First time DM, had a few questions and some critiques of my hook.

[Rukia]

So next Friday we will be starting a campaign and it will be my first attempt at DMing. I have a basic understanding of the rules system, especially the combat portions, but I still have a few questions regarding the in between grey areas and how it all fits together. I haven't actually played in about a year so I'm a bit rusty though I've been reading up a lot to refresh my memory.

So first the setup. It's only a 3 person party and they're starting at level 3 consisting of a cleric, barb and wiz/rogue. I think for starters I'll consider them somewhat comparable to a party of 4 level 2's and adjust from there. I'd rather go slightly easy and then make it more difficult than start too tough and kill them the first night. We've all played before, and in a bigger group, but with fewer people I think it will streamline the game. Previously we had 5 and most were new so it took forever to get anywhere.

I had some questions about my campaign start and how to fit Crown of the Kobold King into FR, but for now I'll ask the basic questions and go from there.

1. Monster knowledge checks. I have a plan on what monster information to give them based on DC, but am I supposed to tell them what knowledge check to make or are they supposed to guess? If it's an ooze do they have to know to roll dungeoneering or do I ask for it? If they're honestly not supposed to have any information about that monster before they pass the DC, then how would they have any clue what the proper knowledge check is without just totally guessing?

2. Once an encounter has begun I'm good with the rules, but what about the time leading up to it? Do I roll listen checks with all monsters as PC's approach the encounter for a chance to see if they're prepared for the PC's or not and can get a surprise round? Or do most people just start the encounter the instant the door is opened or the room is entered? I understand special case setups, but I'm talking about just standard room to room encounters.

3. Is it ok to do custom treasure instead of just randomly rolling for it? With a small group a lot of the treasure would end up probably sold but I'd like to ensure they get a few things they can use right away. As a player I always enjoyed finding a new toy and hated having to wait to return to town, find a buyer, etc..

4. Identify. How strict are you guys in how PC's can identify magic items. Do you require the entire "crushed 100gp of pearl, owl feather, drink potion.." in order to cast the spell or is it more standard. Also is there any feasible way for me to allow them to identify something easily if they don't have the spell? Again with a light party at low levels I don't see them preparing for the inevitable "identify" scenario, so is there a way I can help them out in the beginning? Can an item be pre-identified or some plot-fu I can use that gives it to them by other means? Perhaps a partially used wand of identify that has a note with that hints at what it can do? That way they have the ability but it will be limited so they may decide to treat it carefully and not just blow all the charges on seemingly crappy items.

All I can think of for now, but I'm sure I'll have more.

[Deca4531]

1. all depends on time. its faster to tell them, or you can let them use difforent checks for the same info if they dont have the exact skill needed.

2.depends on the situation. if the players are being loud and carless then an enemy would probably hear that and set an ambush. if not then your PCs will probably just stumble onto them. i wouldn't over complicate things.

3.custom treasure is a better way to go, lets you control your character's ability to grow and afford magic items.
"why did this giant spider have gold on it?"
"what you didint hear its butt jingling?"

4. making them wait till they return to town and pay to have things identified is a good way of keeping them from getting too much gold too fast. if you dont hand out a lot of gold then let them make a skill check like UMD or appraise or even a knowledge check to see if they can figure it out.

or theres always the old
"whats it do?"
"i dont know, drink it and find out."

[rockdeworld]

Sounds good and have fun. Here's some answers based on my knowledge/experience:
1. I just tell them what check to make. "Have you got ranks in Knowledge: Religion? Yes? Roll it." The game is built such that about half the checks should be made in secret by the DM, but that's just a huge pile of work if you really try to do it, so I find it easier just to make the players roll (and I've heard it's more fun for them to get a chance to roll anyway).

2. Technically you would constantly determine the PC's line of sight, make spot and listen checks in secret in every room, and determine their marching order ahead of time. The last one is easy, but rather than the first two, I generally just use LoS as in "you open the door and see two goblins" unless the monsters/PCs are actively trying to be stealthy. How you use the surprise round is up to you really - the PC's don't get a chance to be not-surprised by RAW, and it really just represents the monsters getting the drop on them.

3. Absolutely. You're the DM, you make the call.

4. I haven't a lot of experience with PCs that actually have this spell. I would just make sure those who do know the costs involved in it, and let them decide how prepared they want to be. A Wand of Identify in the loot goes a long way towards easy identification. Make them roll to figure out what it does, it adds more roleplaying.

[Story]

Again with a light party at low levels I don't see them preparing for the inevitable "identify" scenario, so is there a way I can help them out in the beginning? Can an item be pre-identified or some plot-fu I can use that gives it to them by other means? Perhaps a partially used wand of identify that has a note with that hints at what it can do? That way they have the ability but it will be limited so they may decide to treat it carefully and not just blow all the charges on seemingly crappy items.


