Free Checks

[javijuji]

It is my understanding that the players (and the mobs) get free spot checks until one of them notices the other. After this the group that noticed the other group reacts accordingly (Hiding and stuff if it is a group of bandits)and they get to do what ever they please and the group that hasnt noticed anything keeps rolling spot until they spot them or the other group decides to start a fight with a suprise round. So It is my job as DM to give the players free spot checks everytime a monster is on a "viewing distance" or are they supposed to call it?

Example: Group of bandits at 200 feet. The party rolls 15, 16, 4, and 19. Substracting the -20 because of 200 feet distance no one in the group notices the enemy. Now the enemy is waiting by the road so one of them is taking a 20 on spot. So he notices a group approaching and tells the others. (If it were the opposite scenario how good should the descrption be considering it is only a spot 5 when you substract the -20?). The bandits hide using rolls since they cant take a 10 in this stressfull situation. They hide with 15, 16, 18, and 13. Now here comes the tricky part. Not only are they like 130 feet away now they are also hiding. So even at max rolls the party wont notice the bandits. Another round passes and the bandits unsheathe their bows, do they have to recheck their hides? Im guessing now the party gets another spot check cause a round has passes. The DC to notice the bandits is still pretty high. Its a 60 feet distance so -6 and the lowest hide check is 13 so someone has to roll 19 to be able to notice them right? Now if at this point the party didnt notice them im guessing the bandits can either open fire on them with a suprise volley of arrows or wait for them to get even closer if they wish to melee them.

Im hoping im doing this right. Otherwise please correct me. Also what part do listen checks play here? Does the party get free listen + spot each round?

[mattie_p]

You are doing it mostly correct, the problem is that the rules on spot are borked.

It is known that by RAW, it is impossible to see the sun or moon.

If you need to continue down the RAW path, did you give the PCs a bonus (or the bandits a penalty) for having more than one bandit in a group? (Where is that rule? I know you are in there somewhere) Are you following the rules for encounter distance? No spot checks are possible outside of that range.

[javijuji]

How do you manage spot checks? I've had my doubts with it. In a dungeon for example. A player can easily spot into a room and see the creatures inside of it unless they are hiding. Do you normally give free spot checks or do you wait for your players to call them on your own?

[TuggyNE]

Now the enemy is waiting by the road so one of them is taking a 20 on spot.

That doesn't work very well, since taking 20 mechanically represents methodically going from 1 to 20 on each step; as such, if you "take 20" on an opposed check like Spot, you're going to fail the first ones. Also, there's no particular way to synchronize it, so there's no real way to be sure that your high "rolls" come when you need them.

TL/DR: Don't take 20 on opposed rolls, that's not how they work.

[mattie_p]

OK, so the stuff I was looking for isn't in 3.5 anymore, it is in my 3.0 DMG. Still good stuff, if you can get a hold of it.

Here's a good thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235702) to help advise you on a way to go about it.

The way I do it depends. If I have a dedicated scout in the party I calculate DCs (both ways, the scout is usually sneaking) and calculate in advance of the session for several different possible encounters. If I don't, I roll on the spot and see what happens, with modifiers for terrain, lighting, etc.

[Slipperychicken]

How do you manage spot checks? I've had my doubts with it. In a dungeon for example. A player can easily spot into a room and see the creatures inside of it unless they are hiding. Do you normally give free spot checks or do you wait for your players to call them on your own?

Spot checks are reflexive, just like Sense Motive checks. Any time there's something notable but difficult to see (usually when it's hidden), everyone gets a Spot check to notice it. Any time someone tries to deceive people with their words, all listeners get a Sense Motive check to determine how convinced they are.

A player can announce a check to examine his surroundings. He might say something like "I look around the room from the doorway", and then he would roll a Spot check to notice non-obvious things in the room. There is, however, no check required to notice things which are in plain view and not hidden.

[javijuji]

Spot checks are reflexive, just like Sense Motive checks. Any time there's something notable but difficult to see (usually when it's hidden), everyone gets a Spot check to notice it. Any time someone tries to deceive people with their words, all listeners get a Sense Motive check to determine how convinced they are.

A player can announce a check to examine his surroundings. He might say something like "I look around the room from the doorway", and then he would roll a Spot check to notice non-obvious things in the room. There is, however, no check required to notice things which are in plain view and not hidden.

Does the same apply to Listen checks?

[Slipperychicken]

Does the same apply to Listen checks?

Yes. When there's something to hear, people make Listen checks to determine if they noticed it. When someone uses Move Silently, everyone in the vicinity makes Listen checks to hear him. Of course, you only need to roll Spot or Listen checks when it's worth rolling (use your judgement). You may also assume that characters are Taking 10 on their rolls, which can be nice if you don't want to alert the players with sounds of rolling dice :smallamused:

When making rolls outside of combat, remember that characters may Take 10 on all skill and ability checks, including Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently. This is strongly advisable when a character will succeed the check on a 10 (such as remembering common knowledge, whose DC is 10).

[javijuji]

Does a character have to reroll hide and move silently everytime he moves?

[Slipperychicken]

Does a character have to reroll hide and move silently everytime he moves?

It makes intuitive sense to do so, although in some situations may lead to excessive or pointless rolling. It may be advisable to assume everyone who isn't threatened or distracted Takes 10, just to cut down on the rolling.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You are doing it mostly correct, the problem is that the rules on spot are borked.

It is known that by RAW, it is impossible to see the sun or moon.

If you need to continue down the RAW path, did you give the PCs a bonus (or the bandits a penalty) for having more than one bandit in a group? (Where is that rule? I know you are in there somewhere) Are you following the rules for encounter distance? No spot checks are possible outside of that range.

Unless the sun/moon are a creature or character you don't need to roll spot to see them. Besides they also should be actively trying to hide themselves in order to warrant a spot check.



Check
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

[nedz]

It makes intuitive sense to do so, although in some situations may lead to excessive or pointless rolling. It may be advisable to assume everyone who isn't threatened or distracted Takes 10, just to cut down on the rolling.

this, but also if you force lots of rolls then it is much more likely that the spotter will roll high against a low roll from the hider: Ambushes will never occur.

Using the take 10 method can also allow you to determine when the scout spots the trap, if he was always going to. You can do this by comparing the results and working out the distance modifier in reverse. This gives you the initial distance for the encounter.
Eg Hide is 25, Spot is 20+10 = the hider is spotted when the distance/terrain modifier is -5.

[mattie_p]

Unless the sun/moon are a creature or character you don't need to roll spot to see them. Besides they also should be actively trying to hide themselves in order to warrant a spot check.

I'll post the same quote as you, but bold some different parts.


Spot (Wis)
Check
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

Also:
{table]Difficulty(DC)|Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0)|Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)[/table]

Now apply modifiers for distance... 93 million miles x 5280 feet/mile x -1 to check/10 feet = -49 billion and change to your spot check

[TypoNinja]

That doesn't work very well, since taking 20 mechanically represents methodically going from 1 to 20 on each step; as such, if you "take 20" on an opposed check like Spot, you're going to fail the first ones. Also, there's no particular way to synchronize it, so there's no real way to be sure that your high "rolls" come when you need them.

TL/DR: Don't take 20 on opposed rolls, that's not how they work.

Correction, you aren't allowed to take a 20 on an opposed roll at all.

Also, taking a 20 takes 20 times as long. Are your bandits taking one step every two minutes?

This is a pretty common mix up in my experience, between taking a 10 and a 20.

Proceeding cautiously, all due deliberation, and what not is taking a 10. Taking a 20 is repeating the task over and over again until you get it just perfect.

Think of it this way;

Rolling for it is when you are rushed and/or distracted and its gotta get done now.

Taking a 10 is your average competence at something when you aren't getting rushed. A Guard or Sentry on duty who's actually paying attention will be taking a 10.

Taking a 20 is trying the same thing over and over and over until you've gotten it just right. It took 20 times as long, 20 times as much effort, but you've got a perfect example of that skill. A siege engineer, examining a fortress through a spyglass trying to spot a weakness he can exploit will be taking a 20. He's going to pour over every inch, more than once, and take his sweet time looking for everything.

Also, spot rules break down pretty fast past around 50 feet or so. If you want to stick to them, I highly recommend houseruling up some extra modifiers to a roll, because technically your party can't see that city of 50,000 people they've been approaching, or that mountain taking up the horizon, and no you can't see the moon either.

Finally, you should be asking your players for spot checks (or rolling in secret if you want and just telling them what they notice). Spot is what they can notice, Search is what they go looking for.

[TuggyNE]

Correction, you aren't allowed to take a 20 on an opposed roll at all.

Yeah, I was just trying to explain why you can't in understated language.

[Killer Angel]

I'll post the same quote as you, but bold some different parts.
(snip)
Now apply modifiers for distance... 93 million miles x 5280 feet/mile x -1 to check/10 feet = -49 billion and change to your spot check

:smallamused:



Check
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

The moon isn't intentionally hiding, but it's difficult to see? that's the requirement for the "need to roll".
Anyway, while "difficult to see" is a DM's call, it remains the fact that the moon is not a creature.
By RAW, you don't need to roll a spot check.

[Deophaun]

Now apply modifiers for distance... 93 million miles x 5280 feet/mile x -1 to check/10 feet = -49 billion and change to your spot checkNow apply modifiers for size, and a circumstance bonus for the fact that it's a giant ball of incandescent gas that's providing 99.9999% of the available light, and you can counteract that penalty no problem.

Correction, you aren't allowed to take a 20 on an opposed roll at all.
Not entirely true. Disguise and Hide checks are opposed rolls, and it is possible to take 20 if you have the time (an average of around 7 hours for a Disguise check).

[Ashtagon]

Way I handle it...

Both sides make Perception checks. Apply modifiers as appropriate to the situation. The result is checked off against a table or conversion factor to determine the distance at which your group would notice the other group. The group with the higher result spots the others first; the lower result is now ignored for all purposes. The winning group could launch a surprise attack, open talks, skulk off, or whatever.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've always run it such that you only get one reflexive spot or listen for every time the creature stealthing toward you takes a move action. That's once every 15 feet, typically.

If, however, you're moving and he's not then there is no listen check and you only get one spot check in the moment LoS is created. If you don't make that one you just plain don't see him until and unless you move to a point where he no longer has concealment relative to you.

I feel this is an accurate representation of how extraordinarily difficult it is to slink up on someone Vs how extraordinarily easy it is to overlook something that's blending in and immobile.

I also handle all opposed stealth V perception checks in secret.

(players are asked to make a handful of d20 rolls before the session begins. These are recorded and applied, in the order they were rolled, to secret checks and rolls. A similar set of randomly pregenerated numbers is made for the enemy's rolls. My former group found this to be both fair and great for verisimilitude.)

[TuggyNE]

Now apply modifiers for size, and a circumstance bonus for the fact that it's a giant ball of incandescent gas that's providing 99.9999% of the available light, and you can counteract that penalty no problem.

I ran the numbers a while back; size doesn't even vaguely counteract the penalties. (It handles maybe 5% of them or less, if memory serves.) As far as being a light source... well, just what are the rules for spotting light sources? To the best of my knowledge there aren't any specifically.

It's pretty lousy. The only reason I didn't work up actual homebrew for this is because a) it would be tedious to calculate this stuff at the table; b) no one really cares.

[TypoNinja]

:smallamused:



The moon isn't intentionally hiding, but it's difficult to see? that's the requirement for the "need to roll".
Anyway, while "difficult to see" is a DM's call, it remains the fact that the moon is not a creature.
By RAW, you don't need to roll a spot check.

Except the SRD gives skill examples, and the example for a DC 0 is


Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)

Add a -16 for colossal, and plus several billion to the DC for distance.

Spot rules break down outside of combat range, we know this. I made fun of them in the dysfunctional rules thread. The main problem is that the distance penalty is uncapped, but the size penalty does have a limit, so very large objects very far away are unrealistically hard to spot. Your average 1st level adventurer can't see Mount Everest if he's more than 500 feet away from it under the spot rules.

I recommend ignoring spot rules all together and just making a decision of how far out you want your party to see things like terrain features, cities, and other similarly large objects.

[Killer Angel]

Except the SRD gives skill examples, and the example for a DC 0 is
"Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)"


...yeah, "something" can be referred to objects, but that table is listed in the general use of the skills, and the DC listed are settled "using the skill rules as a guideline".
It's a generic guideline, so specific trumps general, and in the description of the spot skill (specific), it talks about creatures. So, no moon.



