[PATHFINDER] Help me build my Half-Orc Bounty Hunter With Guns & Bombs

[Prophes0r]

So, My class schedule this semester lets me come back to my RP group on Sundays. They are playing a Pathfinder campaign so we can learn the system enough to play Kingmaker. I'm not sure If these characters will transition into that campaign or not. I haven't played d20 in like 7 years.

Other characters.
LVL 7 Rogue - Sneaking and shooting bows
LVL 7 Bard - Manipulates people
LVL 6 Halfling Monk - Beats the Crap Out of things (something about killing an Ent in 1 round??!!)
Worthless lvl 6 Pre-made Fighter/Conjurer (Player is all fart jokes and poo throwing. I don't know why he is allowed to keep coming back)

They have little to no spell-casting, or a durable melee character. They are not in any way optimized.

Here's my constraints.


My GM likes the idea of an alchemist and/or gunslinger. And we haven't tested these yet, so i gotta take at least 1 level of each.
The party is poorly optimized, Character can't be TOO good at anything, but can be pretty good at as many things as possible (IE no cheese, no single feat focus to destroy things, no using a Large musket for 3d6 damage at only -4 to hit)
Lvl 6 with 16,000 gold. If I have a crafting skill, I can make gear during character creation at material cost, but I can't use any gold I already had prior to getting the Crafting Skill. Example: If I get Craft Weapons at level 5, I could spend at most 5500 gold on materials to craft weapons with.
At the rate we play, and the number of simultaneous campaigns, this character will most likely never get past 10 if he EVER gets there. Build it like its going to be played lvl 6-8. I can't afford to "hold out" for an awesome combination that comes together at lvl 9.
No Followers, it takes too long to resolve combat with 5 players if everyone has a whole squad of followers + summons. It's a table rule.
All official Piazo material is in, no 3rd party splat books.

GM rulings:
Alchemists are casters since them willfully channel arcane energy. All bonuses and penalties apply as if they were casters.
Double barreled muskets have the same range increment as regular muskets.


Description


He is a bounty hunter.
Lawful Neutral. No qualms about doing whatever is necessary to secure the bounty. Has never broken a contract. HAS killed previous employers, but only when they had bounties on their heads.
Unless the bill pays more for "Alive" it is usually too much trouble.


Stats

These are rolled stats not point buy. I can shuffle them If needed but can't outright change them.
Str - 14
Dex - 16
Con - 15 (bumped to 16 at lvl 4)
Int - 20
Wis - 16
Cha - 12


Race

Half-Orc - GM likes the flavor, decent synergy with Alchemist.


Traits

Reactionary - Going first is good...
Highlander - Stealth as a class skill is good considering the rest of the party can already sneak well.


Class

Gunslinger (GunTank + Pistolero) 1

Gunslinger - Martial Weapons + Gunsmithing + Quick Clear
GunTank - All Armor Proficiencies + All Shield Proficiencies + 25% chance to avoid a Crit/Sneak Attack for 1 Grit.
Pistolero - 1 Grit to deal 1d6 more damage, and a miss still Grazes for half. Lose 2 handed guns and Deadeye Deed.


Alchemist 5

Big bonus to Alchemy. I can hand out Cure-Light Wounds potions like candy at 15gp each.
Poison use (non lethal to be compatible with the party alignments)
Mutagen lasts 50 minutes. +2 Natural Armor and +4 to either Str/Dex/Con. I can't find where it says how many times I can make/use mutagens per day...
+Int Modifier (+5) to splash weapons, including bombs and bomb splash damage.
10 Bombs per day @ 3d6+7 damage (+1d6 if using Unstable Accelerant) w/ 9 Splash damage (10 if using Unstable Accelerant)
Extracts

6x Level 1
3x Level 2

Alchemical Allocation - Lets me drink a potion or Elixir, gaining it's effects, then spitting it back into the bottle to use again!


2 Discoveries

Unchosen
Unchosen


Feats - No Idea, I haven't played d20 in half a decade. Presumably things that make him even more of a utility. And/or things that enhance his bombs AND guns?

Unchosen
Unchosen
Unchosen


Skills

Maxed

Perception
UMD
Stealth?

How may skill points do I need in crafting/knowledge?
What skills are good enough with a 1 point dip? I'm assuming certain ones that you cant use without investment?


I plan on crafting most non-Magical gear since I can get it at 1/3 the stock cost. Makes sense to the character too. He is hyper-intelligent enough to pick up skills super fast (I'm getting 1 rank in 4-5 crafting skills and 4-5 knowledge skills). And He is very self sufficient since he moves around a lot.

Equipment?

Masterwork Double-Pistol

Distance enchant maybe?

Dragon pistol OR Blunderbuss with rock-salt cartridges for "When the bounty says alive"
Mithril Breastplate

Enchants?

Need a good melee weapon.
Handy Haversack
Standard bag of useful mundane stuff (chalk, charcoal, 50 feet of silk rope, ETC)
No clue on the rest. Only 16,000 gold to work with.

[Fable Wright]

Straight Alchemist would probably work fine; guns and potions are not exactly the best fitting combination. Alchemists can be ranged support or party support with potions.

[Prophes0r]

New Ruling. No poisons that kill. Could get me in trouble with one of the other characters in the party. Stunning to capture would be OK but nothing that kills or does HP damage.

I cant think of a good story justification for going Churigeon. But if I am going GS 5/Alch 1 it would be a good archetype to dip I think.

I'm realizing the party has basically no healing. 1 lvl of Alch would let me make potions with the party gold. Plus a Mutagen, Plus a few bombs. but I'd miss out on the Discovery.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Get the +1 to saves.

You said you need melee, so I suggest Vivisectionist and Beastmorph Alchemist. Prioritize strength. Use the beastmorph mutagen to gain flight and str bonus; take feral mutagen to fight with natural weapons if you want.

Alchemist 6

Stats:
Str 18 (20 after racial)
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 12

Discoveries: Wings (good as a back up when not using mutagen), Tumor Familiar (Compsognathus for +4 Initiative), Vestigial Arm or Tentacle (to hold a darkwood heavy shield for you), maybe Feral Mutagen

Feats: Power Attack...other stuff...

[Prophes0r]

EDITED first post. Game is canceled this week so I have until next week to flesh this guy out.

We are currently at the edge of the empire. There is a vast expanse of untamed forest that the local lord is currently building a road through to open up an eastern trade route. I think that this area will basically be the setting of the entire campaign. The superstitious locals apparently burned a "witch" in the town square last week, so extra arms and tentacles are out even if it didn't feel like pure cheese. Vivisectionist is out because it is CLEARLY for evil characters, even if its not listed as such. Vivisection literally means to dissect a living creature while trying to keep it alive as long as possible, purely for science. It's like torture, except instead of needing valuable information, you just want to go all serial killer like...

Fatal poisons are out due to the other characters alignment restrictions. So poison use has less weight than it would for a stock character. Does that make Chirurgion more useful in the end? or are there enough good non-lethal poisons?

I'd like to have a melee "Backup plan" but use guns/bombs as my go to.

Knowing my limited number of extracts per day, what should I have in my book? and what should I be prepared to use?

Is the +1 to saves from Sacred Tattoo, really worth giving up the extra durability that Ferocity provides? I'm assuming I can quaff a potion or 3 while I'm barely conscious, or pull the trigger one more time if I have to.

[Prophes0r]

hrm...

I just realized I'll basically never have access to level 2 infusions.

I think I need to back peddle a bit. I'm guessing that Alch 1 > Alch 5 is a MUCH bigger power shift than Gun 1 > Gun 5? Gunslinger seems a bit front-loaded.

GM has already latched on to the whole guns & bombs toting Half-Orc Bounty hunter. It has also grown on me as a character concept, so now I just need to figure out how to make sure I'm still "batman".

Knowing I'm not going to cheese a large musket, or get more than 1 level of Gunslinger, should I pick the Musket Master or Pistolero archetypes? Or just stick with the generic Gunslinger? I'll have 3 grit to work with, but less to use it on unless I spend a feat (if there are any I can even get with Gunslinger 1?).

[doko239]

If you're not married to the idea of being a Half-Orc, I'd say go Gnome and take the Experimental Gunsmith archetype from Advanced Race Guide, taking the Vial Launcher upgrade. You now have an underbarrel grenade launcher for your alchemist's bombs :smallbiggrin:

In either case, I'd say you'd want the Tanglefoot Bomb discovery if your schtick is to take them in alive.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Go Half-Orc Gunslinger 1 / Alchemist 5 (Grenadier)

With this build you infuse a piece of ammunition with a bomb and fire it. You can use this ability with a gun, letting you target touch-ac with your attack. You'll only attack once per round, but each attack will deal significant damage, you will be able to vary the elemental type of damage and you can add CC effects to the bomb.

The core of the build is picking up the Explosive Ammunition discovery at level 4. Note that this is somewhat poorly thought out, as the default interpretation of the discovery would let you load and fire a Ballista as a standard action but not a musket. If your GM will allow you to use a Two-Handed firearm with this ability then you should take the Musket Master archetype. If you need help convincing him let me know, I've got a valid argument on how to get around the restriction (one-handed ammo is the same as two-handed ammo).

Stat-wise, for pure optimization go with:
Str: 7
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 20 (19 +1 at level 4, Half Orc bonus place in Int)
Wis: 14
Cha: 7

Feats & Discoveries:
1) Gunslinger - Point Blank Shot
2) Alchemist - None
3) Alchemist - Precise Shot, Bomb Related Discovery
4) Alchemist - None
5) Alchemist - Focused Shot, Explosive Missile
6) Alchemist - None

In combat you use your move action to either get into position or use the Steady Aim deed (if you're a Musket Master) to increase your range increment by 10 ft. You attack once per round, either with a Focused Shot or an Explosive Shot.

Your Focused Shot targets touch AC, has a +8 attack bonus and deals 1D12 + 5 damage. Use it when you want to be careful with ammo. Your Explosive Shot deals 1D12 damage, plus 3D6 + 7 Fire Damage, also targeting touch AC. You also have used 1 Discovery to add some other benefit to this attack. It also deals 10 fire damage to anybody hit by the splash damage.

Use your extracts to boost your offensive capabilities, there are some good ones that boost your bombs. You can also grab a few for defensive abilities. You'll have 10 bombs per day, which should be enough for 2 combats per day. You'll get more bombs per day as you level, and the bombs keep getting stronger. Spend the rest of your feats how you like, I would recommend grabbing Extra Discovery a couple of times and maybe Extra Bombs if you find you're burning through them too quickly.

Almost forgot, with your high Int you're going to have a ton of skill points and the 1 level dip into Gunslinger gives you some nice class skills for that role.

Your GM also seems to have crafting rules somewhat confused. Generally items you craft for yourself are half-cost. As a Gunslinger you also have additional benefits. You can craft guns and ammo without a skill (or skill checks). Guns are half cost and you only pay 10% of the cost of ammo. You may want to invest in Craft Alchemy though, as your archetype lets you infuse your ammo with the effects of Alchemical Thrown weapons. Don't forget to upgrade your free starting gun to Masterwork (300 gold). You may also want to craft a Rifle (2500 gold, 3 days of work).

[Prophes0r]

Those stats I posted were the ones I rolled, not a point buy. So I can't change them, only their order.

Remember that the goal was not to be REALLY good at one thing, but to be a "generalist". To be reasonably good at as many things as possible.

Point blank shot seems reasonable, since it would effect bombs and guns. Isn't there a feat or discovery that lets me choose what squares in the blast radius are not hit?

I looked into explosive missile, but it seems like i'm taking things and making them way too focused. which may make that one ability slightly better, but reduces the effectiveness of everything else by more than I would gain.

[Prophes0r]

Still no advice on archetypes for the 1 level gunslinger dip?

Also, He honestly doesn't care about taking them alive. If the bounty specifies "Dead or Alive" and there is no pay difference, he probably kills them unless they give themselves up, or he can turn them in locally. If the bounty pays MORE for bringing them in alive (and many do) then he tries to do so if they aren't being too difficult.

I can't decide where the 14 and 12 should go between Str and Cha. Melee is going to be a bit iffy as it is. But the rest of the party is rolling around with 8-16s in their stats anyway.

[Prophes0r]

OK, for traits...

Reactionary is a given. +2 to initiative is great, and makes sense for the character.

For the second one I'm trying to decide between...

Highlander - You gain a +1 trait bonus on Stealth checks, and Stealth is always a class skill for you. This trait bonus increases to +2 in hilly or rocky areas.
Magical Knack - Your caster level in gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice.

Both make sense for his back-story. He has a **** ton of skill points per level (9) and stealth is probably useful. The other 3 "real" party member have stealth, so this may help them all move through areas undetected, without him becoming a liability. On the other hand, bringing his caster level up to his character level could help his extracts maintain their power, and last longer.

[Blyte]

perhaps inquisitor with the black powder domain (or whatever they call it)?

inquisitors just seem to lend to bounty hunting.

sorry never built an inquisitor, gunslinger, or alchemist.. so don't have a lot of input. Just figured you might consider the inquisitor.

[Prophes0r]

I looked at the gunslinger inquisitor archetype. but they are specifically anti-arcane magic in nature. And the base of the character will be an alchemist, which my GM has ruled as an arcane caster.

I think I need to totally redefine my request. I think I misarticulated it.

[Dissonance]

Your going to want the musket master archetype to help balance out the speed of the musket. Otherwise your going to be very slow.

[Brock Samson]

I would reconsider the Vivisectionist archetype - it's just a name after all, it doesn't mean your character takes people apart, perhaps he's quite adept and healing them, and in knowing that he knows their vitals too, hence he can sneak attack them.

The Ninja doesn't necessarily auto-slit your throat while you sleep after all, he can even take Vows of X.

Then look into the Sap Adept and Sap Mastery feats. These will let you double your sneak attack damage when you use non-lethal bludgeoning weapon, this means you get to knock them out really easily and take them alive.

So your character is quite adept at healing people, and you focus on (very effective) non-lethal damage instead of killing people. Sounds like not an evil character to me. Certainly less so than the Rogue who just shoots people to death.

[doko239]

I would reconsider the Vivisectionist archetype - it's just a name after all, it doesn't mean your character takes people apart, perhaps he's quite adept and healing them, and in knowing that he knows their vitals too, hence he can sneak attack them.

The Ninja doesn't necessarily auto-slit your throat while you sleep after all, he can even take Vows of X.

Then look into the Sap Adept and Sap Mastery feats. These will let you double your sneak attack damage when you use non-lethal bludgeoning weapon, this means you get to knock them out really easily and take them alive.

So your character is quite adept at healing people, and you focus on (very effective) non-lethal damage instead of killing people. Sounds like not an evil character to me. Certainly less so than the Rogue who just shoots people to death.

This is actually extremely effective with a Merciful weapon and some Sniper's Goggles. Imagine a prison sniper using rubber bullets.

[Brock Samson]

Under the effects of Mind Blank and Greater Invisibility. Mind Blank protects you from See Invisibility, if you're over 120 feet away from someone with True Seeing they can't see you, and you're probably farther away than invisibility purge will reach.

Ultimate. Sniper.

[Prophes0r]

Comparing the Vivisectionist and ninja is not really the same. Ninja can mean many things. They were magicians who used smoke and fire effects. They were stealthy spies and assassins. Vivisectionists, both in their flavor and mechanics literally torture people by taking them apart while they are still alive.

So it's more like comparing a Vivisectionist to a class archetype named "Serial Rapist". No matter how much you try and stretch the archetype, or justify the things they do, they are still getting their powers from raping people.

I really appreciate your advice on classes and races. But I'm already done with that aspect of the character.

Equipment suggestions?

Handy Haversack
Unstable Accelerate - Better bombs

[Prophes0r]

Remember I'm not trying to be great at anything. I'm just trying to be passable at as many things as possible. Like the classic "Be Batman" guides. So here are some more specific goals.

Assume that I don't know any of the "tricks" of pathfinder. I've never used a combat maneuver.

How do I make my 5 levels of Alchemist make me as good a general caster as possible?

How can I use my 1 level of Gunslinger to make me decent at medium ranged combat?

How can I hold my own in melee. Other than relying on my mutagen obviously.

[Prophes0r]

I updated the first post to better track what else I need help with.

[Dissonance]

Make sure you take a bunch of mundane alchemical items. the items are useful by themselves. Preparing alchemical cartridges is also a good way to deliver some nasty status effects. It would also fit with the "batman" feel your going for by having an item/bullet for a variety of situations.

Making yourself a good general caster will require 2 things. First is the magical knack trait to keep your casting level up. Second is selecting extracts that can be used for multiple purposes or that cover areas that are not already covered by your gun and items. A good ones available to you would be alter self. (alter self gives you a bunch of fun little senses and other things to fit your need)

You are already a monster at mid-long range combat with your guns and bombs and items. the feat deadly aim is like power attack for ranged weapons, which should apply to both your bombs and guns.

Extracts can go a long way in making you semi-competent in melee. Enlarge/reduce person, all your buff options, and touch injection are cute little ways to melee. Otherwise you will probably need to waste your mutagen on melee. You don't want to be in melee if you can help it.

[Prophes0r]

We are using emerging firearm rules. So only early firearms.

Wow, I didnt add the "Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide" to PCGen. So I didn't see the Grenadier archetype.

Lets list out some pros and cons of these archetypes all are mutually exclusive.

Chirugeon

Pro

I can infuse cure extracts without having to take the discovery
Free "Skill Focus (Heal)"
Always do minimum damage when using heal. Stuff like removing hooks and barbs.
If I actualy get to level 10 Alchemist, I get "breath of Life" as a spell, and it can get infused as a cure spell.

Con

Lose Poison use
Lose Poison resistance +4

I end up gaining +2 @ Alchemist 2
+4 @ Alchemist 8

Lose Poison Immunity



BeastMorph

Pro

When using Mutagen, get an ability from Alter self. Adds more utility to mutagens
Level 6 in Alchemist gets me 2 abilities from Beast Shape I (includes all abilities from Alter Self).
If I ever get to Alchemist 10 I get 3 abilities from Beast Shape II

Con

Lose Swift Alchemy - Makes having tons of utility alchemy items a bit harder to keep stocked.
Lose Swift Poisoning - Not that painful considering you also...
Lose Poison resistance +2/+4/+6 and poison immunity



Grenadier

Pro

Proficiency in 1 Martial Weapon - Worthless since I already have all Martial Weapons from Gunslinger.
Alchemical Weapon - infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action.
Free Discovery - Precise Bombs
Directed Blast - Bomb can become a cone attack...Only 1 target gets hit with the primary charge, others are splash. Meh
If I ever reach Alchemist 10 my bombs stagger if they crit. Fort save negates.

Con

Lose Brew potion - This one hurts enough that I feel I'd need to spend a feat to get this again.
Lose all Poison Resistance
Lose Poison use
Lose Swift Poisoning
Lose Poison Immunity



After looking at the poisons, There seem to be some cheap ones that cause unconsciousness that poison use is a decent feature. Being able to make cure light potions means that the infusions from Chirugeon arent that attractive.

[Prophes0r]

I've re-read everywhere I can find that lists mutagen. Can I really make 1, use it, then after it wears off make another and use it? I cant see anywhere it says X per day...

Granted, it takes 1 hour to brew a mutagen, so its unrealistic to do it between encounters. But it lasts nearly an hour right now, so if we are chaining encounters, it should last 2-3 anyway.

In this case should I switch the 14 from Str to Cha?

[Prophes0r]

I'm planning on paying to scribe all the useful Level 1 extracts with my character creation gold.

I'm assuming I should also pay for all 5 stat boost extracts at level 2 as well. For utility and so I can brew them as needed.

I need to start being careful with my gold at this point though. Mithril armor costs a **** ton. But I'm going to see if I'm allowed to craft it, and pay to have it enchanted separately.

At least the Large Masterwork Double-Pistol only cost me 300g

[Prophes0r]

Yuuuuuup. I can make Items and pay for the Magical properties (at full price per property). That saves me quite a bit of gold.

Darkwood Large Shield?

I also noticed that its actually cheaper for me to pay 10/40gp each to scribe first/second level extracts, and pay 50% for the potions by brewing them myself than to buy them.

I also looked up merciful. Would be FANTASTIC on my rock-salt Dragon Pistol. But even with my crafting discount it would cost over 4k. That is too much an investment for a secondary weapon at this point. I could actually load it with real shot though. Then just turn off the non lethal damage if I needed a cone weapon, without having to reload.

How many of each "Special" ammo do you think I need?

Adamantine
Silver
Tracer


Also, I wonder if I can convince my GM to let me melt down silver coins to make silver ammo, or to silver coat ammo.

[Dissonance]

You will want a decent amount of silver and cold iron ammo. about 10 each or so. admantine is a little more severely priced than the others so maybe about 3-5 of it because it can pass DR.

tracer rounds are not as important because you already have bombs to deal fire damage. If you want them for flavor I would lump them with the silver and cold iron ammo at around 10.

Adjust as needed.

[Prophes0r]

Tracer Bullet

These +1 firearm bullets deal no damage, but instead cause a pale glow to outline the target, granting the effect of a faerie fire spell and causing the target to take a –2 penalty to AC against ranged attacks. These effects last for 1d4 rounds.

I'm also looking at Weapon Blanch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Weapon-Blanch).

Coats 1 melee weapon or 10 rounds of ammunition per "dose". Lasts 1 attack (perfectly fine for bullets).

Adamantine - 100gp
Ghost Salt (Ghost Touch) - 200gp
Cold-Iron - 50gp
Silver - 5gp


So, given that you can make mundane Items at 1/3 the cost, and Alchemical Items at 1/2 the cost.

20 rounds of Weapon Blanched Adamantine Bullets

1gp x 7 = 21 bullets, 1 left over
50gp x 2 Adamantine Weapon Blanch
107gp


I could also mix and match. Silver bullets with Adamantine Weapon Blanche count as both.

[Prophes0r]

Is there really no better weapon without extra feats than the boring old longsword?

I have also decided that for flavor reasons, he does not limit his bounties to strictly human(iod) targets. He will take any legally sanctioned bounties on men, but also on monsters if the pay is right. He will also take contracts from private citizens if he does not think they will get him into legal trouble. Should make it easier to hook him into the local happenings, and get him into the party a bit easier.

[Prophes0r]

At 4,000gp is a +2 dex belt or a +2 Int headband going to gain me much? Does it justify spending 1/4 of my gold?

[Larpus]

Concerning your overarching question on mutagen, you're right, there's absolutely nothing to keep you from using multiple doses per day as they already have the restriction of 1 hour preparation, meaning that while you can have them up for a very long time, you can't have it up all the time, that's the balancing point.

Chirurgeon is quite meh, you don't lose much, but the gained abilities aren't anything you'll truly be using: being bomb-based means you'll be bombing on your actions, so your "target: self" melee buffs will go to waste unless you take Infusion, but that takes away from the main Chirurgeon perk.

Beastmorph is really more for the melee Alchemist and, being a Half-Orc, you won't get anything remarkable for your mutagen until Alchemist 6. Still, ability to fly with mutagen is pretty nifty and can save you a discovery.

Grenadier is possibly the best archetype for a ranged-based Alchemist (bar specific concepts), Alchemical Weapon is a nice substitute for poison and something to do when not bombing, Precise Bombs is one you'll most probably want anyway, Directed Blast is actually pretty nice, I'll explain in a bit.

As for lost Brew Potion, it's not that great of a feat really, for in-battle healing, CLW potions won't do much good and higher level ones are really expensive (especially for you) and not that great healing for one lost standard action (ie. will hardly save one's life). While for out of combat healing, a CLW wand is much better heal per money or even one of Infernal Healing (you'll need to UMD it though) if your character is the type of neutral that overlooks minor evils for the sake of utility.

Another archetype to consider is Mindchemist, which can really rank up on the DC of bombs, at only the expense of Poison Use (yes, you keep the resistance/immunity).

Now on bombs...don't think of them as a way to do damage, by level 6 that damage-dealing thing should be considerably lower (at least due to how many bombs you throw per day). Don't get me wrong, it's great that they do damage, but their damage is not all that great, so instead you should use them for control with things like Smoke Bomb, Stink Bomb, Tanglefoot Bomb and later Confusion Bomb. As a result, the damage itself is not important (nice bonus tho) and the focus is effect area, so Directed Blast is a nice ability depending on situation.

Now for feats and discoveries, focus on ranged combat, don't have any experience at all with guns, but Cieyrin has a nice guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213035#post11719688) on that, while on discoveries, my advice is to go with Smoke Bomb and Stinky Bomb or Tanglefoot Bomb (Stinky is nastier in effect, but targets Fort).

Do note that most worthwhile discoveries (Tanglefoot Bomb included) are better than feats and you can get discoveries with the Extra Discovery feat so it's a good idea to use it to grab one or two extra discoveries in place of feats you don't need.

Not sure on item selection, I'm horrible with that. I'll say that you're better off pumping Int tho, as that boosts bombs/day, DC, spells/day; not only that, but you target touch AC (less Dex needed) and you can already buff Dex with Mutagen.


One thing I didn't quite understand: what does it mean for the Alchemist to have arcane issues? Like Arcane Spell failure? And for what features? Bombs?

[Prophes0r]

I think by arcane issues my GM means socially. The Town I'll be in did burn someone as a witch last week...

[Larpus]

Ah, ok then, that's pretty much implied in the class already. It's written that Alchemists are a dangerous lot and that most people prefer to trust an open trade thief than an Alchemist (which also helps to explain some archetypes and discoveries, such as Vivisectionist and Alchemical Simulacrum).

And thinking about it again, the reason Vivisectionist isn't Evil is because he practices with animals, not intelligent creatures, they even have an ability to use Knowledge (nature) instead of Heal to treat wounds and later one ways to turn animals into sentient beings or humanoid creatures; meaning that they just noticed how much animals' anatomy and humanoids' anatomy is similar.

I do agree that it's hard to imagine a Good-aligned Vivisectionist though.

[Prophes0r]

OK so I was wrong. When GM ruled that Alchemists were casters, gaining the benefits and penalties of casters, this is what he meant...

Benefits

Alchemists are considered Arcane casters for the purpose of feats and traits. So I can take craft magic arms and armor.
Alchemists can activate spell completion items for spells on his list as a wizard could.


Penalties

"Alchemical" bonuses are considered magical, and are affected by dispel magic. Unless this makes no sense for flavor reasons, such as the smoke from a smoke stick cannot be "dispelled". So, my mutagens can get dispelled, and don't work inside an anti magic field.


It's not a terrible trade off IMO.

A few more questions for you all.

Poison DCs seem really low to me, are they actually a COMPLETE waste of time at level 6+?

How do I get my will save up cheaply? I have not spent all my feats yet and i have a few thousand Gold left to spend, +4 will is going to get me (or the party) killed...

Half-Orcs are considered humans and Orcs for the purpose of taking feats etc. Since I was raised by Orcs, GM says I can take Orc preferred classes. Is the "+10 minutes to mutagens" racial significantly better than the +1/3 bomb damage one? I'm thinking it is.

Is the feat that grants 2 more traits really as OP as it sounds? Traits seem to be more than 1/2 as powerful as feats...

Seeing as we are in the middle of nowhere in the campaign world, magical items will be found, or crafted. Assuming the Bard Only takes Craft Wand, And raw materials are obtainable, are the items made with "Craft Wondrous Items" and "Craft magical arms/armor" worth more than the 2 feat slots?

[Larpus]

Indeed, not a bad trade at all, using spell completion is very good actually, scrolls galore! (might even be worthy to get the Scribe Scroll feat to cheaply expand your spells/days, especially for situational spells).

Also, ask if your DM allows custom magic items as per the rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation). That is very good, even if you don't try to break the game as it allows you to really upgrade some classes (for example, under similar ruling, my Alchemist made a pair of always on Expeditious Retreat boots for the party Paladin so he could run all over the place despite the heavy armor).

Even without customs, yes, Craft Wondrous Item is worth way more than a single feat, even in a campaign with easy access to magic item shops it might be worthwhile if your DM likes to use random generation for the shops' items.

Craft Magical Arms/Armor...not so much. Not that it's bad, but it's not as great nor that useful due to the limited effects that can be given. Only situation that could be useful is if there is already a spellcaster in the group with CWI.

Poison DCs are pathetically low and higher DC poisons are costly (and your DM might make the needed materials hard to find), which is why everyone agrees that using poisons is not feasible unless you have access to Minor Creation or, at the very least, Sticky Poison discovery. The former makes cost and supply irrelevant, the latter cuts expenses and supply difficulties by your Int bonus.

For increasing your Will, I can only think Iron Will and Improved, but I think that both is a bit intensive feat-wise (other than the alternate tattoo racial Half-Orcs have, which is a +1 in all saves). Other than that, there are cloaks that give bonuses to saves, not that cheap, but if you have CWI you can craft them yourself.

As for the alternate favored class bonus...they seem more or less even, will depend on whether you bomb a lot (and target creatures) or not, still, quite even as the +10min won't be that noticeable once you get to 1 hour or so.

And lastly, the 2 traits for one feat deal really depends, there are also traits that aren't quite as powerful as 1/2 a feat (for example, if you're using bows, Point-blank Shot and Precise Shot are mandatory and better than 4 traits).

[DMVerdandi]

If only you could play an arcane bomber and spell-slinger at the same time.
You would have EVERYTHING you need. Perhaps ask your DM if you can possibly create a new arcane discovery that allows you to sacrifice your wizard bonus feats to take two archetypes that cost the same thing.

If you can get that OK'd, then you will have the ability to craft bombs, give enhancement bonuses to your bullets, and cast wizard spells.
After that, ask if you can use a revolver. Best gun.

[Prophes0r]

Actualy it is perfectly permissible by RAW and RAI to use more than 1 archetype. The trick is that they must NOT replace the same abilities.

So if Class has 4 abilities and...

Archetype 1 replaces ability 1 and 3
Archetype 2 replaces 2 and 4


You could take both Archetype 1 and 2 at the same time.

[Prophes0r]

Yes those are the rules we are using for magic item creation.

I have decided I'm taking Smoke bomb + Stink Bomb since Nauseating is so broken. But I need a good way to get immunity to my own bombs.

I also need a good way to get great saves, or straight up immunity to Enchantment(charm) & Enchantment(mind-effecting)

[Prophes0r]

Yeah I'll never get to level 14 Alchemist to get the 1 hour per level durations. And I plan on using my bombs for utility.

Melee weapon choices? Wands? Odd potions? Remember, anything magic I get after character creation will be randomly generated dungeon loot, party crafted, or unavailable.

The table has nicknamed my self-buffing potions using Alchemical Allocation as "Backwash Potions".

I'm spending the 1200gp on a Potion of Barkskin +5 (caster level 12). +5 NA for 120 minutes as a 2nd level extract is great.

I think I should also probably grab a Cure Serious, or 2 since Alchemical Allocation makes it a better use of a second level spell slot.

[Larpus]

I believe there must be a magic item somewhere that gives immunity (or big defenses) against charm and mind-affecting, but I really can't remember any way other than being a class race, I meant race resistant/immune to those.

Don't worry too much about Stink Bomb, remember that you can throw twice the weapon's listed range for a meager -1 on the attack roll, considering you hit Touch AC and might even be targeting the ground (DC 5), you're peachy. Also, Fort is a strong save, so have a decent enough Con (ie. 10) and you should be fine.

As you can craft custom items...that's quite amazing, really, craft anything that sounds overall good and you're golden, don't focus too much on stat bonuses (these are too expensive and usually only truly good for casters), look for spells that would increase each character's usefulness, such as my example of a permanent Expeditious Retreat on a heavy armor user, which greatly increases their mobility (obviously, this was a level 3 game, were it higher I'd go for a permanent or uses/day Haste or fly effect).

The key here is to be creative, attentive to overall weaknesses or needs of everyone and think of useability. For example, a uses/day whatever of Glibness is godly for a bluffer, even if that's the Bard as it saves him spells/day. Same for you, even though later on you might need to completely discharge a CLW wand to get someone back on their feet, a uses/day spell trigger something of CLW might be cheaper and take some stress off the wand.

And cut costs as much as possible, such as making spell-trigger items for the casters (but not 50 charges, go with uses/day, check if that possible, rules aren't 100% clear either direction) and command word/use-activated only for the mundanes, as well as uses/day items for those spells that are useful but would hardly be used 5+ times per day.

Also remember the clauses: you can take a +5 DC for pre-reqs you don't meet (check if that means you can craft items with spells not even in your list) and you can have another caster sit pretty by your side and help you with needed spells (and vice-versa). So if the bard has Craft Wand, you can easily sit by his side and create wands from spells you have but he doesn't.

I'd drop the Cure Serious idea, you'll hardly have time for that in battle and out of battle multiple CLW wands (or Infernal Healing wands) are better healed HP per gold spent. To show some numbers, a single CSW potion will cost a minimum 750gp, as much as one 1st level CL1 wand, except that the potion only heals for 3d8+5 (18.5 HP average, 8 HP minimum) and costs you a 2nd level slot unless you want the potion gone for good; the wand on the other hand can heal for [1d8+1]*50 (275 HP average, 100 HP minimum) and doesn't cost you spell slots.

Remember, healing mid battle is suboptimal as it's hard/impossible to heal more damage than you're eating, it's a much better idea to try your best to not be damaged to begin with and even when it is necessary (ie. when not healing will result in death), your available method for doing so are way out of their element as you cannot say pretty words and touch the target to heal, you have instead to hand him a potion then he'll take an AoO in his turn to drink it with a standard action...just...ouch!

But...yeah, do start the game with couple CLW wands and check with the Bard if he does have Craft Wand, with magic item short supply that might actually be needed.

By the way, what I meant about the mutagen duration is that once you get enough 10 minutes to be a full hour, another 10 minutes won't make much difference because it's already a pretty good duration for an adventuring buff and if the DM really wants to get you without it, he has literally total freedom to say "Ah, ok then, the attack occurred 10-40 minutes later than I just mentioned. So yes, you are mutagen-free.".

If your average adventuring day goes on for much longer than an hour without the possibility for an hour break so you can at least prepare another dose and chug it once a new battle is pinpointed, chances are you're totally out of spells and bombs, so mutagen won't save your skin at all.

Also, use scouts, buffing pre-battle makes a really big difference.

[Prophes0r]

Birthmark

You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects as a result.


As a trait, this seems pretty damned good. Doesn't this basically cover the entire enchantment spell list?

I was worrying about stink bomb BECAUSE nauseated is so OP. In tight confines (deep woods or in a dungeon), a 5x5 area is going to ruin my day as much as the enemies.

As to crafting the items? The rest of the party has decided I'm just a hired merc, and my character views them the same way. I'm sure we will EVENTUALLY warm up to each other. But for now, as long as they can scrape by alive, my hunter is inclined to watch them suffer and give them **** about it.

The rules explicitly state you can take a +5 DC to replace a requirement for ANY requirement that is not the Creation feet, or the minimum caster level. This is how fighters can craft magic arms and armor with "Master Craftsman". It also states that you don't need to know the spell if someone else is there to cast it during the creation process (the entire process i believe). So I could make bard wands with the bards cooperation with no DC increase.

I find Blistering Invective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blistering) hilarious as a spell. Both in context, and mechanics. Even more so when I try to figure out how my Alchemist is doing it. A bard I can KIND of see, but an alchemist? Half-Orc +intimidation ftw?

Our group tends to have multiple days downtime between locations. If it takes 4 days to get through the woods we are only worrying about random encounters. And those are random encounters in areas where we have recently dealt a blow against the major evil in the area. So slow, consistent, virtually free healing is a big bonus. The Cure serious was an "Oh Crap" spell. If I'm low on Hp, I may be able to escape with an invisibility, but I'm not jumping back into the fight if I have 4 Hp left. I'm open to other ideas on contingency healing though.

[Prophes0r]

For the Mutagen, its a favored class bonus for Orcs. I'm comparing this at a few levels, taking into account my characters 20 Intelligence...

Half-Orc +1/3 bomb damage

Alchemist 5

Bombs = 3d6 + 6
Mutagen = 50 minutes

Alchemist 6

Bombs = 3d6 + 7
Mutagen = 60 minutes

Alchemist 7

Bombs = 4d6 + 7
Mutagen = 70 minutes

Alchemist 9

Bombs = 5d6 + 8
Mutagen = 90 minutes



Orc +10 minutes to mutagen duration.

Alchemist 5

Bombs = 3d6 + 5
Mutagen = 100 minutes

Alchemist 6

Bombs = 3d6 + 5
Mutagen = 120 minutes

Alchemist 7

Bombs = 4d6 + 5
Mutagen = 140 minutes

Alchemist 9

Bombs = 5d6 + 5
Mutagen = 180 minutes



The Orc bonus literally doubles mutagen duration, until you hit level 14 when it is essentially worthless. Perhaps there is a happy medium? I'm using my bombs for utility anyway, does the bomb damage really matter?

[Larpus]

Damage isn't really that important, think of it as a cute bonus. Wasn't discouraging you from taking the +10 min mutagen thing, just mentioning it's not a gamebreaker at all since if the DM wants to get you mutagen-less, he will take you mutagen-less, unless your mutagen lasts for like 15 hours.

As for Stink Bomb...that's where Precise Bombs come into play, with that you can negate up to your Int modifier tiles' effect, meaning that you can easily control and even somewhat shape your bombs for the situation.

[Prophes0r]

Even if I exclude squares from stink bomb, what then? Do I stand there and wait for it to go away? Or do I step into the cloud and risk being nauseated?

[Prophes0r]

Any last minute gear suggestions or strategies for me?

[Larpus]

Not really, enemies aren't stupid, so they will go out of the smoke area, you should use it for either make it difficult for enemies to get to you/your group or throw it in the middle of them to luckily debuff them with a nasty nauseated condition and them make them move.

If you don't have enough room that completely negating 5 tiles worth of effect won't give you at least a safe place to stand (also remember that you can target a corner or close to a wall to naturally negate some tiles worth of effect), then chances are you're really screwed and might be better off trying to live through the stink.

Again, enemies aren't stupid and will move out of the cloud asap as they want to avoid the nausea and want to actually see your group. If they don't, then take advantage of their stupidity and enjoy.

[Prophes0r]

A "Saw Backed" sword acts like a saw, without having to carry extra gear.

Anyone know how weapon materials effect this augmentation?

If I have a saw backed adamantine longsword, can I use it to cut through harder materials? Like metal bars?

[Prophes0r]

Melee weapon recommendations?

I'm thinking i'll primarily be using 2-h when I have time to prepare shield. But I'll carry a shield and 1-h for emergency purposes. Reach weapon options?

we also use damage types for some monsters like zombies and skeletons, so I need to either carry backups, or spread my weapons across all 3. We don't use the damage types for generic NPC armor though, since it can be time consuming in combat determining who hits what best and when, and what weapon to attack NPC 3 with.