5th member for inexp. group (3.5)

[Siltharon]

Well the title says a lot.
Just some background: Since I'm abroad right now and haven't had the opportunity to play D&D for some time I asked my brother if I could join his current campaign via Skype and he allowed me to do so.

Now I'm not really sure what I want / should play for the group constellation and hoped you guys could suggest something. Also feel free to share your experience with certain classes or combinations.

Informations about group, allowed material and thoughts on my side:
Group: mage, cleric, warblade, bard

allowed: pretty much everything BUT I will not abuse most things on purpose (see thoughts)

thoughts: well thing is ... I am by far the most experienced player in this campaign and though the others probably gonna have strong characters they will have them because my brother suggested certain prestige classes or combinations to go with -> I have a gentlemen's agreement with my brother to not make the others be useless or to break the game in a mature way
So lets start from another point of view: basic charakter roles
we got arcane, divine, melee and sup/skill monkey (I know that the cleric covers already 3 roles but since they are beginners charakter opt. isn't so important)

thoughts on my part: I already thought about Factotum (though I'm not really sure if I'd like to play one right now) or psion (always good to have / I think my brother would allow the erudite but I don't really want to play one since we are in a low opt. campaign and in this case I prefer to play a more focused char) but I seriously am not sure about that

racewise I'd probably go with a Sharakim (RoD 102) just for the flavour. I know they are considered one of the weaker +1LA but since la buyoff is allowed, my brother allowed me to ignore the -2 on dex (therefor just the -2 ch) and I'm anyways more exp. that shouldn't be that much of a problem
oh and we have a 40 points buy

So share your thoughts and if you have buildsuggestions or classsuggestions tell me.

[only1doug]

take something awful and optimise it to high mid levels to make it on par with the group?

[rockdeworld]

If you want to empower your allies, I remember... Shneeky I think, writing about when he used Wizard/War Weaver to buff his inexperienced allies and help them survive encounters they would have otherwise gotten killed by.

It also sounds like your party is missing a tank, so You said they had melee, but you might still help them by going Crusader.

[Bonzai]

If you want to fullfill a gap in the party, I'd try and take something with the ability to detect traps. Perhaps a ranged scout build? Brings ranged damage support, as well as fullfilling the trapmonkey role.

[BowStreetRunner]

How about a Ranger with the Trap Expert ACF from Dungeonscape and a TWF combat build. This gives your party another melee combatant as well, which can be important in order to allow the mage and bard to focus on their strengths.

[Siltharon]

take something awful and optimise it to high mid levels to make it on par with the group?
well I personally don't like that since it would mean I have to play a really straight forward or boring class, that I try to bring to a playable grade (aka samurai)


If you want to empower your allies, I remember... Shneeky I think, writing about when he used Wizard/War Weaver to buff his inexperienced allies and help them survive encounters they would have otherwise gotten killed by.

It also sounds like your party is missing a tank, so You said they had melee, but you might still help them by going Crusader.
that actually sounds like a great idea ... thank you! I'll try to find the build

I'm in general still a bigger fan of psionics though ... any suggestions how to build sup psion?:smalleek:

also the crusader is a good idea. I'll read over it.


If you want to fullfill a gap in the party, I'd try and take something with the ability to detect traps. Perhaps a ranged scout build? Brings ranged damage support, as well as fullfilling the trapmonkey role.
that's true ... one of the reasons why I thought about going factotum

another option would be taking able learner (might be available to sharakim via houseruling) going 1 level factotum and the psion or whatever -> semi skillmonkey (at least enough to be the trapfinder)

I'll also never really looked into the scout class, so I'll give it a shot. thanks for the suggestion :smallsmile:

[Vaz]

Goliath Chain tripper?
Ninja Skill Monkey/Trap Identifier?
Incarnum user?
Soul Knife/Bow

[Siltharon]

How about a Ranger with the Trap Expert ACF from Dungeonscape and a TWF combat build. This gives your party another melee combatant as well, which can be important in order to allow the mage and bard to focus on their strengths.

thanks for the tip and you're right ... it would actually fit really good into the party. Only thing is I don't really like Rangers ... this whole nature / striding concept kinda creeps me out. And I also feel like with the wb and cl we already have quite good meely capacity though one more would be great I guess

I just remember our last campaign where the mage got chopped to peaces though we had 2 melees

[Telonius]

How about an Artificer? They're one of the most potentially powerful classes in the game, but their power really depends on the amount of paperwork you want to get into. They also have trapfinding, are great at saving money for large groups, and give you lots of ways to make the rest of the party awesome.

In terms of flavor, one of the Sharakim's defining traits is that they want to prove they're better than orcs. Being able to make beautiful, useful, and magical things would fit right in with that. Also goes right along with the puppy-ish trait - gives him a reason that he'd be hanging around the adventurers and making all this stuff for them.

[Zanthy1]

Well as it appears, you only have 1 front line fighter, the war blade. Now that is not generally a problem, but as some previous posts mentioned, a second melee combatant will be very helpful, especially so that your arcane casters can feel safe in their blasting. The cleric can do this, but with a d8 HD, it may be better to not have him in the very front. (Note: I do not know the HD for warblade lol). If the cleric stayed in the back with the bard and mage, casting his divine spells but also providing support for them should they come under attack, make a character who will help the war blade hold the line.

What about Dragon Shaman or Marshall? (PHB2 and Miniatures respectively) They are both able melee combatants, and their auras can greatly help your allies.

[rockdeworld]

I'm in general still a bigger fan of psionics though ... any suggestions how to build sup psion?:smalleek:
My own computer's automatic updates ate my post. I'm not as familiar with psionic support classes, except to say go Egoist (or Spell-to-Power Erudite) for buffing.

[Monodominant]

Rogue!

All newbie parties need a rogue.

Using your experience you can make him somewhat optimised and you can always be useful with all the search, trap detection, sneaking etc.

UMD will solve any other issues and sneak attacks will give a decent damage output in many things.

If you really want to do psionics then try Psionic Rogue instead to have that angle covered as well.

[Vaz]

Erudite is considered Tier 1 for a reason. Might be a bit overpowering at Damage or Buffing; which considering you have a Cleric, Mage, and Bard are all there for those reasons, you might be stepping on toes.

Hence my suggestion of a Spiked Chain user. Theu can Wall, debuff enemies (as opposed to Buffing Allies), etc.

[Siltharon]

Erudite is considered Tier 1 for a reason. Might be a bit overpowering at Damage or Buffing; which considering you have a Cleric, Mage, and Bard are all there for those reasons, you might be stepping on toes.

Hence my suggestion of a Spiked Chain user. Theu can Wall, debuff enemies (as opposed to Buffing Allies), etc.
@Vaz: for the first post: yeah the chain tripper might be an option. currently looking through several pages for it. I'd prefer to avoid the Ninja though since I kinda don't like it / same for Soul Knife/Bow (also really weak and boring class) ... Incarnum might be an option though
second: I don't really want to play an Erudite for exactly the reasons you mentioned ... good option in general, but me playing an Erudite in this campaign would force me to play bad on purpose or rendering the other characters almost useless


How about an Artificer? They're one of the most potentially powerful classes in the game, but their power really depends on the amount of paperwork you want to get into. They also have trapfinding, are great at saving money for large groups, and give you lots of ways to make the rest of the party awesome.

Thanks for the thoughts! There are two points against the artificer though. First my brother doesn't like to make the other players wait for me while I craft items (though I probably could talk him into it) and second I personally am not a big fan of Artificers (if I have to play him if you know what I mean :smallbiggrin: ) / but good to say you thought about the Sharakim and I agree that it would be a good story to start with


What about Dragon Shaman or Marshall? (PHB2 and Miniatures respectively) They are both able melee combatants, and their auras can greatly help your allies.
I tryed Marshall once before and I haven't really enjoyed playing it ... felt like you could achieve way more with a sup- oriented crusader // Dragon Shaman on the other hand gets replaced by on feat -> draconic aura rendering the class itself almost useless (also sup-oriented crusader/bard would be better)


Rogue!

All newbie parties need a rogue.

Using your experience you can make him somewhat optimised and you can always be useful with all the search, trap detection, sneaking etc.
haha right ... the rogue :smallamused: / Psionic rouge is actually a good idea... haven'T thought about it yet. A well build rouge ist definitely viable but maybe a melee or buff/sup would be a better fit


Some things I thought about in the meantime:

Spiked Chain tripper (thanks for the suggestion .... might even work with a martial artist but would probably make the wb feel less useful)
[ah btw the wb focuses on twf ... making a strength focused figther a good option]

Ardent(more sup focused psion .... maybe going into a houseruled changed version of war weaver?)
or Psion (focusing on debuffing)

Crusader (well obviously sup / tank in one package)

Psionic Rouge?

[Fouredged Sword]

If you can't decide what to play, how about everything?

Factotum 2 / crusader 2 / Factotum 1 / chameleon 10 / crusader 5

You have good int synergy and plenty of skill points. You are not a squishy after level 3 with stone power and a delay damage pool. Take the healing stance/strikes and keep the warblade alive. You get int to just about everything.

Focus on being second melee and picking your ability focus to back up whatever party member needs help at the time. Take enough skill points in search, disable device, hide and move silently that you can scout/trapfind.

[rockdeworld]

Erudite is considered Tier 1 for a reason. Might be a bit overpowering at Damage or Buffing
I disagree, I don't think you can be too good at buffing your teammates. If you do it right, they're the heroes. The reason behind StP Erudite is because psions in general are very self-focused: they don't have a lot of buffs for other people, nor healing (except the Egoist's Vigor/Empathic Transfer combo, which can actually be fairly effective). By accessing spells you get to be a psionic character and have good buffs.

Note: that's all in core. Complete Psionic may have added more buffs, I don't know.

[Diovid]

If you can't decide what to play, how about everything?

Factotum 2 / crusader 2 / Factotum 1 / chameleon 10 / crusader 5

You have good int synergy and plenty of skill points. You are not a squishy after level 3 with stone power and a delay damage pool. Take the healing stance/strikes and keep the warblade alive. You get int to just about everything.

Focus on being second melee and picking your ability focus to back up whatever party member needs help at the time. Take enough skill points in search, disable device, hide and move silently that you can scout/trapfind.
No no no, if you want a character that's good at everything, try:

Changeling Rogue 1 / Factotum 4 / Chameleon 10 / Master of Masks 5 with the Changeling Rogue substitution level.

thanks for the tip and you're right ... it would actually fit really good into the party. Only thing is I don't really like Rangers ... this whole nature / striding concept kinda creeps me out.
So play one (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) of the two (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er) variants of Urban Ranger with the above mentioned Trap Expert alternative class feature.

[Psyren]

OP: Have you looked at Psychic Rogue? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) Your group could use a trap-guy, you want to be psionic, and you can help your party in all kinds of fun ways (e.g. helping them all sneak past some guards by making it dark and muting their footsteps.) You can also do a lot of damage in combat as well, combining rays with your sneak attacks, summoning an Astral Construct to flank with, or debuffing foes with Grease/Entangling Ectoplasm.

Check the guide in my sig for more. (/shamelessplug)

[Siltharon]

OP: Have you looked at Psychic Rogue? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) Your group could use a trap-guy, you want to be psionic, and you can help your party in all kinds of fun ways (e.g. helping them all sneak past some guards by making it dark and muting their footsteps.) You can also do a lot of damage in combat as well, combining rays with your sneak attacks, summoning an Astral Construct to flank with, or debuffing foes with Grease/Entangling Ectoplasm.

Check the guide in my sig for more. (/shamelessplug)

You know I actually think it's gonna be one. Since it's "just" tier 3 I can semi-optimize it anyways and I like the idea of a psionic rouge style charakter

Just a few questions:
would it be in theory possible to play a more str focused pr? since I'm thinking about playing a sharakim anyways and even if may brother houserules that the race hasn't got a dex malus it might be a good idea
and how should I set the attributes in this cas (40 point buy --- pretty badass)

thanks to everybody for the suggestions anyways -> if they were just for letting me realize what I don't want to play :)

[limejuicepowder]

Just a few questions:
would it be in theory possible to play a more str focused pr? since I'm thinking about playing a sharakim anyways and even if may brother houserules that the race hasn't got a dex malus it might be a good idea
and how should I set the attributes in this cas (40 point buy --- pretty badass)

thanks to everybody for the suggestions anyways -> if they were just for letting me realize what I don't want to play :)

I'm not familiar with the PR, but I assume it's similar enough to a regular rogue that a str-focused one would be easy. When I think of a str-rogue, I think of a more thuggish individual who could be confused with a fighter - a fighter with lots of underhanded tricks (in this case, psionic tricks).

Just take melee feats. TWF and craven are great places to start, along with some tumble skills. With a high str and flanking bonuses, you should be able to eviscerate anyone who isn't SA immune in fairly short order. After that I would throw feats/powers in to survivability and BFC so you don't get stomped.

[Psyren]

My guide has stat priorities and point-buy spreads. The main thing is making sure you get a 14 in Wis, both to help your will save and so you can get Psionic Meditation.

You can do strength-focused if you really want but I personally think those points are better off in Int and Dex. Str just isn't that important for them especially when you're attacking with blistering rays or shaving off the enemy's stats with Mind Cripple. By contrast, you can never have enough Int, no not even then.

For 40 PB I would personally do - 8 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 18 INT, 14 WIS, 10 CHA.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want some more damage, you can swap out your strength mad for some shadow hand love. Weapon Finesse, Shadow blade and assassins stance are only a swordsage dip and a few feats away. 2d6 extra sneak attack and dex to attack rolls and damage make strength much less appealing. You also pick up wis to ac in light armor. Not bad if you are already sitting on a 14 wis. Makes a +wis item much more useful.

[Siltharon]

If you want some more damage, you can swap out your strength mad for some shadow hand love. Weapon Finesse, Shadow blade and assassins stance are only a swordsage dip and a few feats away. 2d6 extra sneak attack and dex to attack rolls and damage make strength much less appealing. You also pick up wis to ac in light armor. Not bad if you are already sitting on a 14 wis. Makes a +wis item much more useful.
Well thing is if you want to go that route as a psychic rogue you have to cut shorter on some of the neatest tricks of the class and psionics in general, though the swordsagedip might be a good idea

So here is basically what I came up with after reading through Psyren's (great handbooks btw / would be great though if you could add more LA-races and templates (ie Dark-template from ToM)) Handbook for Psychic rogues and several other general guides for rogues.
I realized pretty fast that even though I'd like to be a Sharakim once it just isn't a good choice for the PR and therefor going the strengthoriented path is (mainly due to the already MAD PR) also a bad idea.

Some general infos + thoughts on feats and dips

Race: most likely Tiefling // others: Xeph, Strongheart Halfling (potentially with the Dark-template)
Stats (after race): St 10 Ge 16 Ko 14 In 18 (20) We 14 Ch 10 (I usually hate having less than 12 in strength or charisma due to my playstyle but there is pretty much no way to avoid this here)

well first level obviously Psicrystal Affinity (if Strongheart: Hidden Talent or whichever feat I need else)
planned feats (in random order): Weaponfinesse (level 3 obv.), multiple Expanded Knowledge as necessary, Darkstalker, probably Shadowblade (at level 9 if so but not sure since I'm already featstarved), Psionic Meditation, I really love Up the Walls (I know it's per se not good but flavourwise it just fits really great with the psionic rouge)

multic.: It's just a possibility but I'm thinking about talking at least 1 level in Swordsage ... maybe 2
for example taking swordsage at cl 2 would give me great early game utility/dmg + island of blades! ... a second level at cl 8 or 9 would allow me to take assassins stance an choose beetwen them as appropriate. (might be worth it) ... oh and + 2 ac and +1 init isn't bad neither
the one level Shadowmind is a good idea too

Thanks to everybody for helping me and I appreciate any other suggestions. :smallsmile:

[Vaz]

I disagree, I don't think you can be too good at buffing your teammates. If you do it right, they're the heroes. The reason behind StP Erudite is because psions in general are very self-focused: they don't have a lot of buffs for other people, nor healing (except the Egoist's Vigor/Empathic Transfer combo, which can actually be fairly effective). By accessing spells you get to be a psionic character and have good buffs.

Note: that's all in core. Complete Psionic may have added more buffs, I don't know.

There was the rest of the quote which you missed out. I agree you can't buff "too much"; but relegating a Cleric to Healbot and a Bard to Party Face (unless they go Dragonfire Inspiration Route) on your first couple of playdates when you're the outsider isn't going to make friends.

[Malroth]

Wand based artificer focusing on buffs