Just hand them an Artificer's Monocle (MIC, 1.5k, lets you treat Detect Magic as Identify by examining an item for one minute). No more worries about Identify ever.

[Rukia]

Thanks for the answer guys, you basically just reassured most of what I was thinking. I don't want to make things overcomplicated and would like the campaign to flow well but I also don't want to take too many rolls away because I know as a player that rolling is fun, especially for classes that don't have a lot of skills.

As far as the Articifer monacle, I thought about that but it's going too far in that direction. I want identify to be somewhat of an issue and not just make it free but on the other hand I don't want them going through 2 entire dungeons before being able to at least identify something. It's the balance I'm working on.


So I didn't explain my hook in the first post so I'll explain it here. Basically I don't want to railroad the entire campaign, but I want to get them on the right track at first and let it branch out from there. As a previous player of the last campaign I can say that we got side tracked a lot and made for some extremely slow paced adventuring due to not being nudged. I want to avoid that at least at first and throw them right into the action and let them roleplay as they go.

Since it's my first time DMing I want to run a module, currently going with Crown of the Kobold King which looks really fun(I read it the other night). However I want to shoehorn them into Falcon's Hollow without just saying ... "You find yourself in the town of...". Here's my idea, if not a bit cliche.

The 3 of them awake in a cold, dark room with no idea how they got there. As they wakeup they notice a pain in the back of their neck which gets them to remember being attacked but never saw the attacker. Strangely they have all of their equipment and are not bound. There is a single door in the room.

So basically the synopsis is they were all drugged and brought to this room but have no idea why. The idea is that a certain person, who may or may not be good or bad, has a rather forceful way of recruiting adventurers. He drugs them and puts them in this dungeon he has setup to test them. They don't know this and will simply try and find a way out and find any clues as to why they're there.

The plan is when they finally make it to the final room, they will find a note explaining a few things and a reward from the person for making it that far. Note will basically tell them that they passed the first test and a few items(maybe cloak of resistances for each and a partial charged wand of identify) are given to smooth over the rather harsh treatment. The person works for a rather powerful employer who needs capable adventurers and is prepared to reward them handsomely. The final part of the test is for the PC's to track this person down without any extra clues given.

This gives them the choice to basically say screw it we don't care, or perhaps they are more interested in revenge or maybe they are mad but the rewards and promise of more is enough to convince them to continue. Either way either a teleportation stone or perhaps an elevator will take them to the surface. (Note the dungeon is an old set of mining tunnels with no actual exit as they have been caved in). Upon leaving they end up outside of a mountain and the only thing in sight of note is a town a few miles away sitting next to a river. Enter Falcon's Hollow.

Assuming they head towards town the module will take over. To ensure they actually have interest in saving the children my backup plan is for some of the townsfolk to have information regarding other strange adventurer's that have passed through in the recent weeks and months. In exchange for helping the children they are willing to share that information and help the PC's as much as possible.

Assuming they finish the module and get that info, it will basically give them hints as to where to look next if they plan on following through with the 2nd part of the test. If not that campaign can go anywhere they wish to take it at that point.

So basically I need to come up with a simple single level dungeon crawl that takes them from their starting point to the final room with the note and exit. I don't really want to create it from scratch until I get some more experience under my belt, so I'm hoping to just yank a dungeon level from another module or adventure that I can just plug in with minor fuss. Any recommendations of something that might work? Could be an old Dwarven mining tunnel or any other legitimate reason there would be a network of tunnels underneath a mountain. I'd just like it to have a handful of simple traps and enough monsters to give them trouble and force them to work together. By the time they leave the mountain they should have at least a small amount of trust between themselves, not to mention a nice chunk of exp, but most importantly a reason for them to stick together.

[yougi]

1. Monster knowledge checks. I have a plan on what monster information to give them based on DC, but am I supposed to tell them what knowledge check to make or are they supposed to guess? If it's an ooze do they have to know to roll dungeoneering or do I ask for it?

I started off making them guess, up until it started being "Wizard does Arcana, nature and planes, Cleric does religion and local, Rogue does...".


If they're honestly not supposed to have any information about that monster before they pass the DC, then how would they have any clue what the proper knowledge check is without just totally guessing?

They have your description. If you say: "There's this horned humanoid", then it's either humanoid or monstrous humanoid, maybe giant. "It's a pool of jelly" and "it's a flying lizard" also kind of give it away. If they ask you what type of Knowledge check to roll after you tell them "it's an animated corpse", show them the table in the PHb. If they still ask you, they don't deserve to know.


