Great Videogames Not Enough People Have Played

[soir8]

We all know the classics; games like Ocarina Of Time, Metal Gear Solid, Mario 64, Halo, Resident Evil and the like. But there are masterpieces out there that just don't get the recognition they deserve, and this means there are avid game lovers who have missed out on an amazing experience and don't even realize it.

The purpose of this thread is to put those overlooked gems in the spotlight. If there's a game you rave about that nobody you've raved to has ever heard of, tell us about it, and why it's so great.

I'll start off with two of my all-time favourites; both superior titles, but overshadowed by the bigger names in their genre.

The first is Chrono Trigger, an RPG that I consider better than any Final Fantasy game. Innovative combat, diverse and unique characters (what other game makes a gallant frog knight so badass?), a complex story that uses time travel in a way that really affects the game's outcome, and multiple endings.

The second is what I consider to be one of the best games ever; Gunstar Heroes. Forget Contra, and don't let the cartoonish style put you off; this game has everything you could possibly want in a side-scrolling action shooter. Endless waves of enemies and insane bosses match up against powerful player characters to make an extremely challenging and fun experience.

[Avilan the Grey]

Despite my lack of enjoyment for Point And Click Adventure Games:

Kingdom O' Magic. Why this didn't become a runaway hit at the time I will never understand.

[Morbis Meh]

Suikoden II.... a very rare treasure that very very few in my circle have heard of and never played. It is 100 times better than any final fantasy game and allows for a much larger degree of party custimization. Also they have a truly evil villain to deal with... 'DIE PIGS!" I also just love the game series in general since you get to see the entire world evolve and learn more about each nations histroy while learning about the True Runes and their origin.

Also Shadow Hearts: Covenant because Yuri is all sorts of amazing... Dark game with interesting battle mechanics, great story, great characters and great humor

[willpell]

American McGee's Alice. Easily the most intellectual shooter I can think of. Mind screw plot, tough bosses, and when you line up a jump, you get a pair of little girly shoeprints that show you where you're gonna land. Never has there been so much of an intersection between "precious" and "kick-butt". (I can't speak as to the sequel, having seen only a snippet of it on YouTube.)

[Aran Thule]

Star Control 2
An epic in humour and design.
With only your spaceship and a lone escort you arrive in the solar system to find out why there has been no contact from earth for the last twenty years.
Exploration, wacky alien races and combat that puts asteroids to shame.

So loved by its fans they updated the source code and made it free to download:

http://sc2.sourceforge.net/downloads.php

[soir8]

Despite my lack of enjoyment for Point And Click Adventure Games:

Kingdom O' Magic. Why this didn't become a runaway hit at the time I will never understand.

Never been a fan of the genre myself. Played one once, eventually had to consult a guide because in order to progress I had to know which exact pixel to click on. Ridiculous. I'll give this one a look though. What is it that makes it appeal to you?

Edit: ok, I just read the game's wikipedia page. I now see the appeal.

[Tome]

Zone of the Enders and The World Ends With You. Both fairly unknown games by big names, both incredibly fun and innovative.

[Triaxx]

Fallout Tactics. It got stuck as not being fallout 3, nor sticking to the lore so it kind of got overlooked on that, instead of being judged on it's own merits which are really quite awesome.

[Badgerish]

Oni, by Bungie
It's a 3rd person fighting/adventure game (with limited guns). The control system is Spot.<redacted>.On. when you play other games you notice the difference.

It's also got a simple but well made story/characters, good/great voice acting, great environments (the box has a selling point "levels designed by actual architects" which I laughed at, at first. but in play you will notice how well it works) and a nice sense of humour (turn subtitles on, at least for the Deadly Brain fight.)


I second Gunstar Heroes, best shooter on the Mega Drive.

[Mx.Silver]

Also Shadow Hearts: Covenant because Yuri is all sorts of amazing... Dark game with interesting battle mechanics, great story, great characters and great humor
This.
Also the first one, which never really caught-on. Probably because it got drowned in the hype surrounding FFX's release.

[The Succubus]

I'm going to chime in with my usual vote for Ice Pick Lodge's The Void.

[DiscipleofBob]

The first is Chrono Trigger, an RPG that I consider better than any Final Fantasy game. Innovative combat, diverse and unique characters (what other game makes a gallant frog knight so badass?), a complex story that uses time travel in a way that really affects the game's outcome, and multiple endings.

As much as I love Final Fantasies, I'll have to second this since Chrono Trigger might as well be another Final Fantasy. High quality and still looks good even today. Not to mention the replay value.


Suikoden II.... a very rare treasure that very very few in my circle have heard of and never played. It is 100 times better than any final fantasy game and allows for a much larger degree of party custimization. Also they have a truly evil villain to deal with... 'DIE PIGS!" I also just love the game series in general since you get to see the entire world evolve and learn more about each nations histroy while learning about the True Runes and their origin.

Woah, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Suikoden II was a great game sure, and it really needs to come out on PSN instead of just its predecessor. Luca Blight is one of my favorite video game villains of all time, but it still has a lot of flaws. The sheer amount of recruitable characters, while necessary for the mythology behind the game, means there's just too much maintenance and missables.

In the category of games everyone needs to play, Psychonauts is the single best game of its genre, if not best game period.

[mistformsquirrl]

Hrm let's see here:

Freedom Force - Strategy game based around superheroes in a loveably cheesy universe - awesome thing being you can make your own heroes and powers! I will grant, making your own heroes requires some artistic ability (or downloading a character you like) - but anyone can make their own powers, which is awesome.

Can't vouch for Freedom Force vs the Third Reich - I have it but haven't gotten around to it. Still love the original game though.

Mech Commander - RTS based on Battletech; but unlike most RTSes you build your force before battle, then send them in and spend the entire time trying to accomplish your missions. It was, imo, awesome. Especially the whole salvage-as-resources element.

[Hunter Noventa]

Count me in behind Suikoden 2, both for people playing it and it coming out on the PSN.

Speaking of games that are available on PSN, Xenogears is an amazing game hampered by budget cuts that went to Final Fantasy 8. But every JRPG fan should play it.

[Surrealistik]

Fallout Tactics. It got stuck as not being fallout 3, nor sticking to the lore so it kind of got overlooked on that, instead of being judged on it's own merits which are really quite awesome.

This. Loved the multiplayer too, though the point costing was all kinds of flawed. In the lower point formats though, it was lots of fun and relatively balanced (as opposed to being centralized around the Voodoo drug and Pancors).

I _really_ hope to see a contemporary remake of the game with balanced costing and multiplayer.

[Psyren]

Oni, by Bungie
It's a 3rd person fighting/adventure game (with limited guns). The control system is Spot.<redacted>.On. when you play other games you notice the difference.

I second Gunstar Heroes, best shooter on the Mega Drive.

Love both of these.

From last-gen, I can't sing the praises of the Otogi games enough. Great action and stunning visuals for their time.

From current-gen, a game I love to recommend is Vanquish. It's a very underrated and very balls-to-the-wall action-packed TPS.

[Eldan]

In the category of games everyone needs to play, Psychonauts is the single best game of its genre, if not best game period.

Got it in the steam sale. Can't get into it. The setting isn't really drawing me in, and my incredible suckitude at Jump and Runs prevents me from getting evne through the first few levels. Even what I assume was meant to be a tutorial level (the warzone in the drill sergeant's head) had me dying over and over again for hours. Or I had to do some obstacles twenty times.

really, should have expected that. I know I can't play Jump and Run/platformer games. But still.

[Weezer]

I'm going to chime in with my usual vote for Ice Pick Lodge's The Void.

The Void, of what I've played, is really amazing. I'm not far in, only like 3 hours (I blame it on my inability to play anything not DF or Paradox for extended periods of time, it's really getting to be a problem), but I've never played anything like it before.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Has nobody offered up Alpha Protocol, yet? People need to offer up Alpha Protocol.
And then somebody needs to make an Alpha Protocol 2.

[Avilan the Grey]

Edit: ok, I just read the game's wikipedia page. I now see the appeal.

:smallbiggrin:

I second Freedom Force and Freedom Force vs The Third Reich.

[Vauron]

For those of you who enjoyed Suikoden 2, I suggest you try Exit Fate. (http://site.scfworks.com/?page_id=10) It has a very similar feel to Suikoden 2, but it is in an original world, and its magic system is kinda reminiscent of Chrono Cross.

Speaking of the Chrono series, I have to ask, why in the world do you think Chrono Trigger fits in this thread?

[Avilan the Grey]

Has nobody offered up Alpha Protocol, yet? People need to offer up Alpha Protocol.
And then somebody needs to make an Alpha Protocol 2.

I have read about it a lot, but the bad seems to always overpowering the good: Lousy combat, really bad romance, about as buggy as Vampire: Masquerade... Fun idea, though.

[DiscipleofBob]

For those of you who enjoyed Suikoden 2, I suggest you try Exit Fate. (http://site.scfworks.com/?page_id=10) It has a very similar feel to Suikoden 2, but it is in an original world, and its magic system is kinda reminiscent of Chrono Cross.

Speaking of the Chrono series, I have to ask, why in the world do you think Chrono Trigger fits in this thread?

Because not enough people (ie. everyone) has played it of course.

[Weezer]

I have read about it a lot, but the bad seems to always overpowering the good: Lousy combat, really bad romance, about as buggy as Vampire: Masquerade... Fun idea, though.

I've played about half of it, and I came to the same conclusion. The combat was god-awful and get's shattered into a million pieces by a lowish level pistol ability. Also, dialogue wheels have always bugged me, I want to know what my character is going to say before I click it.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

The second is what I consider to be one of the best games ever; Gunstar Heroes. Forget Contra, and don't let the cartoonish style put you off; this game has everything you could possibly want in a side-scrolling action shooter. Endless waves of enemies and insane bosses match up against powerful player characters to make an extremely challenging and fun experience.

Seconding this super-hard. If you've ever enjoyed a Contra or a Metal Slug title definitely check this one out.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I have read about it a lot, but the bad seems to always overpowering the good: Lousy combat, really bad romance, about as buggy as Vampire: Masquerade... Fun idea, though.

To be honest, I've never had an issue with bugs in my half-dozen plus playthroughs. I think once there was a guard who saw and killed me and he was instantly aware of my location immediately upon restarting at the previous checkpoint and then proceeded to host an encore performance of his murder-the-PC extravaganza, but the issue neatly fixed itself on the next reload.

Combat-wise... well, the SMGs are big bags of useless, and the pistol is godmode levels of broken, but there's a mechanic in the game where your hold the cross-hairs steady in order to give the actual character time to aim, decreasing bullet spread and increasing damage which I guess pisses off the twitchy CoD players who can blow the wings off a fly in a moment's notice, but this aim time is reduced when you level up your weapon skill, like it should be.

The romance? Well, that's never really been a selling point for me, and I wouldn't call them so much romances as sexual culminations of inter-character relationships. Hell, one of the "Romances" ends up with the PC being all-but raped (No. I'm serious.), and that scene is actually difficult (Or, at least, counter-intuitive) to trigger, because of the character in question.
It is of note though, that the PC is capable of going full James Bond and completing all the seduction scenes in one playthrough. I have it, too. Other seduced characters mention the other seduction scenes, even.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Terraria (http://store.steampowered.com/app/105600/?snr=1_7_suggest__13). I'm going to guess that at least 50% of its playerbase learned of it through this (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL56B73C4D478D9A49), directly or indirectly (i.e., word of mouth/post). Seriously, just look at the number of views on some of those vids.

Arma II (http://store.steampowered.com/sub/4638/) (note: actually consists of two separate games. Combined Operations is the bundled version). It's not exactly unknown, but it is far less known than the closest equivalent on a console, Battlefield 3.

[MLai]

Man, nobody buys Arma II to play the normal game.

My nomination: Saturn's Guardian Heroes

The ultimate classic Beat 'Em Up. Combining various genres before other devs ever thought of it. (http://www.thegamingvault.com/2011/04/hey-make-a-new-guardian-heroes-game/)

[ArlEammon]

War Wind

The Shamali, The Eeagra, The Obblinox, The Tharoon.

The Shamali are Shao Lin, Australian Aborigine hybrid, The Eeagra are living plants/bushes, the Obblinox are like Space Orcs/Dinosaur bideds, and the Tharoon are like Snake men.

One of the best games I ever played. It had one sequal, that's it.

[Zevox]

I'd say Persona 3 and 4, but I'm pretty sure everyone would see that coming, since I take every opportunity I get to advertise those. :smalltongue:

I'll second The World Ends With You. There's very little that makes me understand why Square-Enix is as well-regarded as they are (or were, depending on who you ask), since the Dragon Quest games have been handled by Level-5 for some time now and I haven't been impressed by the Final Fantasy series, but that one I think actually qualifies. It's a genuinely great title which is also very original, in both story and gameplay. Probably the best game from Square-Enix that I've played, really (and yes, that includes Chrono Trigger).

I'll add Radiant Historia, one of the best games on the DS, a time-travel focused fantasy RPG with some pretty creative combat mechanics that actually use small-scale time-travel to control turn order.

Also, Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Calibur, a great strategy RPG on the N64. Can't honestly say that I've ever seen another game quite like that one.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Man, nobody buys Arma II to play the normal game.

Well why would they? Once you get into multiplayer (the best part), it's basically a giant sandbox for mods and DLC. ACE2 is a particularly good mod for increasing overall realism, while still maintaining some streamlining stuff.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'd say Persona 3 and 4, but I'm pretty sure everyone would see that coming, since I take every opportunity I get to advertise those. :smalltongue:

As soon as they exist for the 360, I am all over 'im.

[Makensha]

Has nobody offered up Alpha Protocol, yet? People need to offer up Alpha Protocol.
If it is any consolation, I specifically decided to not say Alpha Protocol. A couple good ideas buried beneath an ocean of problems does not a great game make.

Medal of Honor: European Assault was definitely underrated.

Come to think of it, most games I'm thinking of are not great games not enough people played, rather games with good ideas (and possibly good games) that designers should be forced to play before designing games within a certain genre.

Here's a list of some good and some bad games that were financial failures. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in_video_gaming#Video_ and_computer_game_software_failures)

[Tengu_temp]

Chrono Trigger, overshadowed? It's one of the best-known SNES titles of all time.

Here, have some PS2 games:

Okami - this game takes the kinda-stale Zelda action adventure formula, polishes it and adds several new innovative elements, which results in something that's both interesting and really fun to play. On top of that, the aesthetics that are made to mimic classical Japanese paintings are really great, and the game is chock-full of fun characters and moments that range from silly and funny to heartwarming to absolutely freakin' badass. It's a pretty well-known game, but mostly as a cult classic, and it deserves so much more.

Ico - a horned boy and a mysterious girl explore a giant, hauntingly empty castle, solving puzzles and fighting off shadow creatures on the way. This one is all about atmosphere, and even more so about your emotional attachment to the two main characters. You really get close to Ico and Yorda, and even though most of the game is pretty much one huge escort mission, it doesn't become annoying - if anything, these elements serve to build more trust between you and the characters. It's hard to describe the appeal of this game without sounding like a huge sap, but play it and you'll understand.

Killer7 - as a game, this one is pretty mediocre, mostly because the control system is overly unintuitive and takes way too long to get used to, and even then it's kinda awkward. But as an experience, it's absolutely mind-blowing. I've never seen something that better fits the definition of mindscrew: most things are described with that because they contain random elements the writer didn't think through, or because the audience didn't understand the story. But Killer7 is different - everything is consistent and there is obviously an explanation for what's going on, but it's all so soaked in symbolism (real symbolism, not faux one) and complex that you really need to sit down and think. And everything that makes you think is a great thing in my book.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ico

AKA sequel to Shadow of the Colossus.

Although Ico might've been made first... which makes SotC the prequel.

[Triaxx]

I have to say. I played perhaps 20 hours of Chrono Trigger only to end up bored beyond all reason.

Speaking of 64 games that were awesome but underplayed, Quest 64 is another one hampered by being cell-shaded. It was very fun for what it was, but man was it hard.

I also still enjoy Aidyn Chronicles: The First Mage. Never mind the reviews that suggest you could put an eye out with the main characters hair. (Which is totally true.)

[Zevox]

Speaking of 64 games that were awesome but underplayed, Quest 64 is another one hampered by being cell-shaded. It was very fun for what it was, but man was it hard.
If you thought it was hard, it just means you didn't invest enough in the Earth or Water elements. You could break that game completely by having enough of the former to use Barrier and enough of the latter to use Magic Drain. Plus along the way you got all the offensive magic you'd ever need, particularly in the form of Avalanche, Water Pillar, and Walking Water. And healing magic, not that you'd ever need it once you picked up Barrier.

Yeah, I played that game when I was younger, and found it fun then because all I really cared about was that it let me kill monsters with magic, but in retrospect, it's really not very good. The combat is completely broken - either way too hard if you ignore Earth and Water or way too easy if you don't - and the story is barely there and poorly told. Not to mention things like the McGuffins that you spend most of the game collecting doing all of nothing.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'd say Persona 3 and 4, but I'm pretty sure everyone would see that coming, since I take every opportunity I get to advertise those. :smalltongue:

I also don't think it counts, since Persona 4 is widely regarded as one of the best PS2 games, and it sold ridiculously well when it was re-released on the Vita.

Anyway, if we're naming games we always name, I think I'll join in and plug Elite Beat Agents. The graphics are starting to really show their age, but it's seriously one of the best rhythm games I've ever played. Scratch that, it IS the best rhythm game I've ever played. It may not be as big and fancy as Guitar Hero or Rock Band, but it's got that quirky charm that keeps me up at night wishing there were a sequel (excepting Osu! and Ouendan! 2).

[Triaxx]

Yeah, I'm thinking of the early game where it's a nuisance to get to the point where water and earth let you roll over everything.

[Grif]

Gonna nominate Seven Kingdoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Kingdoms_(video_game)) for this.

It's a perfectly underrated RTS that has some nifty loyalty and espionage mechanics, one I never seen replicated in other games yet.

[Cespenar]

The Longest Journey, and its sequel, Dreamfall, since they are even less known than Psychonauts, but not less great.

If we go into earlier, obscure (for a given value), but still good games, though:

Sanitarium
Claw
Get Medieval
Gruntz
Sanity: Aiken's Artifact
Gorky 17
NetStorm
Lords of the Realm II
Warlords III (not Battlecry)
Crusader: No Regret
Myth II
Silver
The Incredible Machine (1 and 2)
Oddworld: Abe's Odyssey

And probably more that I can't remember right now.

[factotum]

I think the one that immediately springs to mind is Freespace 2, simply because that game sold so poorly that the projected third game in the series never got made--which is a crying shame, considering it's one of the best space combat sims ever made.

"Dive! Dive! Dive! Hit your burners, pilot!"--anyone who's played it will know exactly what moment I'm talking about when I say that. :smallsmile:

[NeoVid]

The only two RTSes I've ever really liked:

Brutal Legend

Guilty Gear 2: Overture

Both of them were sunk by the fact that none of the ads, previews or reviews revealed that they were multiplayer RTSes with a single-player mode of minor importance. Though BL's campaign was funny as hell.

[huttj509]

Anyway, if we're naming games we always name, I think I'll join in and plug Elite Beat Agents. The graphics are starting to really show their age, but it's seriously one of the best rhythm games I've ever played. Scratch that, it IS the best rhythm game I've ever played. It may not be as big and fancy as Guitar Hero or Rock Band, but it's got that quirky charm that keeps me up at night wishing there were a sequel (excepting Osu! and Ouendan! 2).

E. B. A. E. B. A. E. B. A. E. B. A.

Man, even on norm difficulty that last level gave me horrible twisted claw syndrome (it was before I got a couple of large styluses), but it hit the right balance of hard and doable, and it was a great song.

Man, I have trouble thinking of games for threads like this, because either what I thought was little known turns out everyone knows it, or it feels niche enough I don't really want to recommend it to strangers (loving 999 currently, but the virtual novel type of game is not everyone's cup of tea).

[soir8]

For those of you who enjoyed Suikoden 2, I suggest you try Exit Fate. (http://site.scfworks.com/?page_id=10) It has a very similar feel to Suikoden 2, but it is in an original world, and its magic system is kinda reminiscent of Chrono Cross.

Speaking of the Chrono series, I have to ask, why in the world do you think Chrono Trigger fits in this thread?

For some strange reason, nobody I've ever spoken to has heard of it, let alone played it. It seems to be well known among, for lack of a better term, hardcore gamers, but everyone else has only played FF7.

Edit: ok, for a game that's definitely underappreciated, Gitaroo Man. Crazy japanese rythm action that blows Parappa the Rapper out of the water, gets insanely hard, and is the main reason I never really like Guitar Hero.

[huttj509]

For some strange reason, nobody I've ever spoken to has heard of it, let alone played it. It seems to be well known among, for lack of a better term, hardcore gamers, but everyone else has only played FF7.

Edit: ok, for a game that's definitely underappreciated, Gitaroo Man. Crazy japanese rythm action that blows Parappa the Rapper out of the water, gets insanely hard, and is the main reason I never really like Guitar Hero.

Might be age based. I'm 30 and I think everyone I know who's remotely into video games knows of Chrono Trigger, even if they haven't played it.

It came out 17 years ago though, so that's a large range of gamers where it literally came out before they were born. Aside from which the DS release didn't get much press, the playstation version had issues (major plus: cutscenes. Major minus: loadtimes).

Hmmm, FF7 came out 2 years after Chrono Trigger, as well as being a major release for the playstation, while CT was better known for the Super NES (the PS disc was in the anthologies stuff). Wonder if that affects things. (Personally I think FF7 is oversold, but if people are having fun with it, more power to them. I just wish Dancing Mad didn't get eclipsed in FF music popularity by One Winged angel so often.)

[Avilan the Grey]

Might be age based. I'm 30 and I think everyone I know who's remotely into video games knows of Chrono Trigger, even if they haven't played it.

I don't know anything about it except the name.

You are definitely right about the age thing, btw. I have now played computer games since I got my C64 a looong time ago, and even though I pride myself on a very weak Nostalgia Filter there are games that younger generations will never have played, or even heard of, that I love.

[DigoDragon]

A great SNES title that I've only ever known myself to own was Super Bomberman. Came with a mutlitap accessory that allowed you to plug in more controllers so you can play 4-player deathmatch. Because blowing up your friends is fun.

[huttj509]

I don't know anything about it except the name.

You are definitely right about the age thing, btw. I have now played computer games since I got my C64 a looong time ago, and even though I pride myself on a very weak Nostalgia Filter there are games that younger generations will never have played, or even heard of, that I love.

Fond memories of playing Wing commander 2 with my brother on 1 keyboard, I'd steer he'd shoot.

...then we got a computer upgrade...this was back when games ran off the speed of the processor. Rendered things like Wing commander literally unplayable unless you found a way to slow things down (and this was before internet was widespread).

[mistformsquirrl]

Oh, another one: Note - This one is going to be very "YMMV" for a lot of people, and that's fine; but for me...

Tabula Rasa.

The gameplay was fun - one of the first 'actiony-shootery' style MMOs out there, the lore was actually interesting imo (not perfect, but still, it had a strong start I felt); the classes were interesting; and I felt being part of an elite subunit of the military made a lot of sense to give us story direction without making everyone into The Chosen One.

Not saying it was perfect or anything - and sadly the game is long buried - but I had a lot of fun with it, and if it still existed I'd probably play again.

[The Succubus]

<3

I miss Tabula Rasa. I loved the idea behind the Logos.

[t209]

I like Minecraft and Sims 3, but I quit Sims 3 since i can't catch up with the expansions and will play it if it releases in Bundle.

[Avilan the Grey]

I like Minecraft and Sims 3, but I quit Sims 3 since i can't catch up with the expansions and will play it if it releases in Bundle.

I have finally tired of Sims 3, which usually happens about a year before the next release. I am thoroughly looking forward to Sims 4, which should be out within 24 months.


Fond memories of playing Wing commander 2 with my brother on 1 keyboard, I'd steer he'd shoot.

...then we got a computer upgrade...this was back when games ran off the speed of the processor. Rendered things like Wing commander literally unplayable unless you found a way to slow things down (and this was before internet was widespread).

Yes, I remember playing 3D Tetris on my friends 8086. Then he upgraded to a 286... It was definitely not possible to play it anymore.

[factotum]

I like Minecraft and Sims 3

How are either of those games which "not enough people have played"? There must be about ten million Minecraft players, and that's just the ones who post videos on Youtube! :smallsmile:

[DaedalusMkV]

How are either of those games which "not enough people have played"? There must be about ten million Minecraft players, and that's just the ones who post videos on Youtube! :smallsmile:

And the Sims 3 is in the top 10 highest-selling PC games of all time. Hell, the Sims 2 is something like the fifth highest-selling video game of all time if you discount games bundled with consoles. If you account for expansion pack sales, both games catapult to almost the very top of the entire video games industry (The Sims 2 sold more Expansion copies than Diablo 3 sold at all). The Sims is a ludicrous cash-cow franchise that has made EA Games all of the moneys.

Also, the official figure is 8.8 million Minecraft copies sold, which puts it at the ninth most purchased PC game of all time (from games where figures can be ascertained reliably, which has kept quite a few games off the list).

My sumbission for the thread? Sword of the Stars. The first game, with all of the expansions, not the sequel. Very good hybrid RTS/4X space game. Shame that the sequel is, so far, resoundingly inferior to its predecessor.

[mistformsquirrl]

Sword of the Stars is indeed faboo - got that one a long time back, still fire it up occasionally. The only thing I dislike about it is that I constantly need to update my ships - I mean it's fun for awhile, but eventually it's like 'Yes yes, Battleship Model 95Z with upgraded lasers is now ready for production. I still have Battleship Model 1A in service."

Still, utterly fantastic game in spite of that micromanagement headache.

[boj0]

Illusion of Gaia, or Legend of, depending on region. People pass it over as a LoZ clone, but it was so much more; having a darker story, better fleshed out characters, and a similar quality of puzzles and action.

[huttj509]

Illusion of Gaia, or Legend of, depending on region. People pass it over as a LoZ clone, but it was so much more; having a darker story, better fleshed out characters, and a similar quality of puzzles and action.

YES, how did I forget that one? Dang it's been a while.

Freaking vampire boss...

[A Rainy Knight]

I'll second Radiant Historia; I've kind of let my file stagnate for a while now without having gotten terribly far, but its time-travel story elements are really cool and the turn-order/grid combat mechanics add a nice splash of creativity to the battles. The music's great, too.

The best example I've come across lately is probably Atelier Meruru, though that might just be less of an under-appreciated gem and more of a really niche game where I fall squarely into the niche. At any rate, I had never heard of it before when I saw it in the store and it got pretty mixed reviews, but I gave it a try anyway and fell in love with it. Maybe it's nothing too special gameplay-wise, but its mix of gorgeous music, bright and colorful graphics, lovable characters, extensive voice acting, and cheerful slice-of-life storytelling style leave me feeling incredibly happy whenever I spend time with it.

[Zevox]

The best example I've come across lately is probably Atelier Meruru, though that might just be less of an under-appreciated gem and more of a really niche game where I fall squarely into the niche. At any rate, I had never heard of it before when I saw it in the store and it got pretty mixed reviews, but I gave it a try anyway and fell in love with it. Maybe it's nothing too special gameplay-wise, but its mix of gorgeous music, bright and colorful graphics, lovable characters, extensive voice acting, and cheerful slice-of-life storytelling style leave me feeling incredibly happy whenever I spend time with it.
I've heard of that one. Haven't tried it, but that's mostly because it's PS3-exclusive, and I've had a PS3 for less than a month. Definitely on my to-try list though.

Too bad PS3 exclusive games seem to very often not bother making demos available. :smallfrown:

[Kid Jake]

I'd say my all time favorite game Giants: Citizen Kabuto fits the bill. Humorous story, nice variety of gameplay and the ability to play a 40ft rock monster that poops dinosaurs. I can only guess that Planet Moon's under some sort of gypsy curse or else they should be on their twelth sequel by now.

[Forbiddenwar]

definitely going to show my age here.

I'd like to say Alpha Centari, but since that got released on GoG (with the expansion thrown in for free I might add) then clearly everyone with a working computer and $3 to spare has played it. (OT: Is there another newer great Sid Meier Civilization in Space game? Let me know)

No, my submission for this thread is Sid Meier's take on Magic the Gathering. Micropose: Magic the Gathering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_(MicroProse))
What happens when you get Civilization and MtG smashed together? Where you have to conquer the land before you can tap it, and defend it from other wizards.

Sadly, it had a poor release due to no multiplayer (remember, this was 1997) although an expansion added multiplayer later. And it won't even install on any operating system newer than windows 95, due to a bug in the installer.
Every so often I check GoG for this title.

IMHO, it stands as the best MtG game of all time. It may even be the best Sid Meier's game of all time. And yet, practically no one has played it.

[Avilan the Grey]

Speaking of the Sims games though... I DO wish they were more accepted among "gamers". Of course "l33t hardcore" gamers don't accept many games as "real" games, but even among others there is a huge bias against these particular games.

[Cespenar]

No, my submission for this thread is Sid Meier's take on Magic the Gathering. Micropose: Magic the Gathering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_(MicroProse))

Heh. I remember playing that for I don't know how long. Great game.

[Triaxx]

The trouble with the Sims is that there aren't really any win conditions that I see. I mean, they seem to be games about living life. Great, I'm playing games to escape life and you're trying to have me play a game about living life? Umm... Fundamental flaw in the thinking there.

Second, I don't see a clear lose condition. Dwarf Fortress can't be 'won' but there are a million ways to lose. I don't see that in Sims, so I have no interest in starting a game I'm never going to finish one way or another. Just one I'm going have to play until I get bored with it. And that's not that entertaining to me.

[Avilan the Grey]

The trouble with the Sims is that there aren't really any win conditions that I see. I mean, they seem to be games about living life. Great, I'm playing games to escape life and you're trying to have me play a game about living life? Umm... Fundamental flaw in the thinking there.

Second, I don't see a clear lose condition. Dwarf Fortress can't be 'won' but there are a million ways to lose. I don't see that in Sims, so I have no interest in starting a game I'm never going to finish one way or another. Just one I'm going have to play until I get bored with it. And that's not that entertaining to me.

The lose condition is if you have no surviving members of your household.
As for playing "real life"... not really. You are (most often) playing a soap-opera simulator... :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

The trouble with the Sims is that there aren't really any win conditions that I see.

The same thing applies to Sim City, though, which doesn't have the same casual gamer stigma.

[Wamyen]

Aidyn Chronicles The First Mage. One of only two RPG's for the old N64. Awful graphics, but a good storyline (for the time), interesting characters, unique monsters and it got me into RPG's. So I may be a little biased on the subject. :smallwink:

[DigoDragon]

I remember a version of Lemmings for SNES that none of my friends remember, but I thought it was interesting because it was the only Lemmings game I know that had a multiplayer mode: Two players, split screen on one map.

You both had your own lemmings and the object was to save more then your opponent. And you can sabotage your opponent's efforts. I don't know if any of the modern Lemmings games do that.

[Makensha]

One of only two RPG's for the old N64.

Are you forgetting Paper Mario? What about Hybrid Heaven, and to a lesser extent, Ogre Battle 64 and Shadowgate 64?

[LansXero]

I humbly nominate Skullmonkeys. It was fresh, innovative, fun, and entirely unnoticed and unremembered :(

[Somewhere]

Gunstar Heroes is an all-time great game, but I'd partially explain its non-popularity as due to age. Also, if you're in America, add another handicap for being on the Genesis/Mega Drive. And I assume remove the handicap if you're in Europe and... Brazil, I think?

Guardian Heroes is also another all-time great (Treasure is REALLY REALLY GOOD at game making), but it gets a huge handicap in America for being on the Saturn. The Saturn has its share of incredible games, but, well, it's the Saturn, not a lot of English speakers will know them. Alas poor Radiant Silvergun, Dragon Force, and Shining Force III.... and as a friend would add, Panzer Dragoon Saga.

So many excellent games with their present day popularity being handicapped by combination of age, poor system popularity in the region, being part of a niche genre at the time, few copies produced (see: Ogre Battle for a 16-bit era example, Radiant Historia for a present day example), rediculously high MSRP (see: Phantasy Star 4 having MSRP of.... 100 USD, IIRC), etc.

Now, as for my contribution to the thread:
Castle of Shikigami II

A vertical shoot-em-up which got a port to the PS2 (gasp, a system actually popular in the west, and it's within the past decade!) and actually made it to America, at least. It's a very solid shoot-em-up, but what makes it stand out is the hilariously, nonsensical script.

But shoot-me-up is a pretty niche genre nowadays, and it seems like most people who know about the genre nowadays really only just know about Touhou :smallmad:
(nothing personal against Touhou; it's more of a 'yaknow, this genre does have lot more tradition beyond a doujin series that started off as a Arkanoid clone on a Japan-only computer system that most of you aren't even aware of')

There is a Castle of Shikigami III, which saw release for the Wii, and it did get to America as well. The script is still humorous, but unfortunately, it's actually sane. Yes, the script being sane actually kills a lot of the charm. It's still pretty solid, though.

[Zevox]

The trouble with the Sims is that there aren't really any win conditions that I see. I mean, they seem to be games about living life. Great, I'm playing games to escape life and you're trying to have me play a game about living life? Umm... Fundamental flaw in the thinking there.

Second, I don't see a clear lose condition. Dwarf Fortress can't be 'won' but there are a million ways to lose. I don't see that in Sims, so I have no interest in starting a game I'm never going to finish one way or another. Just one I'm going have to play until I get bored with it. And that's not that entertaining to me.
Yeah, I'd say similar things. I remember trying a Sims game once, and becoming very bored very fast. I literally could not figure out what about it was supposed to be fun. It's a lot like games such as Harvest Moon or Animal Crossing to me - there's no conflict to overcome, goals to strive for, or interesting things to do, so I gave up on it quite fast.


One of only two RPG's for the old N64.
I count at least four - Aidyn Chronicles, Ogre Battle 64, Quest 64, and Paper Mario. And Makensha named a couple I've never heard of above.

[DaedalusMkV]

Panzer Dragoon Saga.

Alas, poor Panzer Dragoon. I miss you, and wish you would come back. So many hours at the house of That Friend Who Actually Owned a Sega Saturn, taking turns playing the heck out of you. Oh, if only you existed on any other platform, how glorious it would be. I would play you once more and the nostalgia would flow!

Sadly, recommending Saturn games is a hiltless sword. Getting a hold of a Saturn is horribly difficult, much less the few good games on the console, and pretty much none of them have ever been ported. Which means that even for people who would like to play the game in question probably won't ever get a chance to.

[Gnoman]

Getting a hold of a Saturn is horribly difficult

The local used shops around here have stacks of them, and won't buy any more due to non-existent demand. Getting copies of most games is nigh-impossible, though.

[Terraoblivion]

But shoot-me-up is a pretty niche genre nowadays, and it seems like most people who know about the genre nowadays really only just know about Touhou :smallmad:
(nothing personal against Touhou; it's more of a 'yaknow, this genre does have lot more tradition beyond a doujin series that started off as a Arkanoid clone on a Japan-only computer system that most of you aren't even aware of')

Oh, there's a living breathing shmup fandom which looks down on Touhou for not being hard enough. Similarly, most of the Touhou fandom cares more about the remixes, manga, doujinshi, games both official and unofficial in other genres and shipping than they do about the actual shmup games. It's part of what makes Touhou fascinating, it is about the most successful example of a shared setting and fan creativity running wild out there. After all, it can and has been used for anything from telling autobiographical anecdotes to spoofing 300 and it's treated with the same legitimacy as being real Touhou as people simply expanding on the background of the characters.

[T.G. Oskar]

Suikoden II.... a very rare treasure that very very few in my circle have heard of and never played. It is 100 times better than any final fantasy game and allows for a much larger degree of party custimization. Also they have a truly evil villain to deal with... 'DIE PIGS!" I also just love the game series in general since you get to see the entire world evolve and learn more about each nations histroy while learning about the True Runes and their origin.

It's a shame I never had the chance to rent the game when Blockbuster still existed. I rented the first one and loved it, and I was really disappointed that, when I finally had a save with all 108 Stars available, the game was nearly impossible to find.

Agree 100% with Luca Blight. I measure how good a villain is by means of how much it makes me abandon the notion of mercy, and he's one of the few people who, in a heartbeat, I'd drop off a cliff and give it a Rasputinian death even if he dies from the first one, and that's just by what I've seen and heard of him. Must be a cathartic experience when he finally dies...


Guardian Heroes is also another all-time great (Treasure is REALLY REALLY GOOD at game making), but it gets a huge handicap in America for being on the Saturn. The Saturn has its share of incredible games, but, well, it's the Saturn, not a lot of English speakers will know them. Alas poor Radiant Silvergun, Dragon Force, and Shining Force III.... and as a friend would add, Panzer Dragoon Saga.

Of those you mention, I really lament that XBLA or PSN (and specifically, Sega) hasn't released Dragon Force or Shining Force III in their arcade version. I distinctly recall XBLA has a HD version of Guardian Heroes, which I'd love to play but have no money to buy (unless someone's willing to share their MS Points with me so I can have it, since the demo is pretty awesome). Much like Ikaruga, which is an awesome, beautiful expression of bullet hell.

Yes, Treasure has a golden touch.

What piques my curiosity is how people just LOVE Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI (and I do so, as well; CT is a masterpiece and FFVI holds a very special place in my heart), but many people forget about Romancing SaGa 3. Having a HD re-release of the game, or better, a fully updated edition, would be marvelous. Definitely way ahead of its era, and right around the golden era of SNES RPGs: I think it's the primary reason why I enjoy Dragon Age: Origins so much. It lacks the witty commentary and rich characters, but it precedes the idea of a single story seen through the lens of multiple characters by a lot, barring dungeon crawlers. I would mention it as the holy trilogy of SNES RPGs, but that'd be a horrible, horrible insult to Lufia II and Breath of Fire II.

Also: Tecmo-Koei...you constantly churn Dynasty Warriors and Samurai Warriors and lots of musou games. Good. Where's my Gemfire/(Super) Royal Blood musou!?!?!?

Gemfire (Royal Blood) was an awesome game, even with the little tolerance I have for Rot3K-style games. It had a simple interface, the battles were entertaining, and watching the royal wizards and recruited 5th members destroying the opposition was awesome. Furthermore, it's Koei's only approach (as far as I know) to western fantasy, so it's bizarre that they've forgotten about it.


I just wish Dancing Mad didn't get eclipsed in FF music popularity by One Winged angel so often.)

I agree with you on that, good sir. Always going to video game concerts, and I have to withstand (well, not really: I tend to get my cellphone and play another kind of music absolutely loud) hearing One-Winged Angel, while everybody goes ecstatic. And yet, nobody has ever even suggested playing Dancing Mad on those concerts, I believe not even once. It's a terrible shame, considering the complexity, the richness, the Beethoven reference, how it uses leitmotifs and arrangements of various of the game's tunes all at once.

But, since One-Winged Angel has Latin chorus, people like it. Bah. I take any Banpresto song any time.

[Mikeavelli]

I'd say my all time favorite game Giants: Citizen Kabuto fits the bill. Humorous story, nice variety of gameplay and the ability to play a 40ft rock monster that poops dinosaurs. I can only guess that Planet Moon's under some sort of gypsy curse or else they should be on their twelth sequel by now.

Much love for Citizen Kabuto.

My only criticism is that it's clear how rushed they got towards the end. The single-player campaign starts out amazing, but they seem to run out of steam about halfway through the Reaper campaign. When you finally got to control Kabuto (which you would expect being the best part of the game!) - it was so dull I cheated past about half the levels.

[Avilan the Grey]

Much love for Citizen Kabuto.

My only criticism is that it's clear how rushed they got towards the end. The single-player campaign starts out amazing, but they seem to run out of steam about halfway through the Reaper campaign. When you finally got to control Kabuto (which you would expect being the best part of the game!) - it was so dull I cheated past about half the levels.

I never played it, but I found it interesting. Also, the fact that in certain countries the water elementals (or sylphs or whatever they were) were covered up was LOLworthy.

[Scowling Dragon]

The same thing applies to Sim City, though, which doesn't have the same casual gamer stigma.

Actually it CAN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NTJQTc-TqpU#!) be won.

A horrifying, terrifying victory.

[Surrealistik]

Actually it CAN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NTJQTc-TqpU#!) be won.

A horrifying, terrifying victory.

Beyond creepy.

[Brother Oni]

Alas poor Radiant Silvergun, Dragon Force, and Shining Force III.... and as a friend would add, Panzer Dragoon Saga.


I'd add Burning Rangers to that list.


Other great class games - there's the Tecmo's Deception series which is a cross between a tower defence and an exercise in sadism combined with combo chaining. The second game, Kagero, was noted for its generally depressing tone and multiple endings with an implied incestuous relationship being of better ones.

Almost any Vanillaware games. I've seen my brother play Odinsphere and Grim Grimoire, but the only one I've actually played is Muramasa: The Demon Blade.
The first two are strategy games, the last is a platformer, but that's not what marks them out - what marks them out is that they're so damn pretty!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0d/Momohime_VS_Orge.jpg
Those are in game graphics, with an animated background, along with some foreground sakura petals drifting in the night air.

In Muramasa especially, every time I walk by an eatery, I have to have something because it looks so good (not to mention it makes me have a craving for tempura ramen...).

[mistformsquirrl]

Actually it CAN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NTJQTc-TqpU#!) be won.

A horrifying, terrifying victory.

I don't even know what to say to that video except Ia Ia Cthulu Ftaghn! Because... yeah <@.@>

[huttj509]

I agree with you on that, good sir. Always going to video game concerts, and I have to withstand (well, not really: I tend to get my cellphone and play another kind of music absolutely loud) hearing One-Winged Angel, while everybody goes ecstatic. And yet, nobody has ever even suggested playing Dancing Mad on those concerts, I believe not even once. It's a terrible shame, considering the complexity, the richness, the Beethoven reference, how it uses leitmotifs and arrangements of various of the game's tunes all at once.

But, since One-Winged Angel has Latin chorus, people like it. Bah. I take any Banpresto song any time.


I was at a video games live concert (2 years ago, GenCon). And the MC was saying "our next song (pause) is from Final Fantasy (pause)..." and the audience was shouting back and forth "6...7...6...7...6...7"

It was OWA, of course, but I found the audience participation amusing.

I think some things against Dancing Mad in general popularity are:

Length: The initial version is about 18 minutes long. Most versions shorten it to 10-12 minutes. Still pretty dang long for a piece of video game music.

Structural complexity: It has, what, four distinct movements? In comparison, OWA has a straightforward ABA structure, making it easier for many people to keep track of and remember.

Rhythm: I love dancing Mad's off kilter rhythm for a couple of the movements. I personally love competing, irregular, syncopated rhythms, and DM definitely has some of the irregular going on. However, I know a lot of people for whom when the rhythm kinda falls over its own feet are pulled out of the music, and for whom it's a turn off. In comparison, I I think the most complex OWA gets on the main lines is some fast triplets.

[DemonicAngel]

Metal Fatigue.
neat storyline, nice stratigical gameplay, and they let you build your own mechs using various parts which you can salvage and/or steal from your enemies
. also fighting in the air, on the ground and underground made for some really neat tactical decisions.

[Aotrs Commander]

Hector: Badge of Carnage. (http://www.youtube.com/thehectorfiles)

(Just to be safe, language warning (and only written, and in the background, as one of the jokes).)

It is a foul, crude, lewd and dirty little game so far into gutter even the cockroaches are looking down at it.

And it is also one of the most hilarious adventure games I have ever played.

It knows exactly what it is, and it plays it to the hilt. (It is also a very British game, which helps...) Even the hint system is delighfully nasty, haranging and patronising you for actually needing to use it.

I really want them to make a sequel, I really do!

[Archonic Energy]

I think the one that immediately springs to mind is Freespace 2, simply because that game sold so poorly that the projected third game in the series never got made--which is a crying shame, considering it's one of the best space combat sims ever made.

"Dive! Dive! Dive! Hit your burners, pilot!"--anyone who's played it will know exactly what moment I'm talking about when I say that. :smallsmile:

isn't that the one that got it's posters censored?

tachyon: the fringe
the X series
the space sim genre in general deserves more love.

dark reign was a pretty good RTS for it's age, shame it was over shadowed by TA

[Wookieetank]

Maybe I'm just the odd one out with the people I know, but it seems that Devil Survivor 1 & 2 along with Strange Journey are three less known, but quite awesome games. The Devil survivors are Shin Megaten meets visual novel meets hybrid tactical/turn based RPG. Strange Journey is Shin Megaten meets Etrian Odyssey type exploration and dungeon crawling. If you have a DS you should go get all three (maybe not at the same time, they can eat a lot of your time individually).

[Eldan]

I don't even know what to say to that video except Ia Ia Cthulu Ftaghn! Because... yeah <@.@>

I'm sure that guy could get a career in mathematical modelling or something.

[The Succubus]

A free and utterly wonderful Rogue-like PC game called Spelunky. Dying in horrible, horrible ways has never been so fun! ^_^

[Somewhere]

Romancing SaGa 3 was something I tried shortly after its fan translation was released, but I never really got into it. I'm a powergaming type, so I'm not a fan of how max HP determines difficulty and what parts of the game are available to you. But that aside, the system does look to be pretty interesting.

Speaking of Koei's past non-Musou stuff, I wouldn't mind another Aerobiz for that matter.


Strange Journey is Shin Megaten meets Etrian Odyssey type exploration and dungeon crawling.

In other words, Strange Journey plays like a mainline SMT game. There is good reason that for a while, fans speculated that Strange Journey was SMT 4.

----

Here's another entry:

Shock Troopers

Originally a Neo Geo game from the late 90's, it is an overhead run and gun game, like Commando, Mercs, Ikari Warriors, KiKi KaiKai/Pocky & Rocky, etc. It has seen console release by being part of the SNK Arcade Classics Vol 1, which was released for PS2, Wii, and PSP (all available in NA as well, I believe). Europe got the PS2 and PSP release, according to wikipedia. It is also apparently now available on the Wii's Virtual Console service.

It's a pretty solid run and gun. There are 8 characters to choose from, with the primary difference being their 'bomb' attacks. There may be other differences, but I don't remember right away. The two game modes are picking one character for the life, and picking a 3 character team. You get regular fire, 'bomb', evasive roll, and the ability to change members if in the 3 team member mode for your buttons.
There are 3 routes through the game, and halfway through you can choose to change routes if you'd so like.

There is also a sequel, Shock Troopers: 2nd Squad. Personally, I like 2nd Squad more; the graphics are less generic feeling and the characters definitely have more noticable differences between them beyond their bomb attacks that I can remember. But character count is reduced to 4. I remember it being more bullet hell-like than the first game.
People seem to prefer the first game, so there might be a difference in polish...
2nd Squad has not seen a physical copy release outside of the Neo Geo, though. Although it seems that it was recently released for the NA side of the Wii Virtual Console service, actually; December 27, 2012.

---

Since I mentioned SNK Arcade Classics Vol 1, another honourable mention is...

Top Hunter: Roddy & Cathy

Sidescrolling platformer/action game for the Neo Geo. It utilizes two horizontal planes for movement, like the original Fatal Fury, or similar to how Guardian Heroes uses three planes. So the three buttons used are for attacking, regular jumping, and jumping back and forth between the two planes.
Its main gimmick is that if you press down on attack instead of tapping, your character stretches his/her fist forward to attempt to grab. The vast majority of non-spike covered objects can be grabbed. And then you can toss them afterwards.
There are also fighting game-style commands you can enter for special moves. Most if not all should be based from fighters.... There's definitely Kohoken, Ko Hoh, Power Wave, and Burn Knuckle in there, at least. The game's responsiveness to such commands is... inconsistent. It's kind of frustrating to me, honestly. Or maybe I just never really nailed down when the game starts recognizing command input after performing a move.
All and all, still a solid platformer that stands out enough to be worth checking out. It's probably my 2nd or 3rd favourite game that is included on SNK Arcade Classics Vol 1. It should also be available on the Wii Virtual Console service.

[Zevox]

tachyon: the fringe
Ah, I remember that. Best not-TIE-Fighter space fighter game I ever played. Then again, it's also the only one of those I've played besides TIE-Fighter and X-Wing vs TIE-Fighter, but still, quite good.

[The_Jackal]

I'd like to say Alpha Centari, but since that got released on GoG (with the expansion thrown in for free I might add) then clearly everyone with a working computer and $3 to spare has played it. (OT: Is there another newer great Sid Meier Civilization in Space game? Let me know)

YESSSS!!! Alpha Centauri remains, to this day, my favourite Civ-type game. To my knowledge there's never been a sequel, which is a crying shame. This game would profit remarkably from a graphics upgrade and some AI tuning.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Maybe I'm just the odd one out with the people I know, but it seems that Devil Survivor 1 & 2 along with Strange Journey are three less known, but quite awesome games. The Devil survivors are Shin Megaten meets visual novel meets hybrid tactical/turn based RPG. Strange Journey is Shin Megaten meets Etrian Odyssey type exploration and dungeon crawling. If you have a DS you should go get all three (maybe not at the same time, they can eat a lot of your time individually).

If you think that Devil Survivor and Strange Journey eat up time, you haven't played Persona 4 (and also, I assume 3 and the two 2's take similar time). It took me nearly 60 hours to play through once, and I don't think four playthroughs of Devil Survivor took that long.

That said, every game mentioned in our posts combined are fairly good, for those who enjoy those types of games.

[Zevox]

If you think that Devil Survivor and Strange Journey eat up time, you haven't played Persona 4 (and also, I assume 3 and the two 2's take similar time). It took me nearly 60 hours to play through once, and I don't think four playthroughs of Devil Survivor took that long.
I'm surprised you finished P4 in that little time. None of my play throughs took less than 100 hours.

[Eldan]

YESSSS!!! Alpha Centauri remains, to this day, my favourite Civ-type game. To my knowledge there's never been a sequel, which is a crying shame. This game would profit remarkably from a graphics upgrade and some AI tuning.

There's a pretty big mod for Civ IV called Planetfall, which tries to bring the AC fluff to Civ IV. It's pretty nice, but fails in a few regards: they havne't managed to implement large scale terraforming yet, last I checked.

[MLai]

Have ppl here played Valkyria Chronicles? It's recent, and it's on the PS3.

Wiki says this about its reception:
Despite having garnered positive press, sales of the game have been mixed. While it sold 77,000 copies in its first week of release in Japan, it only sold 33,000 copies in the United States during November 2008.... Despite weak initial North American sales, Valkyria Chronicles recovered somewhat with sales sharply increasing in April 2009 following a price cut and the simultaneous release of an anime based on the game.

The problem comes probably from the fact that it's both a:

(1) Turn based tactics game ala Jagged Alliance (but with a more involved combat system), which means it's a niche genre in the USA, and...
(2) Japanese in graphics (anime-like) and story (anime-like), which means TBT grognards would look down on it.

That's my guess.

[factotum]

Ah, I remember that. Best not-TIE-Fighter space fighter game I ever played.

Get thee hence to GoG and buy Freespace 2...it might change your mind on that. :smallwink:

[Zevox]

Have ppl here played Valkyria Chronicles? It's recent, and it's on the PS3.

Wiki says this about its reception:
Despite having garnered positive press, sales of the game have been mixed. While it sold 77,000 copies in its first week of release in Japan, it only sold 33,000 copies in the United States during November 2008.... Despite weak initial North American sales, Valkyria Chronicles recovered somewhat with sales sharply increasing in April 2009 following a price cut and the simultaneous release of an anime based on the game.

The problem comes probably from the fact that it's both a:

(1) Turn based tactics game ala Jagged Alliance (but with a more involved combat system), which means it's a niche genre in the USA, and...
(2) Japanese in graphics (anime-like) and story (anime-like), which means TBT grognards would look down on it.

That's my guess.
I'm playing it right now, actually. It was one of the games I got for Christmas this year along with my PS3.

I don't know that I want to say much on it just now, since I've been figuring I'd post my impressions in the Gaming General thread once I finished it, but I will say I'm definitely enjoying it.

I don't think the graphics are all that anime-esque though, personally. The storybook aesthetic of it alters the look so that it just seems like a cartoon in general, rather than anime in particular. And the story doesn't really go anime on you until you run into a particular character about a third of the way through - up until then it's more or less a fictionalized World War 2. And, really, it proceeds as such after that encounter for at least the next third, which is about where I'm up to now, with that character having only just reappeared.

[Brother Oni]

The problem comes probably from the fact that it's both a:

(1) Turn based tactics game ala Jagged Alliance (but with a more involved combat system), which means it's a niche genre in the USA, and...
(2) Japanese in graphics (anime-like) and story (anime-like), which means TBT grognards would look down on it.


I'd add '(3) PS3 Exclusive' to that list as well. While I'd very much like to play it, I can't justify getting another console for it.

[A Rainy Knight]

I pretty much agree with all those points about Valkyria Chronicles (a game I'm really fond of). I'd be curious to hear how it compares with the Fire Emblem series in terms of sales, though, since they remind me of each other on a few of those points: turn-based strategy, sort of Japanese feeling, et cetera. If the numbers are different, is it a matter of the consoles they're available on, or are they just not as similar as I'm making them out to be?

[Spiryt]

Severance : Blade of Darkness?

Pretty bad case of not really finished game, even for early 2000's standards, but really great atmosphere, graphics, and most importantly some of the, if not the best sword fights in video games history.

[Edenbeast]

Severance : Blade of Darkness?

Pretty bad case of not really finished game, even for early 2000's standards, but really great atmosphere, graphics, and most importantly some of the, if not the best sword fights in video games history.

I second Severance :) Got the game when it first came out and played through the game with all four characters. Great atmosphere and combos. I'm still secretly waiting for a sequel.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm going to go with Shining Force 3 part 1 (only 1st part ws translated from Japanese).

[Somewhere]

I pretty much agree with all those points about Valkyria Chronicles (a game I'm really fond of). I'd be curious to hear how it compares with the Fire Emblem series in terms of sales, though, since they remind me of each other on a few of those points: turn-based strategy, sort of Japanese feeling, et cetera. If the numbers are different, is it a matter of the consoles they're available on, or are they just not as similar as I'm making them out to be?

According to VGChartz...

Senjou no Valkyrie sold 0.63 mil in NA, 0.12 mil in EU, 0.24 mil in JP, 0.1 mil in the rest of the world for a global total 1.08 million.

Not a single Fire Emblem has broken 1 million global, with the closest being Rekka no Ken (FE7) at 0.97 million (0.49 NA, 0.18 EU, 0.29 JP, 0.01 other). That's the best any FE has done in NA and EU, although 6th best in JP.

After glancing at some numbers (Disgaea 3 & 4, FFTA2), my guess is that strat/rpgs perform better in NA if they're on PS3, while they're better in JP if on DS/3DS.

BTW, among the small sample size of Disgaea 3/4, FFTA2, Devil Survivor 1 & 2, Fire Emblem, and Senjou no Valkyrie for recent strat/rpgs off the top of my head, Senjou no Valkyrie wins in global sales, thanks to that gaudy 0.63 mil in NA.

[Eldan]

Since today, I can say Miasmata.

Got it on steam this christmas sale, didn't have time to play it before now. It's fantastic.

It's an adventure game, sort of. You are stranded on an island. You have only your journal, an empty map you have to draw yourself, a watch and a compass.

You have a deadly disease and will soon die.

Somewhere on this island is an abandonded medical research station.

Something out there is hunting you.

Better learn how to survive.


Of course, I spent the first hour running too fast, slipping on wet ground and falling down hills, breaking my bones. Or getting totally lost since I suck navigation. Or trying to swim, nearly drowning and getting a fever.

[oblivion6]

Suikoden II.... a very rare treasure that very very few in my circle have heard of and never played. It is 100 times better than any final fantasy game and allows for a much larger degree of party custimization. Also they have a truly evil villain to deal with... 'DIE PIGS!" I also just love the game series in general since you get to see the entire world evolve and learn more about each nations histroy while learning about the True Runes and their origin.

Agreed!!! People need to play the entire series. Hopefully this "Suikoden Revival Movement" thats going around convinces Konami to make more games:smalltongue:

Personally, I can say that it is the greatest series of games out there. Having invested hundreds of hours into each game of the main series. With the exception of IV, but even that has a good 100 hours or so.

[Brother Oni]

Agreed!!! People need to play the entire series.

It would have helped if Suikoden 3 was actually released in Europe... :smallsigh:

[Felyndiira]

My entry:

Yggdra Union: We Will Never Fight Alone

This is a very little-known game for the GBA/PSP, although in my opinion amongst the best TRPGs out there. The game-play, in standard Sting fashion, is completely unique with no analog in any other game, and is quite difficult to boot. The storyline is where the game shines, in my opinion - it begins with a very standard "princess trying to take her kingdom back from the evil invading empire" type of story, but blossoms very quickly into an exploration about gray and gray morality and about what it means to be fighting a war.

(The one other funny thing that's really notable about the game is that every official review site has gotten the story wrong, thus proving that no official game reviewer ever plays through a game before they review it.)

A lot of Sting games, in my opinion, are hidden gems in this regard. Sting is one of those rare teams that really put a lot of effort into innovation, and it really shows when every one of their games (including Riviera and Knights of Nightmare) has an unique system.

[Gnoman]

Metal Fatigue.
neat storyline, nice stratigical gameplay, and they let you build your own mechs using various parts which you can salvage and/or steal from your enemies
. also fighting in the air, on the ground and underground made for some really neat tactical decisions.

An excellent RTS. Unfortunately, it's nigh-impossible to run it on any computer that's not using Windows 9x.

[Wookieetank]

If you think that Devil Survivor and Strange Journey eat up time, you haven't played Persona 4 (and also, I assume 3 and the two 2's take similar time). It took me nearly 60 hours to play through once, and I don't think four playthroughs of Devil Survivor took that long.

That said, every game mentioned in our posts combined are fairly good, for those who enjoy those types of games.

Still need to finish P3, Nocturne, and Digital Devil Saga (1 & 2), and Devil Survivor 2 (2nd to last day and stuck on the boss). Not to mention tracking down a copy of P4 at a price I find reasonable. Strange journey I put in over 70 hours first playthrough, and am well on my way to 130 with my second. :smalleek:

[Surrealistik]

Dear Esther.

[MLai]

Dear Esther.
On the subject of married people... everyone needs to play To The Moon. I will equate it with Pixar's Up.

[Forbiddenwar]

Dear Esther.

Nope. Dear Esther is not a game. It's an experience. It's a movie. It's holding the W button for 2 hours. But is not a game, by many definitions of what constitute a game.

Perhaps not enough people have seen it. I think I can agree with that. It's both heart rendering and beautiful.

[Surrealistik]

Lol, I knew I should have edited in a hedge against pedanticism.

[MLai]

Regarding Dear Esther... I need to replay it one day to make sure, but I think there's a twist in the game in that the game's narrator is actually not the husband, but the person who killed the wife in the motor vehicle accident.

[Tebryn]

Probably not a game a whole lot of people have played but I think The Bouncer, one of the leading titles for the PS2 back in the day. It could do with a remake and a sequel with todays graphics. Way ahead of it's time in a lot of ways that hampered it from being the great game it could easily have been.

[warty goblin]

Everyone should play Spec Ops: The Line. Then they should feel horrible about themselves. It's like the one game that lives up to the sky-high promises people keep making about games being a bold new artform yadda yadda yadda stop pointing out they're crappy retreads of second rate forty year old pulps.

Seriously, Spec Ops does things with player choice, and actually addressing those choices as a narrative, I never thought I'd see done. Of course it didn't sell all that great, so we probably won't see it done again either.

[huttj509]

Everyone should play Spec Ops: The Line. Then they should feel horrible about themselves. It's like the one game that lives up to the sky-high promises people keep making about games being a bold new artform yadda yadda yadda stop pointing out they're crappy retreads of second rate forty year old pulps.

Seriously, Spec Ops does things with player choice, and actually addressing those choices as a narrative, I never thought I'd see done. Of course it didn't sell all that great, so we probably won't see it done again either.

a) I agree with you.

b) I hesitate to 'sell' the game to people, because I found a lot of the effect incredibly subjective. I felt like I got exactly what they were going for, but it'd be easy for others to not have the same reaction. Heck, my twin brother and I had some great discussions about it. I had played it not knowing much about it. He had watched a Let's Play of it (actually was in the process of watching it, while we were discussing), after hearing the hype. It definitely hit me more than it did him, both because of personal interaction with it, and because of expectations going into it.

[Eldan]

That's a thing I've wondered: I have heard good things about The Line, and it looks interesting, except for one thing: I have played only one military shooter in my life (MOdern Warfare 1, I think, I'm not even sure), for maybe half an hour, and it bored me to tears. I was also horribly bad at it. What are the chances I would enjoy The Line despite that?

[Terraoblivion]

I haven't played Spec Ops: The Line and while it sounds like a good game, it doesn't sound like one that has much to offer me. It's criticism of military shooters seems pretty close to the one I've had for years, so I'd just get to play a somewhat clunky game while being told to believe what I already believe.

[Cespenar]

That's a thing I've wondered: I have heard good things about The Line, and it looks interesting, except for one thing: I have played only one military shooter in my life (MOdern Warfare 1, I think, I'm not even sure), for maybe half an hour, and it bored me to tears. I was also horribly bad at it. What are the chances I would enjoy The Line despite that?

You could bring the difficulty down, if that would not hurt your ego or something. After all, as weird as this might sound, The Line is a FPS one would play for its storytelling.

[huttj509]

That's a thing I've wondered: I have heard good things about The Line, and it looks interesting, except for one thing: I have played only one military shooter in my life (MOdern Warfare 1, I think, I'm not even sure), for maybe half an hour, and it bored me to tears. I was also horribly bad at it. What are the chances I would enjoy The Line despite that?

Really hard to tell. It's equivalent to an action movie that deconstructs standard action movies. A lot of the things it does subtly 'work' primarily because a lot of people are used to things being a certain way in various FPS games.

From your description, I suspect it would not hold you long enough to where it starts working with things. Part of its draw is that it starts off feeling like a fairly standard FPS, and then subtly starts making you think about things. And then less subtly makes you start thinking about things. And then beats you over the head with it (in a way that works because it built up slowly).

[Cespenar]

Part of its draw is that it starts off feeling like a fairly standard FPS, and then subtly starts making you think about things. And then less subtly makes you start thinking about things. And then beats you over the head with it (in a way that works because it built up slowly).

That's a pretty accurate description, actually.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that's what I assumed. I don't know shooter tropes, and shooter gameplay probably won't fascinate me long enough to get me to the good parts. A let's play then, maybe.

[huttj509]

Yeah, that's what I assumed. I don't know shooter tropes, and shooter gameplay probably won't fascinate me long enough to get me to the good parts. A let's play then, maybe.

<.< >.> If you're a Goon there's a Let's Play thread for it up on Something Awful. That's what my brother was going through when we were discussing it.

[Xaotiq1]

The best example I've come across lately is probably Atelier Meruru, though that might just be less of an under-appreciated gem and more of a really niche game where I fall squarely into the niche. At any rate, I had never heard of it before when I saw it in the store and it got pretty mixed reviews, but I gave it a try anyway and fell in love with it. Maybe it's nothing too special gameplay-wise, but its mix of gorgeous music, bright and colorful graphics, lovable characters, extensive voice acting, and cheerful slice-of-life storytelling style leave me feeling incredibly happy whenever I spend time with it.

I LOVE the Atelier Games! All I can get my hands on are the Atelier Iris series and Mana Khemia, but I really dig those games.

[warty goblin]

I haven't played Spec Ops: The Line and while it sounds like a good game, it doesn't sound like one that has much to offer me. It's criticism of military shooters seems pretty close to the one I've had for years, so I'd just get to play a somewhat clunky game while being told to believe what I already believe.

While its clearly aimed at military shooters, I honestly found it an effective commentary on gaming's reliance on the heroic use of violence in general. Most of what it's really saying by the end isn't specific to wanting to a hard army man, but the desire to kill things and feel good about it. OK, that one scene is definitely aiming at the Modern Warfare games, but it stands on it's own as well. What the game is fundamentally going after is the idea that we feel good about 'heroically' killing hordes of people for entertainment. I think pretty much everything in the game applies to Commander Shepard* as well as it does your average Modern Warfare protagonist

Speaking of Mass Effect, I'd say the shooting bits certainly aren't worse than those game. Definitely ahead of one, maybe a bit above 2. Probably worth playing on Easy if shooters aren't your thing though, I found some segments were quite difficult on Normal. I never could get the ending where you stay in Dubai, although that was partly because at that point I was so disgusted I didn't try very hard.

*It's arguable that the bit with the prisoners is a better subversion of RPGs than it is shooters. You're externally and arbitrarily given a choice about other people's lives that fails to enumerate an obvious solution. Subversively the game actually supports the third option, and ultimately the entire thing is shown to be a farce anyways.

[Scowling Dragon]

I found "Spec Ops: The Line", insulting and patronizing. I hope less people play it, and see it for the finger waving nanny that it is.

Yes Spec ops, I might feel heroic by killing a bunch of imaginary evil people that where made evil because in this digital game we can have it be that way.

Are you going to finger wave if I imagine Im killing terrorists? Or how about a P&P RPG where I do that?

[t209]

While its clearly aimed at military shooters, I honestly found it an effective commentary on gaming's reliance on the heroic use of violence in general. Most of what it's really saying by the end isn't specific to wanting to a hard army man, but the desire to kill things and feel good about it. OK, that one scene is definitely aiming at the Modern Warfare games, but it stands on it's own as well. What the game is fundamentally going after is the idea that we feel good about 'heroically' killing hordes of people for entertainment. I think pretty much everything in the game applies to Commander Shepard* as well as it does your average Modern Warfare protagonist

Speaking of Mass Effect, I'd say the shooting bits certainly aren't worse than those game. Definitely ahead of one, maybe a bit above 2. Probably worth playing on Easy if shooters aren't your thing though, I found some segments were quite difficult on Normal. I never could get the ending where you stay in Dubai, although that was partly because at that point I was so disgusted I didn't try very hard.

*It's arguable that the bit with the prisoners is a better subversion of RPGs than it is shooters. You're externally and arbitrarily given a choice about other people's lives that fails to enumerate an obvious solution. Subversively the game actually supports the third option, and ultimately the entire thing is shown to be a farce anyways.
Neon Genesis Evangelion of Shooter game
So does the only option to go forward is to "accidently" bomb on civilian tent reminds you of Shinji's Eva and the boy :smallfrown:.

[Scowling Dragon]

Thats right on the mark. Garbage paraded around as depth, or insight.

[Terraoblivion]

While its clearly aimed at military shooters, I honestly found it an effective commentary on gaming's reliance on the heroic use of violence in general. Most of what it's really saying by the end isn't specific to wanting to a hard army man, but the desire to kill things and feel good about it. OK, that one scene is definitely aiming at the Modern Warfare games, but it stands on it's own as well. What the game is fundamentally going after is the idea that we feel good about 'heroically' killing hordes of people for entertainment. I think pretty much everything in the game applies to Commander Shepard* as well as it does your average Modern Warfare protagonist

Speaking of Mass Effect, I'd say the shooting bits certainly aren't worse than those game. Definitely ahead of one, maybe a bit above 2. Probably worth playing on Easy if shooters aren't your thing though, I found some segments were quite difficult on Normal. I never could get the ending where you stay in Dubai, although that was partly because at that point I was so disgusted I didn't try very hard.

*It's arguable that the bit with the prisoners is a better subversion of RPGs than it is shooters. You're externally and arbitrarily given a choice about other people's lives that fails to enumerate an obvious solution. Subversively the game actually supports the third option, and ultimately the entire thing is shown to be a farce anyways.

Yeah, I can see that, but still that is something I'm quite aware of when I play and I generally don't play a lot of games where your primary way of solving problems is lethal violence against sapient beings, though when I do it's actually something I keep in mind. Not just that, if a game presents a viable, non-violent path to success I almost always pick that, leading me to be a huge peacenik in Civ and playing stealth games non-lethally. It's also one of the reasons I rather dislike action movies. So, it just seems like it's aiming at a revelation that I'm already familiar with.

[Cespenar]

As with all subversions (or deconstructions, or whatever the term), you have to have some connections to the actual genre that the subject is subverting to have it any effect on you.

[The_Jackal]

Yeah, I can see that, but still that is something I'm quite aware of when I play and I generally don't play a lot of games where your primary way of solving problems is lethal violence against sapient beings, though when I do it's actually something I keep in mind. Not just that, if a game presents a viable, non-violent path to success I almost always pick that, leading me to be a huge peacenik in Civ and playing stealth games non-lethally. It's also one of the reasons I rather dislike action movies. So, it just seems like it's aiming at a revelation that I'm already familiar with.

My problem with 'Spec Ops: The Line', and the witch hunt against violent games in general is that it's a culture war on escapism. The central conceit of which is, that you are not smart enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. It's really kind of insulting. Nobody's being harmed because I'm shooting some pixelated avatar of a dude in an online shooter, and the thesis that violent media are producing a generation of near-feral psychopaths is flatly contradicted by year over year crime rates which have steadily declined since the 1970s.

Now if you just take SO:TL as a commentary on the inhumanity of war, that's a fine thing to do, but spare me the condescending lecture about the moral implications of my escapist hobbies, please.

[huttj509]

My problem with 'Spec Ops: The Line', and the witch hunt against violent games in general is that it's a culture war on escapism. The central conceit of which is, that you are not smart enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. It's really kind of insulting. Nobody's being harmed because I'm shooting some pixelated avatar of a dude in an online shooter, and the thesis that violent media are producing a generation of near-feral psychopaths is flatly contradicted by year over year crime rates which have steadily declined since the 1970s.

Now if you just take SO:TL as a commentary on the inhumanity of war, that's a fine thing to do, but spare me the condescending lecture about the moral implications of my escapist hobbies, please.

I did not feel it was commenting on violent video games in general. However, it does sort of take aim at various FPS games based around war, and the glorified image they tend to present. At the same time, it has its own story, and presents it effectively (what I got from it is basically the main character has something like PTSD (probably not at all the right term, but they don't use one in-game and I don't know enough to know the right one) and is reliving various events. He can change small things, but not the larger ones, as he tries to seek 'salvation' and be able to forgive himself...or not).

I think, because it builds gradually, it more raises the question "how does this make you feel," as opposed to a blunt "what you like is wrong." If your experience with it is from review or discussion of it, or even playing after encountering the discussion, you can easily lose the gradual build, and it comes across much more blunt.

[warty goblin]

My problem with 'Spec Ops: The Line', and the witch hunt against violent games in general is that it's a culture war on escapism. The central conceit of which is, that you are not smart enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. It's really kind of insulting. Nobody's being harmed because I'm shooting some pixelated avatar of a dude in an online shooter, and the thesis that violent media are producing a generation of near-feral psychopaths is flatly contradicted by year over year crime rates which have steadily declined since the 1970s.

Now if you just take SO:TL as a commentary on the inhumanity of war, that's a fine thing to do, but spare me the condescending lecture about the moral implications of my escapist hobbies, please.
Given that Spec Ops is one of the most brutally violent titles I've ever played - and I've played some really gory stuff - I very much doubt it's central thesis is that playing violent games turns you into a sociopath. Would be a fairly strange stance for a violent shooter to take really, unless it's being released by Psychopathic Murderers International.

Don't get me wrong, it's pretty clearly talking about violence in games, and why we find it attractive. I don't think it's a particularly positive commentary either. Made me look at a bunch of my games and realize they're sorta pathetic, which made me feel fairly crappy for liking 'em in the first place. I don't think I even touched a shooter for a couple months after that. But not because the game convinced me that wasting virtual dudes was just one step away from launching my very own killing spree.

Spec Ops basically held up a mirror and said "You've spent hundreds of dollars and countless hours running pretend dudes around fake deserts butchering hordes of non-existent enemies you're arbitrarily made to feel good and empowered for killing. Insofar as it means anything, that's kinda sad."

So yes it did shout at me for my escapist hobbies a bit. I don't view occasionally getting a reality check as a bad thing though, even if it does make me profoundly uncomfortable for a while. For one thing it actually argued from a position of understanding what it was talking about, and it itself was quite careful to avoid attacking the player. All the player attacking is pretty much my reading of it.

Which is probably because of internalized self-loathing brought about by years of my Dad commenting how he feels like a failure as a father because I read books with dragons in them. Made being a teenager lots of fun.

[The_Jackal]

I don't view occasionally getting a reality check as a bad thing though, even if it does make me profoundly uncomfortable for a while.

I do. It's SNOBBERY. We live in a world with drug addiction, violent sports that cause real, permanent injuries, dysfunctional social policy driven by ideology instead of pragmatism, and an economic and educational system that borders on the Orwellian, and yet people are picking on Xbox Live as the source of our society's woes. It's not just that it's insulting, though it is, and it's not just that it's BS, though it is that too. It's that the fundamental, underlying message of our culture's indictment of violent (and sexual) fantasy is that you're committing thought crime. That by pretending to indulge the aggressive and violent instincts that are as essential to our animal nature as the need to breathe, you're somehow a bad person, worthy of contempt.

Look, society needs us to be upstanding, decent, moral people in real life, nobody can deny that. But extending cultural trammels even into our entertainment is, to me, an affront, and the people promoting that agenda need to mind their own hypocritical business.

[oblivion6]

I do. It's SNOBBERY. We live in a world with drug addiction, violent sports that cause real, permanent injuries, dysfunctional social policy driven by ideology instead of pragmatism, and an economic and educational system that borders on the Orwellian, and yet people are picking on Xbox Live as the source of our society's woes. It's not just that it's insulting, though it is, and it's not just that it's BS, though it is that too. It's that the fundamental, underlying message of our culture's indictment of violent (and sexual) fantasy is that you're committing thought crime. That by pretending to indulge the aggressive and violent instincts that are as essential to our animal nature as the need to breathe, you're somehow a bad person, worthy of contempt.

Look, society needs us to be upstanding, decent, moral people in real life, nobody can deny that. But extending cultural trammels even into our entertainment is, to me, an affront, and the people promoting that agenda need to mind their own hypocritical business.

Completely agree.

[Erik von Nein]

See, this is why Spec Ops: The Line succeeds so well. So many people come away feeling different things about the story. Where one person sees where the ultimate end of glorification through killing another sees pretensions to depth through critics of first person shooters. And that's why I feel the game succeeded so well. People are talking about what the story means to them.

I think the game makes it clear, through not-so-subtle loading cards what they were shooting for. It's then nature of seeking glory through death, through not putting your ego or sense of justice or revenge aside for the sake of the greater good (as it were). The opening even states (and one loading card reminds you) that the entire point was recon, but the character gets so obsessed with being the hero that he literally drags everyone else down with him in his self-absorbed quest.

It's amazing that the game's story even attempted to tackle issues relegated to movies (for the most part). Comparing it to the insanity of Vietnam in Apocalypse Now! or Full Metal Jacket is so incredibly important. They confront very similar images of America and it's culture (and it's reality) at the time. I just wish more games strived for similar relevance. It's sad that the Modern Warfare games almost reach that point, but back down seemingly at random.

[Erik von Nein]

And it's not so much a critique on escapism as it is on the nature of heroism through death, through killing to solve problems. It takes standard FPS/TPS shooter cliches and shows what would happen if they didn't work out, if the character was like most people, egotistical and damaged by his experiences with killing (like most people who've survived war) and who won't back down because of his belief (desperate as it is) that he is doing the right thing, in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

It's too bad, because everything about the game treats him as being completely in the wrong, but taking that as personally attacking the player for it is the wrong approach to take. Yes, you aren't supposed to feel good for actually making the world in the game a worse place, but you are supposed to experience how this world reacts to someone so ethically complex.

Walker isn't evil for his actions, he's entirely human because of them. Yes, he wants to be the hero and hallucinates when his world-view comes crashing down with the reality of dubai, but he's not necessarily wrong for wanting to help, he's just blinded by his biases.

EDIT:

How many other games can you think of that attack the problems of hero complexes and the brutality of war so effectively than Spec Ops? Everything about the game so perfectly encapsulates the slow destruction of humanity of the main character (from his own mental stability to the loading screens becoming more demented) than this game? If the developers wanted you to feel bad it was the casual destruction of de-humanized "enemies" than anything else. Not so much for what they represent in video games but for what they represent in our culture. "Enemies," "terrorists", hell even "Nazis" all are still human, all still have unique personalities and circumstances, and their cavalier destruction shouldn't be so easily tossed aside. Pure fantastical escapism wasn't, I believe, their criticism, just the way people go about de-humanizing their enemy, in spite of the human toll it takes on the soldiers, and the people we're killing, and on the people we're supposed to be helping.

[Scowling Dragon]

Ours is a culture that has become so world connected that we have become uncomfortable making any nation a "National enemy".

No recent movie has a "Anti Russia/ Nation" theme. Even Red Dawn Tanked.

I would argue that our culture has improved by a multitude.

And thats exactly the thing. We are ANIMALS. Killing is in our genetics. So we invent games and stuff to stop this stuff.

If I was playing cops and robbers, Spec ops would run onto the field, yelling at me that the robber probably has a family, and that Im glorifying the killing.

[Cespenar]

If I was playing cops and robbers, Spec ops would run onto the field, yelling at me that the robber probably has a family, and that Im glorifying the killing.

I thought in cops and robbers, the cops arrest the robbers rather than killing them.

If you guys were playing with killing instead, then maybe Spec Ops would be right to point that out. :smalltongue:

[Scowling Dragon]

Touche. I don't know how to PLAY cops and robbers. =P

Still, you get my jist...Right? I get a story about the horrors of war, but being patronizing is something else.

[Cespenar]

Of course your point came across, but I'd think you're taking it a bit too seriously. I didn't see the game as patronizing, for example, as much as it's giving someone a chance to patronize oneself - if one wants.

I think both the hate and love (and indifference, I guess) towards it is pretty expected and organic, though. It tried something, which might ring true by some and not by others, but at least it tried.

[Triaxx]

Of course Spec Ops is also missing that those people the robbers stole from were also killed in the course of the robbery, and don't they deserve justice as well.

[Scowling Dragon]

Actually It WOULD pick that up and chastise the robber player for perpetuating the idea of theft as "Cool".

[huttj509]

Of course Spec Ops is also missing that those people the robbers stole from were also killed in the course of the robbery, and don't they deserve justice as well.

No, it does not miss that. It addresses that. It it much more on the side of "raising the question" than "giving the answer."

[Wookieetank]

*Thread derailment with interesting discussion of SO:TL*

Back on topic, I've found myself rather hooked on The Dream Machine these past couple of days. Its a point and click adventure, so I know its not for everyone, but if you ever wondered what it was like to play a game where Tim Burton was in charge of the visuals, this is probably the closest you could hope to get.

[Scowling Dragon]

No, it does not miss that. It addresses that. It it much more on the side of "raising the question" than "giving the answer."

No Im pretty sure it does: "This BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD".

Its much more chastising then asking.

Or at least its using questions to chastise:

"How many Americans have you killed today?"

None, spec ops. None.

[Tavar]

Are your enemies in parts of Spec Ops: The Line American? If so, then your answer isn't exactly truthful.

[Scowling Dragon]

Thats literally a line from the game :smallannoyed:.

And yes, it goes all Apocalypse now on your buts.

[Illieas]

Ghost trick
The quirky people who made phoenix wright make quirky puzzle game. It one that few have played sadly.

Beyond good and evil
though i think peope have spread word of mouth enough that gamers have given its justice over time

C&C renegade
Sure the single player was bad but damn is the multiplayer fun.

[Tavar]

Thats literally a line from the game :smallannoyed:.

And yes, it goes all Apocalypse now on your buts.

Look at my post again. I know it is a line from the game. But considering that there are American enemies in the game, if you played it then you had to kill some Americans.

[Wookieetank]

Ghost trick
The quirky people who made phoenix wright make quirky puzzle game. It one that few have played sadly.

Beyond good and evil
though i think peope have spread word of mouth enough that gamers have given its justice over time

C&C renegade
Sure the single player was bad but damn is the multiplayer fun.

The first two are on my bucket list of games. Just need steam to quit having sales.... :smallsigh:

Haven't played Renegade, but watched my roomie in college play it. As terribad as single player was gameplay wise, it was quite entertaining listening to how ridiculous some of the dialog was.

[Scowling Dragon]

No I didn't. I killed a bunch of imaginary pixel people.

I meant that it was trying to be "deep" or whatever, and for me it was a simple response of "No. I didn't. Stop trying to guilt trip me"

Moving this HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268943)

[Zevox]

Beyond good and evil
though i think peope have spread word of mouth enough that gamers have given its justice over time
Truth be told, I think that game fading into obscurity was its justice. I played it at the urging of plenty of people, and found it completely mediocre, aside from some unintentional humor at how bad the guard AI was.

[warty goblin]

On a different note, it saddens me that the Game of Thrones RPG seems to have been nearly universally ignored. It's far from flawless, but once it got rolling it managed one hell of a story. A story that evolved into a rumination on the central ethical problem(s) of the first book no less.

The use of two player characters was also a masterstroke. It allowed the game to cover time and space far more efficiently and engagingly than a single-perspective game. The two-character system also made the central conflict an actual decision between two viable alternatives, instead of the usual player single-character manachian simplicity.

To be fair the first part of the game was slow as mud, the graphics were only OK, and the combat took some getting used to. It was a pretty fun system once a person did get into it though.

[Scowling Dragon]

Thats a common problem. When the hype overshadows what even the game is. My experience with FF7.

[Illieas]

Truth be told, I think that game fading into obscurity was its justice. I played it at the urging of plenty of people, and found it completely mediocre, aside from some unintentional humor at how bad the guard AI was.

well in context. There were very few action adventures back when it released. Now the stealth and action adventures are plentiful which i have been enjoying now. the story and music were pretty good. So i think it gotten its fair dues now. still wish a sequel came out one E3 they tease it and nothing for years.

[Kinsmarck]

Ehrgeiz: God Bless the Ring.

One of the first truly 3-D fighters, with visuals akin to FFVIII, crossover characters from FFVII, and a fully fleshed-out dungeon crawling alternate mode.

Einhander

Beautiful visuals for its time, an amazing soundtrack (which I listen to on my own time to this day), and fast-paced, diverse side-scrolling action that keeps delivering entertainment to the very end.

[MLai]

Ehrgeiz: God Bless the Ring.
One of the first truly 3-D fighters, with visuals akin to FFVIII, crossover characters from FFVII, and a fully fleshed-out dungeon crawling alternate mode.
Squarenix should really just make a dedicated Final Fantasy Franchise fighter, with both a tournament arena mode and also a story brawler mode ala Guardian Heroes.

[Gnoman]

Genesia/Ultimate domain was an excellent game. It was one of the few games I recall to focus on individual citizens, and the gameplay revolved around constructing buildings, micromanaging labor assignments, and researching for your eventual conquest. It was also one of those wierd in-between media games of the mid 90's, availiable on bot Floppy and CD, with the latter having a few more features (primarily speech, I think.)

[Geno9999]

Squarenix should really just make a dedicated Final Fantasy Franchise fighter, with both a tournament arena mode and also a story brawler mode ala Guardian Heroes.

As in Dissidia Final Fantasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissidia_Final_Fantasy)?

[Mando Knight]

Speaking of, they should release one for a system that actually gets support. Like the 3DS or a home console or Steam.

[Terraoblivion]

Speaking of, they should release one for a system that actually gets support. Like the 3DS or a home console or Steam.

They're primarily targeting the Japanese market where the PSP was hugely successful, a fair bit more so than home consoles and far, far more than Steam, which is a very western service. The 3DS would make sense, but it wasn't on the market when they made the Dissidia releases there have been.

[MLai]

Ah, the PSP. So many games I would lap up in an instant if they were available on the console (even as a straight port with no graphical updates etc). Dissidia would be one (forgot it existed since I don't have the PSP), the FF Tactics remake would be the other.

As for "they're primarily targeting the JPN market"... then why is the FFT remake the best, very best, English localization ever done, of any game in existence? The only reason I want to re-experience it is because of the snippets I've seen of the new English localization. What little I've seen was astounding, for game, movie, or book.

A question for the knowledgeable ppl: Is there any way to experience FFT remake if I don't have a PSP (I do have PS3 and PC)? Hell, is there a script I can download? I'm just afraid a script would be missing a lot, such as generic enemy dialogue.

As for Steam... I can get it here, and I know many here who do use it. Singapore is English-speaking though, so it's more akin to AUS than to places like CHN or TWN.

[Gnoman]

If you have the original FFT disc, and a means of playing backup PS1 discs, there exists a mod that replaces the text. The extra content (multiplayer, 2 classes, and a couple of extra characters and items) are not addable.

[Wamyen]

I count at least four - Aidyn Chronicles, Ogre Battle 64, Quest 64, and Paper Mario. And Makensha named a couple I've never heard of above.

I always thought Ogre Battle 64 pinged more as an RTS really, and I disliked paper mario so much I didn't even think about it. Never really cared for any of the post 2D Mario titles. Even some of the original Aidyn Chronicles reviews only acknowledged Aidyn Chronicles and Quest 64 as true RPGs. Maybe a bit of a narrow view but I can also see where they are coming from.

[Zovc]

Phantom Dust. This game launched as a bargain bin title at the end of the original Xbox's lifespan. I picked the game up for $20, and that was easily one of the best investments of my life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Dust

It's hard to find information on the game, and it's very unique and hard to convey. It's a real-time action card battle game. It plays out similarly to a third-person action game where you use a custom "arsenal" (deck) of "skills" (cards). The gameplay is somewhat awkward to get used to, but it's extremely tight, responsive, and precise. Phantom Dust is the most intuitive skill-based game I've ever played. My heart breaks every time I'm reminded of the game, because no one has heard of it, and no one is interested in getting an original Xbox to play it with me. I claim with confidence that it'd be one of the best competitive games ever, if it could amass a following.

Furthermore, Phantom Dust's story is surreal, abstract, engaging, and has some really captivating twists. I make fun of the game's dialogue and missions, but every single mission in the game advances the plot and/or develops characters. Friends who have watched me play through the game were engaged in the story, would make fun of my teammates' characteristics, and would get floored by developments. The single player missions still challenge me to this day, having played through the game four times now, and I still haven't figured out good approaches to some of the bosses.

Every time you lose in Phantom Dust, you've been beat. You've fallen into a trap or combo attack, or you've mis-timed your defense, dodge, and/or counter. Some of the bosses' attacks are a little unfair, but they're bosses!

I love Phantom Dust.

I'd also like to mention Time Stalkers (Or Climax Lander in Japan) for the Dreamcast and Guilty Gear Isuka for the PS2. Guardian Heroes fans should look into Guilty Gear Isuka. Be warned that that game is ball busting-ly hard.

Edit: I believe there are two Ogre Battle games that are older than Ogre Battle 64, and they play very similarly. If I'm not mistaken, there was one on the SNES, and one on the Playstation. I think they are the same story, but the PSX version has the makings of the 64 game's mechanics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre_Battle:_The_March_of_the_Black_Queen

[Triaxx]

I know of at least one review which only counted Aidyn Chronicles as an RPG. Which is a pity, since Quest was awesome. Of course the same review gave AC a 0.5 score.

[Wamyen]

I know of at least one review which only counted Aidyn Chronicles as an RPG. Which is a pity, since Quest was awesome. Of course the same review gave AC a 0.5 score. Quest 64 was rather entertaining, unfortunately I didn't have a chance to play it all the way through. Also Aidyn Chronicles was very under rated in my opinion. It had the curse of being a game with bad graphics for the platform it was on, late in the platform cycle. I think everybody got so fixated on "next gen graphics" from the previews of the PS2 at the time that not many reviewers were willing to put in the time with AC to see the carefully crafted, but rather linear story. It's a shame really. I wish THQ (I think that was the company that produced Aidyn?) had held out for a next gen platform with memory cards and multiple discs. Production values on a game that large and ambitious, were probably severely limited by the platform.