Screwed over - Looking for Assistance

[Nullmancer]

Hey guys, here's my situation.

I'm a level 1 wizard (got revoked of clerical powers, so the dm made me a level 1 wizard), whose ability scores were all reduced to 10 because of a DM's ruling. I drew from the deck of magical things, and I gained 9 levels in whatever I choose, two followers (and 4th level fighter, and a 4th level cleric or something), and an extra level in the next thing I kill.

The DM is letting me use Vow of Poverty, because at this point, I don't have any equipment either, because a dude in the group robbed them from me while another did hold person on me.

I wish to go straight into Druid, with the VoP benefits (which the DM has said I will gain all of the exalted feats because I took it prior to gaining the 50,000 exp).

My main goal with this character is to assist others through healing or whatever, because my wizard class is pretty much useless at this point. I also want to be able to counter anything and everything that people try to pull on me because I'm tired of their crap. Druids I've heard are the most powerful class in the game (and I've done my bit of research as far as what they can do, and I agree). Since I'm going VoP, I would like to focus on a Wild Shape build, with a higher dc for my spells. If both aren't possible to build for a level 10 character, then tell me which one would be more relating to a "{scrubbed}" button.

Thank you for your time.

Edit: I have access to all 3.0 and 3.5 Forgotten Realms books, so, all the options are available, except for Eberron stuff and Dragon Magazine stuff.

[NotScaryBats]

If you only have 10 wisdom, you can't cast any spells but lvl 0. So, don't worry about your DCs

[Archmage1]

yea... all 10's kinda mean you are screwed as a caster.
it also means that you are not going to make a good anything.
The only class that I know of that is stat independent is warlock, which is actually what I would be tempted to play
These guys just robbed you. Why are you going to help them?
Or talk with the dm, and convince him that there is no effective class with those stats, and, upon failure, take commoner to 10, and roll up a new character.

Druid is powerful for casting. You aren't going to have any. Wild shape is nice though.

[Alefiend]

If this is the sort of game and group you've found yourself in, my best advice is to find some other people to play with. They seem to be having fun at your expense, and that makes for a toxic environment.

[Deca4531]

If this is the sort of game and group you've found yourself in, my best advice is to find some other people to play with. They seem to be having fun at your expense, and that makes for a toxic environment.

yeah i agree.

Baring that, look into PUN PUN. it will piss your DM for sure, but it sounds like he deserves it.

[Venusaur]

If you only have 10 wisdom, you can't cast any spells but lvl 0. So, don't worry about your DCs

With +4 from Vow of Poverty, and +2 from leveling, you can get 16 Wis, which would let you cast all your druid spells.

I would definitely recommend getting a Fleshraker Dinosaur from the MM3 as an animal companion, and casting Venomfire on it. Warbeast template is good if you can convince your DM to allow it, but is sketchy RAW. For even more silliness, wildshape into one yourself and share spells.

Take Greenbound summoning from Lost Empires of Faerun. It makes anything you summon incredibly deadly.

Draconic Wildshape, Frozen Wildshape, or Abberant Wildshape are good feats.

[Nullmancer]

Thanks Venusaur. Much appreciated. Any ideas as far as Exalted Feats I should prioritize what with the five extra e-feats I'll be gaining from PoV?

[Fyermind]

Contrary to some of the above posts, this sounds like a really interesting challenge. VoP could be cool, but it might be worth waiting for equipment. I'd agree that even without casting, druid is a great direction to go. Look into planar shepherd (or Master of Many forms if you want a lower level of cheese). You won't be a terrifying spellcaster, but you will be your favorite monster out of the monster manual. A new one every encounter. Also, you should note that you get +2 to your favorite ability score from leveling up, so you could cast up to second level spells.

[Nullmancer]

On top of that, the Vow of Poverty gives a +2 ability enhancement at level 7 or something. Then, at level 11, I'll gain a +4/+2 and each one I can put into specific abilities. Meaning, my wisdom will be back up to 20 within 5000 experience.

Again, any suggestions as far as exalted feats I should take since I gain 5 from the vow?

[Dread Angel]

My personal suggestion is this:

If your DM doesn't know about Pun Pun, ask if you can have a race change to Kobold...

...and pull Pun Pun on him. {Scrubbed}

[Nullmancer]

I don't think you guys are paying attention to what I've previously posted...this is what I've got. This is what I'm working with. Any exalted feats worth delving into?

[Deca4531]

I don't think you guys are paying attention to what I've previously posted...this is what I've got. This is what I'm working with. Any exalted feats worth delving into?

other then the vows most of those feats suck. Nimbus of light, Nymphs's kiss and Sanctify Martial Strike are pretty decent i guess.

might wanna look into Saint, its only a +2LV and very broken.

[Nullmancer]

Thank you, again. Your assistance is very much appreciated.

