on death scenes

[Kol Korran]

(The time I spend on threads when trying to avoid learning for tests... :smallsigh:)

Anyway, on another thread I was directed to Spock's death scene, and then his funeral. Which made me think... I mostly play D&D, in which when a character nears death they usualy die instantly, without the chance for a death scene. I know some players (myself included) who would probably love to play such a scene for a beloved character.

How do you handle it in your games? is death abrupt, or more on touch with the dramatic (whether you agree it should be so or not). if the latter is true, how do you accommodate such death scenes, when there may not be a time for them in the game's circumstances?

And another question- I've also rarely seen "transition to the after life" sort of rituals or scenes played out. it might be just my group, or is it common practice? do some of you play it out? (and yes, i know that D&D and other games have means of coming back. not talking about these instances). I'm curious as how do you manage it, and are there any especially good stories?

thanks in advance!

[Incorrect]

A problem with death scenes in many games, is the option of healing magic and powers. If someone is dying, the heroes will just throw around some spells, and they should be okay.
In these instances you really have to create something very unique in order to make the death non-reversible.

If the players want the dying person dead, of cause they wont help, but they might just kill him more, ending the scene quickly. I know my players would yell "I shoot him some more. I kill him until he is dead!"

Because of this, my death scenes tend to be very short. Limited to a sentence or two, and maybe a few reactions. Any longer and my players will try to find something to do about the situation. Either hurting or helping.
I guess that a very long death scene could be a bit boring, as it is essentially scripted. The person has to die, the heroes dont get to save him, it is the end.

I have never had a real death scene for a PC, but its something that would be cool to try and roleplay.

[ArcturusV]

It doesn't happen too much in my experience. I mean 99% of the deaths in a campaign you see are typically of the unexpected, momentary kind. Like the Emergency Eject failed on my Mech and I got blown up with a volley of missiles and died instantaneously.

Sometimes, the PCs will do things like make a monument to the fallen, have a little scene, etc, and have their moment. But that's more the exception than the rule. More common is a revenge based killing spree, both as it can serve as that emotional release AND get the players "back on track" if they're a group who prefers rewards, combat, etc.

It's really that 1% where what you're talking about comes into play. Some character gets poisoned or diseased on a mission and no one can manage to fix it. You need that "Death is inevitable" feeling to give time to properly build up the death scene. Even if the inevitable death doesn't take that long, like Spock's poisoning as mentioned, where he's dead in a few minutes. Gives time for all those deathbed moments and to really show the despair and helplessness that a survivor feels in those situations. THEN you typically have the much more moving Funeral/Wake scene, which does happen.

An example would be in a Sci-Fi RPG I did about 20 years ago. One of the PCs had the terrible, terrible luck to contract a horrible alien disease that was pretty much guaranteed to kill him in the course of 5 very painful days (If not worse). No one had a hope for curing him as they lacked the technology or know-how to do it at the time (The team's Doctor bit it during an ambush on the planet and no one else had anywhere near the training to be able to even have a slim chance to succeed). So he had his short scene where he reconciled all his relationships with the surviving PCs. Then told the Team's Scientist to basically use him as a test subject to compile research on this disease so others may combat it later. PCs did so, had an Empty Casket Funeral (Couldn't use his actual body as it was being preserved for SCIENCE). It was unexpected but most players found it VERY memorable and was one of their favorite moments in the game.

[Lapak]

I had this come up just the other day, actually, when my character died in a PbP campaign of Dungeon World. (All the aspects you mention, actually: dramatic death scene, transition-to-afterlife scene, and entombment.) I think that both the play-by-post environment and the DW ruleset lends itself more to death scenes; the pace of play in PbP is more drawn-out to begin with and hitting 0 HP in Dungeon World explicitly involves an encounter with Death embodied, whether you survive the experience or not.

It's also easier if death comes at a climax - if someone falls halfway through a battle, it's hard to shift focus to their moment when everyone else's life still hangs in the balance. A death in the last moment works; as in my case, mutual annihilation with the villain; or as with Spock, when the death is a sacrifice directly in service of eliminating a threat - any of that means that there is a natural break in the immediate aftermath for handling things while the (in-character and out-of-character) emotion is still there.

Actual death scene follows, if you're interested; my bard has just fallen to the final counter-attack from an orc shaman, which he delivered as she ran him through.
The red liquid bubbles at the elf’s lips, dribbling down her cheek. Her hair is matted with sweat and blood, plastered across her face. Her eyes open and unseeing.

