The Trapsmith and the Bard? Build questions. [Archive]

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Krazzman

2013-01-15, 07:17 AM

Hello again playground.

Due to a few threads in the past days and the "not really challenge" challenge I got last thursday I kept thinking. My fiance took quite an interest in the Rogueclass (or better said the trap disabler role) and I am thinking for quite some time about a crusader (archetypical) build.

But first the background:
In the group we are in we separated our campaigns depending on either where to play or who can come at these days.
When we play at our place I DM a Pathfinder campaign for 4 players. When we meet at the other couple's house we play a 3.5 Faerun campaign with 5 players.
Over the course of a few months we managed to reach level 5 and... well my character is "too strong" compared to the group. I deal massive damage compared to the others. I can Trip my enemies, can have multiple attacks or ignore DR (Steel Wind, Mountain Hammer and PA-ing with a spiked chain).
We have a Druid with a love for blasting spells (flame sphere, produce flame, call lightning) or attackign with her +1 Shock shortspear. A Bardlock (that is rather dull in playing till it should hit it's breaking point) a more skillmonkeyish Rogue/Ranger with TWF. And an Old Favoured Soul with a water flavour and not that good spell selection as it seems (he rarely uses them too).

The Favoured Soul player invited us to play at his place and maybe even dming an own campaign. The thing is... he found that the current char I'm playing was too strong already. It's ok for me, it's his taste. Although he said that he never saw a good rogue or a good bard. Now I keep thinking does he mean archetypical or the class, in a pure class kind of build?
As I can only ask him in 2 weeks I have quite some time to prepare. I already opened another thread a few days ago about this topic. Archetypical to play a rogue is quite easy, a pure class build... not so much.

The "rules":
Attribute generating method unknown.
Available books Unknown (Core + Completes fairly sure, ToB and MoI in possession, Races of Stone/Wild/Destiny/Faerun unsure)
No flaws
Sidenote: Fumbles possible
probably low wealth
probably a more storydriven campaign with more roleplay encounters

The concepts we have so far:
My fiance: The Trapsmith:
Somehow she found an interest in Rogues, which I find cool. The thing is: she doesn't like to use ToB-classes as dips because of flavour reasoning. A Swashbuckler dip for her would be ok but basically a more dips than rogue would not as she thinks this beats the purpose of playing a certain class (not archetypical role). She want's to utilize traps/disable them awesomely and be a backstabbing pain in the you know what i mean. Hiding/Sneaking ambushing enemies and so on. She doesn't want to be a bad fighter and so on.
The Trapsmith Prestige Class from Dungeonscape seems to fit this rather well and as such we'll probably buy this book pretty soon (or at l east have it as pdf). Another thing is she hates Halflings but wouldn't mind a whisper gnome because they are the more barbaric little brothers and sisters of the dwarves (a race she likes).
So far we got this:
Rogue 1/Swashbuckler1/Rogue+1/Swashbuckler+2/Rogue+1/Trapsmith5
As a Human or Changeling (which we would try to get approved along with the racial substitution) she would take able learner and skip the last rogue level. As whisper Gnome (which is atm the one we will probably use) we are unsure for the 1st level feat. 3rd level and 6th level could be Martial Spirit and Study to get Island of Blades and a Shadowhand Strike to take Shadow Blade at level 9.
This would net her:
A good way to get Sneak attack in. (Flanking thorugh island of blades).
The ability to plant traps.
Defenses against traps.
Int and Dex to damage.
A few Spells through Int.

Her damage at level 9 with a simple dagger would be 1d4(or 1d3) + 2d6 + str-mod + dex-mod + int-mod. Not the best she could do but certainly sufficient in this campaign and considering she likes the skills more.

Another way would be ignoring Shadow blade for craven and get Daring Outlaw but advance Rogue instead of Swashbuckler.

Probably trying to get TWF at first level, don't know if this is possible. (AFB right now).
If someone else wants to play this sort of char she probably goes for a Druid.

For me: The Bard/Crusader:
My greatest problem is... I can't decide:smallannoyed:. I was thinking about a Paladin-ish/Crusader-ish type of character for quite some time now...(about 4 years :smallamused:). But never came to really flesh him out. Now with the ToB I thought finally I can do it. But on the other hand... there is this "unspoken challenge".
So now I think I should try to be a Bard to show him that Bards can be awesome too. But sadly for most of the tricks we either don't have the books available.
A simple Bard4/Crusader(Or Warblade)1/Warchanter might be possible but feels a bit... unoriginal. Bard/Virtuoso/SublimeChord might be awesome for casting but won't make me a supportive melee. Bard4/Paladin[of freedom it has to be due to Bard]/Warchanter might be in the same vein but seems to be pushing it due to the archetype I have to take to make it work...and I would like to use Song of the White Raven.

Now if you have read any of my threads before you know that I am not that good an optimizer myself. I just know the tricks I read in handbooks/guides published by other users and I'm quite unfamiliar with casting (with prepared casting as a hindrace for me).

For my GF this should only be a refining, please tell me if there is something wrong with it or you have an idea how to make it better, feats that compliment handling traps and such stuff.

For me I need a more general look into it as the last bard I played died horribly due to his gimpiness. And... well I never really looked into them. After a bit of reading I'm just not sure anymore if I should go this route or just start buffing/supporting.

Your help in this matter will be appreciated and I hope to not have wasted your time.

Diovid

2013-01-15, 07:49 AM

I don't really have any ideas which would really improve on the power of your ideas, just some options you could consider for the Trapsmith.

Changelings, Humans and Whisper Gnomes are great of course but for a trapper an Earth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthKobolds) Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) (the updated version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) of course) might also be an idea. Kobolds have several benefits for a Trapper. They have a racial bonus to Craft (Trapmaking) and Search checks, they have access to the Kobold Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=3) substitution levels, they have access to the Kobold Paragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060127a) and they gain a larger benefit from the Extraordinary Trapsmith feat (Races of the Dragon).

Some feat ideas:
Apprentice (Craftsman) (Dungeon Master's Guide II)
Extraordinary Trapsmith (Races of the Dragon)
Trap Sensitivity (Dungeonscape)
Combat Tinkering (Dungeonscape)
Trap Engineer (Dungeonscape)

Some other ideas:
The Quick Fingers rogue alternative class feature (Dungeonscape).
The Pentrating Strike rogue alternative class feature (Dungeonscape).
The Combat Trapsmith prestige class (Complete Scoundrel).
1 level of the Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) base class for Motivate Intelligence.
1 or more levels of the Exemplar prestige class (Complete Adventurer).

Piggy Knowles

2013-01-15, 01:37 PM

Bard 4/Crusader 16 with Song of the White Raven is honestly pretty fantastic. It's one of my favorite support builds - simple, elegant, and able to act as tank, face and buffer all at once, and do fairly well in all three roles. My personal preference is to stick to charging maneuvers for damage and White Raven for support, and max my Inspire Courage as much as possible.

I'm also of the opinion that, on a character like this, regular inspire courage is a superior option to Dragonfire Inspiration. DFI is nice, but the attack boost from the standard version means your tanks (or you) can Power Attack more frequently, and makes iterative attacks way more likely to land. Of course, early on when your party doesn't have the BAB to sink into Power Attack and iterative attacks are a long way off, DFI is a huge damage boost, and with Lingering Song you can easily have both. So take it if you don't mind playing a dragonblooded character and you've got some spare feats, but don't think it's essential.

Fouredged Sword

2013-01-15, 04:29 PM

Trapsmith is a lot of fun, and I suggest swiftblade to finish it out.

Trapsmith gets 3rd level slots and the haste spell. You can prep haste in 3rd level spell slots to qualify for swiftblade.

Classes x / trapsmith 5 / arcane spellcasting class 1 / swiftblade 9 is great.

1-5 you are whatever you build for (in this case rogue / swashbuckler, though I would suggest rogue 1 / swashbuckler 1 / rogue 2 / swashbuckler 2 / spellthief 1 and net master spellthief for casting in light armor and better CL for trapsmith). Take craven for CL to sneak attack damage.

5-10 you are a trapsmith. Get a few +1 sizing heavy crossbows for traps. Also, craft alchemy is your friend, as are poisons.

At 11th you dip a spellcasting class to progress as a swiftblade. Something like beguiler is nice, as is wizard. Take something you want spells from.

12-19, here you start to get faster and faster. Concealment to allow you to go toe to toe with bruisers or hide anywhere (you can hide if you have concealment) and skirmish damage to augment your sneak attack damage. You start getting some minor spellcasting from advancing your second spellcasting class, use it for buffs and utility. Take a reserve feat for a touch attack at range for sneak attack (force damage is nice as it always works)

20 your capstone is an extra action every round. You get a free move or standard action. Use it to speed buff the party while running around killing stuff.

Krazzman

2013-01-16, 04:01 AM

Thanks for the responses.

First about the Trapsmith. The thing is we currently don't have dungeonscape, which I plan to change tonight. But even then I doubt her to like Kobolds. Or the DM allowing them for that matter.
I'll try to look into the feats you recommended.
So far her plan is Rogue 1/Swashbuckler1/Rogue x/maybe swashbuckler/Trapsmith. We aren't sure if the +int damage is worth it as it is precision damage and depends on her intellect score.
Additionally we search for a way to get Island of Blades (Tome of Battle Stance) without taking a level in swordsage or such but we might be forced to go: Rogue1/Swashbuckler1/Swordsage1/Rogue2/Trapsmith5.

To the Bardsader!:
The thing about Crusader 16 is... no advancement of IC. That's what I thought warchanter would be for. To get IC-bonuses and such song stuff.
I don't really know which route I should take, Cha-dex or Cha-str. Both have alluring advantages and disadvantages. I think starting with Sword'n'Board might be a good start. Feats are a mystery to me for now, except lingering song and song of the white raven I have no clue what to take. And if I should go with a Human.
The main Problem is probably getting books allowed/working with core + completes. Warchanter is in Comp War if I recollect correctly and the other way would probably go to as Buff/Caster/Controller-Bard instead of Melee-Buff-Bard with Sublime Chord (the only way to get better spells as a Bard). You can tack a level of mindbender to the latter one too...

I hope you can further help me with this.

Gwendol

2013-01-16, 04:25 AM

Bardadin with:
smite to song
devoted performer
initiate of milil

A bit over the top perhaps, but a fun concept.

Standard bardadin: bard4/pal2/warchanter

Krazzman

2013-01-16, 05:23 AM

Bardadin with:
smite to song
devoted performer
initiate of milil

A bit over the top perhaps, but a fun concept.

Standard bardadin: bard4/pal2/warchanter

Cool, but... smite to song is probably not available and initiate of milil wouldn't work (except if you know a way to count as a 4th level paladin).
The main selling point for Paladin is: Smite Evil, Detect evil and Cha to saves, the crusader would have maneuvers/Stances and Song of the White Raven.

It's a hard decision but multiclassing shouldn't be a problem as I'll try Paladin of Freedom to be available.

Gwendol

2013-01-16, 05:31 AM

Haha, yes. I didn't mean the three feats for that specific build though: the first is just a listing of available ones, and the other a more specific build (should have mentioned devoted performer as an enabling feat for the build.)

Paladin has spells, if you progress him long enough though, and a mount.

Krazzman

2013-01-16, 07:24 AM

Yeah, Paladin does have some nice goodies. As has the Crusader. That's why I can't really decide between the two of them. Paladin would give immunity to diseases and either fear or (i think dominate), mount, selfhealing and spells on the later levels as well as turning related feats as possible choices.

On another note: what are other strong builds for Bards? Assuming Core+Completes only?

Gwendol

2013-01-16, 07:28 AM

Well, one is listed above, strong fighting capability.

Straight bard is strong, with the right feats and spell choices, very "bardy".

Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso is very strong, focused on casting.

Fouredged Sword

2013-01-16, 07:54 AM

divine Bard 6 / Prc Paladin 3 /divine Bard x / Sublime chord 1 / Virtuoso x.

You get the bard spell casting with paladin spells, the mount and paladin goodies, +high level casting in your later levels.

Gwendol

2013-01-16, 08:03 AM

Oooh, nice! Very nice indeed.

Fouredged Sword

2013-01-16, 08:18 AM

There is a paladin/bard stacking feat (i think it is in a complete) that lets bard be lawful and stack with paladin for stuff. Can't remember what it's called though.

Gwendol

2013-01-16, 08:19 AM

Devoted performer: listed above.

Fouredged Sword

2013-01-16, 08:34 AM

I would be sorely tempted to take healing hymn as a ACF. Preform ranks to healing spells makes thing interesting when it heals an extra 23 points per target.

Piggy Knowles

2013-01-16, 09:54 AM

To the Bardsader!:
The thing about Crusader 16 is... no advancement of IC. That's what I thought warchanter would be for. To get IC-bonuses and such song stuff.

That's what Song of the White Raven is for - to allow your bard and crusader levels to stack for the purpose of IC. A bard 4/crusader 16 will have the same IC boost as a level 20 bard.

For feats, I'd start off with something like:

1- Extra Music, Melodic Casting/Dragonfire Inspiration
3- Song of the Heart
6- Song of the White Raven

If you're a Silverbrow and took DFI at first level, then you'll want Lingering Song at 9th. From there, pick up feats to support your fighting style, Extra Granted Maneuver, etc.

Also, people may try to steer you away from going sword and board. Overall they'd be right - the damage boost from wielding a weapon two handed is significantly greater than the defense boost a shield gives, and AC-based defense is frequently a loser's game in D&D. But crusaders are one of the few classes that can actually do OK with sword and board, if that's what you're into. They get some interesting shield maneuvers, and are less dependent upon Power Attack than many melee classes. You'd also have an extra benefit - as a bard, you'll have access to the bard spell list via spell trigger items, and a shield is an extra place to stick a wand chamber. I'd also look into the Shield Slam and Shield Charge feats, if this is your goal.

Krazzman

2013-01-16, 10:40 AM

That's what Song of the White Raven is for - to allow your bard and crusader levels to stack for the purpose of IC. A bard 4/crusader 16 will have the same IC boost as a level 20 bard.

For feats, I'd start off with something like:

1- Extra Music, Melodic Casting/Dragonfire Inspiration
3- Song of the Heart
6- Song of the White Raven

If you're a Silverbrow and took DFI at first level, then you'll want Lingering Song at 9th. From there, pick up feats to support your fighting style, Extra Granted Maneuver, etc.

Also, people may try to steer you away from going sword and board. Overall they'd be right - the damage boost from wielding a weapon two handed is significantly greater than the defense boost a shield gives, and AC-based defense is frequently a loser's game in D&D. But crusaders are one of the few classes that can actually do OK with sword and board, if that's what you're into. They get some interesting shield maneuvers, and are less dependent upon Power Attack than many melee classes. You'd also have an extra benefit - as a bard, you'll have access to the bard spell list via spell trigger items, and a shield is an extra place to stick a wand chamber. I'd also look into the Shield Slam and Shield Charge feats, if this is your goal.

Ah nice, didn't know about the dual progression. Except for Song of the Heart I know the feats but I'm wondering abit about Extra Music. I take the Song of the White Raven doesn't advance the usages I have per day, right?

Sword and board/cha-dex or cha-str and such stuff would be about the early levels where I should play for survivability. I read somewhere that after level 3 the Shield to ac is... not that much of a help. Although I think Crusader didnÄt have the Towershield line normally presented... so long I have to either fight defensively or life with a 16 in AC (Shield + Chainshirt) until I get mithril armor. Sword'n'Board additionally pictures the Defender better than THF else there are maneuver for shield uses.

Krazzman

2013-01-17, 09:18 AM

After speaking with my fiance she is sure that she doesn't want to focus on casting.

Would a practised spellcaster help her to get 9th level spellcasting (although limited to the 3 levels trapsmith allows)? As far as I read it, it should work but haven't used/read the feat for a long time.

Sadly I don't think Song of the Heart is available because I only found it in a Eberron Sourcebook.

On another note...
there are 3 "ways" I can handle this without too much fudging:
1. Pure Bard with the right feats as Gwendol put it, but despite Lingering Song, what should I take? (I never really played a Caster in 3.5)

2. Bardadin/Bardsader, Bardlevels with Paladin/Crusader dashed in and maybe adding a bit of Warchanter.

3. Bard+casting Prestige Classes. Mindbender/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord.

For Bardsader the Feats are more or less clear, 6thlevel is Song of the White Raven(or one of those milil-feats), 1st Level is Melodic Casting. Filling with Combatenhancing feats or "utility" feats.

But for the caster feats... well no clue what is considered good for bards. And what spells to take... Sublime Chord let's me grab this Evard's spell... but that is a long way till there. If there is no healer I might take up Lesser Vigor but feel that this could be a waste of resources depending on the availability of Wands.

Fouredged Sword

2013-01-17, 09:53 AM

Metamagic song, trade music uses for free metamagic. Nice for stuff like extend and chain.

Gwendol

2013-01-17, 10:06 AM

For option one you want Melodic casting, very early on. Words of Creation (BoED) may be available as well, instead of Song of the Heart. From song to spell lets you use songs to cast more spells, not sure its the wisest of actions, but if you take extra songs as well it gives some more flexibility.

Other notable things would be to use the Bardic Knack ACF (replaces Lore)
Then there are the songs that can be replaced or switched around:
Healing hymn (replaces Fascinate)
Spellbreaker song (instead of countersong)
Hymn of fortification (instead of the generally useless inspire competence song)

Spellcasting prodigy may help casting without having to invest too much in CHA.
Collector of stories skill trick is very useful.

I'm sure there are tons of other tips on spells, skills, and feats!

Krazzman

2013-01-17, 10:53 AM

Fouredged Sword

2013-01-17, 11:02 AM

Bards can get away with a cha that is 16 or 19 based on if they want sublime chord for cha based 9ths. Buffs don't care about your modifier. If they want to be a charmer, then their stat matters more, but if you are a combat buffer you can always cast glibness if you need to lie.

Gwendol

2013-01-17, 11:02 AM

Yes, but a bard isn't a wizard: still typically needs some INT, DEX, and possibly strength if going for a non-finesse build. And CON is always important. On the other hand, bards don't need a very high CHA to still be effective.