Break DC

[javijuji]

On our last session our group decided to try the whole lets break the doors instead of picking them open thing. I am familiar with Sunder mechanics but im not sure how Break DC works. According to what I read its a Strength Check that has to reach a certain DC in order to break the item. They seem to be extremely high though. Break DC 28 on an iron door? I see many of these doors on low level adventures and dungeons but a lvl 1-5 group should not be able to roll a 28 on a Strength Check. Cant they take a 20 on the check? If so then it becomes a lot easier. What about sundering a door. Can the party repeat the sunder process until they finally break it. Even if they have to hit it 30 times?

[Jeraa]

The Break DC represents breaking an object with a single, solid strike. Breaking a 2" thick slab of metal with a single strike should be hard. Thats the entire reason to use a metal door - its much harder to break then a wooden one.


Cant they take a 20 on the check?
Yes. You can Take 10 and Take 20 on ability checks.


What about sundering a door. Can the party repeat the sunder process until they finally break it. Even if they have to hit it 30 times?
Yes, you can keep attacking a door (or any object) until you destroy it.

[Gildedragon]

Break DC is to smash it with a single show of strength
In a door's case this'd be kicking it down, or ripping the lock out.
Taking 20 is an option, but because that's several tries they'd be better off just dealing damage to the door. It has aprox 10 hp/inch of thickness, so lets say 30 hp with hardness 5 and an AC of 8.
A 6th level fighter with str 18 and a great axe should be done in two-odd rounds (an average damage 7.5 per attack (post hardness), or 15 per round)
oops Iron door, that's 90hp with hardness 10. That's 18 rounds.

[javijuji]

Would it make sense to have creatures on the other side of the door react to this? Maybe get ready for an ambush or put a trap if the party takes too long to break the door? After all taking a 20 takes 20 times the time required for a single check right? So that would be 120 seconds?

I feel like our group has a habit for taking a 20 on as much stuff as possible. And there seems to never be any kind of disadvantage to it since time doesn't play an important role (Maybe it should)

[Ranting Fool]

On our last session our group decided to try the whole lets break the doors instead of picking them open thing. I am familiar with Sunder mechanics but im not sure how Break DC works. According to what I read its a Strength Check that has to reach a certain DC in order to break the item. They seem to be extremely high though. Break DC 28 on an iron door? I see many of these doors on low level adventures and dungeons but a lvl 1-5 group should not be able to roll a 28 on a Strength Check. Cant they take a 20 on the check? If so then it becomes a lot easier. What about sundering a door. Can the party repeat the sunder process until they finally break it. Even if they have to hit it 30 times?

Can a level one character brake down an Iron Door?
Firstly I'd like to point out that Brake DC's are strength checks so Base Attack doesn't help (I know this sounds obvious but I've had that confusion pop up)

As said before you can "Take a 20" on braking down a door (Meaning it takes 20 rounds)

So big dumb fighter has Strength 18 +4 bonus on the check.
And lets say he has a Portable Ram (You may laugh but I know someone who ALWAYS has one for any melee character) so that's another +2 circumstance bonus and allows another character to Aid you giving you +2 bonus.

Take 20
Str 4
Ram 2
Help 2
=28 Iron door broken down only taking 20 rounds and costing 10g

That said unless the place is empty smacking on an Iron door for two minuets with a battering ram is going to make a LOT of noise! :smallbiggrin:

[javijuji]

If they start smashing the door and the mobs behind it start to rally do they get free listen checks or do the players have to actively call a listen check on their own?

[Gildedragon]

Depends on how noisy the critters are. Either way unless they stop the banging there should be a penalty to listen checks

[Qc Storm]

I'm pretty sure the residents on the other side of the iron door would be aware that someone has been banging on it for 2 minutes.

[Jeraa]

I'm pretty sure the question was about the players hearing the monsters behind the door, not the monsters hearing the players.

[Qc Storm]

I'm pretty sure the question was about the players hearing the monsters behind the door, not the monsters hearing the players.

Oh, well that's harder. Big penalties from the thick door, also from being inattentive. Also the fact that there is a beatstick going berserk on the door itself. That would be a tough check.


Unless you want to just bang on the door once to trick the monsters into making noise and revealing their presence.

[Matticussama]

I'd give the players a listen check, but the DC would be much higher due to the sounds of slamming a ram (or hammer, or whatever they use) against a metal door.

From the SRD:

Listen DC
Modifier Condition
+5 Through a door
+15 Through a stone wall
+1 Per 10 feet of distance
+5 Listener distracted

They're through a door (+5), distracted (+5), plus however far away from the door the creatures are coming from. There might be additional circumstances from the sound of the ramming itself, which might add more than just the +5 to the DC from being distracted. Assuming the enemy creatures have any decent move silently skills, their roll +10 (at least) versus the listen check of the PCs makes it highly unlikely that they'll actually hear the enemy creatures on the other side.

[Diarmuid]

If they start smashing the door and the mobs behind it start to rally do they get free listen checks or do the players have to actively call a listen check on their own?

Listen checks can be passive as well as active. If the DM feels that a action would result in listen checks, then he should roll them in secret. If a PC is actively listening, then they can make their roll.

Our group's DMs keep cards with the PC's various passive skill modifiers and roll what they need when they need and give out any information as necessary. In the case of the monsters on the other side of the iron door, I would probably give the PC's listen checks but I would apply the follow modifiers:

Listener Distracted (applied to those actively working on the door): -5 Listen Check
Through a Door: +5 Listen DC
Each 10 ft of Distance: -1 Listen Check

The DC would either be 5-10 (depending on the armor worn) or the opponent's Move Siletly check, before adding the above modifications. You certainly wouldnt be unjustified applying a circumstance modifier of +2 to +4 for the others not working on breaking the door, due to the noise involved with 2 minutes of constant banging.

[hisnamehere]

So it's been established that a Take 20 action on a Sunder attempt on an iron door will result in 20 rounds of overly loud knocking on the door with a battering ram. And that this will alert all behind, and any within earshot (read, successful Listen check), that someone is attempting to break down said door.

So what about the party of explorers/infiltrators that doesn't want to make a lot of noise, but doesn't want to just take their chances (already established that a 1st level party NEEDS a 20 to succeed vs iron door) at rolling a 20? Could they inspect the door? Find the weakest hinge? Notice a rotten board (on a wooden door)? Then, with this knowledge (read, bonus to roll) attempt a single round assault on the door? Would this be the Take 10 action? Would it involve a successful Knowledge (Arch & Eng) or Craft (Ironsmithing) check to simply get a bonus to all attempts (single, Take 10, or Take 20) made to break the door?

Happy gaming!

P.S. Partial thread theft. Apologies. It's relavent tho, right?

[Diarmuid]

Clarification, it is not a Sunder attempt, it is a Break attempt. Sunder is it's own thing and has it's own rules.

I could probably be persuaded to allow for a Knowledge: Engineering roll to apply a small bonus to the Strength check to break the door. Probably somewhere along the Knowledge Devotion bonuses vs monsters.

The other point here is that the other party of adventurers/infiltrators should have other methods of bypassing such barriers if their intention is to be sneaky.

Knock
Open Locks
Forms of Teleportation
etc

I realise alot of those arent available at lower levels, and this is why a lot of low level adventurers end up dead. They simply dont have other options than simply banging on a door for 20 minutes (besides walking away, which no self respecting adventurer would do, heh).

[Fouredged Sword]

Just get someone with the TOB lockpick, Mountain HAAAAAMMMMMEEEEERRRR!!!!!!!!!!

[doc225]

This is an article that helps explain the rules for breaking down doors and why the DCs are relatively accurate. http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

Also look at the Dungeon Crasher ACF in Dungeonscape. It grants the fighter a bonus to breaking things.