Sorcerer Handbook?

[ImaginaryDragon]

Hi all. I'm looking to make a sorcerer, and in the process of doing so I was looking around for a sorcerer handbook, but my Googleing didn't turn up much. I found Solo's guide, which is of limited practical usefulness, and a bunch of stuff on brilliantgameologists, which appears to be dead. Is there any comprehensive repository of sorcerous power?

[Spuddles]

Shape Spell & Heighten Spell are the best metamagic feats, followed closely by empower spell.

Some combination of (shaped, heightened and/or empowered)
Grease- it disarms, it trips, it locks things down, it gets you and friends out of grapples, shape it to get cubic squares or fireball radius or lines of it.

Glitterdust- blind, outline, now with a 20ft radius thanks to shape spell. your sneak attackers will love you. non-mind affecting will save, works on constructs and undead, no SR.

Web- better at low levels than high, with a torch it's a decent AoE fire/burn the inn down spell. Locks up a ridiculous amount of battlefield. Good until level 8.

Ray of Stupidity- auto shut down an animal, spam it to shut down anything that isn't immune to ability damage

Wings of Cover- protect yourself from a targeted attack. incredibly useful

Power Word Pain- at low levels, combine this with a grease or a web. almost broken

alter self- fly, burrow, climb, swim, natural armor

Evard's Black Tentacles- like web, but better

Slow- non mind affecting will save, shuts down anything dependent on full attacks

command undead- hello there pet zombie. absolutely baller at low levels in undead heavy games.

Magic Missile- convenient force damage. reliable, precise, scales nicely with empower spell. useful to have around, for picking off enemies, ghosts, and to shoot enemy casters in the face.

Hail of Stone- unavoidable AoE damage. works great with shape spell and other metamagics, as there is no SR and no save and no damage type.

Benign Transposition- super duper useful. Move allies around the field, surprise your enemies, get over pets, prevent someone from being coup degraced, keep some trained mice to switch places with friends that are grappled by monsters. Many, many uses.

Bands of Steel- decent single target immobilization.

great thunderclap- it stuns, it deafens, it trips! fort! will! reflex!

wings of flurry- uncapped force damage for a 4th level slot. Worth it. Never worry about wasting another spell known on a damage spell (maybe an orb spell, if you hate yourself). Shapes nicely.

shrink item- circumvent doors, turn environmental hazards into scary doom weapons with launch item. shrink a vat of acid, a puddle of lava, a small iceberg, boulders, then fling them at your enemies.

improved invisibility- avoid detection, hurt your enemies, continueto avoid detection

fly- not everyone can turn into a winged elf, you know

[ImaginaryDragon]

That's great, thanks!

Do you have any suggestions for class beyond sorcerer 20?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level, and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). You get to decide every spell that's on it and how often each can be used. Every time you upgrade/modify it you can completely replace its current properties with new ones if equal value. The value of its magical properties has a level-based limit, but there is no limit to the value you can sacrifice into it for later use.

When your party would sell junk loot for half price, buy it from the party pool for that price. You'll still get a fair share of that back when the cash is split, so for example in a party of four characters, 1,000 gp worth of junk loot will cost you 500 gp, and you'll get 125 gp of that back, for a net cost of 375 gp. You can sacrifice the full value of all that junk loot into your Ancestral Relic to upgrade it, so it's upgraded for considerably less than half price.

[Zanthy1]

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level, and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). You get to decide every spell that's on it and how often each can be used. Every time you upgrade/modify it you can completely replace its current properties with new ones if equal value. The value of its magical properties has a level-based limit, but there is no limit to the value you can sacrifice into it for later use.

When your party would sell junk loot for half price, buy it from the party pool for that price. You'll still get a fair share of that back when the cash is split, so for example in a party of four characters, 1,000 gp worth of junk loot will cost you 500 gp, and you'll get 125 gp of that back, for a net cost of 375 gp. You can sacrifice the full value of all that junk loot into your Ancestral Relic to upgrade it, so it's upgraded for considerably less than half price.

