Best metamagic feat to take to qualify for Ultimate Magus?

[Chilingsworth]

Hey Playground!

Ok, so my character just made 6th level and is a wizard 5/Beguiler 1 (I didn't take beguiler first for RP reasons, so I couldn't take practiced spellcaster (beguiler) until 3rd level. That's why I didn't take a metamagic feat at level 3 and am not entering UM until level 7.)

Anyway, my current feats and spell list (if they matter, spoilered if they don't):

Feats: 1st level: Spellcasting Prodigy (Int), Human: (Able Learner), Scribe Scroll (Wizard Bonus)
3 bonus cultural feats (homebrew modification to system): Second Wind, Open Minded, Heroic Destiny.
3rd level: Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler)
6th level: campaign specific feat that lets me found an evil organisation
Wiz 5 Bonus feat ???

Spells: Wizard:
0-th (homebrew alteration: Wizards have to chose a limited number of 0-th level spells to know at chargen, but can use the 0-th's they prepare indefinately.): Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Sonic Snap, Read Magic, Message

1st level: Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Magic Missile, Begin Transposition, Persistant Blade, Nerveskitter, Charm Person, Color Spray, Mage Armor (I know those three duplicate spells on my beguiler list, but since I wanted them at 1st level, I had to take them.)

2nd level: Kelore's Gravemist, Invisibility, Web, Mirror Image, Shadow Spray, Dark Way.

3rd: Haste, Explosive Runes.

Beguiler Spells: (Homebrew alteration: Beguilers no longer get 0-th level spells)
1st level: Standard beguiler 1st level spell package.

So, What would you guys suggest? If I can't be convinced there's anything better, I'll likely default to Extend Spell, but I'm definately open to other suggestions.

[silverwolfer]

extend then eventually persist

[Chilingsworth]

extend then eventually persist

Isn't persist a spell level +6 metamagic? I'm only going to get 5th level beguiler spells (I'm going that route rather than getting 9th level spells a level earlier because a. it would only get me 9th level spells at level 19, anyway; b. my DM has banned gate and shapechange (and I'm not sure how useful timestop would be to me. Also, we have a cleric if we need astral projection.), and c. I want the extra castings of dominate person I get from 5th level beguiler spells since we're in a humanoid-heavy campaign.)

Anyway, without 6th level beguiler spells, the wizard spells I could apply persist to are limited. And I'm not sure how useful persist would be for the spells on my beguiler spell list. Also, I believe metamagic reducers are limited in their availability in this campaign. (I'm actually not sure there are any my build could take advantage of.)

I'm guessing there's either something I've misunderstood, or that I'm not seeing here, right?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Even if you got 6th level beguiler spells you couldn't apply that class feature to persist. The class feature caps the metamagick's adjustment at half your UM level. At UM 10 that's only +5. There are ways around this but it's not going to happen normally.

I suggest quicken. Unless you're going to have alot of swift or immediate action spells to use anyway having a use for those swift actions and being able to drop two spells in a round can be quite nice.

[Chilingsworth]

Even if you got 6th level beguiler spells you couldn't apply that class feature to persist. The class feature caps the metamagick's adjustment at half your UM level. At UM 10 that's only +5. There are ways around this but it's not going to happen normally.

I suggest quicken. Unless you're going to have alot of swift or immediate action spells to use anyway having a use for those swift actions and being able to drop two spells in a round can be quite nice.

Quicken is a good idea. I'm definately going to be taking it, but I was thinking I'd wait until I can actually use it.

Also, I thought the cap was to the spell the metamagic feat got applied to, not to the spell-level adjustment.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Quicken is a good idea. I'm definately going to be taking it, but I was thinking I'd wait until I can actually use it.

Also, I thought the cap was to the spell the metamagic feat got applied to, not to the spell-level adjustment.

Checked it. You're right.

's what I get from going by memory all the time, I guess. :smalltongue:

Remember that it goes both ways. You could sacrifice wizard spells to quicken beguiler spells too. Could prove handy.

[Chilingsworth]

Remember that it goes both ways. You could sacrifice wizard spells to quicken beguiler spells too. Could prove handy.

