted to propose new rules but new options to use with the normal rules. I'll post it as a tip in the OP.

About the Hooked Whip, why not? I mean, there are several existing weapons that are similar to each other. A new one will not make a big difference.


I also don't think you've done a service to Lasher beyond shortening it to 5 levels, as you lost Close Combat, Wound and Whip Lash and made them feats, so you've made it harder to be good with your weapon of choice. Except for Wound, which hasn't been replaced at all, so you force a prospective whip wielder to use a different weapon entirely to deal with armored foes, which are common. We could also improve Stunning Snap and Death Spiral by making them Dex-based for the DC and make them less MAD, especially given I suspect many whip wielders will be finessing them. Not to mention that Death Spiral has never been terribly clear on when you're to make that attack roll, nevermind it being once per day for inexplicable reasons. We could also improve things by removing Superior Weapon Focus and Lashing Whip and putting some of these whip feats in there instead. Whips are about control, not damage. Put Deadly Whip in Lashing Whip's place, grant Vexing Foe instead of Superior Weapon Focus. Bam, now it's got power and utility, not just bonuses.

Mh..I have made those feats thinking at those players who wanted to effectively use a whip without the need of spending levels in another class. (I would do it, at least)
Say, what if someone doesn't want to multiclass and still wants to effectively use a whip?

Anyway, you're right: Deadly Whip and Vexing Foe could substitue those abilities. Also, I'll change those DC, it makes much more sense putting them as Dex based.


Whip the Ground covers a huge area, given most effects hit 30' or less, your's does ~180', if we convert from metric. Also adds MAD by requiring Charisma and being kinda fixed with the DC. Consolidate to Dex or Str, preferably Dex. Whip Mastery, Guiding Whip and Make Them Bleed need some revision as well, not to mention Whipping Defense, as they use terms that don't exist in-game, plus that bleed damage is out of hand compared to Arterial Strike. Whipping Defense needs a DC to resist as opposed to 'I threaten you with my length of leather that may or may not be able to damage you b/c you chose to wear more than a shirt! Slow Down!'. Probably Will based on Dex, as higher Dex means more coverage and faster.

My bad. I meant 60 feet, not meters. It's just that I'm not used to count in feet.

When I created Whip the Ground I thought about how menacing could appear a whip user while doing it, so I put it Cha based, but I hadn't thought at the MAD. Will be changed to Dex.

Could you please point out what are the terms not existing in game? And the bleeding damage from Make Them Bleed scales based on the feats, so I think that a player who focus on that should be rewarded with a good bleeding damage.

Yes, Whirling Defense could use a saving throw, but instead of Will, I'd make it a Reflexes saving throw...it's not about you willing to attack, but you dodging the whip.


Complete Actions I can only assume are supposed to be Full Round Actions, and the DC for Guiding Whip could just be standardized to 10+BAB+Dex mod, which keeps it dynamic and useful. Also, it says they have to move at half their speed or fall prone but never covers how you take them down, which seems like a weak substitute for Trip, which whips are good at as-is. I'd remove the mention or reduce to Standard action, as combat maneuvers aren't slow by any means. I don't see a reason to cost them an action, if they want to go somewhere else, they'll spend that Move to go elsewhere.

Aye, those are Full Round Actions :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, it could be reduced to a standard action. Anyway, the enemy would fall as a consequence of the player's pulling (something like someone has grasped your leg with a whip and starts to pull hard..the same reason why the whip are so good at Trip attempt)

I don't think I understood your critic about the movement action


For Whip Mastery, yeesh. Let's see, I'd state for Longus Manus that the grapple is a free action and that you can't use your whip for other things while grappling with it. I don't think it needs bleed damage on top of grappling, either, that's enough for a maneuver. Bloody Spin doesn't need a spiked chain mention, since you can't use Longus Manus with a spiked chain. Instead of doing double damage with a failed save, you could put Dex points of Bleed damage here from Longus Manus. You may also want to include Whip Daggers here, since they have the pointy bit for creating lacerations. Hanged Man is ridiculous, with the mounting penalties and forcing them to make a Constitution check instead of a Fort save. It also doesn't need that disclaimer about not being grappled, that's already covered by Longus Manus, which you need to have in place to make this happen. I'd also add a tag for this being a Tactical feat, since that what it is.

It's a good effort, just needs some revision and polish, it does. Them's my 2 coppers, take as you will.

If you read some posts ago, you'll see I have to change the grappled enemy with immobilized enemy. The bleed damage can be removed without any problem.

Bloody Spin doesn't mention the Spiked Chain. I wrote Spiked Whip because when I wrote the feat I didn't remember the Whip Dagger name, I'll fix that.

