12th level munchkinnery

[Yora]

To be more precise, assuming a medium level of cheese (no extremely generous reading of RAW, only three character classes, no planar binding efreets), but a quite generous amount of planning and optimization, how crazy can you get with a 12th level wizard, cleric, or druid?

In a setting with only a dozen or so NPCs of 11th level and higher, but generous amounts of 8th and 9th level characters running around, how advantage could such high level characters get. Not just in direct assaults but also long term manipulation.
Excluding the size of armies made up from common soldiers and monsters, as that really is mostly in the hand of GMs what any major powers are starting with.

[docnessuno]

The basic answer is: 6th level spells/powers.
From level 9 to 11 that's the only really meaningful gap, exluding some specific PRC features that might be gained in those 2-3 levels or early entry tricks.

[toapat]

Does it have to be Wizard?

because i can make a Midgard Dwarf of 12th ECL (6 Anything, but preferably Artificer so i can bind elementals for enchanting) that pilots a helicarrier.

[Story]

12th level is also the point where Warlocks get their only good class feature.

[Archmage1]

Wizard: wiz 5, incantatrix 3, ultimate magus 4
Spontaneous divination qualifies for ultimate magus
so, you are a full caster that persists 12 effects per day, so functionally invulnerable, you have immunity to gdm and dm, so not too worried about dispels.
you have a cl of 14, which is nice
If your DM accepts the extreme cheese ruling, you have an effective caster level of 14, and a cl of 16, but don't count on that.
boost your spellcraft, and call it a day.
Specialize in conjuration, have abrupt jaunt.

[ahenobarbi]

The basic answer is: 6th level spells/powers.
From level 9 to 11 that's the only really meaningful gap, exluding some specific PRC features that might be gained in those 2-3 levels or early entry tricks.

Like capstones of Shadowcraft Mage and Malconvoker, access to Initiate of Sevenfold Veil. Incantantrix can get capstone at level 8 though.

[nedz]

Savage Bard 5 / Ur-Priest 7 gets you 7ths

[ahenobarbi]

Wizard: wiz 5, incantatrix 3, ultimate magus 4
Spontaneous divination qualifies for ultimate magus

What good is Ultimate Magus? It gives you CL boost and 2 bonus feats which is nice but that's it. There are better PrCs.

[toapat]

What good is Ultimate Magus? It gives you CL boost and 2 bonus feats which is nice but that's it. There are better PrCs.

hes doubling up wizard progression with it

but hes actually doing alot of Munchkinry there, because it being able to cast spontaneously is not a spontaneous caster level

[Sgt. Cookie]

There's always room for Symbiote shenanigins. Like a Maximised Empowered Awaken cast on a plant, for a base 27 to all mental ability scores.

[toapat]

There's always room for Symbiote shenanigins. Like a Maximised Empowered Awaken cast on a plant, for a base 27 to all mental ability scores.

You forgot intensify. There has to be a way to get Intensify on that thing.

[nedz]

Beguiler 5 / Ur Priest 2 / MT 5 gets you 5ths and 7ths
Ed: missing Know (Religeon) :smallfrown:

[docnessuno]

No extremely generous reading of RAW

I think double-dipping UM is clearly against the stated workframe, as well as the symbionts tricks.

Good catch on UP, i somehow remembered he gets level X spells at level X.

[Archmage1]

The entry into ultimate magus works by raw, although any sane dm would say no double dipping.
The main power is the 3 levels of incantatrix though, as that is basically the definition of power.
I will say that I was not seriously thinking of the double dipping, more of the +2 cl, which is nice

Wizard 9 Incantatrix 3 would be almost as good.
Something about persist is awesome...

[nedz]

Wizard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / MT 5 gets you 5ths and 7ths
Changeling Wizard (RE, p 123) for Bluff as a class skill on Wizard.

[Sgt. Cookie]

You forgot intensify. There has to be a way to get Intensify on that thing.

Before epic levels? I don't think that's doable.


I think double-dipping UM is clearly against the stated workframe, as well as the symbionts tricks.

Good catch on UP, i somehow remembered he gets level X spells at level X.

No, that's clear cut RAW, the guest's mental scores (Which we just upped, considerably) are used for the Symbiote.

[toapat]

Before epic levels? I don't think that's doable.

There has to be a way with Kobolds.

[Story]

The entry into ultimate magus works by raw, although any sane dm would say no double dipping.

Actually, it's extremely dubious even by RAW.

[Spuddles]

Savage Bard 5 / Ur-Priest 7 gets you 7ths

Versatile Spellcaster gets you 8ths.

Hello, polymorph any object.

