Powerful rogues

[Cranthis]

What is the best rogue build you can think of? The only rule is you can't multiclass into a caster class. This only applies to full casting classing, Wizard, Beguiler, etc.

[Deca4531]

What is the best rogue build you can think of? The only rule is you can't multiclass into a caster class. This only applies to full casting classing, Wizard, Beguiler, etc.

i would go with 2 weapon fighting build. unlike PF you can apply sneak attack to every hit (as far as i know)

if you can get a damage reduction (like from the lycan template) you could put Vicious on both your weapons (+2d6 to target and 1d6 to you)

there is also a feat combo
quick reconnoiter (1 free spot and listen check a round, +2 iniative)
deft strike (make spot check = to target AC to ignor all armour and nat armour)

you could also go Multi weapon fighting if you had a tail. and easy race for that in "dragon born" from Races of the Dragon.

[Cranthis]

Interesting. What prestiges would you go into with it though.

[Flickerdart]

Psychic Rogue 20.

What?

[Deca4531]

Interesting. What prestiges would you go into with it though.

lol, its been a while since i played rogue. Assassin was one i liked but im sure there are others far better.

[gorfnab]

Feat Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Sneak Attack Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter 3/ Feat Rogue 13 + Daring Outlaw feat + TWF feat chain + a lenient DM = :smallsmile:

[JaronK]

Is what you want a strong character that uses the Rogue class, or a strong character that uses the Rogue archetype? Because those are very different things.

JaronK

[Melcar]

Easy: Feats:
Traps and Treachery: Improved Sneak Attack: 1d6 -> 1d8
Mercenary’s book: Improved Sneak Attack: 1d8 -> 1d10
Hourglass of Zihadja: 3x –> d12 -> d20 -> d100

2 levels in expert, 1 in warrior in UA. Replace all three feats with Sneak Attack (reg, imp, and greater). 9d6 in 3 levels. They require Hide and Moves silently (4, 11, then 18, I think).

At level 20 you should have about 20d100 sneak attack, if you allow 3ed party books!

[Flickerdart]

Easy: Feats:
Traps and Treachery: Improved Sneak Attack: 1d6 -> 1d8
Mercenary’s book: Improved Sneak Attack: 1d8 -> 1d10
Hourglass of Zihadja: 3x –> d12 -> d20 -> d100

2 levels in expert, 1 in warrior in UA. Replace all three feats with Sneak Attack (reg, imp, and greater). 9d6 in 3 levels. They require Hide and Moves silently (4, 11, then 18, I think).

At level 20 you should have about 20d100 sneak attack, if you allow 3ed party books!
I think you grossly misunderstand just about every single one of the rules you've quoted.
1) The generic classes are not meant to be used in the same campaigns as regular classes, and their use is at the sole discretion of the DM.
2) Skill ranks cap at your level plus 3, so you can't actually take 11 ranks by level 2, or 18 ranks by level 3.
3) You cannot select any feat more than once, unless explicitly stated.
4) Hourglass of Zihaja is not a 3rd party book; rather, it is straight-up homebrew.
5) Even if it was a book, the Improved Sneak Attack feats from HoZ specifically set the die size, rather than blindly increase it by one step.

In other words, you literally cannot possibly be more wrong.

[Rubik]

Psychic Rogue 20.

What?Artificer. It's LIKE rogue, but waaay better.

Also, factotum.

And if you absolutely must go with vanilla rogue, try going psionicless thri kreen and multi-wielding wands and sneak attacking with the nastiest rays you can think of.

[Norin]

Psychic Rogue 20.

What?

Oh, interesting class. Thanks. :smallamused:

[Melcar]

I think you grossly misunderstand just about every single one of the rules you've quoted.
1) The generic classes are not meant to be used in the same campaigns as regular classes, and their use is at the sole discretion of the DM.
2) Skill ranks cap at your level plus 3, so you can't actually take 11 ranks by level 2, or 18 ranks by level 3.
3) You cannot select any feat more than once, unless explicitly stated.
4) Hourglass of Zihaja is not a 3rd party book; rather, it is straight-up homebrew.
5) Even if it was a book, the Improved Sneak Attack feats from HoZ specifically set the die size, rather than blindly increase it by one step.

In other words, you literally cannot possibly be more wrong.