Which books are these in? I am unfamiliar with the abbreviation, but would really like to find this!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Which books are these in? I am unfamiliar with the abbreviation, but would really like to find this!

Ancestral Relic is in Book of Exalted Deeds, and Runestaff is in Magic Item Compendium. Google is easy (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=3.5+abbreviations&oq=3.5+abbre&gs_l=hp.3.0.0j0i5i30l2j0i8i30.1125.4417.0.5450.10. 10.0.0.0.0.157.1404.0j10.10.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.r 1cmIuyuCps&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41018144,d.b2I&fp=905cee1fa1acf349&biw=1920&bih=996).

[GenericMook]

That's great, thanks!

Do you have any suggestions for class beyond sorcerer 20?

Sorcerer 20 is horribad. No class features, and it doesn't even get prepared spells. As soon as you can switch to a prestige class, do it.

Some suggestions:

1) Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil: 7/7 full caster progression. Some of the best damn defensive abilities around.
2) Incantatrix: Full casting and metamagic shenanigans!
3) Sandshaper: You lose one level of casting, but you gain a TON of spells known. Totally worthwhile.
4) Dweomerkeeper: If you want to dip into an divine class to meet the reqs for this, it gets silly broken.

Generally, anything that would work for a wizard works really well for a Sorcerer.

[Libertad]

Here's Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems. (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,654.0.html)

[Juntao112]

I found Solo's guide, which is of limited practical usefulness
He's seen it.

[Libertad]

OK, let's see what I can find:

8 Simple Rules for selecting sorcerer spells. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-XTdX_YESK8J:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D7229.0%3Bwap2+8+Simple+Rules+F or+Selecting+Sorcerer+Spells&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Short Sorcerer Handbook. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871358/Short_Sorcerer_Handbook)

[Flickerdart]

It would help if you told us what kind of sorcerer you wanted to be. Unlike a wizard, druid, or cleric, a sorcerer's sharply limited spells known mean that he needs to pick a specialty and, for the most part, stick to it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It would help if you told us what kind of sorcerer you wanted to be. Unlike a wizard, druid, or cleric, a sorcerer's sharply limited spells known mean that he needs to pick a specialty and, for the most part, stick to it.

Apparently you missed my post, a Sorcerer has just as much versatility as a Wizard as long as he's got a day free to retune his Runestaff.

[BowStreetRunner]

All of these PrCs can improve upon the base sorcerer without sacrificing much of anything more than having to meet the prerequisites.


Ruathar
Abjurant Champion
Sacred Exorcist
Fiend-Blooded (9 levels at least)

[Flickerdart]

Apparently you missed my post, a Sorcerer has just as much versatility as a Wizard as long as he's got a day free to retune his Runestaff.
I did miss it, but now that I read it, there are a couple of issues (required Good alignment and a consecrated place that is easily accessible for you, "masterwork" requirement that a runestaff cannot technically meet as it is not a weapon, custom magic items, downtime measured in days if you're making large adjustments) that make it an imperfect solution even with a cooperative DM, and certainly one that should not be relied upon for day-to-day functionality.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I did miss it, but now that I read it, there are a couple of issues (required Good alignment and a consecrated place that is easily accessible for you, "masterwork" requirement that a runestaff cannot technically meet as it is not a weapon, custom magic items, downtime measured in days if you're making large adjustments) that make it an imperfect solution even with a cooperative DM, and certainly one that should not be relied upon for day-to-day functionality.

Weapons aren't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#masterworkArmor) the only (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#artisansToolsMasterwork) items possible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#thievesToolsMasterwork) for masterwork quality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork). Besides that, Runestaffs are indeed staffs, for example the Runestaff of Ethereal Action (MIC p178) is a +1/Masterwork Ghost Touch Quarterstaff in addition to being a Runestaff.

"At any time, you may retreat to a consecrated or hallowed location and spend time in prayer in order to awaken the spirits in your ancestral relic. This requires a sacrifice of valuable items worth the difference between the market price of the magic item your relic will become and the market price of your current relic.... You must spend 1 day per 1,000 gp value you sacrifice. During this time, you must spend at least 8 hours each day in prayer or meditation, not stopping to eat or rest."