[Archmage1]

Not really. You can spontaneously cast a 1st level spell, and prepare a 2nd level spell, so no worries at all.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Druid 12 lets you take Dragon Wild Shape in addition to spellcasting, which gets you immunities, senses, mobility and substantial AC Boosts.
It's hard to get more versatility for a single feat once you get into the more exotic dragons.

[toapat]

Actually, it's extremely dubious even by RAW.

no it isnt, if you can spontaneously cast first level arcane divinations, and prepare second level arcane spells, you qualify.

the problem is the class is then only 8/10 casting for you.

[Archmage1]

no it's not. my spontaneous class is wizard, and the prepared class is wizard.
Also, wouldn't it be 7/10?

[toapat]

no it's not. my spontaneous class is wizard, and the prepared class is wizard.
Also, wouldn't it be 7/10?

yes, its 7/10, it is very hard to see that though.

Wizard, even with ACFs, doesnt qualify as a Spontaneous Arcane Casting Class.

they are a Prepared Arcane casting class with spontaneous divinations. The ACF doesnt change them to be considered both.

[Archmage1]

Spontaneous divination, from complete champion, says otherwise.

If you want mass casting,
wiz 1/cleric 1/mt 9
(one more of wiz or cleric)
gets you 6 and 5th level casting, and burns through 2 feats.

You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination
school by sacrifi cing a prepared spell of equal or greater
level. For example, if you suddenly have need of the 2nd-level
spell locate object, you can sacrifi ce a prepared 2nd-level spell
(such as mirror image) or any prepared spell of a higher level
to cast it on the spot.

Spontaneous casting is spontaneous casting

[toapat]

Spontaneous casting is spontaneous casting

no, it is not.

Spontaneous Casting is typically a pre-requisite

Spontaineous Casting Class is an attribute of classes. Wizards are Prepared Arcane spellcasting classes, just as clerics are Prepared divine spellcasting classes who can spontaineously cast Wounds spells.

[Archmage1]

the requirement is not to be a spontaneous caster. it is to be able to spontaneously cast a 1st level spell, which spontaneous divination does do.

[toapat]

the requirement is not to be a spontaneous caster. it is to be able to spontaneously cast a 1st level spell, which spontaneous divination does do.

qualifying into the class does not mean you get the 14/10 progression.

[Archmage1]

That does depend on the DM's reading. As a dm, I would not allow it, but it does make it a 10/10 casting class at a minimum, and if you can convince the DM that existing spontaneous arcane casting class is the class used to qualify for um in the first place, then you get 17/10 casting.
10 is certain. null and 0 are not the same thing, so your lower casting class is wizard, either way.

By Raw, who knows. Depends on the reading of existing spontaneous casting class(however, since it exists, and it must do so to get in, you can certainly argue very persuasively for it)

And, please, read the class.
it is 7/10, 10/10, and 17/10
not 8/10 or 14/10

[JaronK]

Simple one: Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 8. You get multiple free metamagics (I recommend Extending spells, then free Persisting them). You get some awesome vestiges to work with. And you're just downright strong.

JaronK

[Archmage1]

Can we get some stuff that is not arcane in here? This was meant to be wiz cleric, and archivist.
Someone might want to mention STP erudite as well.

[JaronK]

Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 8, using the divine adaptation of Anima Mage? It actually works as well as the Wizard version.

JaronK

[Archmage1]

DMM persist cleric.
Archivist... Not really sure. Their main power is getting every spell in the game on their list.

[toapat]

And, please, read the class.
it is 7/10, 10/10, and 17/10
not 8/10 or 14/10

You dont have a lower arcane casting class, or a higher arcane casting class with the Pure wizard entry, so you cant apply 3/10 level ups.

Because RAW Wizard is a Prepared Arcane Spellcaster (and only an ACF that outright changes them entirely to full spontaneous casting will change that), they dont qualify to get double progression.

[Archmage1]

then you are arguing for 7/10, which is unsupportable by raw.

your lowest level casting class is wizard. There is no other option.
a character that is a level 1 commoner, is not a level 0 in every class in the game. he is a level 1 commoner.

[toapat]

then you are arguing for 7/10, which is unsupportable by raw.

your lowest level casting class is wizard. There is no other option.
a character that is a level 1 commoner, is not a level 0 in every class in the game. he is a level 1 commoner.

You may not have any other classes, but Wizard is your only, and highest, spellcasting class. Lowest is by definition the opposite of highest. You cant apply the boost as a result.

[nedz]

Spontaneous divination, from complete champion, says otherwise.

If you want mass casting,
wiz 1/cleric 1/mt 9
(one more of wiz or cleric)
gets you 6 and 5th level casting, and burns through 2 feats.

You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination
school by sacrifi cing a prepared spell of equal or greater
level. For example, if you suddenly have need of the 2nd-level
spell locate object, you can sacrifi ce a prepared 2nd-level spell
(such as mirror image) or any prepared spell of a higher level
to cast it on the spot.

Spontaneous casting is spontaneous casting
Why not wiz 1/cleric 1/mt 10 ?
With the usual early entry tricks.
This gets you double 6ths.
Ed: Doesn't work — obviously :smallredface:

[Archmage1]

or... highest level is the opposite of lowest.

We are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. Any DM would decide the way they wanted to, as RAW is not decisive on this point.

We have both stated our opinions, so there is not really anything else to be said on the topic of ultimate magus cheese.

That said, anyone else have any awesome builds?

Or should I propose Wiz 2/Fighter 4/Arcane Archer 6?
Or maybe just Truenamer 12?

Nedz: aren't those skills vicious?

[TiaC]

Necropolitan Wizard 5/Spelldancer 1/Shadowcraft mage (5 or 3)/IoSfV (1 or 3)
Persist everything!

Alternatively, Phaerimm Sorcerer 10 (12 w/LA buyoff) add PrCs to taste
Cast as a 20+ level Sorceror at level 12.

[nedz]

Nedz: aren't those skills vicious?

I thought you were adding the extra level afterwards, rather than before :smallamused:

Anyway:

Wiz 4 / Warlock 1 / Eldritch Theurge 7
With a Chasuble for early entry
Gets you Wizard 11 casting and Warlock 8 for Invocations
So 6ths and Lessers

[Archmage1]

Well, technically, the op did not specify ecl 12, but level 12, so you could just throw every template that seems vaguely useful on there as well.
But yea, the living cones are sort of op, and so are never used. Everyone hates on the aberrations.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Why not wiz 1/cleric 1/mt 10 ?
With the usual early entry tricks.
This gets you double 6ths.
Ed: Doesn't work — obviously :smallredface:

Yes it does, you just need to use worse early entry tricks to get temporary hit dice and psionic reformation to set up the ranks to enter.

[Archmage1]

maybe, but I don't know them off of the top of my head, so I did not mention them.
Also, if you are using psychic reformation, why not go in as an elf, reformation those nifty proficiencies, then reincarnate as whatever you want(losing you a level)(and avoiding LA and rhd, as a 00 gets you anything)

[Sgt. Cookie]

Everyone hates on the aberrations.

Symbiote disagrees with you. Strongly.

[Archmage1]

While I see it mentioned here, repeatedly, I have never actually seen a character that saw play with one.

[nedz]

Elf (or Half Elf) Monk 2 / Druid 3 / Seeker of the Misty Isle 7
For Druid 9 casting, lots of skills, Travel and Magic Domains.
Make the Druid spontaneous, Make the Monk a tripper (Passive way) and take Sun School for a Bamf Tripper.

[Sgt. Cookie]

While I see it mentioned here, repeatedly, I have never actually seen a character that saw play with one.

I would think that it's due to the shenanigins involving that template hadn't been brought up till late last year. Almost a decade after Savage Species was printed.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I would think that it's due to the shenanigins involving that template hadn't been brought up till late last year. Almost a decade after Savage Species was printed.
The handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863774/Symbiotic_Creature_Template_-_Handbook) is dated 2007.

Cheese is faddish.

[Story]

Not really. You can spontaneously cast a 1st level spell, and prepare a 2nd level spell, so no worries at all.

That lets you qualify, but it doesn't let you get the benefits of dual progression.

There are multiple problems. A) Just because you can spontaneously cast spells as a Wizard doesn't necessarily mean that Wizard is a "spontaneous spellcasting class". B) Even if the same class qualifies under both categories, nothing in RAW suggests that you actually get the benefit twice.

At best you can get 10/10 by RAW, but even then it's still an extremely good Prc.

[Archmage1]

Yep, although your mileage may vary.
Essencially, it depends on how gullible your DM is.
If he immediatly agrees, be suspicious. be very suspicious.

Still, entry is uncontestable, as is 10/10 casting.
considering that you get +4 cl over those 10 levels, as well as some other stuff...

[Story]

Actually, the CL boost is pretty much it. Expanded Spell Knowledge is obviously out and the metamagic thing requires that the slots come from two different arcane classes.

[Archmage1]

You get a couple of bonus feats as well.
And you might be able to convince your DM to allow augmented casting and Expanded Spell knowledge as well(although I would suggest keeping the requests simple)

[Spuddles]

I would think that it's due to the shenanigins involving that template hadn't been brought up till late last year. Almost a decade after Savage Species was printed.

It's been a well known bug for quite some time, but a lot of the pioneering TO has been lost to numerous board purges.

[Archmage1]

hey, don't complain too much. If we all already knew everything printed on 3.5(including posts and such), it would take a lot of the fun out of it.

Besides, eventually... Eventually... someone will be able to come up with a fighter build that can out wizard the wizard, and everyone will be amazed.

But yea. We are fairly off topic.
So
Druid 5/planar shepherd 7

[nedz]

Besides, eventually... Eventually... someone will be able to come up with a fighter build that can out wizard the wizard, and everyone will be amazed.

It'll be a Monk I tell you ! :smallbiggrin:

[Archmage1]

Commoner.
With a level in...
bloodlines.

[Story]

You get a couple of bonus feats as well.
And you might be able to convince your DM to allow augmented casting and Expanded Spell knowledge as well(although I would suggest keeping the requests simple)

But augmented casting and expanded spell knowledge explicitly require two different classes.

[Archmage1]

Hence persuasive speaking.

[Yora]

I am drowning in a sea of cheese as far as the eye can see...
http://data.whicdn.com/images/12144753/176529-stewie_gun_mouth_super_thumb.jpg

But anyway. Once characters would have such crazy class combinations, what would they actually do to defeat their enemies?

[Private]

I'm thinking Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 7. Possibly Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 3/ x 4. I'll link you to a build idea I posted a while ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235211). It's probably better if you just continue in PS for continual advancement of your spellcasting and Animal Companion, but other PrCs, like Warshaper, might be fun to branch off into for a couple of levels.

As far as tactics, use your spells to buff and battlefield control, and shapechange into anything with 20 HD or less and enjoy.

[kardar233]

For simplicity's sake, I'll mention that at 12th level any Druid (or Druid class with full Wildshape, like Planar Shepherd) can get 12-Headed Cryohydra form with Frozen Wildshape. There's not much can stand up to that even now.

[Archmage1]

They are full casters.
So, the answer there is, of course, anything they want.
You could gish it up, although the wiz builds aren't exactly optimal for that, or you could use magic. It all depends on what you are fighting.

[Yora]

Question is what they would want to do?

[Archmage1]

Well, assuming you have a wizard, a druid, and a cleric, the druid and cleric would be the combatants, presumably buffed up with whatever buffs they felt like, while the wizard either controls the battlefield, or debuffs the enemies, or a bit of both.
Archivist is like wizard. Essentially, take the 4 roles: fighter, wizard, healer, thief, and divvy them up. Each should be able to handle 2 roles fairly easily.

[Private]

Question is what they would want to do?

As far as the build I posted goes, if you can't figure out some fun stuff to do with At-will 20 CL Shapechange at 12th level, you aren't trying hard enough. :)

Also, remember the "Bite of the Were____" Chain of spells. Some of the best buffs in 3.5

[Prophes0r]

The less powerful, but still good classic is always and option.
Druid 4 / Wizard 3 / Arcane Heirophant 5

Natural spell Feat let's you cast spells while wild shaped.
Practiced spell-caster feat boosts the caster level of one class so you don't lose power. You may want to take it twice though.

4th level wizard and 5th druid spells. Basically every utility spell in the game for those levels. Plus your animal companion can also be your familiar, gaining all the bonuses of both including intelligence and benefit from shared spells. Casting your arcane spells in armor is nice too, if you don't want to be wild shaped all the time.

Here is s good guide. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868490/The_Arcane_Hierophant_Examined

Oh, It's also hilarious if you are allowed to advance your companion familiar with class levels instead of HD, since it has a high enough Intelligence. Nothing like a Dire Ape / fighter in full plate barding and a large great sword to ruin the enemies day =)

[Yora]

Yeah, that's all nice, but how would you use all those abilities? Certainly not to cast fireball and call lightning all day long?

[Prophes0r]

I tend to play my AH (and most of my characters really...) as Batman. I always have the tools I need. And I always have more options if one approach fails.

Synergy means that your are much more than the sum of your parts. Fireballs and lightning get boring after a while. Be creative.

Also you have bore buffs than you can probably even use.

[Archmage1]

The only time you should be dealing damage directly with spells is when no one else can. Now, summoning stuff, or buffing yourself to the point that you can melee are viable.
You should be focusing on 2 of the following areas
Personal defense
Battlefield control
Buffing Allies
Debuffing enemies.

Most will do a bit of everything, but 2 tend to be the focus. For some reason, personal defense always seems to be in there.