Well no you cant have that high skill. you would have to take normal rogue levels in between, I thought that was understood.

Further even if you dont use HoZ you have d10 sneak, I have a level 10 rogue using these rules and it has 10d10 sneak dice.
Rogue, and Expert shoud as far as I know work fine...

and unless its stated that you CANT take the feat more than once you can. And by the way, Im not taking the same feat more than once, im taking diferent feats from diferent book by same name.

[Cranthis]

and unless its stated that you CANT take the feat more than once you can.

But unless it says they stack, they don't. So its pointless. You can't double up on power attack, for example.

[ManInOrange]

If you want straight-up damage, then I suppose maximizing your ability to do sneak attack damage no matter what the circumstances is your best bet. Do note that I don't spend much time optimizing, and I do not consider this an optimization. Nonetheless, after looking into it for an hour or so I would probably do it this way:

Rogue 5/ Invisible Blade 5/ Fighter 1/ Dervish 1/ Rogue 13

OR

Rogue 5/ Invisible Blade 5/ Fighter 1/ Dervish 3/ Rogue 11

The first one adds another die of sneak attack damage and a special ability. The second, however, adds another use of Dervish dance, and, realistically speaking, you're probably going to want to use that more than once per day. Also, that extra d6 is the difference between 9d6 and 10d6.

I'm not too sure what I'd do for the two special abilities. I mean, I'd probably take Combat reflexes with one of them and the opportunist ability with the other, but I'm not sure.

Strongheart Halfling OR Human

Feat: Point Blank Shot
ECL 1

Feat: Weapon focus (dagger)
ECL 3

Feat: Far Shot
ECL 6

Feat: Combat Expertise
ECL 9

Feat: Dodge
Fighter 1

Feat: Mobility
ECL 12

Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
ECL 15

Feat: Improved TWF
ECL 18

Feat: Greater TWF

I have been led to believe that, since it's a free action from invisible blade, you can feint between each attack of your full attack action. If you have max ranks in bluff and items to offer an enhancement, you should be feinting all over the place, making people trail blood in a like fashion. An item of continuous, use-activated, or daily use haste is pretty much necessary, as are two Greater Truedeath crystals if you're fighting undead.

Also, you should certainly take the skill trick "Group Fake-Out" from complete Scoundrel, particularly if you want to use those 9 or 10 d6's to their fullest potential, against multiple enemies. This might also relieve the cheesy feel of feinting before every attack against the same person, if, like me, your characters are lactose intolerant.

[thethird]

unfortunately invisible blade got nerfed in the errata.

[HunterOfJello]

I
Rogue 5/ Invisible Blade 5/ Fighter 1/ Dervish 1/ Rogue 13

OR

Rogue 5/ Invisible Blade 5/ Fighter 1/ Dervish 3/ Rogue 11


Unfortunately, the Errata for Complete Warrior nerfed the Invisible Blade pretty badly.


Page 46: Invisible Blade’s Uncanny Feint
(class feature)
The invisible blade can use his uncanny feint ability
once per round.


However, this can be rectified by taking the Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark.



SURPRISING RIPOSTE
Through deft maneuvering, you unravel your opponent’s
defenses.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint.
Benefit: If you deal damage to an opponent in the same
round that you successfully feinted against it, it becomes flatfooted.
This effect lasts 1 round or until the opponent’s next
turn, whichever comes first.
Opponents that can’t be caught fl at-footed, such as characters
who have uncanny dodge, cannot be affected by Surprising
Riposte.
Special: A fighter can select Surprising Riposte as a fighter
bonus feat.


So, Invisible Blade + Surprising Riposte = as many sneak attacks as you like against a single target per round.

[Krazzman]

From what I saw so far (I'm thinking about this too atm for my GF that wants to play a trapdisabler and dungeonexpert).

Basic Combat:
Rogue1/Swashbuckler1/Rogue3/Swashbuckler15.
Feats: TWF-line + Daring Outlaw + a few open to you. Focus on Dex and Intelligence. (Add Craven)

Advanced for combat:
Human Swordsage/Rogue/Swashbuckler/Rogue/Swordsage.
Start with Adaptive Style and Shadow Blade, OR Able Learner, Shadowblade and take Adaptive style on level 3. Craven on 6.

Other useful dips:
Sneakattack Thug Fighter (Unearthed Arcana 2 class variants that are stackable)
Cleric1 (Domains and you get access to Gravestrike for yourself)
Warlock2 (gives 2 invocations and Detect Magic for free, Spiderclimb and See the Unseen would be awesome).

Useful ACF's:
Penetrating Strike (? no clue where it is, still have to look this one up myself)
Changeling Rogue (10+int skillpoints instead of 8+Int)
Psychic Rogue (was already mentioned)

Prestige classes:
Assassin (gives Int-based spellcasting + advances sneakattack and your normally needed skills)
Masterthrower (hurts like hell on later levels, although you should find a supply of regrowing shurikens)

Races:
Human (Bonus Feat, can take Able Learner, +1 Bonus Skillpoint)
Strongheart Halfling (Bonus to AC and Skills, Bonus to Dex, Bonus Feat)
Changeling (Disguise chenanigans, able to get into Warshaper[debatable] for partial crit immunity, can take able learner, skill bonus and able to take a Racial ACF. Found in Eberron Campaign Setting)
Whisper Gnome (-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 cha. Silence 1/day, bonus to skills and AC, other spell like abilities if you have at least 10 cha)

Hope this helps.

[HunterOfJello]

From what I saw so far (I'm thinking about this too atm for my GF that wants to play a trapdisabler and dungeonexpert).

If your GF wants to play a trapdisabler and dungeonexpert, then set her up with 5 levels in Trapsmith from Dungeonscape. The class is amazing at dealing with traps, and has an amazing spell list.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Add in a level of Warlock, along side Eldritch Glaive, and make Sneak Attacks as touch attacks. At will.

[Azoth]

Not the most power, but still efficient is: Rogue4/Ranger2/Dread Commando5/Nightsong Enforcer9

Penatrating Strike ACF, Trap Master ACF for Rangers, The Dread Commando ACF trading Armor Ease for 5% concealment per level in "natural" environments.

+19BAB, 6 or 7 D6 Sneak Attack, 3d6 Sudden Strike (for what it is worth), decent saves, and plenty of skill points to go around.

It eats 3 feats for pre-reqs though. 2 of which are garbage (I am looking at you Dodge + Mobility) and one decent one...Improved Initiative.

So human 2 flaws could get by with:

(Flaw1) Dodge
(Flaw2) Mobility
(Human) Improved Initiative
(1) Darkstalker
(3) Weapon Finess
(Rngr2) TWF
(6) Martial Study (Shadow jaunt)
(9) Martial Stance (Assassin Stance)
(12) Shadow Blade
(15) ITWF
(18) Free Feat

[nedz]

Rogue with either a 2, 4 or 6 level Warlock dip.

2 levels:
Det Magic at will, two least invocations and a ranged touch magical delivery method for your sneak attacks.

4 levels:
Det Magic at will, three least invocations, Skill mastery on UMD (yes please) and a better ranged touch magical delivery method for your sneak attacks.

6 levels:
Det Magic at will, three least invocations, one lesser invocation, Skill mastery on UMD (yes please), a better still ranged touch magical delivery method for your sneak attacks, and the ability to burn a feat for a new least invocation.

[mattie_p]

Too long to quote without posting a wall of text, but Curmudgeon had a nice treatment of a rogue not that long ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13388822&postcount=10).

[elvengunner69]

Kind of a simple way to add extra damage:

Rogue 11/Scout 9 6d6 of sneak attack damage and anytime you move 10' you add another 3d6 in Skirmish damage.

Not optimized but still good...though I like to make the following with Rogues...

Cleric4(Olidammara)/Scout5/Rogue11

Go invisible to start fight and get in behind opponent then activate a Ring of Blinking in case they are on to you

Always had a lot of fun with this kind of build - not optimized obviously but fun. :)

[Melcar]

If I have two feats from two different sources, with the same name, that said, that it raises the sneak attack dice by one faktor, like from d6 to d8, and you take them both, then you raise from d6 to d10. Because its from two different sources, ant i doesnt say that I cant take them both... Well I would say that it works just fine.

[nedz]

If I have two feats from two different sources, with the same name, that said, that it raises the sneak attack dice by one faktor, like from d6 to d8, and you take them both, then you raise from d6 to d10. Because its from two different sources, ant i doesnt say that I cant take them both... Well I would say that it works just fine.