[Phelix-Mu]

Touch of Golden Ice can be useful, but first you should get your DM to rule on if maybe it might be okay to let the DC scale with your level (DC 10 +1/2HD + one stat modifier, the flavor sounds like Cha, but maybe you can talk your DM into Wisdom). It's very useful against things like undead and demons, but the DC given in the book is fixed (though that DC comes from when you try to buy it off the shelf, arguably if your body is producing it, it should be like a natural poison, which should scale). Also not sure if you'd produce it while in wild shape.

Exalted Wild Shape can be useful. I think there is a wild shape handbook out there that would be good to look at, and this feat is usually mentioned as helping break some of the limits of normal wild shape.

I can't remember if you can take the metamagic feats as exalted feats, talk to your DM. An exalted cleric in a past campaign of mine did some crazy things with Purify Spell, and it might be useful, but this mainly depends on the enemies you will be fighting.

In truth, eventually VoP gives you more bonus exalted feats than there are useful exalted feats. This is where you innocently ask the DM if he has any custom exalted feats he'd like to introduce, or other feats that he'd like to count as exalted.

You also need to clarify the issue with all exalted feats being Supernatural. By RAW, antimagic field and dead magic zone removes all benefits from all exalted feats, possibly including the Extraordinary benefits granted by VoP. While AMF and such will screw pretty much any class pretty hard, this situation may be particularly dangerous for your character. You'd still have an animal companion, though.

Basically, my approach here would be along the lines others have suggested. Ask DM for confirmation with lots of stuff, follow his guidelines. Even with some pathetic gimping, druid is strong enough to allow you to parcel out enough rope to the DM/other players to let them hang themselves.

[Venusaur]

Thanks Venusaur. Much appreciated. Any ideas as far as Exalted Feats I should prioritize what with the five extra e-feats I'll be gaining from PoV?

I would take Nymph's Kiss and Exalted Wildshape as the main two. Intuitive attack is worth considering, but your forms will have higher strength anyways. Touch of Golden Ice can be nice as well.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'll second nymph's kiss. It's a good one to take as your first one, since the extra skill points do stack up as time goes on.

Another thing to consider is diplomancer tricks. VoP can be an excellent route to making friends, and the value of having friendly people offering stuff to the party in every town the party has ever been to, friendly with all the temples, friendly with the priests, with the mayor, with the nymph in the forest, eventually the DM can inadvertently give you access to more than they intend by just allowing you to make friends. Granted, VoP druid is going to not have a lot of the typical diplomancer tricks available, but it's worth considering if you ever multiclass or pick up saint or something that would give a natural route to "hobo hero of the people." Keep track of who you donate your share of the loot to, and make sure to either personally or by proxy diplomacy those people so that they will always be helpful and friendly to you.

[Arcanist]

Ask your DM if you can replace your Wizard level with Sorcerer, at 7th take 2 level in Apostle of Peace and proceed to take 10 levels of Mystic Theurge.

And a 1 level dip in Archmage for mastery of shaping or Reach or something. There you go. Dual 9's and if worst comes to worse you just cast baleful polymorph on a Humanoid and just beat his face in :smallwink:

EDIT: On a side note: I highly recommend Sanctum Spell and that you stay out of your sanctum (so spells count as 1 level lower). Use Arcane Fusion (Arcane Fusion, Lesser Orb of Force) infinite damage loop on the guy that did this to you, just because he is a tool and has it coming... BUT! I am a very vengeful person so eh...

[Nullmancer]

Haha, I like the thought there Arcanist, haha, but I figured out a loop of my own. Pulled a crit Diplomacy on a friendly wizard who knows my character, and the before-mentioned friend sent the ******* to the Abyss. I do believe that's revenge enough.

[Arcanist]

Haha, I like the thought there Arcanist, haha, but I figured out a loop of my own. Pulled a crit Diplomacy on a friendly wizard who knows my character, and the before-mentioned friend sent the ******* to the Abyss. I do believe that's revenge enough.

No you see, the problem here is that he still has hope. Only when his sheet is in ashes, his soul howling for you to beg for death, and the last of his family kneeling before you graciously worshiping you as there lord and master will he know peace in his coffin, which even then shall be an eternal damnation for him.

... I learned how to be evil from reading Superman comics and observing Darkseid, but now a days that is really the only way to be evil :smallamused:

[Grollub]

Ask your DM if you can replace your Wizard level with Sorcerer, at 7th take 2 level in Apostle of Peace and proceed to take 10 levels of Mystic Theurge.

And a 1 level dip in Archmage for mastery of shaping or Reach or something. There you go. Dual 9's and if worst comes to worse you just cast baleful polymorph on a Humanoid and just beat his face in :smallwink:

EDIT: On a side note: I highly recommend Sanctum Spell and that you stay out of your sanctum (so spells count as 1 level lower). Use Arcane Fusion (Arcane Fusion, Lesser Orb of Force) infinite damage loop on the guy that did this to you, just because he is a tool and has it coming... BUT! I am a very vengeful person so eh...

Could you go into details on this infinite loop, or pm me on it?