The Hangman need some nerfing, I'm aware of it. I'll think something better for it.

Cieyrin
2013-01-20, 05:58 PM
I didn't noticed that the Whip Dagger didn't need a personal Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Easy to solve, I'll remove it from the Hooked Whip. The mighty clause can be erased but in these thread, as I said for the martial weapon issue about the whip, I didn't wanted to propose new rules but new options to use with the normal rules. I'll post it as a tip in the OP.

About the Hooked Whip, why not? I mean, there are several existing weapons that are similar to each other. A new one will not make a big difference.

Well, given it's just +1 average damage and you can make it out of special materials, I'm not sure that necessitates its own weapon over a whip dagger. Whether y'think you need to replace the Whip Dagger with the Hooked Whip to make it worth an EWP is something else entirely.


Mh..I have made those feats thinking at those players who wanted to effectively use a whip without the need of spending levels in another class. (I would do it, at least)
Say, what if someone doesn't want to multiclass and still wants to effectively use a whip?

You could use some grouping together of feats, then, as you're basically forced to be a Fighter to get through all those feats, which isn't exactly a better choice. Characters only get 7 feats (not counting bonus) in their careers, so it should be worthwhile.


My bad. I meant 60 feet, not meters. It's just that I'm not used to count in feet.

When I created Whip the Ground I thought about how menacing could appear a whip user while doing it, so I put it Cha based, but I hadn't thought at the MAD. Will be changed to Dex.

Could you please point out what are the terms not existing in game? And the bleeding damage from Make Them Bleed scales based on the feats, so I think that a player who focus on that should be rewarded with a good bleeding damage.

The terms not covered I wrote below, Complete vs. Full. As for Bleeding, as I stated above, you only get 7 feats in your career, making more feats just to give you the option for +1 bleed on a feat you may not pick up doesn't seem the best design choice.


Yes, Whirling Defense could use a saving throw, but instead of Will, I'd make it a Reflexes saving throw...it's not about you willing to attack, but you dodging the whip.

Fair enough. I was imagining more forcing yourself forward through the onslaught to combat hopscotch but I suppose that's a valid choice.


Aye, those are Full Round Actions :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, it could be reduced to a standard action. Anyway, the enemy would fall as a consequence of the player's pulling (something like someone has grasped your leg with a whip and starts to pull hard..the same reason why the whip are so good at Trip attempt)

I don't think I understood your critic about the movement action.

So they move and fall prone? Then state that, it seemed more an 'or' statement in the description to an 'and' statement. Making it so makes it even more reason not to cost them an action, as they'll already spend a move to getup and costing them a move denies them any actions, which frankly smells of the cheddar, since you can keep doing it at no real cost to yourself.


If you read some posts ago, you'll see I have to change the grappled enemy with immobilized enemy. The bleed damage can be removed without any problem.

I figured the latest version would be in the OP, not later, which is fairly customary and gets people to post something relevant to what you're currently working. I read bits and pieces throughout but figured the later mentions would be the same as what was in Post #1.


Bloody Spin doesn't mention the Spiked Chain. I wrote Spiked Whip because when I wrote the feat I didn't remember the Whip Dagger name, I'll fix that.

I misread that. :smallredface:

CinuzIta
2013-01-21, 06:01 AM
No, I wasn't thinking at replacing the Whip Dagger with the Hooked Whip. I added it just for variety! Anyway, Hooked Whip will be available with the general Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) just like the other whips!

I'll see if I can group some feats

I hadn't thought that most of the players don't go after 20th level...I've just ended a campaign where me and my group mates were at level 26, so we had *plenty* of feats

No, they don't move and fall prone. They move or fall prone. See it this way: someone's still pulling your leg, you can follow the direction where the leg is pulled [to avoid falling down because of you not being stable (you want to stay firm, but someone's pulling you)] or fall because you don't want to be directed somewhere else (your foe is tripping you)...aw, I'm not sure these is clear.

That's my bad, I didn't had enough time these days to edit the first post...it'll be done asap!

CinuzIta
2013-01-22, 04:14 PM
First post updated!

Zarthrax
2013-01-28, 04:07 AM
For Make Them Bleed, I would include Weapon Focus, as well as the Greater versions of that and Specialization. Just seems proper...lol

CinuzIta
2013-01-29, 07:14 AM
For Make Them Bleed, I would include Weapon Focus, as well as the Greater versions of that and Specialization. Just seems proper...lol

Mmh, I was thinking to only add Weapon Focus, so that even the non Fighter characters could have some more bleed point per turn...maybe I could add the improved version of the feats, so that a Fighter do have some kind of edge over the other characters when specializating in whip usage!