Optimization Frustration!

[McClintock]

ME = Lvl 15 = Swash3/Fight2/Temp2/Dervish8

AC: 37 Touch: 27 FF: 30

-9 to hit yields me: AC 50 Touch 40 FF 43 (with 1 more for dodge)

I explained all this to the DM, but he is a (non-sarc) very busy dad/coach/business man/all around good guy. He was not happy when his high level (17+) Lich could not touch me last night. I know (using these forums) I stayed completely within RAW/RAI (mostly as written), but he is still perturbed. We are almost done with this module, and looking for the NBT, so what do I do to make me less Optimized? There is more to this story, and I will update later. Need to get the kids now. I just needed to get this off my chest.

[Juntao112]

Point out to your DM that ths is a matter of tactics; if the lich had used a will save targeting spell, you'd have been in much more trouble.

[Morcleon]

Suggest to your DM that he have the lich use a will save targeting spell.

Indeed. Or anything that doesn't need an attack roll (Fort and Ref save spells work fine too).

[Juntao112]

Heck, even Magic Missile would have worked.


Anyways, the OP should take Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Those are some impressive AC numbers for that level, even for a fighter type.

Still, AC is only one layer of defense. It means nothing at all to AoE's and targetted effects. Simply repeating the previous statement to your DM should be sufficient for him to realize he may be overreacting.

If you have equally pimped saves then I could see it getting a bit aggravating but if you have that as well then you've almost certainly sunk all your resources into defense. Actually harming the lich may prove difficult if he uses even some of the most basic of wizardly defenses such as displacement and mirror image.

[Slipperychicken]

Dear McClintock's DM,

If a 17+ level spellcasting Lich is targeting AC against the Rogue-type when he has fullcasting at his disposal, he really does deserve to miss. Try "save-or-suck" spells next time, as they are far more effective and completely disregard AC in their resolution.

Yours truly,
Slipperychicken

[nedz]

The AC 37 looks about right for the level with moderate OP, but I don't understand the -9 and AC 50 bit ?

But yeah — the Lich was stupid. I can understand targeting Touch, but not normal AC.

[Spuddles]

Dear McClintock's DM,

If a 17+ level spellcasting Lich is targeting AC against the Rogue-type when he has fullcasting at his disposal, he really does deserve to miss. Try "save-or-suck" spells next time, as they are far more effective and completely disregard AC in their resolution.

Yours truly,
Slipperychicken

Yep, pretty much.

Next time use wail of the banshee or implosion and see where it takes you.

[hisnamehere]

Agreed. The Lich has a lot of (spellcasting) options available that don't require an attack roll against your character.
However, AC 40 is decently optimized. Is this 'more skilled' mechanics-wise than your DM can achieve? May he be feeling slighted for your optimizing skill?
In regard to 'dumbing you down,' that shouldn't be too hard in theory, but hard to swallow in practice. Just change a feat or two with less-optimal ones. Or choose not to take that -9 to attack.
For your next campaign, however, DM and players should agree on optimization levels. If there are strong optimizers, they should stick to Tier 6-4, and let the less-strong optimizers play the Tier 3-1.

Happy gaming!

Edit: Altho, Rogue is Tier 3, isn't it? Maybe you'll have to stick to optimized Commoners. :smallamused:

[Keld Denar]

The AC 37 looks about right for the level with moderate OP, but I don't understand the -9 and AC 50 bit ?

But yeah — the Lich was stupid. I can understand targeting Touch, but not normal AC.

Looks like a combination of Combat Expense and the Fight Defensively traffic with an investment in tumble ranks. It's HIS -9 to hit that gives him big AC, not a foes penalty to hit.

OP, I'm not really sure how to de-optimize your build. You have Tempest levels, the PrC that actually makes you worse at TWFing. I don't even know what you can do to step down from there other than maybe a few levels in Expert?

[Spuddles]

It's optimized T5, which just means some of his numbers are big. This will be a problem for gamers who are unfamiliar with spellcaster optimization.

[Juntao112]

Looks like a combination of Combat Expense and the Fight Defensively traffic with an investment in tumble ranks. It's HIS -9 to hit that gives him big AC, not a foes penalty to hit.

OP, I'm not really sure how to de-optimize your build. You have Tempest levels, the PrC that actually makes you worse at TWFing. I don't even know what you can do to step down from there other than maybe a few levels in Expert?

Levels of Duelist.

[Zanthy1]

If you want to make yourself less optimized, which was the question posed initially, limit yourself to a few books, maybe even just the Core set, and maybe limit multi classing to only like 1 or 2 with possibly a prestige.

I personally do not think the DM should have a lot of insta-kill things to just throw around at PCs, unless its a one off adventure. But in a campaign, that is just cruel. Maybe blindness, or massive damage dealing, but having a baddie, even the BBEG just be able to drop a PC with a single spell and a failed will save seems to.....anti climatic. Imagine if that happened in a book or movie..

"The Hero climbed to the top of the stairs and saw his vile enemy, the Lichlord who had slain his family and ravaged his village. He bellowed a cry of hatred and charged. The Lich cast a spell...the Hero dropped dead. End of story."

Seems kinda lame right?

[nedz]

Looks like a combination of Combat Expense and the Fight Defensively traffic with an investment in tumble ranks. It's HIS -9 to hit that gives him big AC, not a foes penalty to hit.

OP, I'm not really sure how to de-optimize your build. You have Tempest levels, the PrC that actually makes you worse at TWFing. I don't even know what you can do to step down from there other than maybe a few levels in Expert?

If he's using TWF, which would appear likely, he can take Improved Buckler Defence (or equivalent) and use a +4 Buckler for +5 AC, +5 Mithril Shirt for +9, Ring Prot +4, Amulet NA +4, Dex +5 for AC 37.
It's not hard really.
Ed: Combat Expense and Fighting Defensively for the +9 I suppose ?

[Deophaun]

I think the answer is that you just don't fight defensively.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A thought; you are aware, OP, that the benefits of fighting defensively and combat expertise only apply to foes you're engaged in melee with, right?

The lich slinging spells from accross the room only has to hit the 37 baseline or the 30 touch unless some of that extra 13 comes from somewhere else.

[Deophaun]

A thought; you are aware, OP, that the benefits of fighting defensively and combat expertise only apply to foes you're engaged in melee with, right?
No.

Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
You can fight defensively with a bow, take -4 penalty to your attacks, and gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC. Nowhere in the description does it state the dodge bonus only applies to creatures you are in melee against.

While combat expertise must be activated with a melee attack, it also is devoid of any clause saying that your dodge bonus only applies to melee attacks against you.

[Phelix-Mu]

I personally do not think the DM should have a lot of insta-kill things to just throw around at PCs, unless its a one off adventure. But in a campaign, that is just cruel. Maybe blindness, or massive damage dealing, but having a baddie, even the BBEG just be able to drop a PC with a single spell and a failed will save seems to.....anti climatic. Imagine if that happened in a book or movie..

"The Hero climbed to the top of the stairs and saw his vile enemy, the Lichlord who had slain his family and ravaged his village. He bellowed a cry of hatred and charged. The Lich cast a spell...the Hero dropped dead. End of story."

Seems kinda lame right?

I dunno. I would be more sketched out if the hero who apparently thought he could solo the lich spellcaster didn't actually have to fear the worst of what spellcasting has to offer. The lich is slated to be a challenge to a whole team, and if the lich isn't capable of at least a chance of dropping one or two of the team in the first/second round, then the lich is the one that is anti-climactic. Kill spells/cripple spells are the go-to openers for high-level casters, it's kind of silly to suggest the lich won't use them because the plot suggests the pcs need to win. Poorly prepared party deserves to die, IMHO.

[nedz]

A thought; you are aware, OP, that the benefits of fighting defensively and combat expertise only apply to foes you're engaged in melee with, right?

The lich slinging spells from accross the room only has to hit the 37 baseline or the 30 touch unless some of that extra 13 comes from somewhere else.

You have to be attacking basically.
So if your Ray Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard is firing off ranged touch attacks which aren't going ever to miss, he could do so defensively.

[Juntao112]

If you want to make yourself less optimized, which was the question posed initially, limit yourself to a few books, maybe even just the Core set, and maybe limit multi classing to only like 1 or 2 with possibly a prestige.

I personally do not think the DM should have a lot of insta-kill things to just throw around at PCs, unless its a one off adventure. But in a campaign, that is just cruel. Maybe blindness, or massive damage dealing, but having a baddie, even the BBEG just be able to drop a PC with a single spell and a failed will save seems to.....anti climatic. Imagine if that happened in a book or movie..

"The Hero climbed to the top of the stairs and saw his vile enemy, the Lichlord who had slain his family and ravaged his village. He bellowed a cry of hatred and charged. The Lich cast a spell...the Hero dropped dead. End of story."

Seems kinda lame right?
So blind him with Glitterdust.

[Zanthy1]

I dunno. I would be more sketched out if the hero who apparently thought he could solo the lich spellcaster didn't actually have to fear the worst of what spellcasting has to offer. The lich is slated to be a challenge to a whole team, and if the lich isn't capable of at least a chance of dropping one or two of the team in the first/second round, then the lich is the one that is anti-climactic. Kill spells/cripple spells are the go-to openers for high-level casters, it's kind of silly to suggest the lich won't use them because the plot suggests the pcs need to win. Poorly prepared party deserves to die, IMHO.

Well I should say heroes, not hero. I am not implying that the PCs absolutely must win, but there is only so much prep people can do. Especially if you are not building the character at the level you would be encountering the lich at. For example: building a level 1 character and working up to the level when you'd fight the lich, depending on how the DM dishes out loot and such, you may or may not have the opportunity to prepare. Alternatively, if you build the character at the high level, then maybe you should prepare a little more for insta kill spells, but then in that case, you are spending most of your monies on will and fort save boosters, which changes how your character would interact with the world. A fighter who has spent so much effort to boost his will saves, is not going to have the same amount of damage dealing as a fighter of equal level who instead went with his normal class traits and made himself more physically powerful.

I am not saying that the lich should be a pushover, that is never the case. What I am saying is that the lich should not kill off a player instantly with a single "save or die" spell. At least when the lich is using blasting magic or similar combat spells, the PCs can actually have an action. What if the lich rolls higher initiative and drops the tank first round? I am not saying that the lich should be nice, but as a DM it is your duty to ensure that everyone is having a good time, and killing off someone with the snap of your fingers Ruins the game for at least that player, and maybe even the party. Liches are serious buggers, and of course the PC party should be prepared to handle them, but some classes just don't do certain saves, and you are asking them to pull resources from their more valuable class abilities so that they can "prepare" to hopefully resist an insta-kill spell, that could be cast the very next turn again? If that is the case, what is the point in playing a character that doesn't have good will saves? Why not everyone just play Wizards? OH WAIT I know, it is because there are other things out there that even the over powered wizard cannot handle, and thus needs other party members to assist.

Why do you think the party archetypes exist? The reason the stereotypical party of tank, healer, utility, and DPS exists is because one character cannot handle a situation of the certain level solo. Sure a lvl 15 could beat a CR 3 dungeon solo, but a lvl 15 beating a CR 15 dungeon solo? A lot less likely.

You cannot just kill off a PC like that, as it messes up the entire structure of the game. There is no need for the party to diversify if all they are doing is prepping against death spells. You mention crippling spells, that is much more exciting as it not only makes the combat more difficult (not impossible, just difficult) but it also adds a cool role-play thing for after the encounter.

Another thing you have to account for comrade, is that anyone can roll a nat 1. Even if you have a +100000 to your will saves, a crit fail is a failure to pass the save. DMs whose desire is to kill off a character are abusive of said power, just because a player makes a character that can thwart something of yours, does not mean the only solution is death. If you wish to do a TPK, don't make a long campaign with that in mind, make a one shot dungeon that is meant to challenge, but ultimately be near impossible to survive. There is something that I believe is called 4th core, which is technically set for 4th edition, but can easily be converted to 3.5 or any other. What it is is the DM makes a crazy hard dungeon, with every intent to TPK, and the players know that in advance, and they just see how far they can get. That is where insta-kills belong, not in a story based campaign.

[andromax]

He was not happy when his high level (17+) Lich could not touch me last night. I know (using these forums) I stayed completely within RAW/RAI (mostly as written), but he is still perturbed.

He's evidently not very familiar with game mechanics, as others have pointed out.

As a 15th level Tier 4 character he is perterbed at you for having one good thing going for you??

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Another potential tactic for the lich: Ignore your character.

You're TWFing with no source of significant bonus damage* and a -9 to hit on top of everything else. This isn't meant as an insult to your build; if you're fighting enemies who will target your character('s AC) no matter what, which apparently is the case, your build generates valuable action denial. Just know that part of your build depends on sub-par DM tactics. (You might not want to bring this part up with him.)

*The swash int bonus is precision based, and so doesn't work on the lich. Your allies might be giving you something; if so then it was a team effort, and refer to the "target saves" advice above.

[LordBlades]

If you want to make yourself less optimized, which was the question posed initially, limit yourself to a few books, maybe even just the Core set, and maybe limit multi classing to only like 1 or 2 with possibly a prestige.

I personally do not think the DM should have a lot of insta-kill things to just throw around at PCs, unless its a one off adventure. But in a campaign, that is just cruel. Maybe blindness, or massive damage dealing, but having a baddie, even the BBEG just be able to drop a PC with a single spell and a failed will save seems to.....anti climatic. Imagine if that happened in a book or movie..

"The Hero climbed to the top of the stairs and saw his vile enemy, the Lichlord who had slain his family and ravaged his village. He bellowed a cry of hatred and charged. The Lich cast a spell...the Hero dropped dead. End of story."

Seems kinda lame right?

Except D&D is not a solo story. It's about a group of good guys. If all the good guys die, it's usually lame, but many good stories have some of the good guys die in order to enhance drama.

[Darrin]

Point out to your DM that ths is a matter of tactics; if the lich had used a will save targeting spell, you'd have been in much more trouble.

Even better... this is a trick my old DM liked to pull in Call of Cthulhu games if someone tries to optimize an investigator for combat: If you want to turn the DM's frustration into impish glee, point out he should have hit your character with a dominate person. Now hitting you isn't his problem, it's the party's problem.

[Zanthy1]

Except D&D is not a solo story. It's about a group of good guys. If all the good guys die, it's usually lame, but many good stories have some of the good guys die in order to enhance drama.

As I said in a follow up post, I did not mean to make my statement strictly for a solo Hero, but rather a party of Heroes.

Many good stories have characters die in order to enhance the drama this is true, but very very few, if any, have them just drop dead with a single action. Usually they are either brought down in an epic, fight to the death manner (Boromir anyone?) or something else like a sickness. Those are ways that make a character's death memorable and entirely epic. A player whose character dies going down in flames or even with a long term sickness, will have a better time than one who just saw the loch, dropped dead. Now if the lich decided to drop a NPC with an insta-kill, to enhance drama, that would be totally ok, because the NPC is not actually played by one of your friends.

"The parties favorite jester, who had traveled with them from the get go, and helped guide them through the evil forest of doom, opened the door and was struck down by a powerful spell cast from the vile lich. The party, in an outrage, swore to avenge their fallen friend."

Now that could also work with a PC, except you just essentially kicked someone out of the game. Unless they are not going to fight the lich immediately, and that player can roll up a new character, then he or she is just going to be sitting there, watching the rest of the party fight the BBEG. Would you have fun doing that?

[McClintock]

Thank you for all the input. Now that I have had a chance to talk more with my DM. The situation is not about my optimization per se, its more about his view of the game and how it should work. He believes a small amount of reality should infiltrate the game, and does not see how physically my character could possibly be as skilled as the numbers say I am. He knows I am completely within the rules, he just doesn't like the rules.

On the Build: With hero's Feast, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Dervish dance, my -9 gets down to -1. I do 1d6(scimitar) + 1d6(sacred bonus) + 3(weapon) +2 (strength) + 4(dance) +3(wrath) = 2d6+12 (x4 attacks) primary and 2d6+10 (x3 attacks) offhand or 19/18 points of damage per hit with only a -1. I know that those not the numbers of some of the uber-hitters, but it is enough to keep the childish guys in my group from teasing me about dancing in battle.

They really do shut up when I am fighting a foe that I can crit and proceed to lay it out as fast as the "heavy" hitting paladin we have in the group.

I know this build is not GITP ultra optimized, but I was not going for that. I wanted a character that could fill a specific niche in our group, shine - but not out shine others, and be fun to play. I had accomplished that until a few nights ago when the DM pulled the realism card out of his pocket. Now I am at a loss.

[Deophaun]

He believes a small amount of reality should infiltrate the game, and does not see how physically my character could possibly be as skilled as the numbers say I am.
Translation: Melee doesn't get nice things. Be a wizard.

That's unfortunate.

[McClintock]

OP, I'm not really sure how to de-optimize your build. You have Tempest levels, the PrC that actually makes you worse at TWFing. I don't even know what you can do to step down from there other than maybe a few levels in Expert?


2 levels of tempest adds to my AC, attack roll, reduces TWF penalties by 1 (effectively adding a total of +3 to my attack roll), adds 2d10 hit dice and more to my saves, exactly how does 2 levels of tempest hurt my twf?

[Kelb_Panthera]

2 levels of tempest adds to my AC, attack roll, reduces TWF penalties by 1 (effectively adding a total of +3 to my attack roll), adds 2d10 hit dice and more to my saves, exactly how does 2 levels of tempest hurt my twf?

The problem is that entering tempest has a nasty feat tax and actually paying it severely hampers filling your characters feats with more TWF feats.

Since you had to make those prereq's for another class anyway though, it's much less of a relative detriment than it otherwise might be. Tempest also encourages the use of spring-attack; a tactic which is mutually exclusive with TWF.

Tempest is bad for TWF in isolation because of what it requires and how it works. It can have a place in a build that's designed to work with it or that meets its prerequisite feat tax anyway.

On the realism thing; point out to your DM that simply having max ranks in jump for your level and taking 10 would have you matching or exceeding world-record distances for jumping while wearing 10+ pounds of armor and carrying 20 or 30 pounds of gear as well. You've left normal reality behind by level 6. You're at least equivalent to comic-book superheroes at this point on raw ability alone. You're also decked out in a christmas tree of magic items.

[Darrin]

2 levels of tempest adds to my AC, attack roll, reduces TWF penalties by 1 (effectively adding a total of +3 to my attack roll), adds 2d10 hit dice and more to my saves, exactly how does 2 levels of tempest hurt my twf?

Most of the forum residents have a knee-jerk negative reaction to Tempest. The biggest beef against Tempest is it requires the Spring Attack line of feats to get into it, but Spring Attack generally doesn't add anything useful to a TWF build. What it does add doesn't actually help TWF that much, usually less help than taking 5 levels of something else.

That being said, I can see how you've deliberately nerfed your build to meet the optimization expectations of the group and/or DM... and then somehow managed to break the game anyway. That's pretty impressive.

As far as your DM's concept of how the game "should be"... it reminds me of an anecdote from Gary Gygax's original campaign, where he actually had a "no gunpowder" rule. One of his original players, Don Kaye, was an absolute fanatic about Westerns, and one of the earliest D&D sessions involved his PC Murlynd being transported to an alternate universe based on the Wild West (the precursor to Boot Hill), and afterwards he brought back a pair of six-shooters back into the D&D world. Gygax was uncomfortable with this because it violated his "no gunpowder" rule, but he later ruled that Murlynd had two magic wands that made loud noises and spat out small deadly missiles.

It may seem odd that something like this would bother Gygax, when a great deal of the early D&D modules included all sorts of wacky sci-fi elements (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks = robots, Temple of the Frog = laser rifles, etc.). Although many of these modules were not written by Gary himself, he was not immune to including anachronisms: after all, the original Castle Greyhawk even had a room that spoofed the bridge crew of the Enterprise, as well as many other in-jokes and pop-culture references.

But if you read Gygax's posts later in life, you can see he wasn't bothered so much by including technology, sci-fi, or cross-genre world-jumping into heroic fantasy, but he was a very firm believer in "purity of genre". As a veteran wargamer, he was obviously no stranger to gunpowder weapons and their impact on a battlefield. But in his mind, gunpowder didn't "belong" in epic fantasy, and thus the "no gunpowder" rule. (I imagine he was also afraid that if he allowed it into his game, his players would be building gatling guns and mobilized artillery two weeks later).

It sounds like your DM has a similar issue, but I would encourage him to adopt a Gygaxian view: Gary was always very quick to drop his insistence on "purity of genre" when it came into conflict with the players having fun, and all the older D&D modules are littered with artifacts that embraced this attitude.

[LordBlades]

As I said in a follow up post, I did not mean to make my statement strictly for a solo Hero, but rather a party of Heroes.

Many good stories have characters die in order to enhance the drama this is true, but very very few, if any, have them just drop dead with a single action. Usually they are either brought down in an epic, fight to the death manner (Boromir anyone?) or something else like a sickness. Those are ways that make a character's death memorable and entirely epic. A player whose character dies going down in flames or even with a long term sickness, will have a better time than one who just saw the loch, dropped dead. Now if the lich decided to drop a NPC with an insta-kill, to enhance drama, that would be totally ok, because the NPC is not actually played by one of your friends.

Actually, in more grimdark stories, getting one-shotted(or killed without being able to prevent it in any way) from time to time helps set the tone that some times good guys fail and there's nothing they can do about it.
Your point stands however in regards to heroic stories.

Sadly, D&D fails horribly at the going down in flames part. There's so many escape means available (unless you're playing low-level and/or very low-op) that shutting them all down so you can have somebody go down in a blaze of glory takes significantly more effort than killing him. Pretty much the only way you can stop somebody in D&D from getting away is taking him from 'I'm totally OK, I'm staying to fight this' to '****, I'm fully incapacitated/dead' before he has time to act again.




Now that could also work with a PC, except you just essentially kicked someone out of the game. Unless they are not going to fight the lich immediately, and that player can roll up a new character, then he or she is just going to be sitting there, watching the rest of the party fight the BBEG. Would you have fun doing that?

It all depends on your gaming group. My group plays relatively high-op, and as such our fights are quite short: 1h-1h.30 RL time, 1-2 rounds in game (occasionally they go on for longer, but usually by the end of round 2 the battle is pretty much decided one way or the other). So getting killed before you can act means you get to lose about 10 min of character action.