Examples and sources please ?

There are too many of these for us to give a general answer, and they are all different.

[Flickerdart]

Well no you cant have that high skill. you would have to take normal rogue levels in between, I thought that was understood.
Normal classes can't be used in the same game as Generic classes, we went over this already.


and unless its stated that you CANT take the feat more than once you can.
Wrong. The rules clearly state that "If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description."



And by the way, Im not taking the same feat more than once, im taking diferent feats from diferent book by same name.
Irrelevant. If a feat or class feature has the same name and does the same thing, it's the same feat. It's why you can't stack multiple Divine Graces and have monster saves.

[LanSlyde]

Well then, here comes my post for the day.

Rogue3/Ranger2/Assassin2/Telflammar Shadowlord6/Thug SA Fighter 7

16BAB, 7d6 SA, Replace rogues trap senses with Penetrating Strike. Of course, if you don't need the SA dmg you could keep the Fighter Bonus feats.

[JaronK]

One combo doesn't use classes but is just amazing for stealthers. Necropolitan (created near a Desecrated Altar, preferably by a Dread Necromancer or UA Variant Necromancer Wizard) Whisper Gnome with Lifesense and Hidden Talent. As a Necropolitan, you're immune to a heck of a lot of things and you can dump con. You can see all living enemies glowing, making them very easy to spot. And you can use Hidden Talent to generate Black Lots or Sinmaker's Surprise poison via Psionic Minor Creation, thus giving you a very powerful attack. Lots of fun.

JaronK

[Melcar]

... Where does it say, that generic cant be used in a game with normal classes... Page and book needed.

... where does it say that if to things have the same name its the same feat? Page and book needed.

[Melcar]

What is the best rogue build you can think of? The only rule is you can't multiclass into a caster class. This only applies to full casting classing, Wizard, Beguiler, etc.

Oh yeah... It says the only rule is that I cant multiclass caster! So even though that im using the same feat twise, and mixing normal and generic classes im answering the question.

[Snowbluff]

No Staggering Strike?
No Telling Blow?

People, I am ashamed.

How about about:

RogueX/DiscipleofDispater8

With Improved Critical, you can crit, and therefore Sneak Attack, more than half the time with a high crit weapon. While SA dice damage does not multiply would not crit, Craven might (depends on your reading). Plus, Power Attack is also on your list.

I'd suggest the Greathorn Minotaur Hammer, since it has a threat range AND had x4 while still being made of iron.

If you are playing PF, Butterfly Sting with Dragonsplits (MM4). When you crit, forgo it to deal the x4 damage (Craven + Power Attack) with the other end of the Dragonsplit.

I had one more thing for this... oh, Iaijutsu Master might work here as well. Iaijutsu focus is generally an easy way to get more damage versus a flat footed opponent.

[JaronK]

... Where does it say, that generic cant be used in a game with normal classes... Page and book needed.

Same book as the one the generics were printed in (Unearthed Arcana), same area (page 76).

Specifically: "If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the character classes in the Player's Handbook (or the variants of those classes presented in this book). You can still include prestige classes..."


... where does it say that if to things have the same name its the same feat? Page and book needed.

If the feats have the same name and do the same thing, it's just a reprint of the same feat. That's... kind of obvious, really.

JaronK

[mattie_p]

... Where does it say, that generic cant be used in a game with normal classes... Page and book needed.

How about the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)? This is from Unearthed Arcana (book) page number unknown, but you have a hyperlink.


Generic Classes
The variety of class options available to characters can seem overwhelming. Though that variety can lead to interesting and exciting combinations, a game master who desires to run a simpler campaign (while still allowing for character variety) can use these "generic" character classes in place of the standard character classes.

The three generic classes here—warrior, expert, and spellcaster—cover the common roles of a group of adventurers. (Despite sharing names with NPC classes, the warrior and expert presented here are very different from those classes.) But despite these classes' basic approaches to character building, each one allows a wide variety of archetypes through the selection of skills and feats.

If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes.


... where does it say that if to things have the same name its the same feat? Page and book needed.

Melcar - the feats you referred to are in 3rd party books that most people do not own, nor are permitted sources in most campaigns referenced on this board. I have no idea of the wording of those feats, nor the publishers. Without that, I have no idea if the feats are identical or not.