2. Once an encounter has begun I'm good with the rules, but what about the time leading up to it? Do I roll listen checks with all monsters as PC's approach the encounter for a chance to see if they're prepared for the PC's or not and can get a surprise round? Or do most people just start the encounter the instant the door is opened or the room is entered? I understand special case setups, but I'm talking about just standard room to room encounters.

I personally do that. It gets tedious to do it in game with large groups of enemies, so I roll them ahead of time, when planning for the encounter, and put it in my statblocks.


3. Is it ok to do custom treasure instead of just randomly rolling for it? With a small group a lot of the treasure would end up probably sold but I'd like to ensure they get a few things they can use right away. As a player I always enjoyed finding a new toy and hated having to wait to return to town, find a buyer, etc..

It's definitely fine. And it makes sense also. Why would this high level assassin have a +3 full plate it can't use in its backpack?

I personally like the feel of random treasure, but for it to make sense, and to avoid the spider butt jingling problem that was mentioned earlier, if I have a dungeon or faction, I roll treasures for all of them, put them together, and then assign to each. I also veto some stuff (what wouldn't make sense for the NPCs to have, what I don't want my PCs to have), and make sure my NPCs are appropriately geared, but I found it hard to keep my spiked chain tripper in the perfect middle between "isn't it odd how every enemy has a spiked chain?" and "I CAN'T GET ANY SPIKED CHAINS?"


4. Identify. How strict are you guys in how PC's can identify magic items. Do you require the entire "crushed 100gp of pearl, owl feather, drink potion.." in order to cast the spell or is it more standard. Also is there any feasible way for me to allow them to identify something easily if they don't have the spell? Again with a light party at low levels I don't see them preparing for the inevitable "identify" scenario, so is there a way I can help them out in the beginning? Can an item be pre-identified or some plot-fu I can use that gives it to them by other means? Perhaps a partially used wand of identify that has a note with that hints at what it can do? That way they have the ability but it will be limited so they may decide to treat it carefully and not just blow all the charges on seemingly crappy items.

I do the pearl thing, but you have to make sure to give your players lots of cash early so they still stay on WBL. Then, at high level, where the thrill of having to identify items goes, I have them an Artificer's Monocle. If you don't like Artificer's Monocle (I kept it for higher levels), there are a few ways to make them guess:
- First edition had magical weapons/armor be 10x lighter than non-magical gear for each +1 it had. Made it easy to identify these.
- Make the items' design describe it's power: the Staff of Fire has flames carved on it, the potion of waterbreathing is in a vial where a man is drawn under the ocean, that kind of stuff.
- Make an NPC use it.

DM: Drow hits you with his rapier, 18 piercing damage and 6 acid.
Rogue: OMG Corrosive rapier, DIBS!

In some cases, it wouldn't be unthinkable for an NPC to have instructions to their magic items' uses, or labels on their potions.



I want identify to be somewhat of an issue and not just make it free but on the other hand I don't want them going through 2 entire dungeons before being able to at least identify something. It's the balance I'm working on.


Depending on what you're trying to achieve, a spellcraft check could work, and if you want to put a price on it, make them buy an identification kit, 250gp for 10 uses, which contains stuff like special liquids and bottles to experiment, and say it takes an hour per item, during which they can't be interrupted.

For wands, you could make them write stuff on the floor with it. If the bugs stop moving, you can use it on enemies. If the bugs disappear, not so much.



Basically I don't want to railroad the entire campaign, but I want to get them on the right track at first and let it branch out from there


Your hook seems good, gives the PCs quite a few options. If you make sure you don't describe their kidnapper, you can use Schrodinger's NPC (as long as you don't open the box, you don't know what he's like) to make him evil if they decide for him to be evil for these actions, or good if they want to follow his quests. (Side note: I personally work like that a lot. Today, while asking a high-ranking bishop for permission to explore the church personnel's quarters to learn who helped the evil cult get in the city, the bard said "We all know the Bishop's the guy, why don't we kill him right away?, to which the Wizard said "Cause if we do, suddenly, he'll make it so it's another guy.")

As an inexperienced DM, I have to say that you could (should) give them more structure, both for you to be more prepared and to avoid "so, what now...", which will kill a game. Personally, I give my campaigns an overarching goal, and I tell my players before we start to make sure they all agree. The game I'm in right now, the players are fighting an evil cult that's starting to be a large threat. Halfway through the campaign, we had a discussion about what we'd like to do in the next one, and it will be leading a revolution against a large, powerful, oppressive empire. In a group I play in, we wanted to be dragonslayers, and so that's what we did. Leave them enough room for side stories: if a PC wants to find his long lost daughter, sure, give him that story, but have something linking the quests. I personally enjoy that more, both as a PC and a DM, and it might be just personal preferences, but to start, it would definitely make your life easier.