[Nullmancer]

Duly noted, good sir. I will remember you as someone to go to for evil advice. Another group I've been playing with says I'm a goodie two shoes, and unable to play an evil character. One day, I would very much love to prove them wrong. (shakes fist at sky)

[Arcanist]

Could you go into details on this infinite loop, or pm me on it?

Alright. Take Sanctum spell and put it on a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer must know 3 spells.


Arcane Fusion (Or Greater Arcane Fusion)
Lesser Orb of Force (Or Orb of Force)
Celerity


If all 3 of these you can perform the loop.

First you find a target and cast Arcane Fusion as a Sanctum spell making it a 4th level spell and thus a viable target for Arcane Fusion. You plug in the following spells (X,Y) X being Arcane Fusion (X,Y) and Y being Lesser Orb of Force.

You continue setting X as Arcane Fusion until the target is dead or you want to stop. Celerity is to act before the target so that you may set this combo up. Lesser Orb of Force offers no save or spell resistance and deals force damage (which nothing is immune too) and Arcane Fusion is obvious.

Enjoy killing everything that can take damage.

EDIT: For taste reasons I enjoy putting this into a build with Ultimate Magus and refluff it as a Super Giga Awesome-o spell or something.

[Story]

Won't you still be limited by spell slots? Sure you can nova like noone's business but it still isn't infinite.

[Arcanist]

Won't you still be limited by spell slots? Sure you can nova like noone's business but it still isn't infinite.

Arcane Fusion (and it's Greater) specifically states that you do not expend any spell slots from this. So yes, it is indeed infinite :smallwink:


Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot.

[Snowbluff]

Other options:

Human Paragon is 2/3 casting, gives +2 to a stat.

Chameleon can do some casting, and has Ability boon (bonus to a stat).

[silverwolfer]

Is this a r/l group or a post by play or what?

[Snowbluff]

Is this a r/l group or a post by play or what?

Jesus Quincy... calm down.

[Spuddles]

Grab versatile spellcaster to get earlier access to higher level spells.

Rashemi Elemental Summons & Greenbound Summoning will make your summoned animals & elementals super badass. Those are both FR feats. They will be so tough, you will have incredible spell slot endurance.

MM2 has the warbeast template. Put that on your animal companion for bonus HD and ability score boosts. Pick up natural bond so you get full druid level to your animal companion.

Get spellbound companion so you can have more range between you and your animal companion when you share spells. Share stuff like girallon's blessing (extra arms/claws/rend) and greater luminous armor (+8 armor bonus, -4 penalty to melee attacks vs. you), bite of the werebear (+18 str).

I would be tempted to pick up 4 levels of arcane heirophant, as it will give your animal companion an int score and you won't lose wildshaping or any other important druid class features.

If you really want to go all out, get abberrant wildshape and assume supernatural ability, pick eye rays from a beholder. Now you have at will disintegrate, charm person, etc. The DCs will be very low, though, because of 10 in every ability score.

[silverwolfer]

you know, if your party is in on this also not just your DM, i think your greatest feat of revenge, would be to do something so stumped that it kills the entire party and leaves the DM with no one to further string along in this manner.

[Arcanist]

you know, if your party is in on this also not just your DM, i think your greatest feat of revenge, would be to do something so stumped that it kills the entire party and leaves the DM with no one to further string along in this manner.

Eh... Nah... He might just only kill him and spare the entire party with so much fiat that it blots out the sun.

[silverwolfer]

All this ultimate power...


Be evil ;), worship some god that requirs sacrfice...and when it is your turn to stand guard for the night....stab your teamates...

[Arcanist]

All this ultimate power...


Be evil ;), worship some god that requirs sacrfice...and when it is your turn to stand guard for the night....stab your teamates...

"Your knife breaks and the shards bounce around the area gaining enough momentum and stabbing you in the Heart thus automatically killing you"

Seriously, the only way to do this is to go over the DM's shoulders and pull off so many shenanigans that they either:

1) Stop.
2) See option 1.

[Phelix-Mu]

Beware the path of revenge for that way lies only....

Ah, w/e. Assume that good advice about the best way to make friends is not to make enemies or some such was given here.

I'd avoid infinite damage loops. All you will achieve is enemies with persisted spell immunity or force immunity or some other creative DM-fu.

You should probably ignore the DM as much as possible, and focus on the actually possible revenge against character x. So far you seem to be doing pretty well on this number. Be careful not to alienate everyone. Allies are ever so useful, especially if you make lots of enemies.

Now let's take off the good advice training wheels and get back to how to explode game balance with druid.

Ooh, another thread was just discussing if you could combine familiar and animal companion via Celestial Familiar and Exalted Companion. Seems like it could be down to DM ruling, and if your DM said it was allowed, you could pick up sor or wiz (or any arcane spellcasting class and Obtain Familiar) and get an intelligent companion. Line up for abuse here. Discussion about actual legality of this is ongoing, but the worst the dm can do is say no. It is an interesting character concept, and meshes ever so well with mystic theurge (assuming you already went with that instead of arcane hierophant from races of the wild).