Let's say your Runestaff currently holds four 1st, three 2nd, and two 3rd level spells at varying numbers of uses/day. You want to meditate for it to become a nearly identical item, only changing what spells it contains. Those spells are all at the same level as the ones already on it, with the same uses/day, and thus the item you wish it to become is the exact same price as the item it already is. That means you sacrifice 0 gp into it during that sitting, so technically you can perform this modification with zero days of meditation. Even if you consider the minimum to be one day, it's 8 hours of that one day, which will still leave quite a few hours afterward on that same day to get some adventuring in.

A Consecrated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/consecrate.htm) area is easy enough to get, especially if you take five levels of Sacred Exorcist. While you do have to be good aligned to take Ancestral Relic, you don't have to be Exalted, which means you can occasionally bend your morals without jeopardizing your signature item. On top of that, since it is most definitely a quarterstaff, you can also add charges of whatever spells you want (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs) onto it in addition to the spells it grants for being a Runestaff, and it will be at about 3/8 the normal price with a four person party.

[Spuddles]

Dragonwrought kobold is worth pointing out- dragontype gets you white dragon wyrmling which is great to alter self into, immunity to aging penalties, sleep, and paralysis, dragonblood subtype or whatever which makes some rotd spells even better, and most importantly- access to greater ritual of free sorcerer level. Google races of the dragon web enhancement.

Some other neat tricks-
A bloodline feat from dragon magazine and/or mother cyst from libris mortis gets you a free preset spell added to your spells known for each level of spell. Grab apprentice from dmg2 to gain the ability to swap a spell everytime you gain a new spell level. This basically gives you 9 free spells.

You can do the same thing with the swap spells out every level, two levels lower than your highest, too. Swap out higher ones than you should be able to, using heigten spell and versatile spell caster. Versatile spellcaster is another very decent feat.

If you undergo the ritual of the blot, you can take one permanent point of con drain to gain the bonus feat cerebrosis. This adds about 11 spells to your spells known. All interesting and flavorful spells, nothing too powerful. Includes aoe fear, several summoning spells, a dimension door/teleport, a finger of death, and several others. You can find the dragon magazine it's from if your google-fu is any good.

The fluff is pretty easy to justify for all this stuff- power mad kobold sorcerer on quest to gain forbidden lore with powerful mentor (apprentice, mother cyst, cerebrosis, sand shaper).

I'll mention sandshaper again, for the metric ton of spells it adds to spells known. The level loss really hurts on a sorcerer, but cheesewrought can help mitigate that.

Look at the spark/magic blooded and unseelie fey templates. Both are la 0, but add +2 cha and are stackable. Unseelie fey can also give wings and comes with a ridiculous racial (cha penalty to saves aura, dispel on a touch, among others).

Lesser half giant with the primordial giant templat comes with it will invisibility and +4 cha/+4 int. from the back of expanded psionics (or complete?) and secrets of xendrik, respectively.

One note on spell selection- summon monster can be really useful, as it gives you access to a broader range of spells. Just be aware that spells summoned creatures cast end when the summoned creature returns to its home plane.

There is a spectacular catalogue of every fiend published and how to gain access to it. Familiarize yourself with the summoned monsters available, so you know which levels to pick up. Summon monster 7 has the bone devil, with at will wall of ice and fly. Handy. SM4 has summon melphit(any) which has a lot of options, beyond core. This gets you access to glitterdust (for hiding creatures, invis, not the blind), gust of wind (great vs swarms & gasses/fog effects), and some others. You can use the apprentice/versatile spellcaster trick to swap out summon monster for higher level, more relevant ones as you level.

Remember, summon monster 7 is to get you access to a dozen lower level utility spells.

Finally, rashemi elemental summoning and/or vanilla storm elementals gets you decent to almost broken blasting. Better on a druid because earlier access to elementals, but what are you going to do.

[Vizzerdrix]

I've had amazing success with Sorcerer/ Mage of the Arcane Order. The only down side is you have to light a few feats on fire and kick them still screaming into a ditch, but the tasty, tasty versatility is so worth it and you loose no caster levels to get it. (Side note: Dread Necromancers can get down right terrifying with MotAO.)

Your familiar is a dirty, dirty trap. Drop that chump for the ability to make metamagic not suck. Of course that means Int isn't as much of a dump stat anymore, but oh well. Metamagic is good on a sorcerer. Heighten alone lets yer lower level spells stay relevant much later.

Reserve feats are handy and give you enough staying power to make a
warlock blush.

Spuddles: You are amazing for mentioning cerebrosis. :smallsmile:

[Spuddles]

Familiars are actually pretty useful at low levels with benign transposition, especially flying familiars. Risky, though.

You can always pick a familiar up later with obtain familiar, but sorcerers are sort of feat starved.

One thing that can make MotAO a little more worth it is picking up Magical Training instead of Arcane Preparation. Apparently Rules Compendium lets you make spellcraft checks to put more spells in your spell book. Then use versatile spellcaster to have spontaneous access to things like teleport, overland flight, or phantom steed. I suppose at that point, MotAO is a bit redundant.

Arcane Preparation & Magical Training gets you wizardliness without being a wizard.

[Ansem]

Familiars are actually pretty useful at low levels with benign transposition, especially flying familiars. Risky, though.

You can always pick a familiar up later with obtain familiar, but sorcerers are sort of feat starved.

One thing that can make MotAO a little more worth it is picking up Magical Training instead of Arcane Preparation. Apparently Rules Compendium lets you make spellcraft checks to put more spells in your spell book. Then use versatile spellcaster to have spontaneous access to things like teleport, overland flight, or phantom steed. I suppose at that point, MotAO is a bit redundant.

Arcane Preparation & Magical Training gets you wizardliness without being a wizard.
I can't find in the feat description or the Rules Compendium what you're saying.
Would you care to be a bit specific?
Rules Compendium states that to learn a new spell from a spellbook or scroll you need a DC 15+spell level, but the following page says quite specifically this doesn't apply to Sorcerers:
LEARNING NEW SPELLS
Spontaneous casters gain spells by attaining levels in their
class. They never gain spells any other way. When your
spontaneous spellcaster gains a new level, consult the
class table that details the number of spells the character
knows. Select new spells known to fill your repertoire
according to the restrictions for your class. Some spontaneous
spellcasters know only a specific list of spells,
and know all those spells, while others can choose with
more f lexibility.
I'd love to use your idea though, if you could explain how it works.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I can't find in the feat description or the Rules Compendium what you're saying.
Would you care to be a bit specific?
Rules Compendium states that to learn a new spell from a spellbook or scroll you need a DC 15+spell level, but the following page says quite specifically this doesn't apply to Sorcerers:

I'd love to use your idea though, if you could explain how it works.

The feat Magical Training (PGtF) gives you a spellbook which you've already put several 0-level spells in just as a Wizard does, and it gives you spell slots to prepare and cast those spells. He was referring to Rules Compendium page 160:


ADDING SPELLS TO A SPELLBOOK
Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add new spells to their
spellbooks through several methods.

Magical Training makes it so you're now a spellcaster who uses a spellbook, and this blanket statement in Rules Compendium makes it so you can undoubtedly add new spells to it. The sections after the above often refer to 'learning' spells, thus any spell in your spellbook is a spell your character has learned and now knows. The feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including these spells you've learned and placed in your spellbook. A shrewd DM would make you have the spellbook open to the spell in question to cast it, severely limiting this trick's usefulness in combat, but it still adds unmatched versatility to any spontaneous caster.

[Tvtyrant]

A really good Sorc guide would have all of the different things you need as a caster and then a rundown of which spells cover the most of them. The Heart of Line, and polymorph spells are particularly good for covering lots of areas.

[NeoPhoenix0]

My personal favorite prestige class for sorcerers is Wild Mage (complete arcane). Combine with the feat Practiced Spellcaster (complete arcane).