I'm trying to track down the source for the "later source" rule commonly referred to on this forum. Namely, when WoTC published a spell or feat, that was later again published, the most recent version took precedence. This obviously has no bearing on 3rd party books, so I can't help you there. But the bottom line is, without anyone else seeing the feats, and without them being permitted in most games, the advice may not be helpful.

[Cranthis]

Oh yeah... It says the only rule is that I cant multiclass caster! So even though that im using the same feat twise, and mixing normal and generic classes im answering the question.

I thought it was pretty obvious that we are still following the rules of the game.

[WhatBigTeeth]

What about a thrown weapon assassin?


RACE: Strongheart Halfling, going Necropolitan

Lvl|Class |Feats |Class Features |Spells Known
---+----------------+-------------------------------------------+----------------------------------------------|------------------------
1 |Halfling Rogue 1|Point Blank Shot, Faerie Mysteries Initiate|Thrown SA 2d6, Mimic |
2 |Ranger 1 |Track |Trapfinding, Spiritual Connection |
3 |Ranger 2 |Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus | |
4 |Rogue 2 | |Evasion |
5 |Halfling Rogue 3| |Reroll failed Reflex saves, Thrown SA 3d6 |
6 |Assassin 1 |Precise Shot |Thrown SA 4d6, Death Attack, Poison Use |Distract Assailant (1), Ebon Eyes (1)
7 |Master Thrower 1|Quickdraw |Trip Shot |
8 |Assassin 2 | |Uncanny Dodge, +1 Save v. Poisons |Sniper's Shot (1)
9 |Assassin 3 |Darkstalker |Thrown SA 5d6 |Alter Self (2), Swift Invisibility (2)
10|Assassin 4 | |+2 Save v. Poisons |Fire Shuriken (2), Shock and Awe (1)
11|Assassin 5 | |Thrown SA 6d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge |Nondetection (3), Magic Circle Against Good (3)
12|Assassin 6 |Practiced Spellcaster |+3 Save v. Poisons |Sadism (3), Darklight (2)
13|Assassin 7 | |Thrown SA 7d6 |Freedom of Movement (4), Shadow Form (4)
14|Master Thrower 2| |Feign Death (through retraining with Rogue) |
15|Master Thrower 3|Improved Precise Shot |Palm Throw Trick |
16|Master Thrower 4|Snatch Arrows | |
17|Master Thrower 5| |Weak Spot Trick, Critical Throw |
18|Assassin 8 |Keen Intellect |Hide in Plain Sight, +4 Save v. Poisons |Greater Invisibility (4), Create Fetch (3)
19|Unseen Seer 1 | |Thrown SA 8d6 |
20|Unseen Seer 2 | |Advanced Learning, Silent Spell |Assassin's Darkness (4), Hunter's Eye (2)

[Melcar]

I thought it was pretty obvious that we are still following the rules of the game.

I know, I was simply trying to imply that you could use this build. Just as I do in my campaing. As an NPC, but im using it at the moment.

Ofc people should use whatever works for them, for me this works!

[Flickerdart]

I know, I was simply trying to imply that you could use this build. Just as I do in my campaing. As an NPC, but im using it at the moment.
They can't, because it's an illegal build for something like ten different reasons that have been outlined in the thread. You may allow it in your game, but that doesn't make it possible in others.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, +1 on Psychic Rogue 20 and Factotum 20...

[Melcar]

They can't, because it's an illegal build for something like ten different reasons that have been outlined in the thread. You may allow it in your game, but that doesn't make it possible in others.

Gygax once said that the one rule often forgotten is that you need no rule!

[Gnaeus]

Many of the builds above would benefit from Marrulurk (like, all the ranged builds).
+2 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Wis, +4 Cha. Yes, that is +22 in ability score bonuses, and yes, that is insane. They also get tons of other stuff, like 2d6 Sneak Attack and a Cha-based Death Attack, Point-blank Shot and Rapid Shot as bonus feats, +2 Natural Armor, lots of skill bonuses (Hide, Move Silently, Listen),awesome senses, Longbow proficiency, Poison Use. 3 Monstrous Humanoid RHD and LA +1

Also, you look like Anubis, which I consider a +

[Gavinfoxx]

Gygax once said that the one rule often forgotten is that you need no rule!