-

The gaping maws of death intersect one another as they taunt Aliera, teeth rolling around teeth, tongues intertwining. “Below you are the waters of the Oubliette, the river of Stygia, known in the mortal tongue as the Styx. In its embrace, all is forgotten. For some, with lives of pain and regret, bathing in the river is as close to paradise as they can hope to achieve. But for you, elf. You who are long of life. You whose very identity is tied to stories, to legends, to histories, to memories. The river is not merely death. It is oblivion…”

-

Lilliastre is vaguely aware of the spectral blue mist coiling around them and up into the sarcophagus. Aliera’s not breathing. Her heart is not beating. Her fiddle is lying not too far away.

-

Death’s seven segmented finger uncurls, trailing spirals of mist with the scent of screaming children. But a gauntleted hand lands on Aliera’s shoulder. “This one is coming with me” says a firm but pleasant voice, “Her sacrifice freed me from damnation and servitude. The least I could do is to return the favor”. Death coils back upon itself, ropy entrails lashing like tentacles.

-

The shaman is lying on his side in an expanding pool of black blood, rapier embedded to the hilt in his chest. One arm is outstretched, reaching for the golden scepter even as the last of his life bled away.

-

Rising out of the foaming waters is a stony spire of jade, where a dozen orcs cling desperately to a surface that could barely accommodate one. Perched at the very top, the orc shaman clings desperately with one hand while the other is open to the crawling sky in supplication. “Best keep an eye on that one” says the strong woman’s voice, always behind Aliera “the orc’s master will be trying to steal that soul back from you.”

-

“Go” Sir Havenstead says quietly to the rest of the party, motioning to the central platform with his shattered stone sword. “I’ll follow you shortly.”

-

“Come” says the Sightless Saint, her eyes bright and dancing with life. “The time of singing about other heroes is over. Let others sing of you instead.”

(Link in case someone wants the lead-up and aftermath; things come to a head starting around here (http://forumopolis.com/showthread.php?p=4123471).)

[Craft (Cheese)]

Remedying this problem has been one of my goals in a homebrew system I've been developing: The idea is PCs can't die without the player's consent, and when they do die the player gets massive (but not complete) narrative power over the events related to this death (before, during, and after). It should be noted that this kind of game is decidedly not-D&D.

It does its job of ensuring that death scenes are always long and full of meaning and consequences, but the main problem I've run into is pacing. Often, death completely breaks the flow of the scene in which it occurs by turning something previously unimportant into a huge spectacle. I've yet to make enough progress on the problem to be able to usefully discuss solutions, however.

[1337 b4k4]

In modern cinema, main characters don't die until the battle is over and everyone has had the chance to rush over and cradle the dying characters head. There's no reason why this couldn't play out the same way in RPGs. Death takes the character out of the fight, but they don't become dead dead until after the battle.

In my OD&D campaign, I introduced the following rules:

When a character reaches 0HP, they are dead. The player has 2 options at this point, they can stay out of the fight, and their character is eligible for healing magics, resurrections etc, or they can choose to go down in a blaze of glory.

If they choose to go out in a blaze of glory, they have a number of rounds equal to their constitution (originally was modifier, but wasn't epic enough). During this time, the player rolls a d30 for all dice rolls, both hits and damage. Anything >= 20 is a critical with damage applied as [max weapon] + 1d30.

In either case, at the end of battle a character is eligible for a death scene. The death scene is a chance for bonus XP to apply to the player's next character. Generally, no bonus XP will be awarded if the other players did not like the scene, and the value increases the more they liked it, but is ultimately at DMs discretion.

After a death scene, the remaining characters are eligible to perform burial / last rites for their fallen comrade. This time, the last rites are a chance for the surviving characters to earn bonus XP. The XP is again at the DMs ultimate discretion, but this time is based on whether the player whose character died liked the burial scene, and how much.

Basically, if you want death scenes are burial scenes, then you have to encourage them. RPGs don't award bonuses for playing out latrine scenes, so no one does (also they're disgusting, awkward and uncomfortable when people do), but if there was an XP bonus, you can bet people would. The same applies here, if you want players to take an action, there must be a reward for that action.

[Guizonde]

reading through the fluff i remembered that only characters who want to come back to life can. you can't bring back a person who's content being dead... so a character who dies and who's player wants to reroll would be the scenario i imagine could create a great death scene and burial sequence.

@1997 b4k4: that is awesome. i have to give that idea to my dm (he enjoys killing characters waaaaaaay too much)

[Jane_Smith]

Personally I find the drama of the killing blow+ to be a bit to drawn out for my taste. Sure, it has its moments, but the real enjoyment is the final stand of a good, but losing fight that has some purpose like letting your allies get away, stalling for time so the mage can get teleport the townsfolk out of the bombs radius, so on.

A friend of mine told me he was in a game once a long time ago where one of his party members was a orcish fighter. He was strong, rowdy, and a bit immature, but over the course of the adventure became a brother-figure to them all and had, on several occasions, managed to single handedly save them from a TPK cause he was so optimized and strong without being a pure cheese-cake munchkin, and it fit the story and orcish strength just fine. But the orc finally met his match when the party found themselves pitted against a death knight and his small army of undead, with there paladin knocked unconscious and almost dead, he had the party flee. All of them did except for the mage of the group, who the orc grabbed and threw down the stairs leading to the exit to keep him from throwing his life away. He turned around and charged right for the death knight and went toe to toe with him and his minions for a good 12 rounds, killed more undead then he could count and gave the death knight some new holes before he finally just ran out of time, options, and hit points. (Keep in mind, this was a level 4 party, this death knight was like a level 16 undead warlord with a posse of ghouls/etcl).

[SgtCarnage92]

Something I would consider using is instead of having -10 hp be dead, have it be the body has suffered so much trauma that even advanced healing magics cannot save them. Give them a couple rounds to say their goodbyes before passing on. This allows for a character to make the deathbed confession or have their last moment. However you have the risk of slipping into the melodramatic.

On the other hand, I think a sudden death can have a significant impact as well. There is something to be said for looking over and seeing your friend be impaled on some big monster's massive claw and thrown aside. It's quick, it's cruel, but that's sort of the point. It illustrates something about death that the drawn out scene doesn't, it can sneak up on you. I've been the victim in this sort of death scene and I accepted it because there is no way my character could have had a chance.

When it comes to death scenes the first thing to consider is why is this character dying? Not every character gets the epic "last stand" death scene. Not every character has to deal with the "sudden and shocking" death scene. Not every character gets to make that last confession.

That's part of death, you don't know when it's going to happen and you don't know what chance if any you will have to say what you always wished you could. Last words aren't always profound and dramatic. Last words are often mundane and otherwise boring. I think removing that uncertainty cheapens death somewhat.

[prufock]

There's no reason you can't cinematize a death scene. Character hits -10 hit points, he's dead - if the party doesn't have a way to resurrect him or he doesn't want to come back, that is - but you can still describe a scene.

Player: I'm at -11, I'm dead.
DM: You grasp at the gaping wound in your chest as Malicious the Mage sneers. He pulls you close and whispers "Now you'll never know the secret to my power." He swings his blade in a wide arc, severing your head from your body.

or
Player 1: I'm at -11, I'm dead.
Player 2: I roll a natural 20 to hit Malicious the Mage. Confirmed crit. Damage is... 84.
DM: Malicious falls under the cut of your waraxe. However, it's too late, a killing blow has been dealt to Player 1. He is wounded beyond even magical healing. Feel free to have some final words, here.

[Jay R]

Having last words is usually difficult, because there's a fight going on. Wasn't it convenient that no orcs attacked Eowyn while she was listening to Theoden's dying words?

There is, however, a standard ceremony which many players observe, at the first opportunity, to commemorate the death of a comrade.

It is known colloquially as "looting the body".

[CoffeeIncluded]

Having last words is usually difficult, because there's a fight going on. Wasn't it convenient that no orcs attacked Eowyn while she was listening to Theoden's dying words?

There is, however, a standard ceremony which many players observe, at the first opportunity, to commemorate the death of a comrade.

It is known colloquially as "looting the body".

If they really like the character, or the player wants to keep playing as that character, then they also cut off a finger or ear or something for later resurrection. Of course, their items won't exactly sit and collect dust in the meantime.

[scurv]

I give this choice when a char dies.
You can swiftly die, and your next char is the groups level, minus two with Some gear. and have a chance to be raised if the party wishs

Or you may have your con or wisdom in rounds to act after death to act, But with no chance to be raised and your next one starts out level one and necked.
Very few choose the latter.

[Guizonde]

I give this choice when a char dies.
You can swiftly die, and your next char is the groups level, minus two with Some gear. and have a chance to be raised if the party wishs

Or you may have your con or wisdom in rounds to act after death to act, But with no chance to be raised and your next one starts out level one and necked.
Very few choose the latter.

doesn't that mean that one could heal himself? sounds like a barbarian's rage to buy him a few rounds to get back into positive hps... [/loophole abuse]

[scurv]

doesn't that mean that one could heal himself? sounds like a barbarian's rage to buy him a few rounds to get back into positive hps... [/loophole abuse]

That is actions after death We call it final breath for a reason. You can invoke it but there is in char and out of char costs. But occasionally someone feels it is worth it to do.

But one of the costs is, No raise. No heal and you are a dead man walking.

Even if a Samurai's head were to be suddenly cut off, he should still be able to perform one more action with certainty. If one becomes like a revengeful ghost and shows great determination, though his head is cut off, he should not die.
Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai

[prufock]

Having last words is usually difficult, because there's a fight going on.

You can always wait until after the encounter ends.

DM: Player 1 is lying motionless on the ground, beyond the help of all but the most powerful magic. Have some last words if you wish.

[Hyena]

Death is something no one notices or remembers after five minutes (to loot the body). It is as quick as the blaster shot, and usually the dying character has two or three last words.

[Guizonde]

Death is something no one notices or remembers after five minutes (to loot the body). It is as quick as the blaster shot, and usually the dying character has two or three last words.

"rez... me... plz"[/dead as doornail]

:smallbiggrin:

[Hyena]

Well, I usually play SWSE where resurrection is not an option, so the last words usually are "Just knew I shouldn't do it".

[Niblick]

I like my fantasy gaming to be realistic and gritty. Not, as someone mentioned above, the raging battle for the sake of the world just stops so two people can talk. As such, the campaign I play in has none of that ridiculousness.

A death in battle should be just that. Someone goes down and doesn't get back up. There was one time when one of our party got bit by two spiders in the same round. We play 2e (kinda fits with the more realism thing my group goes for) and the onset time for the poison was 15 minutes. 30 points of damage all at once was sure to kill him. He kind of had a death scene, but at least it made sense.

[Kaveman26]

Having last words is usually difficult, because there's a fight going on. Wasn't it convenient that no orcs attacked Eowyn while she was listening to Theoden's dying words?

There is, however, a standard ceremony which many players observe, at the first opportunity, to commemorate the death of a comrade.

It is known colloquially as "looting the body".

"So it was that Isildur son of the king...took up his fathers sword...and his father's boots and his fathers cloak and lo he did raise his dagger and cut the purse strings from the fallen king. He had this one chance to vanquish evil and he instead looted the not yet cold body of his father"

If LoTR was more like actual D&D

[scurv]

I have made groups justify their looting of the dead before. As in I have removed paladin and cleric abilities from PC's before for doing such an act.

[Niblick]

I have made groups justify their looting of the dead before. As in I have removed paladin and cleric abilities from PC's before for doing such an act.

This I like.

[Kol Korran]

I had this come up just the other day, actually, when my character died in a PbP campaign of Dungeon World.
Oh, it has been a long time since I played PbP. I'm not patient enough I guess for it's pace. But the more literary nature of PbP probably does lend itself to death scenes more readily.


Remedying this problem has been one of my goals in a homebrew system I've been developing: The idea is PCs can't die without the player's consent, and when they do die the player gets massive (but not complete) narrative power over the events related to this death (before, during, and after).

...

I've yet to make enough progress on the problem to be able to usefully discuss solutions, however.
Interesting Concept, I'm not sure I understand it fully (what about the sense of constant danger? of mortality? of vulnerability?) But it is intriguing. I'd like to hear more if possible? perhaps over private messages if this thread isn't approriate?


Personally I find the drama of the killing blow+ to be a bit to drawn out for my taste. Sure, it has its moments, but the real enjoyment is the final stand of a good, but losing fight

I don't think one needs to replace the other. I also love a great last stand, valiant charge, sacrifice for the many and more, but I also liked some good death scenes at times. They do not contradict.




On the other hand, I think a sudden death can have a significant impact as well. There is something to be said for looking over and seeing your friend be impaled on some big monster's massive claw and thrown aside. It's quick, it's cruel, but that's sort of the point. It illustrates something about death that the drawn out scene doesn't, it can sneak up on you. I've been the victim in this sort of death scene and I accepted it because there is no way my character could have had a chance.

When it comes to death scenes the first thing to consider is why is this character dying? Not every character gets the epic "last stand" death scene. Not every character has to deal with the "sudden and shocking" death scene. Not every character gets to make that last confession.