I don't really want to create it from scratch until I get some more experience under my belt, so I'm hoping to just yank a dungeon level from another module or adventure that I can just plug in with minor fuss. Any recommendations of something that might work?

I personally only know of one good 3rd level dungeon crawl (Forge of Fury), but it's nowhere near short and simple. If it's a test and not a "real" dungeon that needs to be believable, it could very well be just a few encounters back to back:

1st- the door out of their room is trapped with a Ghoul touch trap

2nd- the next room has 3 Goblin War1 and their leader, a Bugbear (all from MM1)

3rd- Next room has a riddle (http://www.rinkworks.com/brainfood/p/riddles1.shtml)

4th- Next room has some form of "skill challenge", as they're called in 4e, where they have to use their skills (I personally love them): for example, there's a dead man on the ground: a heal check tells you he died from fire. Spellcraft would tell you the fire was from a scorching ray spell. With Search, the party could find a symbol on the walls, which, with Knowledge (Arcana), the PCs could understand is a warning that the door is trapped. The rogue's disable device then allows them to open it without problem.

5th- combat again: an Ankheg

6th- 5 Human Commoner Zombies

There you go, you've got a dungeon! :)

[Story]

They have your description. If you say: "There's this horned humanoid", then it's either humanoid or monstrous humanoid, maybe giant. "It's a pool of jelly" and "it's a flying lizard" also kind of give it away. If they ask you what type of Knowledge check to roll after you tell them "it's an animated corpse", show them the table in the PHb. If they still ask you, they don't deserve to know.


So you want to penalize them for a lack of OOC knowledge? Sounds harsh to me.

[Rukia]

I personally only know of one good 3rd level dungeon crawl (Forge of Fury), but it's nowhere near short and simple. If it's a test and not a "real" dungeon that needs to be believable, it could very well be just a few encounters back to back:

1st- the door out of their room is trapped with a Ghoul touch trap

2nd- the next room has 3 Goblin War1 and their leader, a Bugbear (all from MM1)

3rd- Next room has a riddle (http://www.rinkworks.com/brainfood/p/riddles1.shtml)

4th- Next room has some form of "skill challenge", as they're called in 4e, where they have to use their skills (I personally love them): for example, there's a dead man on the ground: a heal check tells you he died from fire. Spellcraft would tell you the fire was from a scorching ray spell. With Search, the party could find a symbol on the walls, which, with Knowledge (Arcana), the PCs could understand is a warning that the door is trapped. The rogue's disable device then allows them to open it without problem.

5th- combat again: an Ankheg

6th- 5 Human Commoner Zombies

There you go, you've got a dungeon! :)

Thanks for the taking the time to respond as much as you did. You're probably right about just making the dungeon as simple as you said. I was just thinking of making it a standard dungeon with dead ends, traps, locked doors, etc.. but it theoretically could have just been a series of rooms connected, each one having it's own test.

In fact thinking about it now I probably should have some of the previous adventurer's who failed become part of the enemies. What's the quickest way for an NPC to be converted into some sort of monster? :P I don't want to do a Wight.. we've done that already and my character ultimately paid the price at level 2. Just something simple that turns an actual humanoid, still wearing some armor and weapons, into something mindlessly aggressive. Zombie... Skeletons.. etc..

[yougi]

So you want to penalize them for a lack of OOC knowledge? Sounds harsh to me.

It was meant as a joke, but to be honest, I have never met anyone who was willing to try D&D and did not know that undead meant animated dead stuff.


Thanks for the taking the time to respond as much as you did. You're probably right about just making the dungeon as simple as you said. I was just thinking of making it a standard dungeon with dead ends, traps, locked doors, etc.. but it theoretically could have just been a series of rooms connected, each one having it's own test.

In fact thinking about it now I probably should have some of the previous adventurer's who failed become part of the enemies. What's the quickest way for an NPC to be converted into some sort of monster? :P I don't want to do a Wight.. we've done that already and my character ultimately paid the price at level 2. Just something simple that turns an actual humanoid, still wearing some armor and weapons, into something mindlessly aggressive. Zombie... Skeletons.. etc..

If you want to make it a standardly mapped dungeon, and don't want to invest too much time in it, I suggest using a random dungeon generator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/).

For ex-adventurers, just have the adventurers themselves, but turned mad by having lost all of their buddies to a test. Or a shadow (with its equipment lying somewhere around). Maybe a Ghoul/Ghast of an unarmored class (Monk, Wizard, Sorcerer...). If not, for a 3rd level party, it pretty much would have to be Skelly/Zombie, from what I see.