That's because he encouraged a very very aberrant gaming style compared to what is considered normal and to be encouraged on these boards.

[Flickerdart]

Gygax once said that the one rule often forgotten is that you need no rule!
"Screw the system!" is completely useless when someone is asking for advice about the system.

[nedz]

Quoting Gygax is like quoting the Bible — you can find whatever answer you want.

In this case he spends a great deal of time and effort in making a highly complex game, and then says "Screw the rules, you don't need them."

[chaos_redefined]

Marrulurk, as mentioned, is pretty good for +1 LA, 3 racial hit dice. (It's even better than some +4 LA stuff, and they don't give you any racial hit dice to compensate)

Depending on what you are after, Marrulurk Rogue 16, Factotum 20, Psychic Rogue 20, or Swordsage 20 are all quite powerful, and quite simple. For the last three, either Human, Strongheart Halfling, or Whisper Gnome are your best races. Up to you.

Marrulurk Rogue 16 gives you your usual rogue goodies (with full sneak attack), but you gain some of your high level abilities earlier, and they are poison use, death attacks, and some bonus feats. And some bonuses to skill, a massive bonus to dex, etc...

Factotum is like rogue, but instead of sneak attack, you are passable at every role. So, if you need a fighter right now, you are a fighter, right now, until you need some spells. At which point, you are a passable arcane spellcaster, until you need to heal people. You get the basic idea.

Psychic Rogue loses out on some sneak attack, and gains psionic powers. Remember: Psionic Powers have no verbal components, so can be manifested while hiding, and no somatic components, so can be manifested while unable to move. This might be disqualified for casting though... Although it's as much a "full caster" as a bard is

Swordsage is based off maneuvers, but fights like you would expect a rogue to, with disappearing acts and a fair few extra-damage-based-off-circumstance style things.

[Gavinfoxx]

Factotum has several methods of getting per-attack bonus damage. And they aren't really every role; their role is 'skills', generally, and they can do some other stuff in every role. But their roll is 'skills' for sure. If you want to be able to do [x role] that day, you need to prestige into Chameleon as Factotum.

[Flickerdart]

Factotums may have class features that let them do lots of stuff fairly well, but they still need to be optimized for a particular combat tactic to shine. You just get to choose from a great deal of them, and some (Iaijutsu Focus or Cunning Strike) will be Roguish while some (Brains Over Brawn + tripping people) won't be.

[Snowbluff]

Marrulurk, as mentioned, is pretty good for +1 LA, 3 racial hit dice. (It's even better than some +4 LA stuff, and they don't give you any racial hit dice to compensate)


Marrulurk is awesome. It gives you Full BaB for 3 levels, with full SA. The Death Attack is a Cha based ability, making it scale pretty well thanks to the 'Lurk's bonus to Cha. I like ot use them for Warlocks.

[chaos_redefined]

Factotum has several methods of getting per-attack bonus damage. And they aren't really every role; their role is 'skills', generally, and they can do some other stuff in every role. But their roll is 'skills' for sure. If you want to be able to do [x role] that day, you need to prestige into Chameleon as Factotum.

If the party desperately needs someone extra to stand up front and take hits, and the factotum has enough spare inspiration points, he can do passably. If the party desperately needs someone to act as a wizard, he can do it passably. Sure, someone dedicated to the role would do it better, but they could only do that one role. A factotum is a chameleon who can change role more easily, but isn't as good at those roles. The ability to change tactics is quite handy. And as pointed out, if they dedicate enough resources to a role, they do that role quite well.

But yes, they do skills better than most people.


Marrulurk is awesome. It gives you Full BaB for 3 levels, with full SA. The Death Attack is a Cha based ability, making it scale pretty well thanks to the 'Lurk's bonus to Cha. I like ot use them for Warlocks.

This needs to be compared with what you would be taking instead. 4 levels of rogue gives you +3 BAB and +2d6 sneak attack. The death attack is unique... But the 4 levels of rogue has advantages too, especially if you were planning on taking rogue anyway. For example, at higher levels, it can give you an extra special ability. A rogue 10 has a special ability, while a marrulurk rogue 6 would not.

