Is the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat worth it?

[killem2]

I'm a level 2 Spell-gifted, Focused Specialist Conjurer (Strongheart Halfling) and most likely
end with:

Conjurer (UA variants: Rapid summon, Enhanced Summon) 3/Master Specialist 10/Malconvoker 6/ParagnosticApostle 1

I Have the following feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Extend Spell, Nexus Method, Spell Focus (Conjuration)

I'm having reservations about the reserve feat. The handbooks sure make it seem useful as all heck but, is it? Is an elemental really that versatile?

[Deophaun]

Don't you want an earth elemental always at your fingertips to earthglide to the other side of the door and see what's there? That alone is worth the feat.

[Story]

Summon Elemental is for utility, not combat. Nothing else (within reason) gives you the ability to have an elemental all day that you can resummon endlessly. You can even swap out the type at will depending on the situation, though earth is by far the most useful, since it can scout through walls and the floor.

[sreservoir]

it is.

you know people say you can replace the party corpse for the most part by summoning monkeys? well, elementals are kind of like that. but you run out of them less.

and then they have other uses, too.

[Phelix-Mu]

At early to mid-levels, the caster level boost can help out as well, especially if your DM does not allow some of the other numerous other ways to boost CL. More duration and improved range are both big factors early on, and even later on, with spells like elemental swarm and such, extra +1 to CL is +10 minutes of duration.

Not sure how useful it would be if you are more likely to rely on planar binding and the like. Most of my summoning experience comes from druid, hehe.

And, to echo earlier posts, you can never have enough intelligent minions. Although they aren't geniuses, they can speak a language and follow orders. At higher levels, they are big enough to carry a fallen comrade, stand between you and the enemy, or provide flanking bonuses to your stronger summons. Range is an issue, but there is no real penalty except having to summon another one when one goes away. Ditto with earth glide being perhaps the most absurdly useful special quality in the game.

[chaos_redefined]

If you question the use of an endless stream of disposable minions, then you should probably reconsider summoning as a main schtick.

[Wyntonian]

Bonus points if you use Cloudy Conjuration for some BFC in combat.

Pretty sure that works, I'd need to check the wording but I've seen it before.

[killem2]

If you question the use of an endless stream of disposable minions, then you should probably reconsider summoning as a main schtick.

I don't think it is unreasonable to question message boards, handbooks, or info that is given. I happen to think it is quite important to expand ones knowledge of a subject.

[Deophaun]

Pretty sure that works, I'd need to check the wording but I've seen it before.
Nope. Cloudy Conjuration only works with conjuration spells, while the powers granted by reserve feats are supernatural abilities.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think it is unreasonable to question message boards, handbooks, or info that is given. I happen to think it is quite important to expand ones knowledge of a subject.
The point being made isn't that it's bad to question handbooks, but that an endless stream of loyal and disposable minions lends itself to a number of uses that are readily apparent, and making use of such minions is the first step towards effectively managing more complicated creatures.

And when I say managing, I mean throwing into the fray to die for fleeting tactical advantage.

[Spuddles]

I believe stuff like augment summoning and rashemi elemental summoning affect the summons, but not positive.

[Deophaun]

I believe stuff like augment summoning and rashemi elemental summoning affect the summons, but not positive.
Augment Summoning:

Each creature you conjure with any summon spell...
Rashemi Elemental Summoning

When casting a spell...
So that would be a no on both counts.

[TypoNinja]

Summon Elemental is for utility, not combat. Nothing else (within reason) gives you the ability to have an elemental all day that you can resummon endlessly. You can even swap out the type at will depending on the situation, though earth is by far the most useful, since it can scout through walls and the floor.

I actually ran a game for 18 levels where the wizard was a summoner, he made great use of the free Earth Elementals from the Reserve Feat in combat. Their /- DR makes them great damage sponges, you can always summon another one, and while an intelligent opponent will go for the caster and ignore the summon, there are plenty of un-intellignet threats that will just slash at whatever is in their face, or tight spaces where a meat(err rock?)shield can be effective.

Just remember to make sure you speak the same language as your summon if you want to give him orders.

[Killer Angel]

I'm having reservations about the reserve feat. The handbooks sure make it seem useful as all heck but, is it? Is an elemental really that versatile?

I remember your thread about the "keeping track of the summoned creature", and I see you're developing the Malconvoker... :smallsmile:

Yes, feats are few and precious, but the reserve feat is very good. And the elemental is versatile... in the same way prestidigitation is. It depends on you and your imagination.

[Morph Bark]

Is it worth it?

Yes. Oh god yes. I've played so few times due to being a DM more often, but one of the times I've played I played a wizard with that feat and we avoided so many traps because of it, plus we had a free scout. Fire elementals also served as a light. Larger elementals could even serve as a ride.

[Spuddles]

Augment Summoning:

Rashemi Elemental Summoning

So that would be a no on both counts.

Oh....
:*(

[Bonzai]

I just got through with a campaign where I played a Focused Specialist Conjurer3/Master Specialist 10/Thaumaturgist 3. The reserve feat came in real handy early on, and still leant some utility latter on.

Early tactics with it involved providing flanks, and one of the reciepients for a Benign Transposition to get a team mate out of a bad spot. Resource free scouting, trap detection, and at worst a speed bump.

So yeah, it's handy. Not mandatory by any stretch, but handy. Latter on, you don't always want to waste an action to summon them in combat, but they retain their utility outside of combat.

[Darth_Versity]

Augment Summoning:

Rashemi Elemental Summoning

So that would be a no on both counts.

Are you sure?


The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell

Would suggest that the elemental summoned would have any effects applied that a normal summons would.

[Lapak]

I just got through with a campaign where I played a Focused Specialist Conjurer3/Master Specialist 10/Thaumaturgist 3. The reserve feat came in real handy early on, and still leant some utility latter on.

Early tactics with it involved providing flanks, and one of the reciepients for a Benign Transposition to get a team mate out of a bad spot. Resource free scouting, trap detection, and at worst a speed bump.

So yeah, it's handy. Not mandatory by any stretch, but handy. Latter on, you don't always want to waste an action to summon them in combat, but they retain their utility outside of combat.You can deny a flank as well as provide one. You can block a lane to prevent charges. You can summon it 30' away, so it's also a free set of hands on the other side of a gap or a barricade - summon it beyond a portcullis to open the gate, send it behind enemy lines to grab the thing they're guarding. Summon a fire elemental to start fires, summon a water elemental to fight fires, summon an air elemental to deal with Swarms. They have a million-and-one uses!

[killem2]

Thanks for the replies. I usually like to ask about these things because forums and handbooks and guides are notorious for theory crafting and less about putting things into practice.

I think with the responses here, it is clear that it has been put into practice :).

[Deophaun]

Would suggest that the elemental summoned would have any effects applied that a normal summons would.
No, that would suggest that you have the same control over it as you would one you summoned, and that it behaves the exact same way if you don't issue it any commands.

[Darth_Versity]

No, that would suggest that you have the same control over it as you would one you summoned, and that it behaves the exact same way if you don't issue it any commands.

Depends on how you determine 'Acts'. If your looking at it from the view that 'acts' refers to the mental actions of the creature, then your correct. If it instead refers to the how the creature as a whole acts (including its physical makeup, not just its mental control) then my version is correct.

It's hard to determine as 'acts' is not a word that is defined within the rules, thus either interpretation is correct, but I think that is a bit off topic and no amount of back and forth will resolve the issue as we'll never get a true clarification from WotC.

I would say though that my interpretation alongside Rashemi Elemental Summoning would just be wrong. Unlimited Cone of Cold anyone?

[Deophaun]

Depends on how you determine 'Acts'.
No. It's because the elemental itself is irrelevant. The feats key off of how a spell "acts," in your parlance, not how a creature "acts." Since the feat doesn't "act" like a summon spell, then the feats can't affect the creature.

And we know that it's not even RAI, because if it was, then the feat would have said "as if summoned by a summon spell," as the writers do everywhere else that behavior is intended.

[Spuddles]

You can use summoned elementals to transport yourself past obstacles via benign transposition.

[killem2]

You can use summoned elementals to transport yourself past obstacles via benign transposition.

Nice! I don't need LOS for that at all?

[ShriekingDrake]

Does this feat limit one only to Air, Earth, Fire, and Water Elementals proper or are the parenthetical descriptions subtypes, thus expanding the list of available elementals to summon?

[Lapak]

Nice! I don't need LOS for that at all?You do need LOS for both the summoning and the Benign Transposition, but on the up side you're getting a Dimension Door-style effect to go past a barricade / go up to a higher platform / cross over a gap for a level 1 spell slot.

[Story]

What else could you summon? I can't find any elementals other than the classic ones.

[killem2]

What else could you summon? I can't find any elementals other than the classic ones.



i don't know the raw implications but if you can choose others which I DON'T think you can..

http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/results.php?id=1891743049&skip=0

:) there are quite a lot!

[Story]

Oh, I figured that it had to have Elemental in the name, so only the Storm one is added. But if it refers to type, I can see how there's a lot of variety.

At any rate, I think RAI is pretty clear.

[killem2]

Oh, I figured that it had to have Elemental in the name, so only the Storm one is added. But if it refers to type, I can see how there's a lot of variety.

At any rate, I think RAI is pretty clear.

never hurts to ask the dm! :D I will be!

[Jack_Simth]

I would say though that my interpretation alongside Rashemi Elemental Summoning would just be wrong. Unlimited Cone of Cold anyone?Less useful than you might think. Sure, it's got a big area (60 foot cone), however, the damage output is almost nothing. At level 7 (the earliest you can have both feats at once [and even that takes a little bit of doing] as well as the 4th level spell slot - at least without cheese), you're using small elementals, which only have two hit dice. That cone of cold deals 2d6 damage. At 11th, you've got medium elementals, with four hit dice; that cone of cold deals 4d6 damage. At 15th, you've got Large elementals, with eight hit dice; your damage output is now 8d6, about on par with a Warlock's. Oh yes, and it's Reflex Half, SR applies. For the most part, you're better off grabbing one of the direct offence reserve feats (such as Acidic Splatter or Fiery Burst). Now, it does become useful in combination... but even then, it's not really all that grand unless the thing you're fighting really can't do anything to you if you simply ignore it (aka, you're invisible thanks to your Ring of Invisibility, it can't locate you, and you'd rather not break invisibility or burn actual resources on this fight).

Summon Elemental is mostly for a quick flank, having a quick block handy to prevent a charge, and out of combat utility (goes great with a Vampiric weapon - see the Magic Item Compendium - for uncapped non-combat healing for the whole party; works great as a component of the Wizard Trapsmith [you'll also either want some way to detect magic at will - magic sensitive, vatic gaze, or permanency - and something good for destroying objects at will at range [such as Acidic Splatter or Fiery Burst], for this party role], and makes for handy servants.. eventually very limited flight, too [a Large Air elemental can carry 116 pounds as a light load; if you've got Augment Summoning on there, that's a bit more - which will probably be enough to carry a wizard... and I'm a little fuzzy on whether or not an Air Elemental can fly under a medium or heavy load]), and they also make really handy scouts (Earth Glide has been mentioned to death).


What else could you summon? I can't find any elementals other than the classic ones.
If it's allowed, the Invisible Stalker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/invisibleStalker.htm) is a Large Elemental with the Air subtype, which would normally require Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally VII to get one. And if that type of summoning is permitted, you could get them at-will for a feat and keeping an 8th level spell locked up.

[TypoNinja]

Feat text specifies;


air, earth, fire, or water; your choice

Ask your DM though, he may allow para-elementals and others, I certainly would provided the cheese doesn't get too stinky.

[Darth_Versity]

No. It's because the elemental itself is irrelevant. The feats key off of how a spell "acts," in your parlance, not how a creature "acts." Since the feat doesn't "act" like a summon spell, then the feats can't affect the creature.

And we know that it's not even RAI, because if it was, then the feat would have said "as if summoned by a summon spell," as the writers do everywhere else that behavior is intended.

Well i'm not convinced, but hey, tomaato/tomarto. I know applying additional feats and PrC abilities shouldn't make things to overpowered, and if you overspecialise to make a reserve feat powerful then your probably gimped in other areas so i'll use my interpretation in my games.

[Talionis]

Even if the damage is bad, the elemental provides extra action economy. In games where Leadership isn't allowed, it's a way to get more actions. Pick that up and run while I attack, etc.

[Story]

Don't you normally need an action to command it?

[TypoNinja]

Don't you normally need an action to command it?

While the summon is under your command it is not under your direct mental control, so you simply need to speak a command, typically a free action unless its a particularly complex set of orders.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, yes: And if you want to invest more than one feat into Summon Elemental, I once Asked the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6532552#post6532552) about how it could be boosted (assuming, of course, that things that affect Summon spells also affect Summon Elemental; I suppose technically it can be read either way).

But do get a Ring of Invisibility if you plan on using these things in combat. They're slow to kill things, and you'll want an obvious target for your enemies.