Indeed, but I can't use it at all until I have fourth level spells (which I will have by lv9 for certain) Still, I suppose I could take it now which would free up my 9th level slot for Craft Wonderous Item... If I don't take it by 9th, I'll have the opportunity at 11th (UM bonus feat).

What I'd really like to take is invisible spell, but that requires another metamagic feat... :smallsigh:

[Arcanist]

For Ultimate Magus I find, Heighten or Extend (and then going into Persistent) to be the most useful in the long run (I've seen someone argue Enlarge as well, but that's not TOO useful compared to the others).

Personally, I don't exactly agree with the use of Beguiler as a side for Ult. Magus, but I understand the desire to be SAD. A Theurge should be a bunch of toolboxes put together, not a single toolbox and a screwdriver, but I'm used to PB so eh :smallsigh:

But yeah, you are going to want to use low cost metamagic feats that have long term application. The only exception to this should be Quicken and Persistent.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Indeed, but I can't use it at all until I have fourth level spells (which I will have by lv9 for certain) Still, I suppose I could take it now which would free up my 9th level slot for Craft Wonderous Item... If I don't take it by 9th, I'll have the opportunity at 11th (UM bonus feat).

What I'd really like to take is invisible spell, but that requires another metamagic feat... :smallsigh:

You could consider this; taking quicken now opens up sudden quicken, for 3 free quickened spells per day, at the next feat opportunity. That may or may not be sinking more resources than you'd care to into quickening spells though.

[nedz]

Sudden Quicken has 6 pre-req feats, 5 of them further Sudden feats.

Anyway:
How about Heighten Spell ?
Pretty useful for a Beguiler.

[Psyren]

Personally, I don't exactly agree with the use of Beguiler as a side for Ult. Magus, but I understand the desire to be SAD. A Theurge should be a bunch of toolboxes put together, not a single toolbox and a screwdriver, but I'm used to PB so eh :smallsigh:

Nah, Beguiler is definitely a toolbox. And keeping it on that side means you free up your Wizard side to more easily ban Enchantment and Illusion.

[Arcanist]

Nah, Beguiler is definitely a toolbox. And keeping it on that side means you free up your Wizard side to more easily ban Enchantment and Illusion.

Hmmm... Perhaps I should say it another way: I'd rather be able to make my own Toolbox, then be forced into using a pre-made one. By going the Sorcerer route, you are allowing yourself to cherry pick any spells you might be banning and you really only need a 15 (or 16) in Charisma at most since generally you will be trying to get 9th Wizard casting instead of 9th Sorcerer casting. The added option of being able to cherry pick is the most redeeming quality really.

[Keld Denar]

The metamagic I really like are all 1 feat prereq ones. Sculpt, Split Ray, and Fell Draining, markedly. Otherwise, Quicken is good, and Empower can be quite good if used properly.

I'd take Quicken early, then move into the higher prereq ones you like. It might not be immediately useful, but it is guaranteed to be useful in a couple levels and gets your foot in the door.

Extend is generally best left as a rod. +1 rods are very cheap, and since they are primarily used for long term buffs, having them at hand is not a problem. Unless you want Persist, which can be very useful with a couple 1st and 2nd level spells as 7th and 8th level slots, I'd suggest to skip Extend.

[Psyren]

Hmmm... Perhaps I should say it another way: I'd rather be able to make my own Toolbox, then be forced into using a pre-made one. By going the Sorcerer route, you are allowing yourself to cherry pick any spells you might be banning and you really only need a 15 (or 16) in Charisma at most since generally you will be trying to get 9th Wizard casting instead of 9th Sorcerer casting. The added option of being able to cherry pick is the most redeeming quality really.

I get that, but even pre-made, the Beguiler's toolbox (list) is really good. And starting off with Beguiler rather than Sorcerer (or wizard) has other benefits, e.g. their high skill points (amplified by your Int focus), great list, and nabbing trapfinding.

[Arcanist]

I get that, but even pre-made, the Beguiler's toolbox (list) is really good. And starting off with Beguiler rather than Sorcerer (or wizard) has other benefits, e.g. their high skill points (amplified by your Int focus), great list, and nabbing trapfinding.

