Why you should take your meds

[pendell]

Because strange, strange things happen when you don't (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10333211)

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[nedz]

This sounds just like a Cthulu game.

[Chess435]

This sounds just like a Cthulu game.

I wonder if his last name was Henderson. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson) :smallamused:

[fergo]

Well, that was brilliant :smallbiggrin:.

[TheThan]

Clearly he's pulling a practical joke and his depression is cured. Maybe he shouldn't be taking medicine anymore.

[Mauve Shirt]

I'm glad they clarified the puppy's whereabouts. I want to adopt it now, but it probably talks in a German accent and demands schweinebraten every night.
Wait, that's the perfect animal for me. Brb, adopting a puppy.

[Form]

This sounds just like a Cthulu game.

Yes, only stranger.

[Morph Bark]

I'm glad they clarified the puppy's whereabouts. I want to adopt it now, but it probably talks in a German accent and demands schweinebraten every night.

Would that make it a schweinhund? :smallamused::smalltongue:

[bombastinator]

Clearly he's pulling a practical joke and his depression is cured. Maybe he shouldn't be taking medicine anymore.

um... No.

Depression meds all have long blood level half lives because the ones with short half lives are simply too dangerous to take at all. varying the brain's blood chemistry serotonin or dopamine levels quickly is usually bad. If you have to stop or start taking one it is critical that you do it very very slowly. Different medications tend to have different cold turkey side effects that vary from person to person, but they are frequently awful. This guy apparently experienced a full on manic episode. That or he was trying to commit suicide by biker. Possibly both.

About 8 years ago I was put on zoloft, and then the psychopharmacologist lost his license (for over prescribing meds). I wound up going off cold turkey, and was ravingly paranoid for a month. The damage from that incident was actually far far worse than the actual original problem.

Anyone interested in going off or onto a neurological medication might do well to check out crazymeds.org. It's an anecdotal and research based forum that pays particular track of both documented and undocumented effects and side effects of such medications.

Bottom line: if you're on an anti-anxiety, anti-depressant, or mood stabilizer you MUST inform your doctor before you stop taking them and titrate down at AT LEAST according to the recommended guidelines. Frequently even slower.

These medications are amazing, very powerful and can change lives very much for the better, but with great power comes great responsibility.

[Amidus Drexel]

This sounds just like a Cthulu game.

The bikers were clearly hiding a shoggoth.

[The Glyphstone]

I wonder how the police got involved. It's unlikely that the Hells Angels called the cops on the guy.

[nedz]

I think the Stolen Bulldozer may have something to do with it.

[Jib]

Ohgodno I remember going of Zoloft once upon a time. I seriously thought someone was moving stuff around in my room while I was going to the bathroom, getting a sandwich, anything. Freaking retarded.

Now that Pot is legal in WA I have a better coping mechanism.

[Worlok]

Now that Pot is legal in WA I have a better coping mechanism.
I like the cut of you, Jib. Color me jealous, here. :smallbiggrin:

However, last time I read the throw-dog-story (I believe Cracked once ran an article on it), it actually wasn't a lack of proper medication, but an excess of... recreational alternatives that was apparently to blame for the incident. So y'all might still want to take it easy, there. :smalltongue:

[TheThan]

um... No.

Depression meds all have long blood level half lives because the ones with short half lives are simply too dangerous to take at all. varying the brain's blood chemistry serotonin or dopamine levels quickly is usually bad. If you have to stop or start taking one it is critical that you do it very very slowly. Different medications tend to have different cold turkey side effects that vary from person to person, but they are frequently awful. This guy apparently experienced a full on manic episode. That or he was trying to commit suicide by biker. Possibly both.

About 8 years ago I was put on zoloft, and then the psychopharmacologist lost his license (for over prescribing meds). I wound up going off cold turkey, and was ravingly paranoid for a month. The damage from that incident was actually far far worse than the actual original problem.

Anyone interested in going off or onto a neurological medication might do well to check out crazymeds.org. It's an anecdotal and research based forum that pays particular track of both documented and undocumented effects and side effects of such medications.

Bottom line: if you're on an anti-anxiety, anti-depressant, or mood stabilizer you MUST inform your doctor before you stop taking them and titrate down at AT LEAST according to the recommended guidelines. Frequently even slower.

These medications are amazing, very powerful and can change lives very much for the better, but with great power comes great responsibility.