I recommend ignoring spot rules all together and just making a decision of how far out you want your party to see things like terrain features, cities, and other similarly large objects.

Obviously, I agree. My point is not that spot rules by RAW aren't silly, but that the moon is not a valid example of the RAW silliness.

[Eldan]

I ran the numbers a while back; size doesn't even vaguely counteract the penalties. (It handles maybe 5% of them or less, if memory serves.) As far as being a light source... well, just what are the rules for spotting light sources? To the best of my knowledge there aren't any specifically.

It's pretty lousy. The only reason I didn't work up actual homebrew for this is because a) it would be tedious to calculate this stuff at the table; b) no one really cares.
It becomes especially fun once you try to spot a lit candle in a dark room. The diminutive size already makes it almost impossible to see the candle flame.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a light source can be seen from 6 times its bright light radius before distance penalties start. So 30 feet away from a lit candle you can spot it as though it were an unlit candle less than 10 feet away.

I think maybe it was in Underdark (?)

[TuggyNE]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a light source can be seen from 6 times its bright light radius before distance penalties start. So 30 feet away from a lit candle you can spot it as though it were an unlit candle less than 10 feet away.

I think maybe it was in Underdark (?)

Hmm. That would be ... not entirely unreasonable, I suppose, as a first approximation. (It's safe to say that the sun's bright light radius extends well beyond one AU.)

[javijuji]

How do you resolve encounters inside a dungeon then? Is it assumed the players can see as far as they have light? What about characters with darkvision? I feel that skipping spot checks will lead to simply rolling initiative in every encounter since the players and the mobs simply "run into each other". Is that how its supposed to work?

[Deophaun]

How do you resolve encounters inside a dungeon then? Is it assumed the players can see as far as they have light?
Yes.

What about characters with darkvision?
Darkvision has a range (30', 60', etc). Anything beyond that, you don't see.

I feel that skipping spot checks will lead to simply rolling initiative in every encounter since the players and the mobs simply "run into each other". Is that how its supposed to work?
In my experience, encounters in dungeons begin with listen checks, not spot.

[elonin]

I understand the distances involved with spotting the sun and moon. Were the modifiers for size and being a light source get added into this? Also, were the calculations done when at apoge or paroge?

[TuggyNE]

I understand the distances involved with spotting the sun and moon. Were the modifiers for size and being a light source get added into this? Also, were the calculations done when at apoge or paroge?

Size yes, light source no (given that I was unaware of the rules for that at the time), and I largely ignored the paltry 5.0 gigameters* in difference between aphelion and perihelion.

Here's the way I drafted it:

Some preliminary calculations: The sun (in our own universe) is 1,392,000 km in diameter, or 4.56692913E+9 feet, according to Wikipedia. Size categories double their minimum required lengths at each step; therefore, the sun is just over 26 size categories over Colossal. Hide check penalties go up by -4 by each step, according to Table: Creature Size and Scale (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat), so it takes a net -120 penalty to hide. The earth is about 4.90806662E+11 feet from the sun (using Bing to convert 1 AU to feet), and at a penalty to Spot checks of -1 per 10 feet, you get a penalty of 49080666200, offset by -120 to hide, for a net of a DC 49080666080 Spot check to detect the sun, give or take a few thousand for orbital variation.

I'd actually forgotten how stupid the whole "linear penalties for quadratic size increases" thing really is. Ah well.

*About 3 million miles.

[Deophaun]

Size categories double their minimum required lengths at each step;
Where do you get that?
Medium: 1X1.
Large: 2X2
Huge: 3X3
Gigantic: 4X4
Colossal: 6X6

[Kelb_Panthera]

Where do you get that?
Medium: 1X1.
Large: 2X2
Huge: 3X3
Gigantic: 4X4
Colossal: 6X6

I suspect table 2-4 on DMG page 29 may have something to do with it.

[TuggyNE]

Where do you get that?
Medium: 1X1.
Large: 2X2
Huge: 3X3
Gigantic: 4X4
Colossal: 6X6

I forget exactly but I was probably working off e.g. enlarge person, expansion.

It doesn't materially affect the results, though; even if a size category bump is only 1.5 times as large instead of 2, it's still a geometric progression with a linear penalty. -120, or -180, or whatever, it's still basically nothing.