[Gnaeus]

This needs to be compared with what you would be taking instead. 4 levels of rogue gives you +3 BAB and +2d6 sneak attack. The death attack is unique... But the 4 levels of rogue has advantages too, especially if you were planning on taking rogue anyway. For example, at higher levels, it can give you an extra special ability. A rogue 10 has a special ability, while a marrulurk rogue 6 would not.

So Rogue 4 vs marrulurk.
Rogue gives 4d6 hp, marrulurk gives 3d8 + a con bonus that will keep on giving. (advantage marrulurk)

Rogue gives faster progression to high level rogue abilities.
Marrulurk gets The death attack (which I never find useful)
A breath weapon (also crummy)
Fire and dessication resistance 5 (decent)
3 free feats that any ranged rogue will want ANYWAY (point blank and precise shot and longbow proficiency)
Poison use (good if you arent taking assassin)

Marrulurk has less skill points than rogue, but its +4 racial on Hide, Listen and Move Silently more than make up for it, and as you go up in levels, the INT bonus helps you catch up. Advantage Marrulurk

Low Light and Darkvision (you plan on sneaking around in the dark, right?)
Discriminating Hearing (this is somewhere between scent and blindsense in its level of awesome. Do one will sneak up on you if they move or breathe.) Advantage Marrulurk

Rogue gets +1 Fort and Will, +3 ref. Lurk Gets +3 will, +3 ref, but factoring in stat bonuses, +6 Reflex, +6 Will, +2 Con. Advantage Marrulurk

Which special ability makes up for all that?

[WhatBigTeeth]

Marrulurk has less skill points than rogue, but its +4 racial on Hide, Listen and Move Silently more than make up for it, and as you go up in levels, the INT bonus helps you catch up. Advantage Marrulurk
Marrulurk doesn't have and INT bonus

Human rogue 4 with 10 int = 63 skill points
Marrulurk with 10 int = 12 skill points

Calling that a marrulurk victory, even with 19 effective points of skill bonus for stealth/perception, is one hell of a longshot. Especially if you're playing catchup on cross-class marrulurk skills.

The race is great race for a blender, but it not without meaningful downsides.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The high bonus on all the other abilities does free up some points to put into Int; but yeah 2+int can't be compared to 8+int.

[Curmudgeon]

3 free feats that any ranged rogue will want ANYWAY (point blank and precise shot and longbow proficiency)
Longbow proficiency isn't worth a feat. Compared to the shortbow proficiency every Rogue gets it's +1 average damage, which is piddly relative to sneak attack.

Also note that neither Rogue sneak attack nor Marrulurk sneak attack include any stacking language, so a Marrulurk Rogue has 2 sets of non-stacking sneak attack; you roll separately and use the better total. Only if you add another class which does include stacking language will you be able to add together all those sneak attack dice. You're starting 4 levels behind a straight Rogue, and still need some extra effort (levels) before the race choice becomes a reasonable one.

[Snowbluff]

Marrulurk doesn't have and INT bonus

Human rogue 4 with 10 int = 63 skill points
Marrulurk with 10 int = 12 skill points

Calling that a marrulurk victory, even with 19 effective points of skill bonus for stealth/perception, is one hell of a longshot. Especially if you're playing catchup on cross-class marrulurk skills.

The race is great race for a blender, but it not without meaningful downsides.


The high bonus on all the other abilities does free up some points to put into Int; but yeah 2+int can't be compared to 8+int.

When it comes to beating things up, Marrulurk wins decisively. When it comes to statting, higher scores are harder to accumalate. the benefits of being a Marrulurk are unobtainable elsewhere, and to obtain similiar ranks, you have more you can put into Int than you otherwise could. You don't have to spend so much to have decent Dex/Con.


Re: Stacking language: Considering almost every other source of SA stacks, no one should care. I don't see any precedent for it not stacking in the first place.

[Curmudgeon]

Re: Stacking language: Considering almost every other source of SA stacks, no one should care. I don't see any precedent for it not stacking in the first place.
Almost every other source of sneak attack stacks because almost every other source has language which explicitly says it stacks. Without that language you're left with the basic stacking rule:

Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies.
Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If an arcane trickster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels) the bonuses on damage stack.
Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels) the bonuses on damage stack.
Sneak Attack: This ability, gained at 4th level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level beyond 4th (7th and 10th). If a blackguard gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels) the bonuses on damage stack.