[Kobold Esq]

I also want to be able to counter anything and everything that people try to pull on me because I'm tired of their bull****.

The only winning move is not to play.

http://popdose.com/wp-content/uploads/wargames3.jpg

[Averis Vol]

Just a note on the infinite loop..... Unless there was some erreta, I'm fairly certain sanctum spell only makes spells act like they we're low without actually being lower. So if you're outside your sanctum your spells act as if they we're cast 1 level lower, if you're in they act as 1 level higher.

"A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level."

emphasis mine on that one. Either way, advance your levels a bit and save this trick for later and it still works.

[silverwolfer]

If this is a r/l game, I would acccedently spill soda on everyones character sheets

[Arcanist]

Just a note on the infinite loop..... Unless there was some erreta, I'm fairly certain sanctum spell only makes spells act like they we're low without actually being lower. So if you're outside your sanctum your spells act as if they we're cast 1 level lower, if you're in they act as 1 level higher.

"A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level."

emphasis mine on that one. Either way, advance your levels a bit and save this trick for later and it still works.

I don't recall Dex's argument, but it referenced Heighten spell or something. not exactly sure where it was though.

EDIT: It's late and I have class in the morning so I'll just link the same thread that Dex sent me once upon a time. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170051)

EDIT: Wrong thread, but still an interesting read for it not being legal.

[Averis Vol]

I don't recall Dex's argument, but it referenced Heighten spell or something. not exactly sure where it was though.

If you could find it I would love to read it. always on the search for more information and what not.

[Immabozo]

As a druid wildshape player, I can say, I have a great "FU button" build.

Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 2/Nature's Warrior 3. You will be great in melee, despite low stats. You should be using a Cave Troll form (MM III).

Although if you want complete cheese, "FU" form, ask your DM if you can add the Chicken flooded flaw (from Dragon Mag, I know, nothing from Dragon Mags, but this one is great, not necessary, but a fantastic addition). 50% chance when you go to pull something out of something else (an item out of your pack, draw a weapon, pull something out of a drawer) you have a 50% chance to pull out a chicken. You get an extra feat too!

Then take the form of a Dusk Giant from Heroes of Horror page 137. You now have infinite chickens to eat. Eat them until you grow to 24 HD. (Allowed by the wildshaping feature of "you get the extraordinary attacks") and the extra HD give you the SLA of the dusk giants, as well as having a 54 str, 35 con, all the feats of a level 24 character, all the hp, all the stat increases, all the save increases, every level dependent bonus. And then kill them in one hit, with a 1D8 +26 (22 for str damage and a +4 from Nature's Warrior class feature nature's armament, two of them, granting a +4 together). And then you have Dimension Door and energy drain 1/day, 2/day shield and slow, 3/day enervation and ray of enfeeblement, all at Caster Level 24, SLA

And then, you have 24 HD, so you have the loophole there to shift into 24 HD monsters. With the +4 HD for the purpose of wildshaping necklace, you can do 28 HD forms, the Gerivar (MM III page 53) is a VERY nice 28 HD form.

All at actual level 10

[Screech-*Lime*]

Soo.... what did you do to get that pulled on you? How'd you lose your cleric abilities and why were your teammates robbing you?

If this really was just spontaneous dickery, I'd say Pun-Pun and find a new group.

[Darius Kane]

RUN, my boy. RUN while you still have some semblance of dignity left.

[Deophaun]

The DM is letting me use Vow of Poverty, because at this point, I don't have any equipment either, because a dude in the group robbed them from me while another did hold person on me.
See, my first and only reaction to that would be to slide my character sheet to the DM, stand up, thank everyone for their time, and leave. I'm curious as to why you're persisting in this when you claim to be sick of this behavior (which tells me you aren't there for the PvP).

[Vizzerdrix]

No Game > Bad Game.

Next session, just go see a movie instead, unless you enjoy getting screwed over by everyone at the table.

Just to satisfy my morbid curiosity, I'd like to hear the full tale of how you managed to find yourself in such a predicament.

[Andezzar]

Be evil ;), worship some god that requirs sacrfice...and when it is your turn to stand guard for the night....stab your teamates...Make a paladin. Find a secluded spot and utter the following words: Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu.
Then fiat whatever you want to happen to the campaign.

[killem2]

I drew from the deck of magical things,

I think saying you were screwed over is a bit misleading and this talk of pun puning and trying to get back at the DM is a bit sour grapes to me. :smallmad:

[The Glyphstone]

I think saying you were screwed over is a bit misleading and this talk of pun puning and trying to get back at the DM is a bit sour grapes to me. :smallmad:

Have you ever looked at the Deck of Many Things? What he's described is far, far worse than the worst thing you can ever get from the Deck...and if the OP is worded correct, he got 'screwed over' before he drew from the Deck. His Deck reward was 9 free levels (which also isn't in the DoMT).

