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View Full Version : Do you feel spell casters should have themes for themselves?



Agrippa
2013-01-14, 03:49 PM
How do you feel about themed spell casters as a concept? Or should they even be closely tied to a theme or set of themes in terms of spells to begin with?

Friv
2013-01-14, 04:08 PM
I think it depends too heavily on how your magic system works to really have an easy answer.

I do like the idea of areas of specialty in spellcasting, though.

Guizonde
2013-01-14, 04:09 PM
How do you feel about themed spell casters as a concept? Or should they even be closely tied to a theme or set of themes in terms of spells to begin with?

honestly, just thinking about omnipotent wizards doing everything better than everyone else makes me rage. sure, it's real cool to have a jack of all trades, but here's my problems with that:

-magic is inherently learnt. either "genetically" or through books (enchanters and wizards). each should have a specialty based on their personnality.
-why does wizard X know both necromancy and healing spells? two different schools means twice the necessary learning. a mage who knows everything should be a bazillion and a half years old.
-the mary sue factor.
-the cross-school blaster. imagine a heavy machine gun that can snipe better than a dedicated sniper rifle accepting pistol ammo, rifle ammo, shotgun ammo, and rockets. illogical? my same beef with munchkin wizards.


if you give me a white mage who's the best goddamn healer ever seen, i'll jump with joy. same deal with an illusionist who's got no punch (but very crafty illusions). just as a summoner shouldn't be able to cast a fireball, a machine-gun type shouldn't be able to spam summoned creatures. it's illogical.
(give me a white mage anyday:smallbiggrin: go healing!)

this is my gripe with casters in general, their lack of themes. i find a fire mage specialist way scarier than a mary sue. why, you ask? the caster's spent a major part of his life learning how to kill everything with fire. if he's ingenious, he might even be able to heal using fire!

druids bug me to a lesser extent. i'd much prefer seeing a druid specializing in bestial forms that couldn't cast summonings or blasts when in animal form (buffs to self i don't mind) for example.

heck. seeing all those different casters do everything is annoying. look at martial classes. they're specialists! each class is different.

[/rant]

tl;dr: with more powers come greater diluting of a caster's uniqueness

saxavarius
2013-01-14, 06:46 PM
When I play a full caster I always go with some kinda theme; while all know some buffs and maybe a couple of useful healing spells I always try to find ways to tie the spells I use into the concept I've made.

Side note:DEATH TO MARY SUE CHARACTERS (long story)

Slipperychicken
2013-01-14, 11:26 PM
It sounds like a fine thing to me. Of course, it depends on what you hope to accomplish with your magic system.

awa
2013-01-14, 11:38 PM
in general i prefer themed casters. but the generic casters can also work particularly if you play up each spell being a discrete thing. so a fire ball is not just a ball of fire but a single specific formula of words, gestures and dung with no bearing on the specific gestures and words used to create a burning hands.
And every one who uses that spells casts it in the same way becuase that is the only way to caste that spell. now i got that feeling more from earlier editions becuase meta-magic dilutes it. (note this works a lot better with a fairly small number of spells which also reduces the overpowered nature of wizards by giving them less options and making them easier to predict.)

LordBlades
2013-01-14, 11:49 PM
Personally, at a concept level I wholeheartedly agree with themed casters (I think a wizard should either be very strong in one field or moderately strong in more), but they just don't function well at all (balance-wise) in some systems.

Take D&D 3.5, a caster whose theme is blowing stuff up for example is infinitely weaker than a caster whose theme is manipulating the battlefield or summoning allies to fight for him.

ArcturusV
2013-01-14, 11:52 PM
I don't mind Generic. As long as they fit the quote that they are supposed to be based off of.

It's "Jack of all trades, but master of none" after all.

Long as they stick to that I have no problem with a wizard who has about 200 tricks up his sleeve... but they're just that, tricks. And I enjoy watching battles play out where it's a true specialist/master of a field trying to use his expertise against a character who can't match the raw power but has more versatility.

vartan
2013-01-15, 02:09 PM
Having just purchased Arcana Evolved, I'll say that two things I really like about that magic system are the concepts of simple/complex/exotic spells and the magic templates you can acquire through your race or certain feats. That really encourages more than just a genericaster- esp considering that each exotic spell requires a feat or effect before it becomes available to each individual (and even Magisters don't get whatever they want).

obryn
2013-01-15, 03:23 PM
Having just purchased Arcana Evolved, I'll say that two things I really like about that magic system are the concepts of simple/complex/exotic spells and the magic templates you can acquire through your race or certain feats. That really encourages more than just a genericaster- esp considering that each exotic spell requires a feat or effect before it becomes available to each individual (and even Magisters don't get whatever they want).
Ummm... watch out for the template feats. Those give much broader access to the "rare" exotic spells.

