Core Only Characters

[McClintock]

Is it possible, outside of the big 4 casters, to build an extremely optimized character in core only rules?

I'm talking about Bard, Paladin, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Fighter. Is it possible to be uber-optimized as one of these? (Using the assumption that the rest of my party is under-optimized. [Party Make-up consists of a natural spell Druid (former NPC), a Warlock, a Scout, and a Fighter/Paladin]

This character would replace my dervish from another thread. I want to present the DM with options for swapping me out of the rest of the campaign, to ease the tension.

[IdleMuse]

You say Core-only, but then mention Warlock and Dervish, both of which are from various Complete books. Traditionally, Core-only means, PHB, DMG, MM only, what is your list of allowed sources?

[McClintock]

Correct, I want to prove a point and play core only so the DM will shut up about how powerful the "other" books are

[DEMON]

I'm talking about Bard, Paladin, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Fighter.

Was excluding Ranger an oversight or did you left him out on purpose? Not that he´s necesarilly the one to break the game or anything, just curious.

[Flickerdart]

Our very own Saph made the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415), which is a very competent melee character. You can also make good mounted chargers, even if Valorous isn't in the picture. Spirited charge, two-handing a lance, that's *4 damage, which cancels out a lack of iteratives. If you're feeling adventurous, were-leopard gives you Pounce and 3 natural attacks plus 2 rakes for 2 LA and 3 RHD.

[McClintock]

sorry, I am at work AFB and it was an oversight. Actually I love rangers. My fondest character memories are 2nd ed rangers. SO no, it was just an oversight.

[ericgrau]

Barbarian 1 / fighter 8 / sorc 1 / dragon disciple X is pretty good. Besides being one of the hardest hitters you can load up on wands, staffs and scrolls to add a lot of tricks. Also a nice high strength for tripping if you want.
6 levels of horizon walker for at will dimension door ferrying the party through dungeons and away from danger is nice.
A straight bard with the right spell selection is pretty good, close to a full caster.
Without a million buffs from others available an arcane archer is quite strong, better than a core cleric archer. It becomes a hair weaker than other options and gets hate under the assumption of high level pay with an eager caster buffer in your party, but this is not the case for you. It does take good gear and level 11+ WBL to really take off though. I hope your DM isn't treasure stingy.
In general if the party isn't that well optimized then a paladin, barbarian or fighter will do really well simply from hitting things so hard.
Monk can do well too but it takes a lot of work and it works better with at least one buffer in your party. Your only buffer is the druid which is something but as a DMPC it's even harder to coordinate. Grappling or stunning a lot plus tripping or disarming a lot is also a good idea. Punching is not, except to stun.
Rogue likewise requires a lot of DM cooperation for your skills to work well. I don't know why but DMs always seem to fudge against them rather than working by the rules.
I've heard of low op DMs who ban spiked chains. Under limited optimization it may now be one of your best options, perhaps even one that goes too far.


So I'd say anything except monk or rogue could work out very well. Monk or rogue could work well with a lot of work and DM discussion.

EDIT: Core rangers run into problems similar to rogues with skills. Without fully effective skills they are mostly like fighters but with less bonus feats.

[Flickerdart]

So I'd say anything except monk or rogue could work out very well. Monk or rogue could work well with a lot of work.
Were-leopard makes a good Rogue (Wereleopard Rogue 15 loses 2 special abilities and +2d6 SA but has five attacks on a charge and Hide/MS bonuses), and Assassin gives them spells so they can be cool too. Assassins qualify for Dragon Disciple, too, so after you complete it, you can get 4 extra 4th level spell slots. A bit of work, but not a lot, especially compared to Monk.

[ericgrau]

Is were-leopard core?

I focused more on the rogue skills because without them their combat skills are lacking and they will simply fall behind others by a noticeable margin. Sure you can try, but they are incredibly fragile and don't get that many actual SA triggered hits even when you pump up their number of attacks and their damage. Even when you take time to set up more reliable SAs that's time lost that could go to damage, and some things are immune. Especially without a party buffer to greater invis the rogue. Until he gets a ring of blinking the flanker is wide open to attack.