And that's ignoring being mugged by his own party members.

[Andezzar]

I think saying you were screwed over is a bit misleading and this talk of pun puning and trying to get back at the DM is a bit sour grapes to me. :smallmad:The screwing happened before:

I'm a level 1 wizard (got revoked of clerical powers, so the dm made me a level 1 wizard), whose ability scores were all reduced to 10 because of a DM's ruling.Especially the underlined part, but even making someone a viable level 1 character is way out of line for acting outside the deity's ethos.

Darn Swordsages.

[Karoht]

If this is a r/l game, I would acccedently spill soda on everyones character sheets
...at least twice a session.
Also, there would be the famous Pizza Sauce Incident that none of them would ever forget.

(Totally not serious suggestions)

[Story]

Why did the DM include a DoMT anyway? They're infamous for inevitably destroying campaigns one way or another.

[obryn]

I know I'm late to this party, but approaching this as, "How can I throw this screwing back in the face of my vengeful and ridiculous DM in-game" is a crazy way to approach this.

99.9% of the time, the best way to handle in-game awful behavior - on either side of the screen - is with an out-of-game conversation. You're all playing a game together, and if it's not fun for the people involved ... well, I don't often say this, but you're playing your elfgames wrong. :smallwink:

Honestly, though this group just sounds kind of broken, and as mentioned above, I'd try to find more entertaining ways to spend your free time. Like finding another D&D group, maybe, or starting a game up, yourself.

-O

[Larkas]

One thing that is missing from all the above advice is a way to make yourself immune to mind-affecting stuff. You were screwed over by hold person, and you can be sure you will be so again. I'd point you towards some item giving you that, but you're taking VoP, so that is not an option. Try to find a race with that trait. At the very least, try not to be a humanoid, so you're only vulnerable to hold monster.

On a parting note: your DM already made you lose your cleric status. Be careful not to lose your exalted feats. Specially important: do not lose your exalted feats for seeking vengeance!

[The Glyphstone]

I know I'm late to this party, but approaching this as, "How can I throw this screwing back in the face of my vengeful and ridiculous DM in-game" is a crazy way to approach this.

99.9% of the time, the best way to handle in-game awful behavior - on either side of the screen - is with an out-of-game conversation. You're all playing a game together, and if it's not fun for the people involved ... well, I don't often say this, but you're playing your elfgames wrong. :smallwink:

Honestly, though this group just sounds kind of broken, and as mentioned above, I'd try to find more entertaining ways to spend your free time. Like finding another D&D group, maybe, or starting a game up, yourself.

-O

The OP didn't like that idea, though.

[silverwolfer]

why were you mugged?

[GnomeGninjas]

As a druid wildshape player, I can say, I have a great "FU button" build.

Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 2/Nature's Warrior 3. You will be great in melee, despite low stats. You should be using a Cave Troll form (MM III).

Although if you want complete cheese, "FU" form, ask your DM if you can add the Chicken flooded flaw (from Dragon Mag, I know, nothing from Dragon Mags, but this one is great, not necessary, but a fantastic addition). 50% chance when you go to pull something out of something else (an item out of your pack, draw a weapon, pull something out of a drawer) you have a 50% chance to pull out a chicken. You get an extra feat too!

Then take the form of a Dusk Giant from Heroes of Horror page 137. You now have infinite chickens to eat. Eat them until you grow to 24 HD. (Allowed by the wildshaping feature of "you get the extraordinary attacks") and the extra HD give you the SLA of the dusk giants, as well as having a 54 str, 35 con, all the feats of a level 24 character, all the hp, all the stat increases, all the save increases, every level dependent bonus. And then kill them in one hit, with a 1D8 +26 (22 for str damage and a +4 from Nature's Warrior class feature nature's armament, two of them, granting a +4 together). And then you have Dimension Door and energy drain 1/day, 2/day shield and slow, 3/day enervation and ray of enfeeblement, all at Caster Level 24, SLA

And then, you have 24 HD, so you have the loophole there to shift into 24 HD monsters. With the +4 HD for the purpose of wildshaping necklace, you can do 28 HD forms, the Gerivar (MM III page 53) is a VERY nice 28 HD form.

All at actual level 10
It is "chicken infested" not "chicken flooded".

[The Glyphstone]

It also requires 1 level of Commoner to take.

[Zeful]

My personal suggestion is this:

If your DM doesn't know about Pun Pun, ask if you can have a race change to Kobold...

...and pull Pun Pun on him. Then proceed to wipe the floor with the asshats who have been picking on you.

Then go find a group that doesn't suck the sausage.

This is terrible advice. If you're going to destroy the campaign, at least do it in a way that makes it seem less like your having a temper tantrum.

Buy a waraxe and force the character that's been stealing from you to make a DC 40 fortitude save or instantly die (assuming he's not dead from the 30 free damage on him). When everyone flips over it, play up the whole cosmically screwed character who's finally snapped and turned into a sociopath.