That's part of death, you don't know when it's going to happen and you don't know what chance if any you will have to say what you always wished you could. Last words aren't always profound and dramatic. Last words are often mundane and otherwise boring. I think removing that uncertainty cheapens death somewhat.

I agree with you fully. It's just that in all my years of playing i've seen just 2 death scenes (I think) and countless quick death, quite a few of which (not the majority though) could have benefited from oh, 2-4 sentences to say to the party or close people? it could have closed those characters influence of the game much nicer.

I agree that most times death should be quick, surprising, merciless and abrupt. that is usually the death of adventurers. but to my opinion there is more place than there is currently for a bit more... end-of-the-way-roleplay?



Having last words is usually difficult, because there's a fight going on. Wasn't it convenient that no orcs attacked Eowyn while she was listening to Theoden's dying words?

There is, however, a standard ceremony which many players observe, at the first opportunity, to commemorate the death of a comrade.

It is known colloquially as "looting the body".

I don't say always, but there is a place for it sometime, probably more than there is on most D&D tables.

[ArcturusV]

Ah, yeah. You reminded me of the other "Death Scene". The one where a guy writes himself off as soon to be dead. The typical, "I'm dead already, you guys go! GO! I'll just buy you as much time as possible!"

Rarely happens in games. Though I do recall one game we were playing (Second Edition DnD) where my Cleric tried to do that (I was out of spells already and due to a bad critical fumble was hobbling along at half speed). So I made my stand against the incoming goblin horde after the short "Leave me and save yourselves" speech.

Then my DM informs me just for the hell of it, and because it Fit, he was going to use the Heroic Fray rule for that fight to see how long I could really hold them off for the team.

I ended up living. So sometimes that backfires.

[Andreaz]

On the other hand, I think a sudden death can have a significant impact as well. There is something to be said for looking over and seeing your friend be impaled on some big monster's massive claw and thrown aside. It's quick, it's cruel, but that's sort of the point. It illustrates something about death that the drawn out scene doesn't, it can sneak up on you.I've done that in one of my better deaths. It was a losing battle against a rather larg demonic army led by a third circle demon bearing Ligier's sword, and the three or four exalts couldn't beat the entire thing in time for reinforcements to arrive, nor could they outrun the organized troops, so while they fled miss dawn caste carved a path to the guy and fought him for maybe ten seconds before he impaled her with a sword larger than her waist should comport. At that point she of course pulled the sword further in to reach the guy and punch his face (and the siege engine behind him) off.
Dead as zed.

[Jay R]

I have made groups justify their looting of the dead before. As in I have removed paladin and cleric abilities from PC's before for doing such an act.

If my DM threatened to do this, within minutes the party would have a written contract stating that any items owned by one member can be used by other members when the owner is unavailable, and naming us all as each other's heirs.

[I have no problem with the DM making us justify looting the body. It's just so easy to do.]

[scurv]

If my DM threatened to do this, within minutes the party would have a written contract stating that any items owned by one member can be used by other members when the owner is unavailable, and naming us all as each other's heirs.

[I have no problem with the DM making us justify looting the body. It's just so easy to do.]

It depends on the alignment of the party and the PC's. If it was the villains group Well that is to be expected. But if it is some form of lawful or honorable party. I Expect them to live up to the alignment and be willing to accept the results of failing to do so.

For instance, I had one pc take a clan sward off the corpse of a fallen comrade and they made no effort to return the blade to the clan in question. The clan leader when word got back to him was less then amused. And yes the PC was given every chance to return it and they had warnings to know it was the expected thing to do in this situation.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I would just rule that sometimes -10 HP or equivalent isn't DEAD but past the point where healing or even magic can help, the character is incapacitated, and can get if they wish a few minutes of epic-last-dying-breath-speech.

[SgtCarnage92]

I agree with you fully. It's just that in all my years of playing i've seen just 2 death scenes (I think) and countless quick death, quite a few of which (not the majority though) could have benefited from oh, 2-4 sentences to say to the party or close people? it could have closed those characters influence of the game much nicer.

I can see where you're coming from on this entirely. As long as it doesn't turn into a monologue and get way too drawn out and overly dramatic I'm okay with it. There are a lot of death scenes in the media that get way too drawn out and I think they lose some of their impact that way.

One of my favorite examples of a well done death scene is in the movie Serenity:

Shepard Book. His death serves a purpose, it's short and sweet and in the end he doesn't get everything across that he probably wanted to but it still spurns Mal to do what he feel he needs to.