Assassin => dragon disciple could help defenses and add casting (albeit with severely limited options), but it's still worse than simply going fighter => dragon disciple unless you have good skills.

Maybe he has a great DM and all this is moot. OTOH even with great skills I'd still want to avoid or mitigate the dangers of melee as much as possible. A good DM would only change whether I'd select a rogue in the first place.

I've seen a lot of great monks, especially in casual groups with limited optimization like the OP, so I think the hate is mostly from forums. Still they have a steep learning curve. Plus it would be better if he had more buffers before attempting one. Come to think of it the monks I've played with were all medium to good (all my groups are casual). I've only seen the bad maxed wis I-only-punch-things-and-that's-it monks online. I'm still not comfortable recommending one, but if the OP feels up to he could try a stunner/flurry-TWF-kama-tripper. Or if there are a lot of humanoid enemies then a grappler/disarmer. Add potions of enlarge person (round 1), potions of mage armor (before every dungeon) and greater magic fang from the druid (in the morning).

[Flickerdart]

Is were-leopard core?Leopard and Lycanthrope are both core, yes.



Assassin => dragon disciple could help defenses and add casting (albeit with severely limited options), but it's still worse than simply going fighter => dragon disciple unless you have good skills.
Fighters would need to dip Bard or something to get in, and don't get as much from the claw/claw/bite because they two-hand their weapons. All the stuff after 5th level except wings is crap anyway. Overall, I would say that the increased utility offsets any combat disadvantage that may exist.

[ericgrau]

I didn't know you could make new were-creatures other than those listed. I still can't find a section for that.

Fighterish / sorc 1 / dragon disciple X is the hardest melee hitter I've ever tested in core (uses a weapon not claws), so I'm skeptical about something doing better. All those rogue levels still seem to add d6's in hp, low armor and medium BAB. Pounce is very helpful but you still need to set up a good flank which might mean attempting a tumble at a -5 penalty so you can charge. And that's only after your ally moves to the far side of an enemy, which is far from easy. Actually I'm not sure how you pull this off round 2 at all. Normally flanks only make it to the left and right of a foe not the far side. A ring of blinking might save it on level 12-13 or so but even with a reliable trigger it seems like low hits from a low attack bonus and 20% miss chance (though you can finally survive). And you need a strength based rogue to take advantage of dragon disciple, which means even lower AC. I just don't see it meshing well at all.

[Flickerdart]

I didn't know you could make new were-creatures other than those listed. I still can't find a section for that.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#creatingALycanthrope

"The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous or omnivorous creature of the animal type (referred to hereafter as the base animal)."

[ericgrau]

That's still a stretch, until I read the next sentence:
"This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature)."

Works for me.

The stats on the leopard seem good and it's an interesting concept. I'd like to see one put together some time with all stat totals. Probably around level 12 or so for the ring of blinking. And because its first level of DD can't come until level 9. Maybe I'll make a note of it but it'll be a long time before I have time to put one together myself. Dang already wasted too much time today <grumble> <grumble>.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've seen a lot of great monks, especially in casual groups with limited optimization like the OP, so I think the hate is mostly from forums. Still they have a steep learning curve. Plus it would be better if he had more buffers before attempting one. Come to think of it the monks I've played with were all medium to good (all my groups are casual). I've only seen the bad maxed wis I-only-punch-things-and-that's-it monks online. I'm still not comfortable recommending one, but if the OP feels up to he could try a stunner/flurry-TWF-kama-tripper. Or if there are a lot of humanoid enemies then a grappler/disarmer. Add potions of enlarge person (round 1), potions of mage armor (before every dungeon) and greater magic fang from the druid (in the morning).

I'll second monks for being interesting and challenging to op, especially if you aren't allowing yourself some kind of multiclass heading toward enlightened-ish or sacred fist. I think that monk can be great flavor, and has some useful strategic abilities. It's hard if you are core only, though, as I have become a big fan of a scout-type monk using the feats for switching from wis-based to int-based, but even with the wisdom focus, monks can be pretty good with the Listen and Spot checks. If you can manage good stealth as well, then you can be good scout that can outrun trouble if you run into it; talk to DM about applying armour enchants to either bracers of armour (expensive, but mentioned in a book somewhere) or to AC 0 monk's robes (basically magical clothing that takes up the body slot), and pick up the stealth boost enchantments.

Key here, since monk support in core is close to non-existent, is verifying if the DM allows Improved Natural Attack to apply to unarmed strike. By RAW, it seems that the answer is very much yes, it is allowed. I mention it because some DMs have sometimes waffled over monks using this, but I think that your DM is hopefully more sensible? Without it, challenge does increase considerably, and basically makes the monk weapons list relevant for a longer portion of your career (barring a campaign with lots of demons, devils, or werewolves, where your unarmed strike will suffer even more due to material-based DR coming into play).

In any case, if you can prove that you can pimp monk out, even with the help of non-core ACFs, then I'm sure your DM can't complain about your skills. Beware spell resistance, though, and the incredibly temptation that is [grtr] mighty wallop (Races of the Dragon), though you'd have to get an ally to cast it on you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, the casters are the powerful part of the core books. The other classes are relatively weak, so the point you're trying to make is a bit confusing. Perhaps what you're trying to say is that you can make a more powerful character than your current one, even with heavy-handed restrictions?

From the other thread I assume you're making a level 15 character. Assuming you want to avoid monstrous characters (the DM will just erroneously infer that monstrous characters are OP), I'd go with ericgrau's Dragon Disciple. Not exactly versatile, but it has big numbers, which is what will convince your DM.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, in core, the casters are the power... the rest of the book is mostly underpowered stuff (fighter, monk, paladin), with only a tiiiiny bit of 'at a medium power level' stuff.

I would call the 'moderate power level' classes in core these:

Barbarian
Rogue
Adept
Ranger
Bard

[ericgrau]

In an under-optimized party it isn't that hard to make high powered characters of the other classes.

I almost went onto a tangent into some bans and things that ended up being overpowered in campaigns I was in, but it'd be so unusual here it's too close to trolling. Everything's different at lower optimization.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Everything's different at lower optimization.I think there's oddly low optimization, to which you refer, and there's regular low optimization, where the group at least knows that druids can rock some socks. The OP is in the best position to explain what kind of group he's in, but either group could be spooked by a 40+ AC dervish.

[bobthe6th]

Core Colosseum (http://community.wizards.com/coco/go/forum/viewboard) is a gladiator game were you play with optimized characters in a core only environment.

[Muktidata]

Fighter 1/Paladin 3/Sorceror 1/Dragon Disciple 10/X 5

Go Small, Leadership for a core Dire Bat, cast True Strike, Charge with Power Attack, Lance, Spirited Charge. Immune to fear and + to saves is nice. DD is for more true strike castings and strength boost for its 1.5 on a lance. At level 3 that character does a ton of damage for its level in a pretty big threat range. Don't forget the rearing rules for handle animal. Starting the game with a pretty ridiculous core mount will be nice. Also, note it only talks about HD. Take 20 to its limits. >:[

[nedz]

Monk can work, but it needs to be buffed — MAD helps here.
Druid can do this with things like Magic Fang and the various stat boosts — but will the DMPC go for that ?
Items can help with this, but what is the wealth level of the game ?

Barbarian is probably a better bet — usual power attack trick.

Maybe go into Horizon Walker for the resistances and the Dim Door — it is full BAB and the skills fit fairly well. But you would have to dip Bard or Ranger for the Know(Geog).

Barbarian/Ranger could work for a stealthy MS.

Is there any way, other than Druid, of getting pounce in core ?

[Muktidata]

I'm seeing a trend here of threads having near exact same posts crash against their shores.

"Barbarian is pretty good. Monk has a hard time. Fighter gets feats - don't level it too much though."

For any build, I think tricks are what will save the day. Orc is still a strong race. UMD + Alter Self, Divine Power (personal fav), Enlarge Person, etc is nice. Permanency is effective. Consider Enlarge Person (~2800g), +5 Magic Fang, and Improved NA if going monk or NA build. Right now in my core game I'm playing a monk using Enlarge Person, a large quarterstaff, and Shileagh. Dust of Sneezing and Choking is good. A Cleric dip for Travel and Luck is a boon to most builds. You might realistically be able to use a Candle once with the right RP. I wouldn't try wishing for another candle, though.