How to run

[mattie_p]

So, I'm looking at the rules on running, and real life marathon runners, and can't make them add up.

SRD Quotes spoilered:

You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

A run represents a speed of about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human.

Run [General]
Benefit
When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Jump skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Jump check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC.

An unencumbered human can run 12 miles an hour, or 15 miles an hour with the run feat, but only for about 3 minutes at a time with con 18. How do I make a marathon runner, who can run for 12 miles an hour for at least 2 hours consecutive?

No, I don't want to make a jumplomancer who can run 26.2 miles in a round, I just want an endurance runner.

Currently the world record for marathons is 2:03:38 for 26.2 miles. Or if you look at ultramarathon dude, Dean Karnazes, who can run for "350 miles (560 km) in 80 hours and 44 minutes without stopping (2005)" (Wikipedia). Or, if you prefer, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, hunting orcs in Rohan.

How to I make an endurance runner? I definitely prefer non-magical, non-supernatural means for this.

[XmonkTad]

Easiest way would be something without con (construct /undead).
Other than that, it looks like what you really need is someone who can survive a forced march.

[LTwerewolf]

The average a runner runs in a marathon is nowhere near 12 mph, it's closer to half that, because they're not running full speed the entire way. Endurance running is about pacing yourself, no going all-out from the start.

[Lapak]

The average a runner runs in a marathon is nowhere near 12 mph, it's closer to half that, because they're not running full speed the entire way. Endurance running is about pacing yourself, no going all-out from the start.Look again at the (accurate) times the OP quotes for modern marathoners. They travel 26 miles in 2 hours; that's an average speed of 13 mph.

EDIT: Admittedly, we're talking top-of-their-sport level athletes here, and also reflecting modern training / health / nutrition. It would be interesting to look up marathon times over the decades to see how they've improved and see what a more reasonable 'pre-modern human' speed at a distance over level ground might be.

EDIT 2: World record back in 1908 was 2 hours 55 minutes, which means about 8-9 mph. On the other hand, in D&D we're looking at superhumanly strong/fast/tough folks, so maybe it should balance out more towards the 'modern' numbers.

[LTwerewolf]

The average marathon is run in about 4.5 hours. The record time for the boston marathon was 2 hours 7 minutes and 14 seconds. That's by far from the norm.

If you're looking for someone that simply runs faster, just find a way to get an increased speed via fast movement (barbarian/monk) with a high con.

[Edge of Dreams]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#endurance - gives +4 on Con checks to keep running (among other bonuses).

With that, the Run Feat, 18 con score, and taking 10 on con checks (for a roll of 18), a character can Run at 15 MPH for 27 rounds at minimum. So, about 3 minutes is right. Then, they must move no faster than a walk (3 MPH) for 1 minute. Thus, over 4 minutes, the character has moved at an average rate of (3 * 15 + 3) / 4 = 12 MPH. He then repeats this, alternating between 3 minutes of running and 1 minute of walking. For the sake of abstraction, you can assume he's actually just jogging at 12 MPH for the whole race. A character can theoretically do this all day.

You could also consider this a more difficult form of Hustle (look up Hustle here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm), which inflicts 1 point of non-lethal damage in the second hour, which is no problem for a marathon runner. Even with that non-lethal damage doubling each hour, an 18 con character who is above level one can handle several such hours with no problems before they faint. However, this does trigger the Fatigued condition, so that might be a problem.

On top of all that, if you take a feat like Fleet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fleet---final - Pathfinder, but I'm sure there's a 3.5 equivalent somewhere) a couple of times, your base movement speed increases enough to make world-record marathon times easily within reach.

A world-record holding marathon runner is probably around level 3 to 6, so they could have 3 or 4 feats (being human) - Endurance, Run, and Fleet x2.

[Lapak]

The average marathon is run in about 4.5 hours. The record time for the boston marathon was 2 hours 7 minutes and 14 seconds. That's by far from the norm.

If you're looking for someone that simply runs faster, just find a way to get an increased speed via fast movement (barbarian/monk) with a high con.I think the point that mattie_p is trying to make is that you cannot build an endurance athlete using the rules. (Which is no shock; it's not one of the things that D&D is designed around.) D&D characters are supposed to be able to reach top-of-their-game status, not just be average (or far below average) at things, and there is no way I can think of to build a human who can run for 2 hours non stop at anything approaching a cruising speed.

Like I said, it's not a crucial design flaw that you can't build such a character, but it's not wrong to call it a gap in the rules.

EDIT: And while we're discussing if it's reasonable to try, along comes an answer. :smallredface:

[BowStreetRunner]

An 11th level human scout (50 ft speed) using the Hustle movement mode from Overland movement rules (10 miles per hour) can move 20 miles in 2 hours, but after the second hour takes 1 point of nonlethal damage and becomes fatigued. It will take him 36 minutes to complete the final 6 miles of the marathon, for a total time of 2 hours, 36 minutes.

Note that if he continued to run the full third hour he would have travelled a total of 30 miles, would take 2 more points of nonlethal damage and would now be exhausted. After that, he could only hustle at a rate of 5 miles an hour and would take increasing nonlethal damage (doubling each hour) until he collapsed from the damage.

[Quirp]

As far as I remember the Dark Sun elf variant is able to run for really long times.

[mattie_p]

An 11th level human scout (50 ft speed) using the Hustle movement mode from Overland movement rules (10 miles per hour) can move 20 miles in 2 hours, but after the second hour takes 1 point of nonlethal damage and becomes fatigued. It will take him 36 minutes to complete the final 6 miles of the marathon, for a total time of 2 hours, 36 minutes.

Note that if he continued to run the full third hour he would have travelled a total of 30 miles, would take 2 more points of nonlethal damage and would now be exhausted. After that, he could only hustle at a rate of 5 miles an hour and would take increasing nonlethal damage (doubling each hour) until he collapsed from the damage.

Not bad. Add the quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) and I think we're there - at least for marathons.

Now, the general consensus on the boards is that the real world is best emulated in E6. Can we run a marathon in E6? Flaws allowed if necessary to get the feats needed.

[lunar2]

human monk 3/barbar 1

speed 50 at level 4 (top of their game mundanes, not quite once in a lifetime superman).

feats (3 without flaws): endurance, run, dash (CWar.)

your speed increases to 55ft from dash.

55 ft/round = 550 ft/minute = 33,000 ft/hour = 6.25 mph at a walk.

13.5 mph at a hustle = 27 miles in 2 hours even. congratulations, you've just beaten the world marathon record.

@exhaustion for hustling. nope. you become fatigued if you take any nonlethal damage from hustling, you do not become exhausted for taking more nonlethal damage.

[nedz]

IRL Humans are exceptional at long distance running. The rules allow any creature to do this.

Also marathon runners carry the absolute minimum of kit.

The rules do not cover either of these facts.

Most of the character examples quoted can do the above wearing armour, carrying weapons and a light pack — depending upon strength.

How long did it take Pheidippides to run the original distance?
He was more than a little exhausted afterwards I seem to recall.

[mattie_p]

@lunar2: So a human has to have an alignment change to/from lawful in order to be a good runner? Makes no sense, but if that's the RAW, then that's the RAW. I'd rather go Scout3/Barb1, though, to avoid alignment shenanigans (thanks, BowStreetRunner).

Regarding exhaustion:

Hustle
A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.

Fatigued
A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

So it appears that hustling for more than one hour does, in fact, cause exhaustion. Or am I reading the underlined incorrectly?

speaking of non-lawful, are there any, ahem, alchemical substances that offer a bonus to speed?

@nedz, Pheidippides was clearly had a suboptimal build for running. We can do better.

So, anyone want to help me tackle Dean Karnazes?

[limejuicepowder]

IRL Humans are exceptional at long distance running. The rules allow any creature to do this.

Humans are exceptional at running long distances because of our unique body type: upright. No other animal IRL can do this. However, in DnD there are many bipedal creatures, any of which could be just as good at distance running as humans.

Note also that humans, despite their locomotion advantages, still don't have the marathon record: horses bred for it can run it in about 80 minutes, if memory serves.



How long did it take Pheidippides to run the original distance? He was more than a little exhausted afterwards I seem to recall.

He also wasn't a trained marathoner (he was probably level 1 or 2, forced march to finish, dies from exhaustion). The average character isn't either, so it makes sense that they couldn't. We're just seeing if the rules allow for a dedicated character to do it.

[Edge of Dreams]

Notice that Mr. "Ultra Marathon" there is only going about 4 or 5 MPH. That's walking speed for someone with a boosted base move speed. Again, the Endurance feat will help, but what you really need is a source of healing or immunity to non-lethal damage. Any form of Fast Healing or unlimited uses-per-day healing spell/item would do the trick, as you only need to deal with 1d6 of non-lethal each hour. Hell, you could have people passing you Cure Light Wounds potions at water stations, if you like.

[mattie_p]

Notice that Mr. "Ultra Marathon" there is only going about 4 or 5 MPH. That's walking speed for someone with a boosted base move speed. Again, the Endurance feat will help, but what you really need is a source of healing or immunity to non-lethal damage. Any form of Fast Healing or unlimited uses-per-day healing spell/item would do the trick, as you only need to deal with 1d6 of non-lethal each hour. Hell, you could have people passing you Cure Light Wounds potions at water stations, if you like.

We could do the fast healing, etc, but I'm interested to see if it is possible without magical augmentation. Yes, Fast healing is Ex, but let's do it without that. Forced marching rules will put someone under pretty quickly - so can we go for 80 hours straight?

[Edge of Dreams]

We could do the fast healing, etc, but I'm interested to see if it is possible without magical augmentation. Yes, Fast healing is Ex, but let's do it without that. Forced marching rules will put someone under pretty quickly - so can we go for 80 hours straight?

Instead of healing, you could look for ways to gain more hit points, damage reduction, and immunity to fatigue. Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) can be immune to fatigue as early as level 6.

That just leaves the non-lethal damage of 1d6 per hour after the first 10 or so (boosting con checks could improve this a bit). So, 70d6 or about 245 damage on average.

But! According to http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage...



Healing Nonlethal Damage

You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level.


If you're already level 6, you're healing 6 points of non-lethal damage each hour, so the damage never gets a chance to accumulate!

[Flickerdart]

@lunar2: So a human has to have an alignment change to/from lawful in order to be a good runner? Makes no sense, but if that's the RAW, then that's the RAW. I'd rather go Scout3/Barb1, though, to avoid alignment shenanigans (thanks, BowStreetRunner).
A skilled but unruly athlete hunkers down, gets some discipline, and wins the big event? Sounds like every single sports movie ever to me.

13 miles an hour shouldn't be that hard. If every 5 feet of base move rate adds 1 mile an hour when you hustle, then we just need 65 feet per round base speed. Base speed 30 for a human, +10 for 1st level barbarian, +10 more with the Quick trait. Speed of Thought (XPH) gets us +10 more, and Dash (SnS) gets us the final 5 feet. The saving throw to avoid becoming fatigued doesn't matter, because all fatigue does is stop you from running, which a hustle isn't.

And there you have it. 1st level marathon champion.

[Sacrieur]

The pathfinder equivalent feat is called fleet-of-foot and is homebrew.

In 3.5 you can start with the Barbarian to get fleet of foot.

That will give you 40 ft. Go ahead and dump the rest in scout to get higher movement speeds. There's also an epic feat Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpeed) that increases your base speed by 30 ft. That should give you a movement of 90 ft. in total.

[Phelix-Mu]

Humans are exceptional at running long distances because of our unique body type: upright. No other animal IRL can do this. However, in DnD there are many bipedal creatures, any of which could be just as good at distance running as humans.

Note also that humans, despite their locomotion advantages, still don't have the marathon record: horses bred for it can run it in about 80 minutes, if memory serves.




He also wasn't a trained marathoner (he was probably level 1 or 2, forced march to finish, dies from exhaustion). The average character isn't either, so it makes sense that they couldn't. We're just seeing if the rules allow for a dedicated character to do it.
I believe that Phedipedes was a messenger. He would have been wearing sandals and was running from a coastal area to Athens, on a gravel road (at best), granted, but across Greek terrain, which is the opposite of flat. Terrain is key in marathon running, as the sport pushes the average, trained marathon runner to push close to physical limits. While I'm sure he was far from today's top-of-the-sport athletes, he was no slouch.

Humans are not exceptionally designed for running, unless you mean in comparison with other primates. Bipedal locomotion is not at all ideal for running, either short or long distances. This seems clear because it would be more common evolutionarily if it were an actual advantage and because humans would not have, at every opportunity throughout history, bred or trained quadrupeds to serve as a primary means of traveling.

That said, I agree with the comment about healing. Items that can make one immune to fatigue, I believe there is a suit of armour or something in Complete Adventurer (something something of the unending hunt?) can be key, as can fast healing.

Monks of higher level can move absurdly fast in tactical terms, but can run into the same problems with fatigue and such from overland movement and forced marches. Still, if you crank up a 20th level monk with run (450 ft/6 seconds, over 70 feet a second), the numbers are gonna be pretty silly.

[mattie_p]

Trying to see if I can avoid anything not available to modern day humans, but thanks for the reminder on Speed of Thought.

[Flickerdart]

Any athlete will tell you that the right state of mind is key to victory. Why is Speed of Thought not legitimate?

[mattie_p]

Any athlete will tell you that the right state of mind is key to victory. Why is Speed of Thought not legitimate?

Oh, for game purposes it is totally legit. For the purposes of this thread I'd like to explore non-magical/psionic/supernatural means. Otherwise I'd just find the jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious)and win.

[nedz]

@nedz, Pheidippides was clearly had a suboptimal build for running. We can do better.


He also wasn't a trained marathoner (he was probably level 1 or 2, forced march to finish, dies from exhaustion). The average character isn't either, so it makes sense that they couldn't. We're just seeing if the rules allow for a dedicated character to do it.

Relevant section is Bolded.


Before they left the city, the Athenian generals sent off a message to Sparta. The messenger was an Athenian named Pheidippides, a professional long-distance runner. According to the account he gave the Athenians on his return, Pheidippides met the god Pan on Mount Parthenium, above Tegea. Pan, he said, called him by name and told him to ask the Athenians why they paid him no attention, in spite of his friendliness towards them and the fact that he had often been useful to them in the past, and would be so again in the future. The Athenians believed Pheidippides's story, and when their affairs were once more in a prosperous state, they built a shrine to Pan under the Acropolis, and from the time his message was received they held an annual ceremony, with a torch-race and sacrifices, to court his protection.

On the occasion of which I speak - when Pheidippides, that is, was sent on his mission by the Athenian commanders and said that he saw Pan - he reached Sparta the day after he left Athens and delivered his message to the Spartan government. "Men of Sparta" (the message ran), "the Athenians ask you to help them, and not to stand by while the most ancient city of Greece is crushed and subdued by a foreign invader; for even now Eretria has been enslaved, and Greece is the weaker by the loss of one fine city." The Spartans, though moved by the appeal, and willing to send help to Athens, were unable to send it promptly because they did not wish to break their law. It was the ninth day of the month, and they said they could not take the field until the moon was full. So they waited for the full moon, and meanwhile Hippias, the son of Pisistratus, guided the Persians to Marathon.

[Sacrieur]

Indeed, the ancient Greeks were pretty phenomenal distance runners. It was how they got around.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, for game purposes it is totally legit. For the purposes of this thread I'd like to explore non-magical/psionic/supernatural means. Otherwise I'd just find the jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious)and win.
Jumplomancer isn't level 1, and also a horrible example of just about anything.

[mattie_p]

Jumplomancer isn't level 1, and also a horrible example of just about anything.

Yes, I know. Upthread we had a world record marathon runner at level 4, using only Ex abilities. I'm open to possibilities on how to improve on that, or get to ultramarathon levels of endurance.

[BowStreetRunner]

Can we run a marathon in E6? Flaws allowed if necessary to get the feats needed.

These should help:


Barbarian 1 (PH)
Monk 3 & 6 (PH)
Underdark Knight ACF for Paladin 5 (CC)
Ranger Without Spellcasting ACF for Ranger 6 (CW)
Scout 3 (CA)
Dash feat (CW)
Celerity domain (CD)
Wildrunner 1, (RW)
Reachrunner 1 (RE)
Cheetah's Speed wild feat (CD)
Shifter w/Longstride trait, (ECS)
Longstride Elite feat, (ECS)
Speed of Thought, feat, (XPH)
Marshall 2, (MH)
Incarnate 3 (MI)
Duskling substitution level for Barbarian 1 (MI)
Dread Carapace soulmeld (MI)
Incarnate Avatar soulmeld (MI)
Lamia Belt soulmeld (MI)
Worg Pelt soulmeld (MI)
Cerulean Sandals soulmeld (MI)
Shadow Creature template (LM)
Fast Leg Fiendish Graft (FF)
Quick character trait (UA)
Fleet of Foot regional feat (PGF)
Nimble Bones feat (LM)
Swiftness of Orien feat (PGF)
Freedom Mantle (CP)
Berserk 1 (DD)
Absolute Steel stance (TB)
Dark Creature template (TM)
Fist of the Forest 1 (CC)
Forest Reeve 1 (CC)
Mythic Examplar 2 Orsos (CC)
Sanctified One of Kord 1 (CC)
Jaunter 2 (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits)

[Sacrieur]

Human (unchangeable): 30 ft. racial
Monk 18: 60 ft. enhancement
Barbarian 1: 10 ft. bonus to racial speed
Underdark Knight ACF Paladin 5: 10 ft. untyped
Ranger 6: 10 ft. untyped
Scout 11: 20 ft. untyped

I'm not sure a lot of these stack, most of them are just fast movement. I suppose you could munchkin around them since they're untyped. Are we doing RAW or RAI?

[nedz]

The Scouts bonus is enhancement, as is Longstrider (which is what I presume you mean by Ranger 6).

It seems that the Monk is winning this race — Yeah !

[mattie_p]

So clearly Dean Karnazes is a horizon walker with desert terrain mastery (immune to fatigue). I guess that is how he runs for 80 hours straight.

[Alefiend]

The problem with using barbarian, monk, fleet of foot, and similar tricks is that it makes our marathoners into world-class sprinters as well. Most marathoners are rubbish over short distances—I could regularly outrun my marathoner ex-girlfriend in dashes and such, and not only is she much taller than I am, but I am seriously overweight and have hip and knee problems.

I have no problem with it for purposes of this thread, but it seems our model will never be perfect.

[limejuicepowder]

I believe that Phedipedes was a messenger. He would have been wearing sandals and was running from a coastal area to Athens, on a gravel road (at best), granted, but across Greek terrain, which is the opposite of flat. Terrain is key in marathon running, as the sport pushes the average, trained marathon runner to push close to physical limits. While I'm sure he was far from today's top-of-the-sport athletes, he was no slouch.

Humans are not exceptionally designed for running, unless you mean in comparison with other primates. Bipedal locomotion is not at all ideal for running, either short or long distances. This seems clear because it would be more common evolutionarily if it were an actual advantage and because humans would not have, at every opportunity throughout history, bred or trained quadrupeds to serve as a primary means of traveling.

That said, I agree with the comment about healing. Items that can make one immune to fatigue, I believe there is a suit of armour or something in Complete Adventurer (something something of the unending hunt?) can be key, as can fast healing.

Monks of higher level can move absurdly fast in tactical terms, but can run into the same problems with fatigue and such from overland movement and forced marches. Still, if you crank up a 20th level monk with run (450 ft/6 seconds, over 70 feet a second), the numbers are gonna be pretty silly.

It's wikipedia, but check this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting) out. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running) one too, especially the 'history' part.

In summary, it has been theorized that humans evolved to walk upright in order to allow a certain type of hunting that involves running really really far.

As far as travel goes, using animals is more about strength. Quadrupeds can carry far more than a human can, and won't tire as quickly either. That and why do something strenuous when you can train an animal to do it for you?

[limejuicepowder]

So clearly Dean Karnazes is a horizon walker with desert terrain mastery (immune to fatigue). I guess that is how he runs for 80 hours straight.

He was actually featured on Stan Lee's Superhumans. Apparently lactic acid doesn't build up in his muscles the way it does in other people, even other distance runners. Fatigue immunity would indeed be perfect.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's wikipedia, but check this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting) out. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running) one too, especially the 'history' part.

In summary, it has been theorized that humans evolved to walk upright in order to allow a certain type of hunting that involves running really really far.


Hmm, interesting reading, and I accept the general gist of your original post. However, I would raise a point with your summary. Neither article suggested, as far as I could see, that hominids evolved bipedalism in order to allow certain type of hunting. Rather that certain type of hunting was practiced after the evolution of bipedalism, in order to take advantage of superior thermoregulation also possessed by hominids (the reason for hominid endurance, in contrast to prey animals), and to counteract the loss of speed incurred by the evolution of bipedalism.

It also is unclear to me how much evidence there is that this form of hunting significantly drove human evolution, though it is still observable in some tribes, so it obviously was very successful in certain climates. By a certain point in our evolution, though, our migration to new areas and success with tool usage would have made such high-energy consumption tactics unnecessary (stalking being a more effective strategy in more heavily forested areas, along with cooperative hunting tactics improving as human society evolved). Don't know enough about the timing of the cited evidence in hominid evolution for the running theory in relation to expansion into different parts of Africa and so forth.

Interestingly, this has little bearing on our discussion of overland movement in D&D. Once humans evolved into the agrarian age, the skills that allowed persistence hunting to work would have been largely irrelevant, so most D&D humans would probably not benefit from these traits. You could easily model some kind of barbarian tribe that engages in this type of behavior by having the tribe members all be barbarian 1 with endurance as a bonus feat and run as their primary feat.

[Sacrieur]

The problem with using barbarian, monk, fleet of foot, and similar tricks is that it makes our marathoners into world-class sprinters as well. Most marathoners are rubbish over short distances—I could regularly outrun my marathoner ex-girlfriend in dashes and such, and not only is she much taller than I am, but I am seriously overweight and have hip and knee problems.

I have no problem with it for purposes of this thread, but it seems our model will never be perfect.

Not likely. Their short distance pace is pretty damn quick still. They'll be clocking 400m in under a minute, which is better than most high school sprinters can pull off. These are guys who run 5:30 miles over and over and over and over again. They finish with 5:30 miles. And a 5:30 mile is still as fast as most people can run 200m.