Now I meant all that in jest.

but seriously now. I've never met a person in real life that has been put on depression meds and have had them positively affect their lives. All they have really done is give them a false sense of happiness without actually curing them. The very issues that were causing their depression still existed and still caused trouble in their lives. They were just "happy" about it now. in effect, the symptoms were being treated, but the cause was still there.

Instead of actually solving or reconciling the problem(s) that cropped up in their lives, they turned to drugs. Its no different from someone becoming an alcoholic because they can't cope with or won't face a situation.

Now I'm not saying anti-anxiety, anti-depressant, or mood stabilizer drugs don't help people, I'm sure they do. I've just never really seen them help people. It's because of this that I believe these mind altering drugs should become a last resort, when nothing else seems to help.

Granted I don't take any such medicine and feel that I have strong enough mental fortitude that I won't really ever need to. So I have no first hand experience, I am speaking from first hand observation of people I have known that were on such medicine. Now it's clear that you have had a different experience than my own, and have a different opinion, that's fine, people are free to express their opinions even if they conflict with others opinions.

[Grinner]

but seriously now. I've never met a person in real life that has been put on depression meds and have had them positively affect their lives. All they have really done is give them a false sense of happiness without actually curing them. The very issues that were causing their depression still existed and still caused trouble in their lives. They were just "happy" about it now. in effect, the symptoms were being treated, but the cause was still there.

Instead of actually solving or reconciling the problem(s) that cropped up in their lives, they turned to drugs. Its no different from someone becoming an alcoholic because they can't cope with or won't face a situation.

*snip*

You make some good points, points that have been made before. The problem is that actually dealing with your problems usually requires therapy, and therapy is expensive. Often, it's easier and cheaper, for both the psychiatrist and the patient, to give them a prescription than therapy.

Is it a pretty solution? Hell no. But it keeps our problems lidded just enough to get by.

[Fragenstein]

but seriously now. I've never met a person in real life that has been put on depression meds and have had them positively affect their lives. All they have really done is give them a false sense of happiness without actually curing them. The very issues that were causing their depression still existed and still caused trouble in their lives. They were just "happy" about it now. in effect, the symptoms were being treated, but the cause was still there.

Agree, in part. It's a bad idea to use chems to deal with situations that are, and should be, difficult to deal with by nature. Life sometimes bites you. Try to handle it by being strong.

HOWEVER... there are people who just walk in deep blackness for no reason whatsoever. Life is fine. Good things are happening. The sun shines daily... but depression still grinds them into a fine paste.

What are they worried about? Absolutely nothing, but that doesn't keep their stomach from knotting itself mercilessly. What do they have to be sad about? Absolutely nothing, but that doesn't keep them from breaking down for any reason they can actually pinpoint.

These people have real, debilitating chemical imbalances. Therapy and happy thoughts won't help something like that.

[Asta Kask]

but seriously now. I've never met a person in real life that has been put on depression meds and have had them positively affect their lives. All they have really done is give them a false sense of happiness without actually curing them. The very issues that were causing their depression still existed and still caused trouble in their lives. They were just "happy" about it now. in effect, the symptoms were being treated, but the cause was still there.

How do you know what the cause is?

[Temotei]

These people have real, debilitating chemical imbalances. Therapy and happy thoughts won't help something like that.

Not necessarily. Therapy can help in a lot of ways, such as psychoeducation, cognitive-behavioral changes, and the like. A general statement of what a person should be but isn't followed by saying therapy is useless because of this doesn't really make sense. That's what therapy is for; to help people with issues they're having, "reasonable" or not.

Also, I'm glad the puppy is being cared for. I was afraid for it. Hopefully the person gets help, too.

[Asta Kask]

I've never understood why the combined approach is off the table. I'm on extensive medication, but I've had lots of psychotherapy that has helped cope me with the symptoms that remain. And also, since a person tends to identify with his symptoms after a while, helped me understand who I am without them.

[The Glyphstone]

I like the cut of you, Jib. Color me jealous, here. :smallbiggrin:

However, last time I read the throw-dog-story (I believe Cracked once ran an article on it), it actually wasn't a lack of proper medication, but an excess of... recreational alternatives that was apparently to blame for the incident. So y'all might still want to take it easy, there. :smalltongue:

here it is:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18646_the-5-most-insane-improvised-weapons-that-were-animals_p2.html

No mention of recreational drugs, or any drugs at all. But still very Cracked.

[TheThan]

How do you know what the cause is?

For one, they never shut up about their personal problems. (i suspect that's a side effect of the medication) Everyone knows whats going on with them, even if it is something that ought to be very private. Because they tell it to everyone they meet.

Secondly, some of these people i've known (and been good friends with), so I know what goes on in their lives, and can clearly see who or what is causing them trouble.

I'm sure there are people who are in serious need of these medications, I'm not saying that they shouldn't take them. I'm saying people shouldn't take them unless its really necessary.

granted I have a strong and somewhat radical opinion on medications in general. But I think that's a topic that boarders on inappropriate for these forums.

[Asta Kask]

For one, they never shut up about their personal problems. (i suspect that's a side effect of the medication) Everyone knows whats going on with them, even if it is something that ought to be very private. Because they tell it to everyone they meet.

How do you know that they know what's wrong with them? Aren't people sometimes mistaken?


Secondly, some of these people i've known (and been good friends with), so I know what goes on in their lives, and can clearly see who or what is causing them trouble.

Oh, well. Who needs epidemiology then? Who needs lab tests? All we need to do is to ask a person's friends and find out what ails them. Of course, sometimes people disagree, even about their friends, but I'm sure something could be arranged. A voting procedure, perhaps.

People are sometimes wrong. Even about their friends. This includes you.


I'm sure there are people who are in serious need of these medications, I'm not saying that they shouldn't take them. I'm saying people shouldn't take them unless its really necessary.

I'm sorry, but this is a completely useless stance. When is it really necessary? Unless you have a way to tell us when that is, or a group of people you're ready to trust, this isn't telling us anything.


granted I have a strong and somewhat radical opinion on medications in general. But I think that's a topic that boarders on inappropriate for these forums.

You do. It seems to be one blessed with a remarkable lack of knowledge.

[Thajocoth]

TheThan, I agree with you on the general case, but it makes me a hypocrite.

My girl happens to take anti-depressants. She also takes anti-mania, anti-anxiety (anti-psychotic)...

She'd fall apart if she stopped, to the point of locking up & being unable to do anything. I think it may be possible for her to cease to need them someday, but her therapy is slow-going, and the pile of work we need to to catch up on is high. I believe the anxiety comes from the pile of work and the depression/mania comes from things in her past she needs to deal with.

So I'm simultaneously agreeing that mental meds are way over-prescribed while thinking it to be a good idea for my strongly bipolar gf to keep taking a handful of pills each night to balance her internal chemistry. It's a little conflicting.

[Worira]

Asta keep being a cool dude what posts things I want to post but better

[Asta Kask]

Sometimes changing who you are is the right thing to do. And sometimes, this can't be accomplished without the help of medication. Not necessarily medication to the exclusion of all other therapy (as I've said in another thread, exercise is beneficial for practically all forms of mental disorder). But yeah, medications can be necessary. And the psychiatrists are best at determining when it's necessary, and what kinds are necessary. That doesn't mean they're never wrong, or that they should be trusted implicitly. But it's an inextricable part of living in a society with division of labor that not everyone's opinion is equally valuable. Deal with it.

[Jib]

Half the time the things don't even make you feel happy. I was just Zombified for a few months before I talked to my Grandpa. The advice he gave me was this:

Everyone wants to feel like a man before they act like one, its acting like a man that makes you feel like one.

It applied well to my position so I tried it. It worked a lot better than all the counselors and meds in the world. He is a supportive old bastard in his own way. I actually lived with him for a while to help get my life straight.

[Grinner]

Half the time the things don't even make you feel happy. I was just Zombified for a few months before I talked to my Grandpa. The advice he gave me was this:

Everyone wants to feel like a man before they act like one, its acting like a man that makes you feel like one.

It applied well to my position so I tried it. It worked a lot better than all the counselors and meds in the world. He is a supportive old bastard in his own way. I actually lived with him for a while to help get my life straight.

Honest question. To you, what constitutes acting like a man?

[Jib]

Self Control, Self Support, Making ones self better, Being someone reliable. Those were the keys to my Manhood. It may be different for other people, but these were the traits I always wanted but took me longest to actually achieve.

Edit Addon: And Finding Ones Path in life, I wandered pretty aimlessly for a long time.

[Frozen_Feet]

Manic periods for the win. :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

Half the time the things don't even make you feel happy. I was just Zombified for a few months before I talked to my Grandpa. The advice he gave me was this:

Everyone wants to feel like a man before they act like one, its acting like a man that makes you feel like one.

It applied well to my position so I tried it. It worked a lot better than all the counselors and meds in the world. He is a supportive old bastard in his own way. I actually lived with him for a while to help get my life straight.

So... you tried it, it didn't work and from that you conclude that it only works half the time? Shoot, who needs clinical trials?

Well, your granddad's advice would presumably also only work half the time since only half the population is male. Also, post hoc ergo propter hoc. Most depressions heal after 6-12 months - but if you don't treat them, the risk of them returning and getting worse increases. It's entirely possible you would have gotten better if your grandpa had said nothing at all.

[TheThan]

If you believe taking drugs solves all of life’s problems, then that’s your opinion. But it’s not my opinion. It doesn’t look like I’m going to be able to change your mind.

Am I qualified to determine who really needs medication? NO. I’ll be the first to admit that, (that’s what doctors and other medical professionals are for). However I’ve seen people who had issues that medicine was clearly not curing, primarily because these issues were caused by outside forces (hypothetical example, an abusive parent/sibling/significant other). Taking drugs does not solve the fact they are being abused, it just makes them “happy” about it. The symptom is being treated but not the actual cause of the problem at hand. Can I be wrong? Yes, but you know what. In a lot of these situations, I truly doubt it.

What I am trying to say, is that I believe the people who are prescribing these drugs need to be much more careful when prescribing mood altering medications to people. I believe that therapy and other forms of non chemical medicine should be relied upon first, while drugs only used when nothing else seems to have any effect. They are over prescribing potentially dangerous chemicals and relying on a quick and easy fix for their patients.

Do I believe people should NEVER take medication, no I don’t believe that. I know that these drugs have turned people’s lives around. That’s great, good to hear, these people’s lives are better for it. But I’ve seen them do nothing good in the lives of others. That leaves me to conclude that these drugs are often times not helping when they are supposed to. So why take them if they’re not working?

[Asta Kask]

If you believe taking drugs solves all of life’s problems, then that’s your opinion. But it’s not my opinion. It doesn’t look like I’m going to be able to change your mind.

I don't believe that. It seems we mostly disagree on what degree problems can be solved by medication. I think we should leave it at that.

[TheThan]

I don't believe that. It seems we mostly disagree on what degree problems can be solved by medication. I think we should leave it at that.

I agree, and I'm happy to leave it at that too.

[pendell]

I offer the following two bits of anecdotal evidence for anyone's reading pleasure who's interested:

1) I know that I, personally, was over-medicated. When I was in elementary school medication was an easy out to get me to behave. Ritalin, Valium. I eventually learned to palm it under my tongue, then spit it out when no one was looking. After a few months it was discontinued becuse it seemed to "have no effect" heh. I went on to a successful life with no more than the usual angst, dread, worry and fear that is normal for life. Not that I don't have occasional bad moments or sad moments or scary moments, but I've never needed medication to deal with any of these things.

2) A friend of mine was NOT over-medicated. I cannot give details, but they evidently had something wrong the the seratonin in their brains, and the result was at least one suicide attempt. No amount of discipline, no amount of happy thoughts, no amount of support from friends makes up for the problem of a brain malfunction. Chemical treatment was necessary, given, and the person's life has been MUCH better because of it.

So based on my anecdotal observations from the obviously-statistically-significant sample of two :), I believe that there is a legitimate need for psychiatric meds in at least one case. I also believe that it can be overprescribed and used as a shortcut or a crutch when the problem can be better solved through building friendships, through counseling, or other forms of therapy. Unfortunately, all of the require work and time, so there's a major bias in our society to toss out a prescription as a Wonder Pill to make the problems go away. Everyone wants to believe in something for nothing, after all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[GnomeFighter]

IMO the problem with meds for psyciatric conditions is that they are sometimes treated as wonder drugs to cure all, like antibiotics. Sometimes they are, but most of the time they are not. They are more like painkillers.

If you brake your leg no amount of painkillers is going to make it better, infact on there own they may make it worse. However when you brake your leg you don't want to be told "no point in taking painkillers. They don't help".

Same with allot of psyciatric medicine. They don't normaly fix a problem, but they do mean that you are better placed to work on the problem. As a basic example without antidepressants therapy will often not work as it requires you to try and think differently and when someone is very depressed this can be difficult for them to even try as it seems a waste of time.

[Gnomes2169]

Listen to the gnome. The gnome knows all.

[Asta Kask]

Sometimes the problem can't be fixed. Sometimes symptom relief is the best we can hope for. It's horrible to have to face it, but that's the way it is.

Sometimes the alternative to medicine is this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates)

[Temotei]

Sometimes the alternative to medicine is this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates)

Yates was given improper treatment, in my opinion. Expressing suicidal intent, being prescribed anti-depressants, and then being discharged right after seems like an illogical progression of events. She was also labeled with diagnoses and not offered counseling, group therapy, or anything like that, by the looks of it. Her second psychiatrist assumed the reason for filling her bathtub was for suicidal reasons (a reasonable assumption, but assumptions shouldn't be made in a psychiatric profession).

This appears to be a case of improper care, overdose, and poor oversight rather than a case for medication.

[GnomeFighter]

Sometimes the problem can't be fixed. Sometimes symptom relief is the best we can hope for. It's horrible to have to face it, but that's the way it is.

Sometimes the alternative to medicine is this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates)

Well, yes, sometimes medication dosn't fix things. On the painkiller front medication also dosn't fix many cronic pain conditions. But still the same point stands, don't treat them like they are there to fix the problem, treat them as a way to treat the symptoms so it lets you work on the problem, even if that ends up just being a redution on the effect it has on your life.

[Asta Kask]

Yates was given improper treatment, in my opinion. Expressing suicidal intent, being prescribed anti-depressants, and then being discharged right after seems like an illogical progression of events. She was also labeled with diagnoses and not offered counseling, group therapy, or anything like that, by the looks of it. Her second psychiatrist assumed the reason for filling her bathtub was for suicidal reasons (a reasonable assumption, but assumptions shouldn't be made in a psychiatric profession).

This appears to be a case of improper care, overdose, and poor oversight rather than a case for medication.

The psychiatric profession cannot exist without assumptions. How often will a doctor have access to all the facts?

No, her best chances would have been if she was prescribed an antipsychotic because this wasn't an ordinary depression, it was a psychotic depression. It might not have saved the kids, but I can't think of anything else that might have (except taking the kids away from her).

[Mono Vertigo]

It's best, if you don't feel your meds are good for you, to talk about it with a specialist and possibly stop/change gradually, as opposed to stopping all at once.
(Else what is shown in the OP might happen. Or worse. See, I'm trying to rerail the whole thing.)
Doctors, like anyone else everywhere, can make mistakes, or turn out to be incompetent. That's a problem with the doctors and/or the system that put them in that position, not psychiatry.
And if your medication was not prescribed with your best interests in mind, then that's also a problem with whoever prescribed them, not the meds themselves.
That's all I'm gonna say on the subject.
Which has not only derailed, but is also drifting dangerously close to banned topics.

[Temotei]

The psychiatric profession cannot exist without assumptions. How often will a doctor have access to all the facts?

No, her best chances would have been if she was prescribed an antipsychotic because this wasn't an ordinary depression, it was a psychotic depression. It might not have saved the kids, but I can't think of anything else that might have (except taking the kids away from her).

The doctor could have asked. Maybe she was just going to take a bath and didn't have time or didn't want to after drawing the water. Maybe she did have self-harm intent. Assuming it was a repeated action from the past was a mistake. Maybe she'd have lied, but at least the assumption would have been backed up by something other than one doctor's thoughts.

In other words, one shouldn't just make assumptions. One should try one's best to get as much information as possible. Ask relatives, hold group therapy, private counseling, education, etc. Simply prescribing medicine and releasing the client isn't all one can do, and so isn't all one should do--especially when the client is a potential danger to himself/herself or others.


And if your medication was not prescribed with your best interests in mind, then that's also a problem with whoever prescribed them, not the meds themselves.

Agreed. Medication is good, but other measures should be taken beforehand or in addition to the medication.


Which has not only derailed, but is also drifting dangerously close to banned topics.

Perhaps you're right. I'll stop now in case of danger.

Good discussion, though. I enjoy this.