Also, from experience with the system (played it from 1st to ... 12th? 13th?), it breaks down right around when 3e does, as far as the caster/non-caster power gap goes. While some spells were toned down in theory, four facts counteract this.

(1) They can be spammed pretty easily, especially with trading spell slots between levels.
(2) There's no real save-or-dies, but still plenty of save-or-sucks
(3) Numerous ways to make your spells harder to resist, even moreso than in base 3.5; the Runic Template is especially heinous in this regard.
(4) Templates which apply nasty status effects for essentially no additional cost; acid and lightning are the worst offenders, iirc.

And the poor partial-casters? They're pretty hosed through-and-through because those Simple spells are often not even worth the class feature. So it keeps full-casters like Magisters and Greenbonds awesome, but hoses mageblades and witches pretty badly.

So yes, to an extent you get themed casters - but really it's "I'm still awesome at everything but super-duper-awesome at a few others." :smallwink:

-O

Wyntonian
2013-01-15, 05:21 PM
Short answer? Yes.

I've considered making lists for a homebrewed caster class based off the color wheel from Magic. I know next to nothing about it, but I like the idea of "You're a good White caster, so you can fake it with these two allied colors (Blue and something else, I think), but you don't know how to use the opposed ones".

Another thing I've been considering is spheres. I think 2ed did something like this, in which you choose from a menu of areas of expertise and get spells accordingly. So, if I wanted a nature-themed caster like a druid, I'd pick Plants, Animals and Storms. If I wanted an artificer, I'd choose Building Things, Metal and Electricity or something. That way your character can be as diverse as you'd like, but still keep a narrow-ish focus and remain thematic.

nedz
2013-01-15, 06:08 PM
Yes, the generic "I can cast anything" caster lacks flavour though not power, obviously.

Kane0
2013-01-15, 09:36 PM
Themes or specialties or talents, all the same to me.

So long as you are better at one or two things and not so great at the rest. You can be a jack of all trades, but you cant know all and be all.

Agrippa
2013-01-16, 10:39 PM
Now one argument against the idea of themed mages is that you'll never know what spells your character might find in the future. If you don't find spells from your chosen fields then those chosen fields were wastes. I posted this idea on another game site but only got one reply, which basically said it was a bad idea. It's incomplete but here it is.

I've read through both AD&D and 3.5 and I really like the idea of spell schools and the like. With that said, I wasn't all that happy with the fact that magic-users/wizards have the potential to learn every single spell on the list. It's not that I'm opposed to wizards knowing a lot of spells. I'm just opposed to them being able to learn all of them. With that idea in mind I'm proposing a new, slightly, limited, nine school system. There are seven elemental themed schools (air, earth, fire, water, wood, light and dark) and one non-elemental school (Passageway), with summoning and teleportation, in addition to General wizardry, spells open to all magic-users. Under these rules all magic-users/wizards begin with the ability to learn and cast spells from General plus two other schools. At th 6th and 12th level the magic-user may learn one new main school.

Main Schools

Air - Spells that deal with sound and force of wind. Favored by gnomes
Spells 1st - Alarm, Feather Fall, Floating Disc, Ghost Sound, Message, Unseen Servant and Ventriloquism.

Dark - Magics of fear, sorrow and the absence of visible light.
Spells 1st - Cause Fear and Darkness.

Earth - Spells to fortify, strengthen, protect and unleash wrath and fury in the form of the land it's self.
Spells 1st - Endure Elements, Mage Armor, Protection From Evil and Resistance.

Fire - Burn baby, burn!
Spells 1st - Burning Hands

General - General purpose wizardry. All magic-users have access to this school.
Spells 1st - Cantrip, Comprehend Languages, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Detect Secret Doors, Erase, Identify, Magic Missile (based on one other school) and Read Magic

Passageway - Portals, gateways to other worlds and summoning.
Spells 1st - Mount and Summon Monster I.

Light - Mastery of light and the color spectrum. Favored by gnomes.
Spells 1st - Color Spray, Dancing Lights, Disguise Self, Light and Silent Image.

Water - Magic of ebb and flow, including life and water its self. Favored by elves.
Spells 1st - Acid Splash, Create Water, Grease and Purify Food and Drink.

Wood - The power of life and growth. Favored by elves.
Spells 1st - Animate Rope, Enlarge/Reduce Person, Entangle and Jump.

Hybrid Schools

So-called hybrid schools aren't really seperate schools of magic. They're really just outgrowths of two other schools. As such hybrid schools do not count as schools for the purpose of the maximum number of schools a magic-user can cast from.

