Pathfinder: The feats keep getting weirder

[subject42]

After a previous thread about Vital Strike, I really started digging in to Pathfinder feats. Some of them are really, really strange. For example, what in the world spawned Supernal Feast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/supernal-feast)?



Supernal Feast

You sup on the blood of your ancestors to fuel your fury.

Prerequisites: Con 15, aasimar.

Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to a good outsider that takes bleed or blood drain damage, you gain 1 temporary hit point as you bathe in the celestial being's gore. Furthermore, as a full-round action, you can feast on the fallen body of a good outsider that has been dead no longer than 24 hours. When you do, you regain 1 temporary hit point per Hit Die the outsider possessed at a rate of 1 hit point per minute. Temporary hit points gained from this feat last 1d4 hours.



The scions of pure good are cannibal fetishists? Huh?

[Dusk Eclipse]

What. The. Hell?

[vasharanpaladin]

...I love being Good. :smalleek:

[Juntao112]

And it's not even good.

[Slipperychicken]

{Scrubbed}

[Acanous]

I...think that's supposed to be a feat that Evil Aasimar characters take.

There's ones on the opposite end of the spectrum for Tieflings, giving them combat bonuses against Evil.

[Juntao112]

{Scrubbed}

Oh, right. Communion.

[subject42]

This one doesn't have the WTF quotient of Supernal Feast, but it also seems to be gloriously useless 90% of the time. I present for your enjoyment: Orc Weapon Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/orc-weapon-expertise-combat-orc).

This one doesn't seem too bad, except there's only one published weapon (to my knowledge), that meets the requirements: the Orc double axe. It seems like a pretty roundabout way of making something worse than weapon specialization.

[NamelessNPC]

Now that they fixed Prone Shooter, that is probably in the bottom 3 feats ever

[subject42]

Even better is the feat Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general).



Bewildering Koan

You can pose unanswerable questions that leave creatures momentarily dumbfounded as they dwell on their significance.

Prerequisites: Bluff 1 rank, ki pool class feature, gnome.

Benefit: As a swift action, spend 1 point from your ki pool and make a Bluff check by asking a creature one of the impossible questions you ponder when meditating.

If the creature fails its check*, you choose whether it loses its next action or you gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make against that creature for 1 round.


With the monk ability tongue of the sun and moon, you could use this to stop a charging horse by asking it a really profound question.

[Wyntonian]

Even better is the feat Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general).



With the monk ability tongue of the sun and moon, you could use this to stop a charging horse by asking it a really profound question.


Oh my god I must use this every chance I get.

[Slipperychicken]

Even better is the feat Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general).

With the monk ability tongue of the sun and moon, you could use this to stop a charging horse by asking it a really profound question.

Wait, why can only a Gnome do this?

[Doorhandle]

Wait, why can only a Gnome do this?

The other species are too focused on trying to SOLVE these koans. :smalltongue:

Also, It says Ki-pool and not "a monk's Ki-pool," so you could play a ninja and start doing this from level 2-3 onwards.

[TheTick]

Oh my god I must use this every chance I get.

Yeah, I have my next character concept.

[avr]

Gnomes can get Speak with Animals as a racial ability, they don't need to wait for Tongue of Sun and Moon to bewilder horses. I can't believe I just wrote that.

[hiryuu]

Gnomes can get Speak with Animals as a racial ability, they don't need to wait for Tongue of Sun and Moon to bewilder horses. I can't believe I just wrote that.

I think that's part of the point. The Jade Emperor could bewilder animals, and there are stories of people posing questions to mountains who couldn't answer their dilemmas.

You know what feat weirds me out? Childlike. The implications are a bit squicky.

[Baroncognito]

Wait, why can only a Gnome do this?

Humans can do it too if they take the "Racial Heritage" feat and select Gnome.

[Doorhandle]

Gnomes can get Speak with Animals as a racial ability, they don't need to wait for Tongue of Sun and Moon to bewilder horses. I can't believe I just wrote that.

...Gentlemen. I do believe I have my next character concept.

[Pandiano]

...Gentlemen. I do believe I have my next character concept.

Why do I sense an unholy amount of Philosoraptor quotes ahead?

[Axier]

You know what feat weirds me out? Childlike. The implications are a bit squicky.

It gets pretty neat if you ask me. No one expects the child of murderous homocide!

[Person_Man]

Even better is the feat Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general).

"loses its next action"

What exactly does that mean? Do they lose their entire turn? If their next "action" would have been a swift action, do they lose that? What about an attack action? An attack of opportunity? They're all "actions." Is there any guidance or FAQ on this?

If the answer is that the enemy loses it's entire turn, then that's one of the most powerful abilities I've ever seen. You could basically lock down a BBEG every turn as a Swift Action. That's crazy.

[Eldan]

I don't know, but at some point, I want to play a party of five gnome monks.

Whenever you fight a singular BBEG, four of you Koan him every round, while the fifth starts punching him.

[subject42]

If the answer is that the enemy loses it's entire turn, then that's one of the most powerful abilities I've ever seen. You could basically lock down a BBEG every turn as a Swift Action. That's crazy.

That's how I've been interpreting it, since it is limited by the size of the character's Ki pool.

That said, PF has had ambiguous wordings that aren't interpreted in a manner favorable to the player before.

[OracleofWuffing]

Why do I sense an unholy amount of Philosoraptor quotes ahead?
... That's not a koan at all! :smallmad:


What exactly does that mean? Do they lose their entire turn? If their next "action" would have been a swift action, do they lose that? What about an attack action? An attack of opportunity? They're all "actions." Is there any guidance or FAQ on this?
Those, however, could be. :smallbiggrin:

[Wyntonian]

To quote (poorly, I'm away from the book) one of my new favorite poets:


Two monks were on a train.
One said to the other: The train moves, while the land stays in place.
The other said: Nay, the land moves, while the train stays still.
Monk Dachi walked up and asked: Would I look good in short shorts?

Or better yet:



Gnome monk: Hey, what's the capital of Thailand?
Charging ogre: Uh.... I dunno?
Gnome monk: BANGKOK!

[Zherog]

After a previous thread about Vital Strike, I really started digging in to Pathfinder feats. Some of them are really, really strange. For example, what in the world spawned Supernal Feast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/supernal-feast)?



Even better is the feat Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general).



Could somebody give me the sourcebook for these? d20pfsrd.com is blocked here at work...

[subject42]

Supernal Feast: Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels

Bewildering Koan: Pathfinder Companion: Gnomes of Golarion

[Zherog]

Thanks .

[SimonMoon6]

there are stories of people posing questions to mountains who couldn't answer their dilemmas.

Just wondering:

Has a mountain *ever* answered someone's question? Does it really take a genius to come up with a question that a mountain won't answer?

[Person_Man]

OK, to answer my own question, I dug up this forum quote (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8dmh/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Companion-Gnomes-of-Golarion#72) by Sean K Reynolds, the head Designer.

"Bluff is always an opposed check against the target's Sense Motive check.
If the target fails, it loses its next turn."

So Bewildering Koan is arguably one of the most powerful Feats in Pathfinder.

[hiryuu]

Just wondering:

Has a mountain *ever* answered someone's question? Does it really take a genius to come up with a question that a mountain won't answer?

Think animistically. Do not think of the mountain as a giant rock. Think of it as the representation on Earth of a celestial entity who is wise enough to manage the idea of that mountain.

[nedz]

This one doesn't have the WTF quotient of Supernal Feast, but it also seems to be gloriously useless 90% of the time. I present for your enjoyment: Orc Weapon Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/orc-weapon-expertise-combat-orc).

This one doesn't seem too bad, except there's only one published weapon (to my knowledge), that meets the requirements: the Orc double axe. It seems like a pretty roundabout way of making something worse than weapon specialization.

Well Disrupter might be OK ?
I don't play PF: so is -3 Concentration a big deal ?

[Larpus]

Well Disrupter might be OK ?
I don't play PF: so is -3 Concentration a big deal ?
Pretty neat (considering you do get to the stinky caster), Concentration is an ability check in PF.

Case in point remains that there's only one "orc" weapon.

If it were expanded to "any weapon that an orc-blooded character can get access to without class abilities" (such as falchion), then things start to get interesting.

[Lord_Gareth]

Well Disrupter might be OK ?
I don't play PF: so is -3 Concentration a big deal ?

Well, the question remains: how did you get close enough to make Disrupter function?

[Menteith]

OK, to answer my own question, I dug up this forum quote (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8dmh/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Companion-Gnomes-of-Golarion#72) by Sean K Reynolds, the head Designer.

"Bluff is always an opposed check against the target's Sense Motive check.
If the target fails, it loses its next turn."

So Bewildering Koan is arguably one of the most powerful Feats in Pathfinder.

I really wish that I was surprised by the PFer development team when they do stuff like this.

[Phelix-Mu]

After a previous thread about Vital Strike, I really started digging in to Pathfinder feats. Some of them are really, really strange. For example, what in the world spawned Supernal Feast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/supernal-feast)?

The scions of pure good are cannibal fetishists? Huh?

I just about fell over laughing when I read this feat. Hilarious. I'm picturing the circumstances where this is useful, and I love it.

Female Aasimar to Vampire Husband: "Honey, I thought we discussed this. Don't order angels for dinner without me. It's not fair. I'm hungry too!"

Blood-soaked vampire: "Sorry?"

And, it really doesn't say anything about having to be evil? Cause you could just be like the aasimar personification of bad luck, all your celestial allies die horribly time after time. Waste not, want not!

[Sith_Happens]

OK, to answer my own question, I dug up this forum quote (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8dmh/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Companion-Gnomes-of-Golarion#72) by Sean K Reynolds, the head Designer.

"Bluff is always an opposed check against the target's Sense Motive check.
If the target fails, it loses its next turn."

So Bewildering Koan is arguably one of the most powerful Feats in Pathfinder.

I forget, are there still people claiming that Pathfinder is more balanced than 3.5?

[TuggyNE]

OK, to answer my own question, I dug up this forum quote (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8dmh/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Companion-Gnomes-of-Golarion#72) by Sean K Reynolds, the head Designer.

"Bluff is always an opposed check against the target's Sense Motive check.
If the target fails, it loses its next turn."

So Bewildering Koan is arguably one of the most powerful Feats in Pathfinder.

So, which is worse: 3.5 RAW as expounded by rules lawyers, or PF RAI as expounded by the designers?

:smallyuk:

[Acanous]

I forget, are there still people claiming that Pathfinder is more balanced than 3.5?

I can name 4 off the top of my head.

[subject42]

I forget, are there still people claiming that Pathfinder is more balanced than 3.5?

I think the main selling point is that Pathfinder requires a little less at-the-table math than 3.5, due to things like consolidated skills, HP-->BAB linking, and (arguably) CMB/CMD.

You'd have to be out of your mind to say it's balanced.


Back to the topic at hand, is anyone interested in some weaponized racism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)?

[Phelix-Mu]

Back to the topic at hand, is anyone interested in some weaponized racism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)?

I love this. I can picture some fun with some half-possessed gnome warlock-esque type that likes to blow raspberries at passing half-orcs in the marketplace. Good for suicidal-type crazy character designs. Definitely not a role play to invite the children to sit in on.

[TiaC]

Here are two rather useless feats.

Elephant Stomp (Combat)

You deliver a crushing blow to downed enemies.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, Improved Overrun, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone, you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space) and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action.

Normal: When your overrun maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and she is knocked prone.
It allows you to jump through a bunch of hoops to do something you could have done anyway.

Combat Distraction (Goblin)
Anyone who attacks you while you act like a lunatic exposes themselves to brutal counterattacks from your allies.

Prerequisite: Goblin, Acrobatics 1 rank, Escape Artist 1 rank.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can choose to do something that seems to serve no useful purpose. Example actions could include laughing at another creature’s misfortune, rooting in your pockets for a snack, bending over to pick up what looks like a weird bug, or trying to fly into the air by flapping your arms like a sea gull. Although you’re acting like a lunatic, your unpredictable actions are distracting. Any creature other than a goblin within 5 feet of you takes a –2 penalty on Perception checks and concentration checks for as long as you continue to be a distraction and remain in range. This penalty stacks with other goblins performing combat distractions, as long as you’re both adjacent to the distracted target.
This allows you to completely waste your action while in melee with an enemy. Even if you are a Wizard with no investment in melee stabbing blindly with a dagger would be better.

[Slipperychicken]

This allows you to completely waste your action while in melee with an enemy. Even if you are a Wizard with no investment in melee stabbing blindly with a dagger would be better.

I think it exists so DMs can sort-of justify silly Goblin antics. The race was pretty much designed to not be taken seriously.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think it exists so DMs can sort-of justify silly Goblin antics. The race was pretty much designed to not be taken seriously.

That's why you intersperse disguised blues among the normal goblin population. Hehehe, they aren't very serious until some goblin psion decerebrates your character.

[The Glyphstone]

OK, to answer my own question, I dug up this forum quote (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8dmh/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Companion-Gnomes-of-Golarion#72) by Sean K Reynolds, the head Designer.

"Bluff is always an opposed check against the target's Sense Motive check.
If the target fails, it loses its next turn."

So Bewildering Koan is arguably one of the most powerful Feats in Pathfinder.

Friends don't let friends quote SKR.

[Surrealistik]

Even better is the feat Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general).

With the monk ability tongue of the sun and moon, you could use this to stop a charging horse by asking it a really profound question.

I don't play Pathfinder at all, but now I think I'm going to have to.

[Person_Man]

I know a number of different people who consider PF more balanced then 3.5.

To Pathfinder's credit, they paved over the most obvious problems. Non-caster classes no longer have dead levels. (Although a lot of them are filled with fairly minor abilities). The core races are slightly more balanced. The core spells have fewer combat winning nuclear weapons. It's harder to put together an instant-kill high damage combo. Combat Maneuvers streamline special attacks somewhat, and make Size less important. But like any other game with lots of supplements and lots of freelance writers, lots of weird and/or dramatically more powerful stuff creeps in over time.

And although SKR probably reads everything before it's published, I get the strong sense from reading his posts that he's not a game mechanic at heart. He's an author, a player, a DM, and a businessman. If something feels off, he nerfs it. But he doesn't have a strong written definition of what balance is or should be. And he tends to miss some fairly obvious editing problems because he assumes that other gamers play the game like he does, instead of just reading the RAW text.

The back and forth on Bewildering Koan perfectly illustrates this. SKR reads (and perhaps wrote) the Feat and just assumed people would know that Bluff is opposed by a Sense Motive check even though the text of the Bluff Skill is more complicated then that, and that "loses it's next action" means losing it's next turn, even though many different things are defined as an "action" in the game.

I don't mean any of this as a criticism. I like a lot of things about Pathfinder, and don't like other things. But my personal opinion is that it's basically just an elaborate set of house rules, which are no better or worse then 3.5. Just different.

[subject42]

And although SKR probably reads everything before it's published, I get the strong sense from reading his posts that he's not a game mechanic at heart. He's an author, a player, a DM, and a businessman. If something feels off, he nerfs it. But he doesn't have a strong written definition of what balance is or should be. And he tends to miss some fairly obvious editing problems because he assumes that other gamers play the game like he does, instead of just reading the RAW text.

"Monks may not take improved natural attack" is probably the best example I've seen of that one, although if they're hurling around standard-action mindlocks maybe they don't need it anymore.

[jmelesky]

1- I'll argue that PF is more balanced than 3.5, on the whole (though this, predictably, tends towards imbalance as more books are published)

2- It's not clear to me exactly how a feat which gives an extremely suboptimal character build (a gnome monk that specializes in Bluff? None of those words go together) a significant ability a limited number of times per day suddenly significantly reduces PF's balance.

3- It would be nice to not have to defend PF in half of the PF threads I comment on. In other words, arm-wavey complaints about PF's balance are a bit off-topic for this thread.

4- In consideration of that, I offer the helm-centric feat chain for dwarves. It's a long chain, and probably not worth it, but weird and flavorful: Hard-headed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/hard-headed-combat-dwarf), followed by Dented Helm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/dented-helmet-combat-dwarf), and capping with Cloven Helm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/cloven-helmet-combat-dwarf). Hit people with your head, and get your head in the way if you get hit hard.

[subject42]

It's not clear to me exactly how a feat which gives an extremely suboptimal character build (a gnome monk that specializes in Bluff? None of those words go together) a significant ability a limited number of times per day suddenly significantly reduces PF's balance.

It actually works better for Gnome Ninjas than Gnome monks, since the only requirement is a Ki Pool. The main reason to use a monk is because it's funny to look straight at a charging advanced dire bear and scream:

"WHAT IS THE VALUE OF AN UNCLENCHED FIST HIDDEN IN A TREE?"

[TheTick]

I'm going to start a thread later to come up with those questions. The more ridiculous, the better.

[vhfforever]

Pretty neat (considering you do get to the stinky caster), Concentration is an ability check in PF.

Case in point remains that there's only one "orc" weapon.

If it were expanded to "any weapon that an orc-blooded character can get access to without class abilities" (such as falchion), then things start to get interesting.

I recall there was an "Orcish Shot Put" in 3.0, which was just a huge lead ball. But I don't think it was ever reprinted anywhere.

[Juntao112]

It actually works better for Gnome Ninjas than Gnome monks, since the only requirement is a Ki Pool. The main reason to use a monk is because it's funny to look straight at a charging advanced dire bear and scream:

"WHAT IS THE VALUE OF AN UNCLENCHED FIST HIDDEN IN A TREE?"

I think we may have found Fistbeard Beardfist's best friend.

[jmelesky]

It actually works better for Gnome Ninjas than Gnome monks, since the only requirement is a Ki Pool.

Understood, but still hardly an optimized build.

And, for the record, I'm more likely to use it with a monk/inquisitor build I've been kicking around. Making it a low-charisma gnome will just add to the confusion experienced when it's incredibly effective.

[nightwyrm]

Back to the topic at hand, is anyone interested in some weaponized racism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)?

Wait...does that feat do anything except give your enemies power attack?:smallamused:

[Theoboldi]

Back to the topic at hand, is anyone interested in some weaponized racism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)?

What the...Why would you make your enemies hit you harder? Heck, you can't even use it to make your enemies less likely to hit you, since they can just take the minimum -1 penalty. :smalleek:

On another note, there is a feat that makes you really good at being tortured. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/achievement-feats/endure-pain-zon-kuthon-s-kiss)

[alchemyprime]

I recall there was an "Orcish Shot Put" in 3.0, which was just a huge lead ball. But I don't think it was ever reprinted anywhere.

Oh, man. I still use that weapon. Terrible, I know. But it gives the half-orc and orc barbarians something to do ranged wise without a bow or a gun. And I figure if I have guns, why not shotputs?
Got rid of that crit range though. The 19-20 was stupid for a x3 weapon.
As far as crazy feats go, why not Letter Fury? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/letter-fury-goblin) "NO YOU STEALING WORDS FROM MY HEAD NOOOOO!"

[subject42]

Wait...does that feat do anything except give your enemies power attack?:smallamused:

I think the theory is that you use it on low-BAB targets and dodge a lot. The problem being that low-BAB characters generally have things to do other than attack, and there's no compulsion attached to it.

[jmelesky]

Heck, you can't even use it to make your enemies less likely to hit you, since they can just take the minimum -1 penalty. :smalleek:

Pathfinder Power Attack doesn't have an adjustable penalty. The penalty and bonus both go up at a flat rate related to your BAB.

[Theoboldi]

Pathfinder Power Attack doesn't have an adjustable penalty. The penalty and bonus both go up at a flat rate related to your BAB.

Huh. Well, at least that means it has some use in the right build. Still, improving an enemies power attack just sounds like the most ridiculously dangerous strategy I've ever heard of.

[subject42]

Apparently one of the most important ways to be a good healer in Pathfinder is to hurl yourself off of buildings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/achievement-feats/talmandor-s-lifting).

The logic is both flawless and intuitive.

[Gildedragon]

What in blaze's name... I can't even
This is some weird stuff. I see a lot of use for some of these things, as a DM, to fill up NPC feat slots. Make them memorable but not too powerful. But man are they odd.

Though I do love the koan, I need to convince a monk PC I have to take it

[jmelesky]

If you're a bird man, perhaps you'd rather be a man with a cartoonishly long nose (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/long-nose-form-tengu).

[Person_Man]

Understood, but still hardly an optimized build.

So I'm thinking something like Ninja 2/Paladin 4/Prestige Class X (I have no idea what, I'm terrible with Pathfinder PrC), with Bewildering Koan and Dazing Assault.

Between the Koan and Dazing Assault, you should be able to lock down pretty much anything. Ninja also gives good Skills and a Trick. Paladin gives Cha to Saves and the amazing Smite Evil bonuses. You can invest the rest of your Feats in something other combo, making you a pretty versatile build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Pathfinder prestige clasd are mostly lackluster from whar I recall, and pally got really useful (gone up to tier 3 IIRC) so going pally 18 would br useful. The only problem I would see with that build is that your Ki pool and thus Koan uses will likely be low.

[SowZ]

This one doesn't have the WTF quotient of Supernal Feast, but it also seems to be gloriously useless 90% of the time. I present for your enjoyment: Orc Weapon Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/orc-weapon-expertise-combat-orc).

This one doesn't seem too bad, except there's only one published weapon (to my knowledge), that meets the requirements: the Orc double axe. It seems like a pretty roundabout way of making something worse than weapon specialization.

Well, there is the Orc Crusher. Though that doesn't save the feat by any means. Honestly, I would have no problem with this feat giving ALL the bonus' listed.

[Acanous]

I'd just like to point out in Orc Weapon Expertise:

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one of the benefits below. Whenever you wield a weapon that has “orc” in its name, you gain the benefit you chose so long as you are actually proficient with that weapon.

From Orc
•Weapon Familiarity: Orcs are always proficient with greataxes and falchions, and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.

Later in Orc Weapon Expertise:

This feat has no effect if you are not proficient with the weapon you're using.



....The Prerequisite is Orc. Orcs are automatically proficient in Orc weapons (The whole one).

If you can take the feat, there is no way to be nonproficient with the weapon

So why is that line in there?

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I'd just like to point out in Orc Weapon Expertise:

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one of the benefits below. Whenever you wield a weapon that has “orc” in its name, you gain the benefit you chose so long as you are actually proficient with that weapon.

From Orc
•Weapon Familiarity: Orcs are always proficient with greataxes and falchions, and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.

Later in Orc Weapon Expertise:

This feat has no effect if you are not proficient with the weapon you're using.



....The Prerequisite is Orc. Orcs are automatically proficient in Orc weapons (The whole one).

If you can take the feat, there is no way to be nonproficient with the weapon

So why is that line in there?I could be missing something as I'm not a big Pathfinder player (never really had the opportunity) but isn't it still possible to be nonproficient just by being in a class without martial weapon proficiency? If Familiarity just makes "Orc" weapons martial rather than exotic, a character with only simple weapon proficency still wouldn't be proficient. There's no excuse if it were about greataxes and falchions, but for "orc" weapons it seems fine.

[Blisstake]

I've always been a fan of Arcane School Spirit. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/arcane-school-spirit-general) The name cracks me up, and you basically just cheer how awesome your specialty is.

Gnome feats are weird... in a good way, I think.

[Cambrian]

:This feat has no effect if you are not proficient with the weapon you're using...

If you can take the feat, there is no way to be nonproficient with the weapon

So why is that line in there?
Actually in pathfinder you can trade out racial benefits for other benefits. So it is quite possible to be an orc without the racial weapon proficiencies.

Pathfinder tends to give you many options like that. Its also why there are so many really strange feats. In a lot of adventure paths they make feats, traits, archtypes, etc... To support the theme of the area/adventure. Often in the SRD they seem exceptionally strange because all context is removed.

[navar100]

I'd just like to point out in Orc Weapon Expertise:

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one of the benefits below. Whenever you wield a weapon that has “orc” in its name, you gain the benefit you chose so long as you are actually proficient with that weapon.

From Orc
•Weapon Familiarity: Orcs are always proficient with greataxes and falchions, and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.

Later in Orc Weapon Expertise:

This feat has no effect if you are not proficient with the weapon you're using.



....The Prerequisite is Orc. Orcs are automatically proficient in Orc weapons (The whole one).

If you can take the feat, there is no way to be nonproficient with the weapon

So why is that line in there?

Racial Heritage feat. Humans can take this feat to count as another race for purposes of taking traits, other feats, and how spells and magic items affect you.

[subject42]

Paladin gives Cha to Saves and the amazing Smite Evil bonuses.

If you're willing to give up Smite Evil, why not just a wondrous item of Bestow Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bestow-grace)?

[Person_Man]

Pathfinder prestige clasd are mostly lackluster from whar I recall, and pally got really useful (gone up to tier 3 IIRC) so going pally 18 would br useful. The only problem I would see with that build is that your Ki pool and thus Koan uses will likely be low.

Sad to hear about the lack of PrC. Are there any Pathfinder class synergy Feats in existance?

Also, your Ki pool would continue to increase with your Cha bonus. So if you're playing a Cha based class which invests heavily magic items to improve it (as you would anyway, to improve Smite and Divine Grace and whatnot), you're basically looking at 5ish + character level/3 Ki pool. And presumably you wouldn't waste your Ki pool in every combat, and would only use it for 1-3 rounds on boss enemies. Most combats are only 2-6 rounds long in my experience. If you've locked someone down for even half of that, your party has basically won.

[subject42]

Sad to hear about the lack of PrC. Are there any Pathfinder class synergy Feats in existance?

The only one two I know off off the top of my head are monastic training, which improves monk unarmed damage (pairs nicely with the fighter archetype that also improves unarmed damage), and one for ranger/druid multiclassing. I don't know what it does off the top of my head and can't find it right now.

[Mr Tumnus]

After a previous thread about Vital Strike, I really started digging in to Pathfinder feats. Some of them are really, really strange. For example, what in the world spawned Supernal Feast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/supernal-feast)?




The scions of pure good are cannibal fetishists? Huh?

An Aasimar is descended from a good outsider. Until they take on the physical change I believe fallen angels still have good outsider DNA, despite their alignment being Evil. A bit of a stretch but it's the best I have for a strange and random feat.

The only other alternative I can think of was that they were short feats in the blood of angels book and had too many feats in the blood of fiends book so they just changed a few words without much thought to the implications.

[Blisstake]

So I'm thinking something like Ninja 2/Paladin 4/Prestige Class X (I have no idea what, I'm terrible with Pathfinder PrC), with Bewildering Koan and Dazing Assault.

Between the Koan and Dazing Assault, you should be able to lock down pretty much anything. Ninja also gives good Skills and a Trick. Paladin gives Cha to Saves and the amazing Smite Evil bonuses. You can invest the rest of your Feats in something other combo, making you a pretty versatile build.

Maybe if there was some way to sneak the PrC Champion of Irori in there... That PrC gets some unarmed combat, ki, and paladin scaling (smite, lay on hands), but also gets some really nice abilities that can boost its defense to crazy levels. Oh, it also has all good saves and full BAB.

Edit:


Apparently one of the most important ways to be a good healer in Pathfinder is to hurl yourself off of buildings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/achievement-feats/talmandor-s-lifting).

The logic is both flawless and intuitive.

That feat was written for 3.5, so it's not actually allowed in the PF rules.

[TiaC]

I've always been a fan of Arcane School Spirit. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/arcane-school-spirit-general) The name cracks me up, and you basically just cheer how awesome your specialty is.

Gnome feats are weird... in a good way, I think.


Benefit: As a full-round action, you extol the virtues of your school of magic to one creature within 30 feet. Make a Bluff check opposed by a target’s Sense Motive check; if you win the check, the target takes a –2 penalty on saving throws made to resist the next spell of this school that you cast. If your chosen school is universalist, choose a specific school each time you use this ability. If your Bluff check succeeds, however, your lack of true commitment to the school means the target takes only a –1 penalty on its saving throw.
Doesn't this contradict itself? I have no clue what's intended here.

[Spuddles]

Doesn't this contradict itself? I have no clue what's intended here.

If you are a universalist, the opponent only takes a -1 penalty to the school you end up picking out.

I was going to say that's a pretty useful feat, but with a full round use time, not really.

[SowZ]

If you are a universalist, the opponent only takes a -1 penalty to the school you end up picking out.

I was going to say that's a pretty useful feat, but with a full round use time, not really.

It isn't bad for out of combat stuff. Say, dominating someone.

[Doorhandle]

It isn't bad for out of combat stuff. Say, dominating someone.

Also, it's not like you couldn't use something quickened. Preferably a very nasty save or suck.

[Cambrian]

Also, it's not like you couldn't use something quickened. Preferably a very nasty save or suck.
With a good metamagic rod or another free metamagic ability I could see it. Otherwise you might as well just cast a standard action spell of the appropriate level slot since it will be at +4 DC (2 higher than the quickened spell assuming you made a successful bluff) and more powerful--plus you still can take a swift action + move.

[Prophes0r]

....The Prerequisite is Orc. Orcs are automatically proficient in Orc weapons (The whole one).

If you can take the feat, there is no way to be nonproficient with the weapon

So why is that line in there?

Because you can give up the Orc Weapon Familiarity racial feature to get something else. This would stop you from using that feat.

As a side note. If you really wanted an orc wielding a double axe, you could use this feat to get a +2 shield bonus to AC.

[Person_Man]

Maybe if there was some way to sneak the PrC Champion of Irori in there... That PrC gets some unarmed combat, ki, and paladin scaling (smite, lay on hands), but also gets some really nice abilities that can boost its defense to crazy levels. Oh, it also has all good saves and full BAB.

Well, you could go Ninja 2/Monk 2/Paladin 2/Champion of Irori X.

That would net you plenty of Skills, very high base Saves, a die of Sneak Attack, a Ninja Trick, Cha based Ki pool, a couple of bonus Feats, Evasion, Smite Evil, Divine Grace, and a few other minor perks. (I would try and find ways to trade away the Monk unarmored benefits and Stunning Fist via Archetypes, so that you could wear light armor and not be Wis dependent).

What are the Champion's pre-reqs and abilities?

[subject42]

What are the Champion's pre-reqs and abilities?

Champion of Irori requires still mind, which, to my knowledge, is only available to Monks in Pathfinder. Is there a way in PF to get Paladins to run off of Wisdom instead of Charisma?

[jmelesky]

Sad to hear about the lack of PrC. Are there any Pathfinder class synergy Feats in existance?

A few, though they're not great.

Theurgy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/theurgy) is for divine and arcane casters. It lets you sacrifice spell slots for a +1 to your divine caster level, or changing half your arcane spell damage to holy. Nothing to write home about.

Channeling Scourge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/channeling-scourge) is for Inquisitors that multiclass into cleric, letting their channel energy progress. Very situational, but useful for a mostly-inquisitor-with-just-a-cleric-dip.

The Dimensional Dervish chain of feats more or less requires a build tailored to them, so might not be exactly synergy feats. After four feats, you're able to dimension door (or abundant step) around the battlefield during your full attack, letting you flank with yourself (and, incidentally, guaranteeing a full attack every round). It's pretty impressive to see in action, it just takes a very long time to get working.

Those are the ones off the top of my head, and they're mostly like that: you get a minor bonus that's not really worth it, you mediate the trouble of multiclassing, or you have something really cool but that requires a whole build centered around it.

[randomhero00]

For the koan feat:

"A barber is a man in town who shaves those and only those men in town who do not shave themselves. Who shaves the barber?"

"I am lying. Do I speak true?"

"If there is an exception to every rule, then every rule must have at least one exception. Is there an exception to this rule?"

"A greedy man gives his cash with sorrow. However, he doesn't have the cash with sorrow. So how can he give what he doesn't have?"

"Can one drown in a fountain of eternal life?"

"If ones goal is not to accept this statement, can you accept this goal?"

"Answer me truthfully either yes or no to the following question: Will the next word you say be 'no'?"

"If your fate is to have free will, do you have a fate?"

[Wyntonian]

For the koan feat:

"A barber is a man in town who shaves those and only those men in town who do not shave themselves. Who shaves the barber?"

"I am lying. Do I speak true?"

"If there is an exception to every rule, then every rule must have at least one exception. Is there an exception to this rule?"

"A greedy man gives his cash with sorrow. However, he doesn't have the cash with sorrow. So how can he give what he doesn't have?"

"Can one drown in a fountain of eternal life?"

"If ones goal is not to accept this statement, can you accept this goal?"

"Answer me truthfully either yes or no to the following question: Will the next word you say be 'no'?"

"If your fate is to have free will, do you have a fate?"

I think we need a version of this feat that's a will save to prevent head explosion.

[randomhero00]

I think we need a version of this feat that's a will save to prevent head explosion.

Yeah, really. If you beat their sense motive by more than 20, will save or brain aneurysm.

[Chained Birds]

Concerning the Koan Build idea,

Why not go Human and take the Racial Heratage Feat (Gnome)?

A Human with Ninja or Monk so you can still have Medium status and don't have to play a gnome.

Though I guess one of your Koans could be how you are a Full-Blooded Human and are also part Gnome (apparently).

[Lord_Gareth]

Concerning the Koan Build idea,

Why not go Human and take the Racial Heratage Feat (Gnome)?

A Human with Ninja or Monk so you can still have Medium status and don't have to play a gnome.

Though I guess one of your Koans could be how you are a Full-Blooded Human and are also part Gnome (apparently).

Hell, just dip a single level of Monk or Ninja and then go Sorcerer or Bard or whatever for the rest of your levels so you can bounce the Koan off of people and then unload with class features worth a damn.

[Vicerious]

That feat was written for 3.5, so it's not actually allowed in the PF rules.

I dunno, it looks like the book it's from (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8bc3?Pathfinder-Companion-Andoran-Spirit-of-Liberty) is very allowable in PF.

[Zubrowka74]

What are the Champion's pre-reqs and abilities?

It's called Champion of the Enlightened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori) now.


Class Details
Hit Die: d8.

Requirements
To qualify to become a champion of the Enlightened, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.

Alignment: Lawful good.
Deity: Must worship the Enlightened.
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, 5 ranks total in Linguistics or other Knowledge skills.
Special: Smite evil class feature, still mind class feature.
Class Skills
The class skills of a champion of the Enlightened (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Ranks at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
The following are class features of the champion of the Enlightened prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A champion of the Enlightened gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Detect Chaos (Sp)
This ability functions like a paladin's detect evil ability, but detects chaos instead of evil.

Martial Artist (Ex)
The class levels of a champion of the Enlightened stack with monk levels for determining the effect of his AC bonus, flurry of blows, stunning fist, and unarmed strike class features.

Smite Chaos (Su)
At 1st level, a champion of the Enlightened gains an additional use of his paladin's smite evil ability. In addition, he can choose to use his smite evil ability to smite chaos instead, affecting chaotic-aligned creatures and dealing 2 points of damage per class level on the first successful attack against outsiders with the chaotic subtype, chaotic-aligned aberrations, and fey. Levels in this class stack with paladin levels for the purpose of determining how much damage a paladin of the Enlightened deals to targets of his smite. A champion of the Enlightened cannot have both a smite evil and smite chaos effect active at the same time; using one while the other is active immediately ends the older effect.

At 8th level, a champion of the Enlightened gains an additional use of his smite evil ability.

Ki Pool (Su)
At 2nd level, a champion of the Enlightened gains a ki pool equal to 1/2 his class level + his Wisdom modifier; this functions like the monk ability of the same name, and levels in this class stack with levels in other classes that grant a ki pool. In addition to the normal uses of this ki pool, a champion of the Enlightened may expend 2 ki points to trigger either his lay on hands ability (if he has it) or his smite evil ability. His class levels stack with paladin levels when determining the effect of such abilities.

Pursuit of Knowledge (Ex)
At 2nd level, a champion of the Enlightened adds 1/2 his class level on all Knowledge checks and can make Knowledge skill checks untrained.

Sweeping Smite (Ex)
At 3rd level, as a standard action, a champion of the Enlightened can make a single unarmed strike while using his smite evil or smite chaos ability. If the attack hits, he can make another attack at the same bonus against an evil or chaotic creature adjacent to the first and also within reach. He gains the benefits of smite chaos or smite evil (whichever he was already using), except for additional damage for the first attack, against that creature until the beginning of his next turn. This does not require an additional daily use of smite evil or smite chaos.

At 6th level, a champion of the Enlightened can use this ability to attack any number of opponents, as long as each is within his threatened area and adjacent to the previous target. This ability functions similarly to the Cleave and Great Cleave feats, but does not stack with them and does not result in an AC penalty.

Valiant Stand (Su)
At 4th level, a champion of the Enlightened gains a sacred bonus on attack rolls and to AC equal to 1/2 his class level when adjacent to more than one opponent. He does not gain this bonus if he is also adjacent to an ally.

Shield the Weak (Su)
At 5th level, as an immediate action once per round, a champion of the Enlightened can shield a number of adjacent allies equal to his Wisdom modifier from a burst, cone, line, or spread effect that allows a Reflex saving throw and which he and his allies are all affected by. The champion of the Enlightened must forgo his own saving throw, but adjacent allies gain improved cover against the effect, providing a +4 bonus on Reflex saves and improved evasion against the effect.

Skill Mastery
At 6th level, a champion of the Enlightened becomes well practiced in a certain number of his skills. This ability functions exactly like the skill mastery advanced rogue talent.

Perfect Opening (Ex)
At 7th level, once per round a champion of the Enlightened can make an attack of opportunity against an enemy he threatens when that enemy confirms a critical hit against the champion or an ally. The champion of the Enlightened can make this attack of opportunity even if he would be killed or incapacitated by the critical hit, resolving the attack after the critical hit deals damage but before he falls unconscious or dies. If the champion of the Enlightened's attack of opportunity hits, it is automatically a critical threat.

One Finger (Su)
At 8th level, as a standard action, a champion of the Enlightened can resolve a single unarmed attack as a melee touch attack.

Perfect Strike (Su)
At 9th level, a champion of the Enlightened can expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to perfect the next unarmed attack he makes before the end of his turn. Attack and damage rolls are rolled twice and the champion of the Enlightened selects which result to use.

Whirlwind Smite (Ex)
At 10th level, as a full-round action, a champion of the Enlightened can make one unarmed strike against every creature he threatens, as if he possessed the Whirlwind Attack feat (though he can use it only with unarmed strikes). He can also trigger either his smite evil or smite chaos ability while doing so, gaining its benefits against every creature he attacks for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom bonus.

Code of Conduct
A champion of the Enlightened embraces law and goodness as other paladins do, conducting himself with honor and protecting the innocent; he loses all class features if he ever willingly commits an evil act. A champion of the Enlightened must avoid entanglements that would distract him from the pursuit of perfection, and may not incur debts nor give loans to others—though he is encouraged to give freely to those in need. He likewise turns away potential followers of any sort, and may not recruit (and must discharge from service, if already acquired) any cohort, follower, animal companion, familiar, special mount, or similar creature.

[Blisstake]

I dunno, it looks like the book it's from (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8bc3?Pathfinder-Companion-Andoran-Spirit-of-Liberty) is very allowable in PF.

Good catch. I thought all the achievement feats were in the Legacy of Fire series during the 3.5 rules.

Edit: Well, it's still called the Champion of Irori, pfd20.com had to change the names of Golarion-specific information in compliance with Paizo's gaming license.

[Zubrowka74]

Well, it's still called the Champion of Irori, pfd20.com had to change the names of Golarion-specific information in compliance with Paizo's gaming license.

Ah right, I don't use Golarion as a setting so I was not familiar with the name anyways. That explains why the link to the Pathfinder Wiki returns a 404. Should point directly to Irori.

[Zubrowka74]

So this means we end up with a Bollywood-style Ninja/Monk/Paladin gnome (or gnome-like human) that stops charging animals with befuddling riddles ?

[jmelesky]

Hell, just dip a single level of Monk or Ninja and then go Sorcerer or Bard or whatever for the rest of your levels so you can bounce the Koan off of people and then unload with class features worth a damn.

No can do. The feat requires the ki pool class feature, which takes a minimum of two levels of ninja, or 4 levels of monk (3 with an archetype).

[Person_Man]

It's called Champion of the Enlightened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori) now.

Ah. So the first two level look really good. Smite Chaos with all the tasty benefits of Smite Evil, a Wis based Ki Pool, and the ability to spend 2 points of Ki to gain additional Lay on Hands or Smite Evil, plus all the cool Monk stuff stacks. But after that, the abilities look pretty meh. (Message to Pathfinder - if an attack is a Standard Action it needs to be demonstrably better then a generic full attack action to be worth it).

Still has promise for a mid level game though. Ninja 2/Monk 3/Paladin 2/Champion of the Enlightened 2?

[subject42]

Still has promise for a mid level game though. Ninja 2/Monk 3/Paladin 2/Champion of the Enlightened 2?

Why not drop Ninja entirely, then go monk 4 to get the ki pool? That would free up a level, wouldn't it?

[nedz]

Would Ninja 2/Monk 4 get you two Ki pools ?

[Prophes0r]

@RandomHero00
Those are not Koans. Those are riddles. They are TOTALLY different things.

Here are some modern koans

If we have attained this birth due to our karma (deeds) in our previous births, then how did we get our first birth?
How was your face before you were conceived?
Which are the questions whose answer is right if you say ‘Yes’, but is right even if you say ‘No’?
Who is the ear of the ear? How can the tongue taste itself?


Historicly they came with stories attached. like this one.

Ummon asked: `The world is such a wide world, why do you answer a bell and don ceremonial robes?'
Mumon's Comment: When one studies Zen one need not follow sound or colour or form. Even though some have attained insight when hearing a voice or seeing a colour or a form, this is a very common way. It is not true Zen. The real Zen student controls sound, colour, form, and actualizes the truth in his everyday life.
Sound comes to the ear, the ear goes to the sound. When you blot out sound and sense, what do you understand? While listening with ears one never can understand. To understand intimately one should see sound.



When you understand, you belong to the family;
When you do not understand, you are a stranger.
Those who do not understand belong to the family,
And when they understand they are strangers.


The Feat itself is a poor use of the Idea of Koan. A Koan is not an "unanswerable question". It is simply a question, posed to put the recipient into a specific state of mind while thinking about it. They can have many answers, but the answers are completely irrelevant.

As the saying goes....It is the thought that counts.

[subject42]

Would Ninja 2/Monk 4 get you two Ki pools ?

The monk's Ki pool is half his monk level + his Wisdom modifier.

The ninja's Ki pool is half his ninja level + his Charisma modifier.

That would get you two Ki pools, but as for whether or not it's worthwhile would probably depend on your ability scores and character build.

Also, a rogue, of all classes, can get a Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-ex).

[jmelesky]

Would Ninja 2/Monk 4 get you two Ki pools ?

Nope. From the ninja class description:


If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.

So, just one ki pool that's used for everything.

[subject42]

Nope. From the ninja class description:

So, just one ki pool that's used for everything.

Wow. Sanity. I stand corrected.

[Person_Man]

Why not drop Ninja entirely, then go monk 4 to get the ki pool? That would free up a level, wouldn't it?

You could do that. It's just a very MAD build. Divine Grace, Smite Evil/Chaos, and Lay on Hands are all Cha based, while the Ki Pool, unarmored AC, and Stunning Fist are Wis based. And you can't really dump Str, Dex, or Con. (Oddly, you can dump Int).

[subject42]

You could do that. It's just a very MAD build. Divine Grace, Smite Evil/Chaos, and Lay on Hands are all Cha based, while the Ki Pool, unarmored AC, and Stunning Fist are Wis based. And you can't really dump Str, Dex, or Con. (Oddly, you can dump Int).

You might be able to trim it down some. WIS and CHA are necessary for the Ki pool and Smite/Saves, and DEX is necessary for initiative, AC, and ranged attacks.

The Paladin offers a scaling mount as a class feature. If you use the Paladin along with the Sohei (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei) monk Archetype, you could stick to mounted archery, using ranged Smite to supplement your damage. That should let you drop Strength, at least, while maintaining the Still Mind class feature necessary to enter Champion of Irori.