By bringing up something like the Coup de grace rules and pointing out how trivial it is to kill anyone in the party, they'll either stop screwing around with you, or just kick you out of the group. Either one is a better option than currently.

[Story]

There's always Maximized Shivering Touch. Try to hold it until you can touch them willingly, negating AC.

[Andezzar]

There's always Maximized Shivering Touch. Try to hold it until you can touch them willingly, negating AC.While it will hamper everyone, it only is a "don't save, just die"-spell against targets with Dex < 19.

[GnomeGninjas]

While it will hamper everyone, it only is a "don't save, just die"-spell against targets with Dex < 19.

You don't die. Dex damage doesn't kill you, only con does.

[Phelix-Mu]

You don't die. Dex damage doesn't kill you, only con does.

Dex damage is much funnier, though.:smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

You don't die. Dex damage doesn't kill you, only con does.

Isn't that kind of like saying jumping from a plane without a parachute doesn't kill you? 0 Dex isn't instantly lethal, but you are paralyzed and vulnerable to a CdG.

[Immabozo]

Isn't that kind of like saying jumping from a plane without a parachute doesn't kill you? 0 Dex isn't instantly lethal, but you are paralyzed and vulnerable to a CdG.

I thought reducing any stat to 0 killed you.

0 str, not strong enough the breath
0 con, that one's obvious
0 dex, I dont remember the reasoning I heard
0 int, you're brain dead
0 wis, in a coma (or something like that)
0 cha, at this point you are driven to committing suicide.

[The Glyphstone]

I thought reducing any stat to 0 killed you.

0 str, not strong enough the breath
0 con, that one's obvious
0 dex, I dont remember the reasoning I heard
0 int, you're brain dead
0 wis, in a coma (or something like that)
0 cha, at this point you are driven to committing suicide.

Nope. In Pathfinder, any stat at 0 renders you unconscious, but in 3.5:


A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Nope. In Pathfinder, any stat at 0 renders you unconscious, but in 3.5:

Do note, however, that you can coup de grace anybody in all of those conditions (unless they are immune to critical hits). So while DEX 0 doesn't kill anybody, it does put them one full-round action away from it. :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Do note, however, that you can coup de grace anybody in all of those conditions (unless they are immune to critical hits). So while DEX 0 doesn't kill anybody, it does put them one full-round action away from it. :smallwink:

That was my point above. It's not falling out of planedropping to Dex 0 that kills you, it's hitting the groundthe CdG that follows.

[Lonely Tylenol]

That was my point above. It's not falling out of planedropping to Dex 0 that kills you, it's hitting the groundthe CdG that follows.

I'm pretty sure there's a thread about failing obvious Spot checks somewhere on the first page here.

Think I'll go re-read it.

[Darth_Versity]

Hey guys, here's my situation...

(got revoked of clerical powers, so the dm made me a level 1 wizard)... ability scores were all reduced to 10 because of a DM's ruling... a dude in the group robbed them from me while another did hold person on me... I'm tired of their bull****...

Wow... just... wow. I haven't read the the rest of the thread but that is just ridiculous.

I rarely, if ever, suggest quitting, but I think there may be a reason to do so here. No DM anywhere in the world should allow this stuff to happen unless it is outlined early on that bad s**t will happen to you (and then I just wouldn't bother rolling a character).

Before making some hulking monstrosity I would talk to the DM and explain that what is currently happening to your character isn't fair. Yes you have got a lot of bonuses, but that was down to pure chance with a deck of many things, the bad stuff has actually been done to you by the DM and other players on purpose.

If he listens and agrees to fix things then you should give him a chance and make a normal character. If he ignores your plea (calls you a girl or a sissy or anything like that) i would either make a monster of pure destruction and ruin the game (childish, but it gets the point across) or just leave. (Alternativly I would play along, then when chance comes run my own game and do all the same things to the previous DM.)

I don't know if that is helpful or not, but I personaly wouldn't spend time with people that seem to make me the butt of their jokes.

[/rant]

As for an actual character suggestion, try a Wild Shape Ranger, going into Master of Many Forms. Pretty much doesn't need ability scores and you can get some bonus feats or abilities on ranger by giving up spellcasting (which you can't use with a WIS 10)

Most exalted feats are pretty useless, but they all provide some minor bonuses.

[Immabozo]

That was my point above. It's not falling out of planedropping to Dex 0 that kills you, it's hitting the groundthe CdG that follows.

I guess you are very right. Thanks!


If he listens and agrees to fix things then you should give him a chance and make a normal character.

I'd make a character you still can break, but easily can remain a normal character, such as a wildshaper. I haven't tried ranger wildshaper, but I can't imagine it being better than a druid, if for nothing else than the earlier acquisition of wildshape

[Nullmancer]

Sorry, Silverwolfer, for my lack of replying to you. Here is how it all went down.

I was a level 1 cleric, and this necromancer was screwing around with the group. We are an all evil and/or neutral group (except I was the only good person in the group...as always), on a quest to kill undead, and here comes moron with his skeleton pet walking right into town. The group and the necromancer were arguing so much, that I got tired of it, and turned (destroyed) the skeleton. The necromancer got pissed at me, but let it fly. That was our first encounter with each other. The following week that we met up, he disguised a skeleton in large flowing robes and a mask to hide the facial features. Me being a cleric and having my suspicions, I turned the inconspicuous creature, and once again, it died.

Now, here is the screwy part. The necromancer casts a ray of enfeeblement, and rolling a 1, the dm had him confirm the roll. The necromancer rolled another 1, and all of my scores got turned to 10. I pulled out my morningstar and critted him (i do love luck...ugh). So here I am, standing next to a dark elf with a deck of many things and a blob of flesh in the floor. I pull five cards (since this character is already a waste), and somehow, a reduction of experience below first level turns you into a wight. I got undead controlled by the dark elf, regained control of my body through a wish (that the dark elf made), turned myself back to human (through another wish), and wished for my stats back to what they were before the necromancer failed his spell.

Somehow, the wish went wonky, and I turned into a level 1 wizard with all 10s. The other three cards gave me a level 4 fighter, gave me a castle, and then removed me of all of my wealth (including the castle). I said "**** it", and drew five more cards.

I gained 50,000 exp, an additional level 4 henchman, one wish (that I used to send the necromancer's soul to Azzagrat (Graz'zt's three layers of the Abyss (I didn't want another spell backfiring on me, so I got my own little taste of revenge)), and the last two cards cancelled each other out.

I then picked the most powerful class in the game, and I'm sticking with it. If people screw with me, I have a level 4 warrior with nice stats, a level 4 cleric, that is still higher level than anyone in the group, and a level 9 druid on crack.

[Story]

It sounds like you're playing with a lot of houserules. Ray of Enfeeblement can't actually do that. (Also, the DoMT doesn't work like that, but by that point it didn't really matter).

[TuggyNE]

Now, here is the screwy part. The necromancer casts a ray of enfeeblement, and rolling a 1, the dm had him confirm the roll. The necromancer rolled another 1, and all of my scores got turned to 10.

How in the world does a temporary penalty to a specified score get turned into super-permanent stat changes to all scores? Especially on a double fumble!

[Susano-wo]

Yeah, um, outside of the game, are you guys friends? cause these guys are being *******s (well, certainly the DM, now hat I think baout it, the other players haven't been reported to have done anything particularly terrible)

For one thing, rape is something that needs to be approached with delicacy, and you need to make sure your whole group is ok with having it be a possible outcome. seriously.

Though there definitely seems to be some kind of disconnect going on, because it sounds like the other players all like to play neutral/evil characters (will exercise extreme self control here and refrain from speculating as to why:smallwink:), and you play a good character generally. This is not going to work in a co-op situation.

and are we understanding this correctly? the necro fumbled his ray and somehow you got all of your stats turned to 10? :smalleek:

Though I do gotta say that I laughed when you dusted the skeleton again. priceless!:smallbiggrin:

[absolmorph]

Now, here is the screwy part. The necromancer casts a ray of enfeeblement, and rolling a 1, the dm had him confirm the roll. The necromancer rolled another 1, and all of my scores got turned to 10.
My advice?

Bite the DM as hard as you can. This may not solve any of your problems, but it will be highly satisfying.

[Nullmancer]

Yeah, the ray of enf. fumble did happen. And now you guys know why I want revenge against these guys. For future notice though, I don't suggest we continue the sexual harassment bit. I just got reported for somehow using quotes and showing inappropriate language. For those that posted in response to my post, I suggest you change the wording, or delete the post outright. I don't want you guys getting in trouble for something I provoked.

[Story]

Well if you're playing with houserules, can you explain how they work? It's kind of hard to give advice when your group doesn't play by the rules.

Here's what I'd do.
1. Get Ray of Enfeeblement
2. Get lots of luck rerolls
3. Drain everyone else

[Vizzerdrix]

Yeah, the ray of enf. fumble did happen.

Yeah. Stupid fumble rule (but then again they all are).

What I'd do. Get a want of ray of enfeeblement and spam it on them until you get a nat 1 and see how they like it. You'll need to shackle them in their sleep or restrain them in some other fasion first.

[Story]

Ways to get rerolls off the top of my head

Luck domain power
Cat domain power
Fatespinner 4
Alter Fortune (costs 200xp each time)
Unluck
Luckblades (buy as many as you can. You don't technically have to wield them)
Choose Destiny (9th level spell so you probably can't get it)

[The Glyphstone]

I just want to know how the heck a fumble makes the spell more powerful.

[Vizzerdrix]

I know right. Can you imagine what a fumble on an enervation would do.

[TuggyNE]

I know right. Can you imagine what a fumble on an enervation would do.

Better yet, fumble a wish. Blow up the universe!

How you can fumble a wish, I don't know, but I'm sure someone can find a way. :smallyuk:

[Deophaun]

I just want to know how the heck a fumble makes the spell more powerful.
Not only makes it more powerful, but more powerful on a target it missed.

[Story]

That reminds me of a 4ed game I played once. One of the players decided to try to use the Warlock's curse on the forest we were in, which caused a giant Treant or something to come and attack everyone.

Anything's possible when you ignore the rules.

I'm on a horse.

[TuggyNE]

Not only makes it more powerful, but more powerful on a target it missed.

... I think I know what it is. Confirmed critical fumble against a target means you automatically do aggravated critical damage against the nearest ally, which would (in some interpretations) be the cleric the OP was playing. :smalltongue:

Tell me it ain't plausible! :smallyuk:

[Story]

Friends don't let friends play with crit fumble rules. Unless it's supposed to be a comedy game.

[Andezzar]

... I think I know what it is. Confirmed critical fumble against a target means you automatically do aggravated critical damage against the nearest ally, which would (in some interpretations) be the cleric the OP was playing. :smalltongue:Unless I'm mistaken the RoE was cast by the enemy on the OP's character. So the target would not have been the nearest ally.

Fumble rules are bad as they are, but getting a much better result for failing fumbling than for a success is just plain ludicrous.

The more I read about the situation the more I'm convinced that the best course of action would be to leave, no more revenge or other shenanigans, just pack your stuff, leave and never come back.

[TuggyNE]

Unless I'm mistaken the RoE was cast by the enemy on the OP's character. So the target would not have been the nearest ally.

Ah, but in this case, it was an intra-party dispute! So the cleric was both an ally and an enemy! Well, it could have been that....


Fumble rules are bad as they are, but getting a much better result for failing fumbling than for a success is just plain ludicrous.

No argument here.

[Sith_Happens]

Better yet, fumble a wish. Blow up the universe!

How you can fumble a wish, I don't know, but I'm sure someone can find a way. :smallyuk:

Wish to fumble your next Wish.:smallwink:

[Mystic Muse]

Do yourself a favor. Just leave. These people sound like jerks.

[animewatcha]

Since there seems to be 10 levels of 'casting'. 10th level 'wizard ( whatever combination of PRC ), there should be plenty of room for Locate City Bomb. No? Proceed to Fell drain the whole city. Wight or whatever are supposed to rise a day later. Fell drain metamagic doesn't last the whole day so there is no negative levels as a 'source' for wights 24 hours later. Rerolling characters would have to take place in another city while your wizard can loot the whole city of yours.

Do wizzies get their own 'infinite' storage space by level 10?

[killem2]

Friends don't let friends play with crit fumble rules. Unless it's supposed to be a comedy game.

Mileage varies. My group loves paizo fumble and crit decks. Both sides of the table are subject to them. :smallannoyed:

[Alefiend]

Fell drain metamagic doesn't last the whole day so there is no negative levels as a 'source' for wights 24 hours later.

AFAIK, all you need to rise as an undead is to have died from energy drain; it doesn't matter if the power source that caused it is still ongoing.

[Threadnaught]

Hey guys, here's my situation.

I'm a level 1 wizard (got revoked of clerical powers, so the dm made me a level 1 wizard), whose ability scores were all reduced to 10 because of a DM's ruling. I drew from the deck of magical things, and I gained 9 levels in whatever I choose, two followers (and 4th level fighter, and a 4th level cleric or something), and an extra level in the next thing I kill.

The DM is letting me use Vow of Poverty, because at this point, I don't have any equipment either, because a dude in the group robbed them from me while another did hold person on me.

Let's see, it looks like the DM gave you a Wizard because you've got d4 as your HD, with stats at 10, you're not much better than a Commoner. Vow of Poverty, because they read somewhere online about how bad a Feat it is. Deck of Many Things, because you were likely to die to something by the rules.

Tell everyone at the table to go **** themselves and die, then leave. Don't even come up with a polite alternative, they don't sound like they deserve one. This group makes me think of a session (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23784) I first read about rather recently. With the exception being, in this case it's the whole group and not just the DM.

Find a new group, if you don't know anyone irl who is willing to play outside of these guys, then search for a PbP game online such as right here, or if you have some other way of contacting people online, I'm sure there's a group somewhere who'll have you. Hopefully one that won't mess you around for the sake of it.


Edit: I want to send you a PM, but I can't. It okay if I email you, or that disabled too?

[The Glyphstone]

Nothing can equal Lanky's game session.

[TuggyNE]

Mileage varies. My group loves paizo fumble and crit decks.

Paizo decks seem to be nearly tolerable, due to a lack of truly stupid possibilities. I wouldn't recommend them, but they're nowhere near as bad as the most classic varieties.


Both sides of the table are subject to them.

I'd think that would be assumed (seriously, who would apply them only to the PCs?), but it doesn't change the fact that more randomness and more weirdness works in favor of the weaker side, which is just about always the monsters, not the PCs. :smallwink: