Powerful Prestige Class

[Melcar]

Hello...

Since I have found this place to be a great source of information and ideas, I thought I would ask another question that you sages might answer.

Im looking for an extremely powerful/overpowered prestige class for a wizard. Not looking for anything in particular, just anything over the top power. Something that will make my DM spit his coke when I tell him, that I want that PrC next time I gain a level.

Any good ideas?

Thanks

[Hirax]

Incantatrix is the go to overpowered prestige class for wizards. One level of mindbender, coupled with the mindsight feat, is also worth mentioning.

[docnessuno]

Initiate of the sevenfold veil (any wizard)
Dweomerkeeper (Any wizard, requires a cleric dip)
Incantatrix (for metamagic-focused wizards)
Metaphysical spellshaper (3rd party, really broken)
War Mage (semi-3rd party, for blaster wizards or sorcerers)

These are the most over-the top full casting PRCs i can think about right now.

[Gigas Breaker]

I hear Anima Mage is pretty strong.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Well its not necessarily for wizards but it is a wizard :smallyuk:. Look up the beholder mage, it is a 10 level arcane prestige class with 9th level spells.

[GenericMook]

Master Transmogrifist is hilarious, but it's a 6/10 casting PrC, so you lose access to 9th level spells. It's really only broken because of Polymorph cheese. Bonus points if you're an Outsider.

Incantatrix is ridiculous, because of metamagic shenanigans.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is hands down the best defensive PrC out there.

Dweomerkeeper is on the same level of cheese as Incantatrix, but without persisted shapechange.

Archmage is ridiculously useful because of Arcane Reach. It's not broken, but it's pretty damn good.

[docnessuno]

Dweomerkeeper is on the same level of cheese as Incantatrix, but without persisted shapechange.

But with supernatural spell (XP and component free, no SR).

[GenericMook]

But with supernatural spell (XP and component free, no SR).

Which, for the OP's reference, gets silly when used with the likes of say, Wish.

Hell, use it with anything that causes XP, and your DM will probably set a new Guiness World Record with coke-spitting.

[LTwerewolf]

Rune Smith is also pretty good (you can make your party broken too!).

[Wings of Peace]

Category* 1: Mind Mage

Category 2: Blood Magus, Dweomerkeeper,Tainted Scholar

Category 3: Incantatrix, Spelldancer

Category 4: Halruaan Elder, Hathran, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

Category 5: Anima Mage

Category 6: Archmage

*Prestige classes are arranged alphabetically within their respective categories. Prestige class power rises inversely to categorical value (with category 1 encompassing the strongest prestige classes). The power level of each prestige class in a category is assumed to be similar enough that further scrutiny would be a matter of player preference.

[docnessuno]

And i forgot spelldancer! Awful feat prerequisites, but it's probably the top cheese option for arcane persist abuse.


Category* 1: Mind Mage

Category 2: Blood Magus, Dweomerkeeper,Tainted Scholar

Category 3: Incantatrix

Category 4: Halruaan Elder, Hathran, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

Category 5: Anima Mage

Category 6: Archmage

*Prestige classes are arranged alphabetically within their respective categories. Prestige class power rises inversely to categorical value (with category 1 encompassing the strongest prestige classes). The power level of each prestige class in a category is assumed to be similar enough that further scrutiny would be a matter of player preference.


Mind mage is definitly not that strong. On par with Dweomerkeepr or with Incantatrix.
I think anima mage is pretty much comparable to the other category 4 PRCs (don't forget that, on top of metamagic cheese, it's a dual progression class).
I have no idea why blood magus is even on that list.
About tainted scholar, if it's played how it is supposed to be played (without a way to ignore taint drawbacks) he falls down to Category 6 or lower. Otherwise he would deserve a Category 0 on its own.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Red Wizard in the DMG is up there once you can make Simulacrums of yourself to contribute to your circle magic. Once you hit 20th level your (new) Simulacrums will be 10th level, and can do Circle Magic with each other. Nine of them can Heighten a spell to 20th level and then contribute that one when you lead a circle each day, giving you 180 spell levels to play with.

Incantatrix would be my first choice though, due to Persistent Spell shenanigans, but you really only need 3-4 levels of it for that.

[Spuddles]

Category* 1: Mind Mage

Category 2: Blood Magus, Dweomerkeeper,Tainted Scholar

Category 3: Incantatrix, Spelldancer

Category 4: Halruaan Elder, Hathran, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

Category 5: Anima Mage

Category 6: Archmage

*Prestige classes are arranged alphabetically within their respective categories. Prestige class power rises inversely to categorical value (with category 1 encompassing the strongest prestige classes). The power level of each prestige class in a category is assumed to be similar enough that further scrutiny would be a matter of player preference.

Other than having really terrible entry requirements and 9/10 casting, does the blood magus actually do anything?

[Wings of Peace]

And i forgot spelldancer! Awful feat prerequisites, but it's probably the top cheese option for arcane persist abuse.



I think anima mage is pretty much comparable to the other category 4 PRCs (don't forget that, on top of metamagic cheese, it's a dual progression class).
I have no idea why blood magus is even on that list.
About tainted scholar, if it's played how it is supposed to be played (without a way to ignore taint drawbacks) he falls down to Category 6 or lower. Otherwise he would deserve a Category 0 on its own.

Blood Magus is on the list for it's cl boosting effect which is fairly easy to abuse. You're probably right about Anima Mage. The main reason it isn't ranked higher is because it's main trick (the metamagic mitigation) is only usable 3 times per day at max. I might consider moving Initiate down but I don't think I'd move Anima Mage up. Tainted Scholar's ranking is based on the assumption taint is being abused.

Edit: Mind Mage is ranked the highest because it can be used to facilitate infinite spells per day (via refreshing slots), arbitrary metamagic mitigation, and a few other shenanigans with minimal effort.

[docnessuno]

Using this ability deals 1 point of damage to the blood magus but raises the spell’s caster level by 1

This seems pretty unambiguous to me. If you use the ability it's +1 to CL for 1 damage, not +X for X damage.

[Wings of Peace]

This seems pretty unambiguous to me. If you use the ability it's +1 to CL for 1 damage, not +X for X damage.

It's usable as a free action which means that it can be used repeatedly. While the effect of ignoring the material components is irrelevant for stacking purposes the +1 is not.

[Arcanist]

Red Wizard in the DMG is up there once you can make Simulacrums of yourself to contribute to your circle magic. Once you hit 20th level your (new) Simulacrums will be 10th level, and can do Circle Magic with each other. Nine of them can Heighten a spell to 20th level and then contribute that one when you lead a circle each day, giving you 180 spell levels to play with.

... TEACH ME! :smallamused:

[docnessuno]

I think the classes should be ranked by pure unanbiguous power, and not for the "potential cheese" with some convoluted combination, otherwise a pure wizard 20 can pull enough tricks out of its sleeve to make the whole thread rendundant (heck, even an expert 1 could).

Thinghs like:
Dweomperkeeper supernatural spell + wish
Red mage circle magic + leadership
Incantatrix metamagic effect + persistent spell
Spelldancer spelldancing + persistent spell
Iot7V immediate veils + any threatening action
Are all pretty "simple" to see.

Edit to avoid double post:

It's usable as a free action which means that it can be used repeatedly. While the effect of ignoring the material components is irrelevant for stacking purposes the +1 is not.

Yes, but you consume the marerial components of a spell only once in it's casting, and the ability clearly states you are substituting the material component. Even if you want to be RAW-strict, using the ability more than one would just substitute your drop of blood with another, with no additional CL increase.

[Wings of Peace]

I think the classes should be ranked by pure unanbiguous power, and not for the "potential cheese" with some convoluted combination, otherwise a pure wizard 20 can pull enough tricks out of its sleeve to make the whole thread rendundant (heck, even an expert 1 could).

Thinghs like:
Dweomperkeeper supernatural spell + wish
Red mage circle magic + leadership
Incantatrix metamagic effect + persistent spell
Spelldancer spelldancing + persistent spell
Iot7V immediate veils + any threatening action
Are all pretty "simple" to see.

I think potential cheese should be given moderate consideration since the op asked for the strongest class. You're right that with enough optimization you eventually reach a singularity point where prestige classes stop mattering. When I organized the classes I focused mostly on the potential optimization of their individual class features (not counting dual progressions).

[Flickerdart]

It's usable as a free action which means that it can be used repeatedly. While the effect of ignoring the material components is irrelevant for stacking purposes the +1 is not.
Multiple applications from the same source generally do not stack. Does the ability specify that it stacks?

[Wings of Peace]

Multiple applications from the same source generally do not stack. Does the ability specify that it stacks?

It doesn't but it's also an untyped bonus. I was under the impression the same source rule applied to only to spells/psionics/etc and typed bonuses, was I incorrect?

[Flickerdart]

It doesn't but it's also an untyped bonus. I was under the impression the same source rule applied to only to spells/psionics/etc and typed bonuses, was I incorrect?
Typed bonuses don't stack no matter what, that's what the type is for. The relevant rule is "In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)." found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm).

[Wings of Peace]

Typed bonuses don't stack no matter what, that's what the type is for. The relevant rule is "In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)." found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm).

My feeling is that the "In most cases" text puts things up in the air.

[Flickerdart]

That merely allows for exceptions, but something has to identify itself as an exception, otherwise it isn't.

[Wings of Peace]

That merely allows for exceptions, but something has to identify itself as an exception, otherwise it isn't.

From a RAW perspective abilities/feats already trump general rules. Because of that specifying again in the actual text would be redundant in this case.

[Flickerdart]

The rules are full of redundancies. Unless there is some indication that the Blood Mage ability is an exception, I see no reason to treat it as such, because "not an exception" is the default.

[Wings of Peace]

The rules are full of redundancies. Unless there is some indication that the Blood Mage ability is an exception, I see no reason to treat it as such, because "not an exception" is the default.

The default is that when there is a conflict between the general rules and a written ability the ability trumps the rules. Aside from clarification of intent there would be no reason to add any exception text in this instance because the general/specific rules already address the matter.

[Larkas]

The Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is pretty good, but not the best. It has too many lost spellcasting levels, but its capstone gives you 3.0 Haste. Yeah, capstone, you don't want to take 10 levels of the class. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

I suspect the reason it's there is that they expected to have abilities that break that rule, and didn't want new players to think that it would always be true. In a similar way, the rules of Skills make allowances for "any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply" without detailing them exhaustively, even though the modifiers themselves all already say that they apply to that skill.

[Melcar]

This is great... Keep them comming!

I've found some pretty cool ones in Dragon Magazine...

The Arcane Lord and Mystic seems pretty cool... Any thoughts on them?

[JaronK]

I haven't seen Shadowcraft Mage mentioned yet, but maybe I missed it. That one's insane. So's Runesmith. Tainted Sorcerer + Anima Mage is a brutal combo as well.

In fact, as a sample, what about a nice Dwarf Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/Runesmith 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1? Endless all day free metamagic if it doesn't exceed your max spell level, 3/day free metamagic that can, any item crafting feat you want when you want it, endless summon monsters of many different types (which allows endless Divination spells per day), telepathy, True Creation and Animate Dread Warrior as spell like abilities (if you like), and a host of other abilities. It's pretty tough to beat.

JaronK

[Melcar]

I haven't seen Shadowcraft Mage mentioned yet, but maybe I missed it. That one's insane. So's Runesmith. Tainted Sorcerer + Anima Mage is a brutal combo as well.

In fact, as a sample, what about a nice Dwarf Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/Runesmith 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1? Endless all day free metamagic if it doesn't exceed your max spell level, 3/day free metamagic that can, any item crafting feat you want when you want it, endless summon monsters of many different types (which allows endless Divination spells per day), telepathy, True Creation and Animate Dread Warrior as spell like abilities (if you like), and a host of other abilities. It's pretty tough to beat.

JaronK

That sounds very effective!

[JaronK]

It's absolutely devastating, honestly. Serious campaign breaker. Luckily you don't get "create any mundane substance you want, in massive amounts, every day, with no cost, including special materials like Adamantine" until level 18.

But a lot of the other powerful abilities come online much faster.

JaronK

[Story]

The problem with Shadowcraft Mage is that to get the full effect, you have to build from level 1. It's not like Incantrix where you can just be in nearly any Wizard build and make the GM spit coke by saying you're taking your next level in it.

[Sgt. Cookie]

While it requires the somewhat dubious practice of using a Paladin variant, the following is pretty powerful:

Savage Bard (For skills/Saves) 5/Ur-Priest 4/PrC Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter 11

Net result: 9ths. On a PALADIN, and you can ACF away all those useless features for something else.

So, yeah. PrC Paladin (An evil one, at least) is pretty damn powerful, with a little Op-fu, of course.

[nedz]

Why has no one mentioned Beholder Mage ?
Casting 11 spells a round not good enough for your list ?

[Story]

Someone did mention it.

[nedz]

My bad — I did look for it, but I must have missed it.

[Seer_of_Heart]

What's so powerful about the runesmith? I looked it up and can't see anything particularly good about it

[Flickerdart]

What's so powerful about the runesmith? I looked it up and can't see anything particularly good about it
Well, first of all it's a full casting PrC, so there's that - you basically get free stuff in exchange for 8 skill ranks. Wiping somatic components from his spells means a free Still Spell on everything, and ignores ASF. Share Runes is a real gem, because it means that you can prepare spells and then your familiar can cast them, essentially doubling your action economy. Is there a mundane in your party? Hand him a stack of tiles, now he can buff himself. Have Leadership? Grab a couple dozen 1st level nobodies, give them each a tile, and unleash a murderous salvo of spells when you need to.
Permanent Rune is also handy - use it on any spell with an XP cost that you plan using a lot, and then spam it like there's no tomorrow. Permanency and Limited Wish come to mind, but there are others.

[JaronK]

Permanent Rune gives you spell like abilities that ignore exp costs and long casting times (but making the rune does cost a lot of money if there's an expensive material component, so it won't help there). Make a Permanent Rune of True Creation and now you can create any material you want, free, twice a day, permanently. How about as much adamantium as you ever wanted? And that's just a start. Or how about a Permanent Rune of Animate Dread Warrior so that 2/day you can take any humanoid corpse and get it back as a faithful servant with class levels? While you're at it, sp abilities always take a standard action, so get Major Creation as well, and just create giant pools of thousands of doses of Black Lotus poison around enemies, thus completely wiping out two encounters per day if they're not immune to poison (and let the party stealth guy take some of that poison to kill everyone else).

The possibilities are really endless.

Also, Share Rune lets you give personal buffs to other people, which can really help.

JaronK

[Seer_of_Heart]

Permanent Rune is also handy - use it on any spell with an XP cost that you plan using a lot, and then spam it like there's no tomorrow. Permanency and Limited Wish come to mind, but there are others.

I read that it still uses Xp costs so that doesn't work :smallsigh:

[JaronK]

You may have read that, but you read wrong. You pay the exp costs once, when you make the permanent rune, but that's it... from then on out, you can use it 2/day, no cost.

JaronK

[Flickerdart]

I read that it still uses Xp costs so that doesn't work :smallsigh:
Then you read it incorrectly. That entire section talks about the cost of crating a Permanent Rune. By that point in the ability, the runesmith can't even cast it yet - the rules for what happens when he uses the ability follow in the next sentence. If the XP cost was paid when using the ability, it would follow as a clarification of that sentence, rather than come before it with all the other costs of creating a Permanent Rune.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

... TEACH ME! :smallamused:

It's actually quite easy. A Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 10/ X 5 makes a Simulacrum that's a Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5, thus able to lead a circle with five other casters. You can lead a circle with nine other casters, so you make nine Simulacrums.

Each Simulacrum leads a circle in turn, aided by five other simulacrums. Each one acts as a circle leader once and as a participant five times, for six hours of circle magic each day with each other, and one hour with your character. As a circle leader they contribute a 4th level spell to the pool, as a participant they contribute a 3rd level spell the first time and a 2nd level spell each of the other four times. Each one gains 15 spell levels when they lead a circle, and each uses those to heighten a 5th level spell to 20th level per the circle magic rules.

Your character leads one circle each day, with all nine simulacrums. Each one contributes his 20th level spell he got from leading his own circle. Your character can contribute a spell of any level he wants, even a 0-level spell, but he cannot opt to not contribute a spell. From those nine simulacrums you get 180 spell levels, so you can spend 20 to increase your caster level to 40 for the day, make a few Maximized Empowered Disintegrates and Maw of Chaos that are Heightened to 20th level spells for a DC of 40+, etc.

Halruaan Elder can also do circle magic, but you can't be a circle leader until your 12th character level barring shenanigans, so you'll have to be 24th level to make Simulacrums that can lead a circle. They also can't have more than five participants in their circle, so they only get 100 spell levels to play with.

[JaronK]

Sadly, that whole trick doesn't come online until level 20, of course.

JaronK

[Flickerdart]

Could you not do it at level 18, using Inspire Greatness to make up for the remaining 2 HD?

[JaronK]

It's still not getting the true power until very late in the build.

I like the Runesmith/Anima Mage/Tainted Sorcerer build because it's already doing crazy stuff by about level 6 (you take the Tainted Sorcerer level as soon as you can be sure to beat the will save never to take another level, usually via a Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind... that's usually level 6 or so). And it's insane by about level 10.

JaronK

[Mato]

Illthid Savant
Requires Mindflayer, a 8 HD Aberration with a whopping +7 LA. You do at least get 9th level Telepath powers if Psionics is allowed. And if you ignore Races like anyone mention Beholder Mage wants to, then heck it's free too.

What does it give?
Anything.
It's Pun-Pun's father. The Blue Mage Megaman from ye olden times complaining about the newer generation's taste in rock music.

Choices include but are not limited to
...Spellcasting from Beholder Mage.
...Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect, which Persist is like the brokenz here.
...Shadowcraft Mage's 110% real Miracle.
...Denowmer's Spell to SLA.
Bonus Points if you're a StP Erudite.

[Arbane]

I take it Abjurant Champion is nowhere nearly broken enough to play with the big boys?

[Flickerdart]

I take it Abjurant Champion is nowhere nearly broken enough to play with the big boys?
Abjurant Champion is a gish class. It's a very good gish class, sure - possibly the best one. But when your PrC's effect is "improves your BAB compared to wizard levels and increases your AC a bit", you're not in the right league.

[tuesdayscoming]

Could you not do it at level 18, using Inspire Greatness to make up for the remaining 2 HD?

I'm so happy to see someone else using Inspire Greatness to boost simulacra. It's one of my absolute favorite tricks, but you never see anyone talking about it!

edit: This trick is obviously a lot more worthwhile if the character using Inspire Greatness has boosted the HD-gain through Words of Creation, Focused Performance, etc.

[Mato]

BoED's Word of Creation notes it doubles Bardic Music effects. And while the entry on Greatness doesn't carry the some double it redundancy Inspire Courage does, intent certain points one way. If you further add Song of Heart to the mix you could gain 6 HD allowing you to preform this trick even earlier.

[Melcar]

I have a good one I think...

Elemental Lord. Its a legendary class from Legends and Lairs. Denpending on when you choose what ability it will make you get a Lagendary con bonus, and make you immune to all 5 elements...

[RFLS]

Hello...

Since I have found this place to be a great source of information and ideas, I thought I would ask another question that you sages might answer.

Im looking for an extremely powerful/overpowered prestige class for a wizard. Not looking for anything in particular, just anything over the top power. Something that will make my DM spit his coke when I tell him, that I want that PrC next time I gain a level.

Any good ideas?

Thanks

Probably irrelevant, but I'd like to ask why you want ultimate cosmic power. I don't suppose you're at table full of optimizers?

[Melcar]

Probably irrelevant, but I'd like to ask why you want ultimate cosmic power. I don't suppose you're at table full of optimizers?

Well... Im not sitting down with powergamers trying to get more and more power, but I just find it interesting to se what is out there... And what people other than my friends find powerful or interesting.

Its more for academic purposses :smallsmile:

[Gandariel]

I'd mention Escalation Mage.

Not really super duper broken powerful, but:

easy qualification (any metamagic feat, caster level 5)
full casting
free metamagic! if you take the Arcane Mastery feat you get more or less 6 free Quickens/day
(also other metamagic effects if you need, like empower or extend)

(Oh, you need to be evil-ish)

[Spuddles]

Abjurant Champion is a gish class. It's a very good gish class, sure - possibly the best one. But when your PrC's effect is "improves your BAB compared to wizard levels and increases your AC a bit", you're not in the right league.

Free quicken on Abjurations is pretty handy. Nothing earth shattering, but Abjurant Champion is ez-pz to enter and has decent returns.

I would rank it powerful, a little above Archmage.

[Killer Angel]

OP, other than raw power, do you need something specific?
otherwise, you already have your list of powerful PRCs: it depends on what kind of trick you want to have in your sleeve.
Metamagic abuse? go for incantatrix
Improve defense? IotSV
and so on...

[Melcar]

OP, other than raw power, do you need something specific?
otherwise, you already have your list of powerful PRCs: it depends on what kind of trick you want to have in your sleeve.
Metamagic abuse? go for incantatrix
Improve defense? IotSV
and so on...

Well nothing in particular, just any spellcasting prestige class that gives you a clear opper hand in every fights. I cant say what im looking for, but immunities or point and win sort of classes was my intent. Or ofc metamagic unlimitlesness(if its a word)

[thethird]

2 levels of primal scholar?

I mean never running out of spells is always nice.

Just cast unfettered heroism (gives caster level/action points) and use secrets of power (get one spell back by expending an action point).

[Melcar]

Never running out of spells.. thats sure is nice.

What about the Word Bearer from Quintessentioal Wizard...

[Saidoro]

If pathfinder material is allowed you could go for Collegiate Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/magaambyan-arcanist). Because being Schrodinger's wizard is fun times.

[CaeruliusVentus]

I'm surprised the master specialist hasn't been mentioned. It is a full casting PrC that gives some major boosts to the chosen specialty and it can be taken at level 4. For PrCs like IotSV that require being higher level to start, it means you pick up much more useful things than going straight wizard. Low levels get feats like skill focus(spellcraft) and greater spell focus for free and higher levels get things like still, silent, and eschew materials on all illusion spells.

[Flickerdart]

I'm surprised the master specialist hasn't been mentioned. It is a full casting PrC that gives some major boosts to the chosen specialty and it can be taken at level 4. For PrCs like IotSV that require being higher level to start, it means you pick up much more useful things than going straight wizard. Low levels get feats like skill focus(spellcraft) and greater spell focus for free and higher levels get things like still, silent, and eschew materials on all illusion spells.
You lose two feats (the prerequisite and the 5th level bonus feat) that could have been used to qualify for a better PrC, or turned into Spontaneous Divination or any number of other great feat-replacement ACFs. It's a good PrC, but it's not a no-brainer.

[ddude987]

IMO, Soul Eater is really powerful. Just one level in it makes it very strong.