Oh, I'm not implying that the Beguiler list is bad (to be fair, I haven't actually heard of a "bad spell list" since some spells is better then no spells), actually, It is REALLY GOOD, just not often what I personally look for in a Theurge. I was just listing my personal preference on the matter (I probably shouldn't have done that, but eh...).

[Brock Samson]

May I suggest two things:

1. Pick up Persistent Spell. Grab yourself a Ring of Theurgy (Comp. Arcane? Or Mage). The ring allows you to store up to 3 spells (of any level) into it, which you can - as a prepared caster, if you have an open spell slot, as a move action you can put one of those spells into that slot, then of course cast it as a standard action, so this gives you more versatility there. As a spontaneous caster you can cast each of those spells in the slot from your spell slots. The spells disappear from the ring once used, but this means you can transfer your wizard spells over to your beguiler side for the cost of also using the wizard spell slot to put them into the ring in the first place. Then you can sack your 6th level wizard spells to Persist your highest level beguiler spells (which are now actually whatever wizard spell you want them to be).

2. Residual Metamagic. I believe it's in PH2? It's just... it's good! Apply a metamagic effect this round, next round you cast that same spell and it gets the effect for free. So.... for blasting your Empowered Scotching Ray gets to get Empowered the following round for free. However you just sacked a level 3 spell to make it maximized, so now it's maximized empowered, next round it's maximized for free, sack a level 2 spell, now it's maximized and empowered for free. Don't forget later on about the Energy Admixture feat. This is if you feel like blasting. If not then when you sack a level 1 spell to Extend Energy Immunity, next round you get a free Extend onto the next Energy Immunity you cast. Quicken that wall spell this round, cast it again next round - quickened for free!

Did I mention Residual Metamagic also has ANOTHER effect? Cast a spell this round, next round if you use a scroll/wand to cast the same spell, the save DC and caster level are equal to YOURS, not the item's. So suddenly that CL 5 fireball wand can be CL 10 with a decent save - without increasing the price.

Just some ideas.

Also - keep in mind the 2 prestige classes that will likely advance UM abilities, Legacy Champion and the one other 3 level class, umm... it's the skill trick one actually I think.

And if you want to just persist a bunch and don't want to take one of those prestige classes, just take 1 more level of plain old Beguiler, so you get level 6 beguiler spells to sack to persist your wizard spells.

[Chilingsworth]

The metamagic I really like are all 1 feat prereq ones. Sculpt, Split Ray, and Fell Draining, markedly. Otherwise, Quicken is good, and Empower can be quite good if used properly.

I'd take Quicken early, then move into the higher prereq ones you like. It might not be immediately useful, but it is guaranteed to be useful in a couple levels and gets your foot in the door.

Extend is generally best left as a rod. +1 rods are very cheap, and since they are primarily used for long term buffs, having them at hand is not a problem. Unless you want Persist, which can be very useful with a couple 1st and 2nd level spells as 7th and 8th level slots, I'd suggest to skip Extend.

Dang... so many good metamagic feats, only a maximum of four feat slots to spend on them (assuming I take a couple of crafting feats, one on combat casting (for abjurant champion prereqs) and everything else I have left as metamagic.) :smallfrown: :smallsigh:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sudden Quicken has 6 pre-req feats, 5 of them further Sudden feats.

Anyway:
How about Heighten Spell ?
Pretty useful for a Beguiler.

I was going from memory again. Maybe I was remembering the old Mini's handbook version?

In any case, yeah heighten is decent for any sponataneous caster and being able to spontaneously apply it to prepared spells is a really nice trick too. Makes the lower level spells stick to useful a bit longer than they otherwise would.

[ahenobarbi]

As for metamagic feat Quicken rules but you will be able to use it later. Extend is great. Use 1st level beguiler slots to save highest level wizard slots (because now they last long enough and you don't have to re-cast them).


Ok, so my character just made 6th level and is a wizard 5/Beguiler 1 (I didn't take beguiler first for RP reasons, so I couldn't take practiced spellcaster (beguiler) until 3rd level. That's why I didn't take a metamagic feat at level 3 and am not entering UM until level 7.)

Why not Wizard 2/Beguiler 1/Wizard +2/Ultimate magus? Metamagic feat at level 1, Practiced Spellcaster(beguiler) at level 3. Just sayin'

[Arcanist]

Why not Wizard 2/Beguiler 1/Wizard +2/Ultimate magus? Metamagic feat at level 1, Practiced Spellcaster(beguiler) at level 3. Just sayin'

What a waste of perfectly good Early entry :smallannoyed:

Clearly

Gnome
Conjurer 2 / Beguiler 1 / Master Specialist 2 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 is superior :smallamused: I'll write this all out later, but I believe this pretty much makes it so that you banned Illusions and are better then most Illusionist.

[Chilingsworth]

Why not Wizard 2/Beguiler 1/Wizard +2/Ultimate magus? Metamagic feat at level 1, Practiced Spellcaster(beguiler) at level 3. Just sayin'

Because I didn't think of that? :smalltongue:

Also the two feats I took at level 1 (spellcasting prodigy and able learner) are both 1st level only feats. Lastly, becuase I don't intend to avail myself of the extra level of wizard casting the earlier entry would allow me, anyway.


What a waste of perfectly good Early entry :smallannoyed:

Clearly

Gnome
Conjurer 2 / Beguiler 1 / Master Specialist 2 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 is superior :smallamused: I'll write this all out later, but I believe this pretty much makes it so that you banned Illusions and are better then most Illusionist.

Gnomes are extinct on my dm's world (fled a prophesised catastrophe in a spelljammer-like ship that created a massive desert when it launched.)

I chose to be a generalist wizard. As for race, my only real options were human and half-elf (which is a homebrewed version that gets all the human goodies, and a +2, -2 of my choice.)* I chose half-elf.

Also, all the [Calling] subschool spells are banned in my dm's world, so conjurer is at least slightly less attractive.

*Technically, humans get a +1,-1 of the player's choice and half-elves get a second +1,-1 of the player's choice, but it basically works out to the same thing.

[nedz]

I was going from memory again. Maybe I was remembering the old Mini's handbook version?

They're both the same.

The pre-reqs make Sudden Quicken virtually useless — I mean who would take Quicken Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Extend, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Silent and Sudden Still for it ?

Maybe there does exist some build where this lot turn out to be useful, but I'd be surprised.

[Kelb_Panthera]

They're both the same.

The pre-reqs make Sudden Quicken virtually useless — I mean who would take Quicken Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Extend, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Silent and Sudden Still for it ?

Maybe there does exist some build where this lot turn out to be useful, but I'd be surprised.

All of those are situationally useful in and of themselves.

I don't have any trouble imagining a more casual player whose build didn't have a lot of feat tax taking most or even all of them. Especially since they all count as metamagics and many PrC's call for at least one as part of their requirements.

I do see how sudden quicken isn't a thing for you to consider with this build though.

[ahenobarbi]

Because I didn't think of that? :smalltongue:

Also the two feats I took at level 1 (spellcasting prodigy and able learner) are both 1st level only feats. Lastly, becuase I don't intend to avail myself of the extra level of wizard casting the earlier entry would allow me, anyway..

You could rebuild (if your DM allows it). The build generally gets more spells at low levels and better wizard casting at later levels. It's true that you'd have to give up one of the 1st level feats.

[Chilingsworth]

You could rebuild (if your DM allows it). The build generally gets more spells at low levels and better wizard casting at later levels. It's true that you'd have to give up one of the 1st level feats.

Rebuilding isn't allowed. Also, I'm not too interested in the better wizard casting (my DM has banned gate and shapechange, I'm not sure I could make the best use of timestop, and we have a cleric so he can cast astral projection if we want it.) Besides, I'll still get 9th level spells, even if only at 20th level. The 5th level beguiler list includes dominate person, though and that is useful considering we're in a humanoid-heavy campaign (trying to overthrow an ostensively lawful good, but more than a little human-supremisist government.)

[nedz]

All of those are situationally useful in and of themselves.

I don't have any trouble imagining a more casual player whose build didn't have a lot of feat tax taking most or even all of them. Especially since they all count as metamagics and many PrC's call for at least one as part of their requirements.

Yes, but I think that they'd have to have an obsession about Sudden metamagics — though it looks more like a showcase feat.

It's almost a Warlock thing. Warlocks can benefit from Sudden metamagics, but not normal metamagics like Quicken ... :smallamused:

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, but I think that they'd have to have an obsession about Sudden metamagics — though it looks more like a showcase feat.

It's almost a Warlock thing. Warlocks can benefit from Sudden metamagics, but not normal metamagics like Quicken ... :smallamused:

Mmm, almost a warlock thing. Not really a good warlock thing, but one of the only warlock things in the book besides the class itself. Warlock feat support is fairly hideous, until they decided to make up for lost time with Eldritch Claws. Yay Balance!:smallannoyed:

[Chilingsworth]

Well, I think I've decided on my feat: Fell Drain. I'll use it for sonic snaps and a magic missile. I'll probably take Craft Wonderous Item at level 9, Quicken at level 11, Fell Animate at level 12 (mostly to make fell animate explosive runes to cast on fake wanted posters and create minor zombie outbreaks all over the country.) Extend and maybe persist at level 15, if not persist, then either craft arms and armor or improved familiar (I think my dm lets PrC levels stack for familiar purposes, or at least lets us qualify for improved familiars based on caster level rather than arcane spellcasting class level.) Still leaves my 18th level feat open. I might take persist then.

(sorry for wall of text...)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I haven't seen the feat Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) mentioned yet. That allows you to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including any Wizard spells you've learned.

I'd get Split Ray or Fell Drain Spell. You haven't given up Enchantment from Wizard judging by your spell list, so Fell Drain Power Word: Pain (RotD) and/or Split Ray of Stupidity (SC) are quite potent. You can put Fell Drain on Kelgore's Grave Mist and Explosive Runes as well. One of the strongest choices for a second metamagic feat would be Invisible Spell from Cityscape.

[Chilingsworth]

I haven't seen the feat Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) mentioned yet. That allows you to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including any Wizard spells you've learned.

I'd get Split Ray or Fell Drain Spell. You haven't given up Enchantment from Wizard judging by your spell list, so Fell Drain Power Word: Pain (RotD) and/or Split Ray of Stupidity (SC) are quite potent. You can put Fell Drain on Kelgore's Grave Mist and Explosive Runes as well. One of the strongest choices for a second metamagic feat would be Invisible Spell from Cityscape.

About the versatile spellcaster: Yeah, no... my DM would only allow its use to cast higher level beguiler spells. Or were you refering to the wizard spells I get to add to my beguiler list? I'll grant it's still a useful feat, though.

I'm already planing to take fell drain, though thanks for pointing out the idea of putting it on kelore's gravemist. (wait... would that make it deal one negative level every round? :smalleek:) Split ray could take the place of extend (which might free up a feat that would have gone to persist.) Oh, right invisible spell. Definately want that. At minimum, invisible walls of stone should have some fun applications, if I'm really lucky, I can get invisible summons. :smallamused:

Ok, so this level (6): Fell Drain
9th level: Craft Wonderous Item
11th level (UM bonus): Invisible Spell
12th level: Fell Animate
15th level: Combat Casting (just remembered: Abjurant champion after I finish UM)
15th level (UM Bonus): Split Ray
18th: Craft Arms and Armor

Of course, crafting may well end up sucking in this campaign, so those crafting feats might not happen. In which case: extend and persist, no quicken and something else... respectively. :smallamused:

Dang it, now I need to find a PrC that costs no caster levels and only requires feats I'll ready have to take for levels 17-20... :smallannoyed:

Or, do without quicken, I suppose, or without craft arms and armor.

[Chilingsworth]

And I just remembered, I wanted the Summon Elemental feat, too! Ugh! :smallfrown:

Ok... so, I get 7 feats, 3 of which have to be metamagic feats (2 UM bonus, 1 entry prereq) That leaves me with 4. If I want to finish my build with abjurant champion, one of those needs to be combat casting and I want the two item crafting feats. That leaves me one I can use for summon elemental. Maybe I should drop arms and armor. If my party wants weapons (which I get next to no benefit from) let one of them take the feat! Yeah, that works. Maybe I should drop the fell animate (though I think the mini zombie outbreaks would win through rule of cool...)?

*where's the smiley for going insane?*

So, 6th: fell drain
9th: craft wonderous item
11th (UM bonus): Invisible Spell
12th: fell animate? Split Ray?
15th: Combat Casting
15th: (UM Bonus): Quicken
18th: Split Ray or summon elemental?

Ok, so basically I can get fell animate, split ray, summon elemental: chose 2.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And I just remembered, I wanted the Summon Elemental feat, too! Ugh! :smallfrown:

Ok... so, I get 7 feats, 3 of which have to be metamagic feats (2 UM bonus, 1 entry prereq) That leaves me with 4. If I want to finish my build with abjurant champion, one of those needs to be combat casting and I want the two item crafting feats. That leaves me one I can use for summon elemental. Maybe I should drop arms and armor. If my party wants weapons (which I get next to no benefit from) let one of them take the feat! Yeah, that works. Maybe I should drop the fell animate (though I think the mini zombie outbreaks would win through rule of cool...)?

*where's the smiley for going insane?*

So, 6th: fell drain
9th: craft wonderous item
11th (UM bonus): Invisible Spell
12th: fell animate? Split Ray?
15th: Combat Casting
15th: (UM Bonus): Quicken
18th: Split Ray or summon elemental?

Ok, so basically I can get fell animate, split ray, summon elemental: chose 2.

You mean this one? -> :belkar:

:smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

I think this is too late:
18th: Split Ray or summon elemental?
You may never get to use them, and the second is better at low level.
But it's probably academic.

[Chilingsworth]

You mean this one? -> :belkar:

:smallbiggrin:

I thought that was the smiley for going homocidal... :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I thought that was the smiley for going homocidal... :smalltongue:

There's another kind of crazy?:smallconfused: ........... :smallbiggrin:

[Chilingsworth]

I think this is too late:
18th: Split Ray or summon elemental?
You may never get to use them, and the second is better at low level.
But it's probably academic.

Well, the adventure path is supposed to take us to 20th level, and my group does have a history of completing campaigns (though it often takes years. And when I say 'history' I mean we've completed the Savage Tide campaign from levels 1-21, and we're closing on the end of The Age of Worms campaign (levels 1-18 so far.))

So, I have significant reason to plan on reaching level 18 eventually. Though it's quite possible this character will be permenantly dead by then. (Well, maybe not 'quite' possible, he is a wizard, afterall, but still possible.)

So, I guess I should probably drop summon elemental, then?

[Keld Denar]

Split Ray is pretty brutal. Split Enervation is Energy Drain from a 6th level slot, more or less. Sure, it can't become permanent, but you're gonna fill the guy's liver with swords in the next 12-18 seconds anyway, so min/CL is fine.

Fatespinner is kinda nice and doesn't have any feat prereqs for 4 levels. Divine Oracle requires Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion, which you can technically BUY from the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel. Otherwise, if you have enough levels, Divine Oracle2/Loremaster3 double dips on the Knowledge feat, and then grants a bonus feat (and one other secret) to replace it for a net loss of 0.

[Chilingsworth]

Split Ray is pretty brutal. Split Enervation is Energy Drain from a 6th level slot, more or less. Sure, it can't become permanent, but you're gonna fill the guy's liver with swords in the next 12-18 seconds anyway, so min/CL is fine.

Fatespinner is kinda nice and doesn't have any feat prereqs for 4 levels. Divine Oracle requires Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion, which you can technically BUY from the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel. Otherwise, if you have enough levels, Divine Oracle2/Loremaster3 double dips on the Knowledge feat, and then grants a bonus feat (and one other secret) to replace it for a net loss of 0.

I'm aware of how nasty split ray can be. That Savage Tides campaign I mentioned featured an incantrix sorcerer. Varrious varriations on "metamagic'ed enervation" and "metamagic'ed disintegrate" were his favorite tactics.

I've considered fatespinner, but I expect my character to end up lawfully aligned eventually (you know, side effect of worshiping and serving Asmodeus, founding and maintaining an evil organisation to further your goals, and trying to become the leader (or at least one of them) of an entire nation and resturcture it to your principles.) As far as Frog God's Fane... I'm pretty dang sure my DM doesn't go for those touchstones or whatever they're called. Also, I only have four levels to spare. :smallfrown:
I'll be a wiz5/beguiler1/UM10/X4 at the end. Although, just taking Loremaster 4 could work... hmm, something to consider.

Or, Loremaster3/Divine Oracle 1.

Also, I might be able to qualify for the feat at Loremaster 1.

And Thanks for advising me again, Keld. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I definately will qualify for the feat at Loremaster 1: I'll have at least 24 int at level 16, not including items.

[Keld Denar]

Fatespinner has no RAW alignment restrictions. While the fluff is generally chaotic (fate is fickle...and fingery), it doesn't have to be. Fate could be an entirely orderly system, such has how the Furies measure and cut each thread in a precise fashion in Greek Mythology.

If you are gonna have ANY Divine Oracle, I'd go to DO2 for Prescience Sense. Evasion is smexy! DO2/LM2 isn't THAT bad, or you could go DO3/LM1.

EDIT: I've been relatively inactive lately, but for some reason, I always end up surfacing right around the time you are looking for build help. I dunno. Maybe its fate. I still remember helping you with a Warblade build a bit ago.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Paragnostic Apostle is a pretty good choice for finishing out a few levels of a build. Then there's the inevitable Incantatrix dip suggestion.

Versatile Spellcaster undoubtedly does work the way I described, though it would be fair for a DM to require you to flip to that spell in your spellbook and read it from the pages as you're casting it. Not very effective in combat, but you're guaranteed to have the right utility spell for any situation.

[Chilingsworth]

Fatespinner has no RAW alignment restrictions. While the fluff is generally chaotic (fate is fickle...and fingery), it doesn't have to be. Fate could be an entirely orderly system, such has how the Furies measure and cut each thread in a precise fashion in Greek Mythology.

If you are gonna have ANY Divine Oracle, I'd go to DO2 for Prescience Sense. Evasion is smexy! DO2/LM2 isn't THAT bad, or you could go DO3/LM1.

*rechecks fatespinner*

Well, sure enough. Wonder which PrC I was confusing it with.:smallconfused:

Anyway, yeah DO2 or 3/LM 1 or 2 sounds like the way to go. Of course, this all assumes my DM both included those PrC's and didn't change them in a way that makes them unusable in this build. I know for a fact that Abjurant Champion is in and unchanged, so that will be my fallback plan.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If this is the same character you're talking about in the explosive runes thread, have you considered selling your soul before you make that alignment shift naturally?

The rules are in FC2 and you -could- get a bonus feat out of it if you were cagey enough to finagle a good pact insidious out of a harvester devil.

That could get you the summon elemental feat.

[Chilingsworth]

If this is the same character you're talking about in the explosive runes thread, have you considered selling your soul before you make that alignment shift naturally?

The rules are in FC2 and you -could- get a bonus feat out of it if you were cagey enough to finagle a good pact insidious out of a harvester devil.

That could get you the summon elemental feat.

I have considered it, but we aren't using the soul selling rules.

(Also, the campaign started (well, after we escaped from prison and razed the place thanks to a smuggled set of lock picks and a few other pieces of gear) We all had to sign things that seemed very much like a kind of Pact Certain. Though it didn't drop any of us to Lawful Evil (though it did give us the rough equivilant of one corupption and one obesience point... My dm is using his own alignment tracking system.)

So, anyway... I did, but can't sell my soul in that particular way. And I may or may not have sold my soul in another manner anyhow.

Lastly, I just made the alignment shift from True Neutral (heavy evil leanings, Mild lawful leaning) to Neutral Evil (minimum score to qualify as evil, mild lawful leanings) So, I doubt my soul would be worth much anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It was worth a shot.

I think those rules, and the implications that they have for the value of a soul, are quite interesting. I'd really like to try and finagle a DM into letting me play a character that's signed a pact insidious giving him the right to make faustian pacts with other mortals. I'd have him buying mortal souls and then selling them to devils for his own profit.

...... what? Sometimes when I go dark-side I go whole-hog.

[Psyren]

Fatespinner has no RAW alignment restrictions. While the fluff is generally chaotic (fate is fickle...and fingery), it doesn't have to be. Fate could be an entirely orderly system, such has how the Furies measure and cut each thread in a precise fashion in Greek Mythology.

To build on this - you could actually fluff a lawful Fatespinner as using their "spin" to remove chaos from the threads of Fate. Simply follow the belief that the world is an inherently chaotic place and that you are enforcing /restoring order.

After all, think about it - you take the class so your rolls are less random, not more. You wouldn't use your spin on a clearly successful check - you'd save it for one that is uncertain or doomed to failure otherwise.

[Sudain]

For your feats - UM is great for free meta magics. I'm noticing a lot of other non-meta magic things in there(craft ...), reserve feats. I'm just concerned your build may be diluted. (Having said that I do the same myself. :))

As far as which metamagics to pick... what's your spell list for the rest of your carrer look like? Lots of rays? Lots of things with durations that matter?

[Chilingsworth]

For your feats - UM is great for free meta magics. I'm noticing a lot of other non-meta magic things in there(craft ...), reserve feats. I'm just concerned your build may be diluted. (Having said that I do the same myself. :))

As far as which metamagics to pick... what's your spell list for the rest of your carrer look like? Lots of rays? Lots of things with durations that matter?

As for dilutions: I'm likely to end up as the only crafter in the group (in a campaign where simply buying items will be difficult.) So, I basically have to take craft wonderous item. (My dm does let noncasters take craft feats, though-- and waives the spell requirements for them. So, if the meathshields want improved weapons, let them take the feat.) As for reserve feats: I've decided against them. Instead, I'll try using stockpiled explosive runes + infinite amanuensis both as a way to determine if someone is worthy of spending real spells on (if they counter my "drop an explosive rune next to them, then detonate it" tactic, they might be,) and as a reserve feat subsitute.

As for my future spell list... I'm not certain of all of it, but spells I've definately decided I want (on top of what I already have, these are wizard spells, I'll also get beguiler spells up to 5th level, anything on this list that also falls on the beguiler list is taken because I want access to it earlier):

0-th level (wizards do not automatically get all 0's in this world): amanuensis

1st level: Ray of clumsiness, lesser shivering touch, thunderhead

2nd level: spectral hand, lesser orb spells, ghoul glyph, touch of idiocy, command undead

3rd: shivering touch, fly, stinking cloud, shrink item, major image, charm monster, suggestion, dispel magic, ray of dizziness, arcane sight

4th: greater mirror image, dimension door, defenstrating sphere, black tentacles, solid fog, animate dead, enervation, scrying

5th: teleport, mass fly, cloudkill, wall of stone, dominate person, cotact other plane, sending, feeblemind, overland flight

6th: greater anticipate teleportation, acid fog, greater dispel magic, ray of entropy, contingency, mass suggestion, scry location

7th: greater teleport, energy immunity, mage's magnificent mansion

8th: chain dispel, mind blank, mass charm monster

9th: dominate monster, programed amnesia, reaving dispel

I think that's it, for now.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, I just dug up my DM's compendium o' campaign stuff, and found a nice little gem of a Capstone:

A homebrewed PrC of his that gives full casting, some minor metamagic reducers (with the 4 levels I'd be taking, I'd get to reduce the costs of two metamagic feats each by one spell level (to a minimum of +1 spell level.)), and a couple extra spells known. Oh, and the feat requirements? two metamagic feats and an item creation feat! :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, neither Divine Oracles nor Lore Masters seem to exist in my DM's setting.

[Chilingsworth]

Ok, so adjusted plan.
(Rsidusial Metamagic is unavailable)


So, 6th: fell drain
9th: craft wonderous item
11th (UM bonus): Invisible Spell
12th: fell animate
15th: Split Ray or versatile spellcaster?
15th: (UM Bonus): Quicken
18th: Split Ray or versatile spellcaster?

Also, which metamagic feats would it be best to apply my metamagic reducers to? (I can reduce the spell level cost of two metamagic feats by one each, to a minimum of +1 spell level.)

Dang... didn't realise I had triple posted :smalleek:
Sorry. :smallredface: