Crusader trouble? Need help keeping one under control

[ZethVorador]

So our group has recently received a crusader player. First time for our group and I think we may have an impending problem. We are level 4, he took a minoutar horn/hammer and basically Mountain Hammered everything the entire game. I am DM next game and was wondering if anyone had any DM tips for making sure he doesnt get out of hand? Also I am not quite sure how his temp hitpoints work? He seems to take very little damage every round regardless of actual dmage dealt. Acording to him (I havent had time to get to the tome.of battle) every one of his turns he was gaining temp hitpoints and refreshing them pretty constantly. Basically I think he is either doing it wrong or loopholling us and I just need to know what to expect etc.

[Morbis Meh]

Alright first point: Mountain Hammer

There is a little loophole that a lot of DM's miss if you're worried about a crusader literally smashing through walls of your encounter. It says at the top of the Stone Dragon school that in order to initiate a maneuver from the school you have to have your feet touching the ground. So you want them to be in a maze without the Crusader cleaving through the walls of it? Say that this particular maze causes you to hover 2 inches above the ground.

Second Point: Temp HP

Alright the Crusader is designed to be a beast, it has a delayed damage pool that allows it to soak up some damage every round (at level 4 he has a pool of 10). So in conjunction with the feat Stone power, this becomes a very useful low level survival tool because it grants temp HP based on a penalty to hit (Basically like power attack, for every -1 penalty you take to hit you gain 2 HP for that round only). So if he take 11 damage from a hit he will take 1 dmg immediately, then 10 in the next round. So he will use stone power next round take a -4 penalty to hit and gain 8 temp hp that will be soaked up by the damage stored in his pool leaving a total of 2 damage. So out of 11 damage done he only takes 3 and has methods to heal himself making it very hard to harm him.

[Big Fau]

You are level 4, this is expected. Come level 7 or so he will slow down.


At the early levels everything is made of paper. Crusaders (and martial adepts in general) bring this to the surface far more frequently than any other class.

[Krazzman]

Ok a few questions:
What are the other players characters?
What is he exactly (race/feats etc.)?
Does he use the Maneuvercards or does he roll on a list to see which maneuvers he gets each round?


To your questions:
Crusader get stances and maneuvers. The first stance he probably took is: Martial Spirit (?) this one heals himself or an ally if he hits an enemy. This means he gets 2 HP per hit.
Furthermore there is a Strike which let's him heal 1d6+1/(IL or 2IL).
IL meaning Initiator Level.
He "soaks" damage like a sponge through an ability. This means he delays his incoming damage and can heal himself via maneuvers/stances. He gets a Bonus on damage and hit (I believe) if he has a certain amount of damage stored.
To contain him there are a few possibilities. Send another Initiator against the party or a small group of fighters that focus on tripping enemies or some stuff like that. Hold Person could shut him down for the encounter too.
If he relys on maneuvers that only work against opponents of opposive alignment then use only the ones that are one step away from him. If he is NG send a few TN against him.

The necessity of this course of action depends on a few things:
Is the game still fun for everyone? If yes, don't do a thing.
Do you think he has a few things wrong? If yes ask him to explain this to you as so far everything seems plausible.
Are the other Melee's far weaker than his char?
Are the full casters weaker than his char?


Hope this helps. If anything is wrong please correct me as I am AFB.

[Andreaz]

As they said, his advantage will lose significance over the next couple levels.
And for mountain hammer...yeah, DR's not gonna cut it against him, not all the time...but it never really did (unless your group is used to thinking sword&shielders do a lot of damage, weapon specialization is good; things like that).

When it comes to stone dragon maneuvers (they are considered the weakest, only 3 or 4 shine -mountain hammer among them-), they only work if you're on the ground. Flying enemy? No sell. Falling and fighting? Tough luck. Don't go out of your way on that though...It's not really going to help.


The crusader's at his best with his allies, by the way. His maneuvers are tailored to buff the party, especially if there's many meleers.

[Flickerdart]

The important thing to remember is that he doesn't have at-will use of his abilities. They need to be refreshed, and it's random which ones he gets, so he can't just Mountain Hammer every single turn.

[Pandiano]

That sounds as if the player is reading the class features horribly wrong. He gets no temp hp from the crusader class. The damage he would take is stored in a pool that brings him boni, but is subtracted from his hp one roumd later anyway. He seems to confuse this delay with temp hp.

If you get to know the maneuvers he uses we'll gladly check his use of them.

[Andreaz]

The important thing to remember is that he doesn't have at-will use of his abilities. They need to be refreshed, and it's random which ones he gets, so he can't just Stone Power every single turn.He can Stone Power every single turn, it's a feat. Remember? Feels like power attack, gives temp hp instead of damage?

[Diarmuid]

Another thing to keep in mind is that he cant use his maneuvers every round. Crusaders have a random factor in which of their "readied manuevers" are "granted" at the beginning of every combat.

Unless he's using some other trick to recover his maneuvers faster (I dont know if one is even available to Crusaders) then he shouldnt be using Mountain Hammer every round.

Also, if he's using Stone Power to help offset the damage in his Damage Pool then his to hit modifier is taking that penalty and it should be much harder for him to hit things, especially considering Mountain Hammer doesnt carry any bonuses to hit.

[Metahuman1]

Something that needs to be understood, Martial adepts are powerful at this level. The spell casters haven't really gotten off the ground yet. And the other mundanes with a couple of exceptions such as the Factotum aren't gonna be as powerful. They start weaker and they there.

This is because the none casters that don't come form certain sub systems like ToB had some meaningful design flaws.

[the_david]

I think one of the problems is the greathorn minotaur hammer the crusader is using. The main problem is that he probably has the unerrata-ed version. (Just guessing)

The minotaur greathammer comes from MMIV, and does 1d12 damage with a crit of 19-20/x4 (Effectively, that would be equal to almost x8). Except it doesn't. In the stat block of the greathorn Minotaur, you'll find it has a crit range of 20, but still does quadruple damage on a crit. (Like the Goliath Greathammer, which is also a Exotic Weapon) That should make him a little bit easier to handle.

Also, make sure to use monsters that have DR against bludgeoning weapons.

[Flickerdart]

He can Stone Power every single turn, it's a feat. Remember? Feels like power attack, gives temp hp instead of damage?
Oh! Right. I was confusing it with Martial Spirit, I think.

[Gigas Breaker]

Oh! Right. I was confusing it with Martial Spirit, I think.

Martial Spirit is a stance and gains him two hp on each successful attack.

[Flickerdart]

Martial Strike?

At this point it's probably pretty clear that I don't know the Bo9S very well.

[Stouts]

Martial Strike?

At this point it's probably pretty clear that I don't know the Bo9S very well.

From context, you were probably talking about Mountain Hammer (strike, +2d6 dmg, ignores DR)

[Hiro Protagonest]

As Flickerdart is trying to point out, he can't just use any maneuver he readies, any time he wants. Crusader can potentially be able to use it twice in a row, though, with his automatic randomized recovery method.

Anyway, how it works with the HP is -

Steely Resolve. Your player might be getting confused on this. It isn't temp HP. It's delayed damage, and he takes it the next round.

Stone Power. This could be what he's using. At low levels, most classes (yes, even fighters) are made of paper. Crusaders aren't, and crusaders with Stone Power definitely aren't. -2 to your attacks (and at this level, he only gets one, and it's at full bonus) for 4 temp HP? Sure, especially considering that damage soaked with Steely Resolve activates another class feature giving you an attack bonus!

Martial Spirit. This is basically free healing until you get a better stance. Heal two HP per hit on an enemy. That's just over Fast Healing 1, but it only works in combat. I don't know if it works to mitigate the damage absorbed by Steely Resolve.

All in all, it's very likely that he's actually healing and temp-HPing more than he takes. This is good, because a lockdown crusader build actually succeeds at the role of "tank", since in D&D, just continually healing party members is inadequate to keep frontliners at full health (but don't worry, clerics aren't useless. Just look at that long list of cleric spells).

[Flickerdart]

Nah, I meant the one that heals you or an ally when you hit with it. I don't think spamming Mountain Hammer would be that bad - a Rogue is also adding 2d6 to his attacks at that level.

[GreenETC]

I think you're more having a problem with the power boost over basic classes that ToB has. If you're used to Barbarians and Rangers, ToB is going to be a significant step up. You currently have a guy using a d12 weapon, and regardless of the crit range, he's also probably got high STR, meaning he's doing tons of damage (which isn't actually more than a Barbarian of his level would put out) even without Mountain Hammer. He also has delayed damage and healing strikes and stances.


I'd say your best responses are:
Send in some light magic, hitting Touch AC or something like Grease.
Higher AC to stop Stone Power (making sure it's balanced enough to still be hit)
Multiple smaller enemies, so he's only one-shotting 1 out of 8 guys.
Some amount of traps or something that involves Reflex or Will.
Non-combat situations that need more than Diplomacy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Nah, I meant the one that heals you or an ally when you hit with it.
Um... there's Martial Spirit (stance), and I think there's one healing Strike that heals like, 1d6+lvl (max +5) or something.
I don't think spamming Mountain Hammer would be that bad - a Rogue is also adding 2d6 to his attacks at that level.

He seems more worried about the terrain destruction.

But really, D&D tries to do both high-powered and low-powered. Unfortunately, it doesn't make distinctions clear. ToB classes are for games where you have some measure of mythical power, but aren't broken/godlike. Along the level of prowess of a druid with a good fighting pet and some control and summon spells, or a blaster sorcerer who has some of the Orb spells and uses metamagic reduction as was likely intended. When you get to the peak of practical op, ToB has to dig for tricks to keep up, and most other non-casters are left in the dust. At low-op, where monks are good, sword-n-board fighters tank, and Fireball is the go-to spell when dealing with multiple foes, ToB classes are too powerful.

[Qc Storm]

Since you guys are talking about Crusaders, could you help my DM? In my game, we are level 7. I personally overview their character progression to make sure everybody is in line with the party's power.

However, the crusader just learned Divine Surge (+8d8 damage), and the DM is panicking a little. While I agree that it is quite powerful, the fact that it is a standard action doesn't make it much more powerful than a double power attack.

Do you guys have anything to say to make him feel better?

[Morbis Meh]

Do you guys have anything to say to make him feel better?

Be thankful that it isn't an uber charger XD On a more serious note look at the wizards iconic spell: firball (yes this isn't powerful I am using it to make a point about how divine surge isn't that bad) at level 7 a wizard is pumping out 7d6 damge, yes it is a couple of die short of what the crusader is doing BUT it deals it to a 20 ft radius thus hitting a lot more enemies on an AUTOHIT (yes they get a ref save for half but meh) while the crusader hits only one enemy and the hit still has to connect.

If this really bothers your DM just tell him to use more weaker enemies in the encounter problem solved.

[Andreaz]

Since you guys are talking about Crusaders, could you help my DM? In my game, we are level 7. I personally overview their character progression to make sure everybody is in line with the party's power.

However, the crusader just learned Divine Surge (+8d8 damage), and the DM is panicking a little. While I agree that it is quite powerful, the fact that it is a standard action doesn't make it much more powerful than a double power attack.

Do you guys have anything to say to make him feel better?
Mostly what Mr Morbis just said. +8d8 is good damage, but fairly trivial. Wizards have been doing +5d6 since level 5, and can do fairly more AoE.
And chargers...oh man, chargers. At about that level one should be able to very easily attack for weapon damage + 36 in a charge. With some stacking that can jump to the hundreds.

[Flickerdart]

Since you guys are talking about Crusaders, could you help my DM? In my game, we are level 7. I personally overview their character progression to make sure everybody is in line with the party's power.

However, the crusader just learned Divine Surge (+8d8 damage), and the DM is panicking a little. While I agree that it is quite powerful, the fact that it is a standard action doesn't make it much more powerful than a double power attack.

Do you guys have anything to say to make him feel better?
By level 7, a crusader knows enough maneuvers that using it reliably will be a problem. If there are a bunch of mooks, the crusader will either need to expend it while getting through to the main enemy and then hope that it comes back, or sit on it while he battles through the mooks and then hope that it doesn't miss when he uses it.
Compare +8d8 (average 36) with the +8d6 (average 28) that a 7th level Rogue gets every round off his two attacks. It just looks like a lot because the dice are big.

[GreenETC]

Do you guys have anything to say to make him feel better?

The unofficial errata, which is currently down right now, made a good argument that Divine Surge should do 6d8 instead of 8d8 because Greater Divine Surge (the higher level one) does 6d8 and lets you trade 1 point of Con damage to boost the damage by 2d8.

I personally stand by that being a decent fix to it, making it not be too utterly ridiculous.

[Qc Storm]

Mostly what Mr Morbis just said. +8d8 is good damage, but fairly trivial. Wizards have been doing +5d6 since level 5, and can do fairly more AoE.
And chargers...oh man, chargers. At about that level one should be able to very easily attack for weapon damage + 36 in a charge. With some stacking that can jump to the hundreds.

I know, I had one in the game I DMed. He died due to his terrible AC. I don't think anyone's gonna miss him.

[Andreaz]

I know, I had one in the game I DMed. He died due to his terrible AC. I don't think anyone's gonna miss him.Then you didn't fully realize that character :p
Not that it's a great idea to play anyway.
Just stay cool. Crusaders are tough, hit reasonably hard and make everyone near them fight better for it. All you could want from a warrior-leader archetype :D

[phlidwsn]

The unofficial errata, which is currently down right now, made a good argument that Divine Surge should do 6d8 instead of 8d8 because Greater Divine Surge (the higher level one) does 6d8 and lets you trade 1 point of Con damage to boost the damage by 2d8.

I personally stand by that being a decent fix to it, making it not be too utterly ridiculous.

I have a copy saved out on Google docs (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VTfDj5anetCrtn6PxROgiEmgvkrV591qE0PCOj8l8Ps/edit)if anyone in the thread wants to reference it.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, he can refresh his temp hit points every round, can heal himself via various means, and deal decent damage. He's a tank. It's what Crusaders do well. There are plenty of other things they don't do well - ranged damage, area of effect damage, crowd control, scouting, mobility, Skills, etc. So I don't really think it's a problem.