Ash (Fire and Wood) - The power restore life from the ashes and destroy the dead that walk.
Spells 1st - Disrupt Undead

Lightning (Fire and Light) - Mastery over heavenly fire.
Spells 1st - Shocking Grasp

Vitality (Water and Wood) - The power to give life, or take it from others.
Spells 1st - Chill Touch, Cure Light Wounds/Inflict Light Wounds, Touch of Fatigue and Ray of Enfeeblement.

The original thread is found here (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2122&p=39203#p39203).

Guizonde
2013-01-16, 10:55 PM
Now one argument against the idea of themed mages is that you'll never know what spells your character might find in the future. If you don't find spells from your chosen fields then those chosen fields were wastes. I posted this idea on another game site but only got one reply, which basically said it was a bad idea. It's incomplete but here it is.

I've read through both AD&D and 3.5 and I really like the idea of spell schools and the like. With that said, I wasn't all that happy with the fact that magic-users/wizards have the potential to learn every single spell on the list. It's not that I'm opposed to wizards knowing a lot of spells. I'm just opposed to them being able to learn all of them. With that idea in mind I'm proposing a new, slightly, limited, nine school system. There are seven elemental themed schools (air, earth, fire, water, wood, light and dark) and one non-elemental school (Passageway), with summoning and teleportation, in addition to General wizardry, spells open to all magic-users. Under these rules all magic-users/wizards begin with the ability to learn and cast spells from General plus two other schools. At th 6th and 12th level the magic-user may learn one new main school.

Main Schools

Air - Spells that deal with sound and force of wind. Favored by gnomes
Spells 1st - Alarm, Feather Fall, Floating Disc, Ghost Sound, Message, Unseen Servant and Ventriloquism.

Dark - Magics of fear, sorrow and the absence of visible light.
Spells 1st - Cause Fear and Darkness.

Earth - Spells to fortify, strengthen, protect and unleash wrath and fury in the form of the land it's self.
Spells 1st - Endure Elements, Mage Armor, Protection From Evil and Resistance.

Fire - Burn baby, burn!
Spells 1st - Burning Hands

General - General purpose wizardry. All magic-users have access to this school.
Spells 1st - Cantrip, Comprehend Languages, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Detect Secret Doors, Erase, Identify, Magic Missile (based on one other school) and Read Magic

Passageway - Portals, gateways to other worlds and summoning.
Spells 1st - Mount and Summon Monster I.

Light - Mastery of light and the color spectrum. Favored by gnomes.
Spells 1st - Color Spray, Dancing Lights, Disguise Self, Light and Silent Image.

Water - Magic of ebb and flow, including life and water its self. Favored by elves.
Spells 1st - Acid Splash, Create Water, Grease and Purify Food and Drink.

Wood - The power of life and growth. Favored by elves.
Spells 1st - Animate Rope, Enlarge/Reduce Person, Entangle and Jump.

Hybrid Schools

So-called hybrid schools aren't really seperate schools of magic. They're really just outgrowths of two other schools. As such hybrid schools do not count as schools for the purpose of the maximum number of schools a magic-user can cast from.

Ash (Fire and Wood) - The power restore life from the ashes and destroy the dead that walk.
Spells 1st - Disrupt Undead

Lightning (Fire and Light) - Mastery over heavenly fire.
Spells 1st - Shocking Grasp

Vitality (Water and Wood) - The power to give life, or take it from others.
Spells 1st - Chill Touch, Cure Light Wounds/Inflict Light Wounds, Touch of Fatigue and Ray of Enfeeblement.

The original thread is found here (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2122&p=39203#p39203).

that kinda works like domain spells for clerics in PF, you choose two along to focus in, and you get a spell slot dedicated to them. very helpful, although it still bugs me that playing a cleric you get access to everything (but choosing domains of fire and healing did help out my party tremendously, both harm undead)

The LOBster
2013-01-17, 05:22 AM
The "I can cast ANYTHING" is pretty much the reason Wizards and Sorcerers are my least favorite core classes in 3.5. At least Clerics and Druids have nifty Divine and Nature themes :P

caden_varn
2013-01-17, 07:07 AM
Now one argument against the idea of themed mages is that you'll never know what spells your character might find in the future. If you don't find spells from your chosen fields then those chosen fields were wastes.

Well, I'd say the spells your character finds in future is really down to the DM, so I would hope they would give you enough spells from your chosen schools to keep up. It's no different to finding all the scrolls you find are cleric-only or bard-only etc.

I don't really have enough knowledge of Wizards to comment on the specific school structure you have suggested here. I do prefer to have spellcasters forced to specialise to some degree - as well as (hopefully) restricting the power level a bit, it also makes for more flavourful wizard/sorceror schools/traditions in the game world in my experience.

Arcane_Snowman
2013-01-17, 02:23 PM
Not necessarily themes, but some way of making the breadth of option relatively less so.