Explosive Runes Questions

[Chilingsworth]

Hey Playground!

So, I just gained my 5th level in wizard, and chose explosive runes as one of my new spells. I have some questions to help me make the best use of it.

1. Under what exact conditions is the spell triggered?

I know it can be triggered by: failed attempts to dispel or erase it, attempts to copy it with amanuensis, and reading it. It's the last I'm slightly confused by: Obviously, if I put it in a book or on a poster, the next person to read it (unless they check the thing for traps, find it, and disarm or otherwise detect and neutralize it) will trigger it and go boom... But what if I cast it on pieces of paper and drop them at my enemies' feet (presumably while invisible so I don't automatically get ganked)? Are they automatically assumed to read it? If so, when? On their turn, or when I dropped it?

2. Which metamagic feats can be applied to the spell, if any? I ask because its original effect is a rune and it targets an object, rather than damage. That might make it ineligiable for metamagic that depend on either improving damage, or affecting creatures. On the other hand, when triggered it does cause damage and does affect creatures. Could I empower/maximize it? What about fell drain/fell animate it (for lots of fun placing fell animate explosive runes on wanted posters of the party... everywhere, making anyone that reads them to learn what we look like/because of interest in collecting our bounties blow up and turn into zombies, heh heh.) Could I do any of those things?

[Deophaun]

1. Under what exact conditions is the spell triggered?
This is going to be DM discretion. Some people think that "(close enough to read it)" defines what being "next to" the runes means. Others think "next to" the runes defines how close you have to be to read them.

And no, enemies are not presumed to automatically read anything. You will have to find some way of enticing them into doing so.

2. Which metamagic feats can be applied to the spell, if any?
Empower and Maximize would work. There's no spell that says "Effect: damage." If that was a requirement, then those metamagics would never ever work. Fell Animate works. Twin Spell works. Split Ray doesn't work because it's not a ray. Widen would not work because it's not an area.

[Chilingsworth]

This is going to be DM discretion. Some people think that "(close enough to read it)" defines what being "next to" the runes means. Others think "next to" the runes defines how close you have to be to read them.

And no, enemies are not presumed to automatically read anything. You will have to find some way of enticing them into doing so.

Empower and Maximize would work. There's no spell that says "Effect: damage." If that was a requirement, then those metamagics would never ever work. Fell Animate works. Twin Spell works. Split Ray doesn't work because it's not a ray. Widen would not work because it's not an area.


DM discretion? I thought so, same with having to entice my victims to read the things. Or, just triggering them remotely (via amanuensis or dispel magic wand :smallwink:)

Good to know about the feats, although the explosion it causes has an area (10-ft radius), couldn't widen apply to that?

I expect to have fun turning the government's own wanted posters into vehicles for minor zombie outbreaks. :smallamused:

[Deophaun]

Good to know about the feats, although the explosion it causes has an area (10-ft radius), couldn't widen apply to that?
Unfortunately not. The Widen spell is only going to apply to "a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell." As explosive runes doesn't have an area entry, it is none of those things. Basically, while the blast has an area, the spell itself doesn't.

[Chilingsworth]

Unfortunately not. The Widen spell is only going to apply to "a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell." As explosive runes doesn't have an area entry, it is none of those things. Basically, while the blast has an area, the spell itself doesn't.

Ok, so basically, the rationale I thought applied to damage-dependant spells (but didn't) does apply to widen.

WotC did some...interesting things when they wrote the rules, didn't they? :smallsigh:

[bobthe6th]

Well its more ER is a weird spell... really, most of the time it isn't an issue.

[Chilingsworth]

Well its more ER is a weird spell... really, most of the time it isn't an issue.

Yeah, I suppose. Oh well. Still a handy spell, though.:smallamused:

['Able' Xanthis]

1. Under what exact conditions is the spell triggered?

It may be activated by the following conditions, in no particular order; Reading, Scholar's Touch, the coping spell, looking at it with intent to read, any attempt to read the runes, and a few other conditions. The wording is really vague, as if you take RAW they go off as soon as you are within arms reach of someone other than yourself, or someone who has your permission to read it, whiles you're reading it. It's really a rather odd spell that has conditional readings in the spell itself.

2. Which metamagic feats can be applied to the spell, if any?

Maximize, Empower, I think Energy sub, Enhance, consecrate, purify, and Nonleathal sub are all one's I know work.

Sculpt spell to give it an area to manipulate is fun but odd. If you Energy Sub you might want to get Transdimensional Spell for dem ghosts and such.

That's all I got for right now off the top of my head. Hope it helps, Chilling.

[elonin]

Explosive Runes is a strange spell in that it is supposed to protect information by blowing up the script instead of allowing it to be read. In any case it wasn't supposed to be used offensively, which is the use a lot of people seem to be putting it to.

Is there a good way to disable one of these without setting it off?

[Story]

It's a trap so anyone with trapfinding can use Search to find it and Disable Device to disable it.

As for intended use - I'm pretty sure it's not intended to destroy the information. It's intended to act as a trap (it even has a trap search DC). The primary purpose of the spell is to damage people, it's just that the creators weren't creative enough in delivery methods.

['Able' Xanthis]

Explosive Runes is a strange spell in that it is supposed to protect information by blowing up the script instead of allowing it to be read. In any case it wasn't supposed to be used offensively, which is the use a lot of people seem to be putting it to.

Is there a good way to disable one of these without setting it off?

Yeah, it's to be a rouge. Other than that... Boom. It's an excellent offensive spell, though it wasn't written to be, and I once had a character who hung strips of leather and bells in the forest around my tower. When you hear the boom you know you've got visitors, and not the good kind cause they know the secret way in that's specifically made to hedge out anyone not on a list that I keep in a Secret Chest, seventh level spell using circles as a base for the research.

[Chilingsworth]

It's a trap so anyone with trapfinding can use Search to find it and Disable Device to disable it.

As for intended use - I'm pretty sure it's not intended to destroy the information. It's intended to act as a trap (it even has a trap search DC). The primary purpose of the spell is to damage people, it's just that the creators weren't creative enough in delivery methods.

Well, the spell does explicitly say it deals damage to the object it was cast on when it goes off. My guess is that it's supposed to at least be able to destroy the information it was protecting, as well as harming the would be thief.

['Able' Xanthis]

Hey, Chilling, a really powerful combo is to have profession (Bookbinder). You can ER each individual page of before binding all together. Then you can Contingent Spell; Scholar's Touch it when you are about to die, it is worse than a Balor's Death Throes.

Damage for when the book goes BOOM!

100 pages= 600 d6 Force
Average damage (All 3's)= 1800 force
Basically you carry a Nuke with you and when you hit -9 and don't make the save the book lights up an area of 10 ft turning the average dirt road into a ten foot deep crater.

This is all for later, but I thought you'd like to know...

Max+Empowered= 5400 Force Damage.

[Slipperychicken]

"Close enough to read" may be sanely interpreted to mean "within 5ft". I suppose the intended use is as a cheap "Gotcha!" trap to encourage extreme paranoia.

['Able' Xanthis]

"Close enough to read" may be sanely interpreted to mean "within 5ft". I suppose the intended use is as a cheap "Gotcha!" trap to encourage extreme paranoia.

I usually go with you have to make eye contact with the runes, while within the same square, so yeah. I once had a scroll on a goblin as a joke gotcha thing. One of the players basically gathered the group around the thing and opened it. Nearly wiped them, only level three and two were casters. It wasn't the first time I face palmed with that group, but it stands out, guy was their rouge.

[Chilingsworth]

Hey, Chilling, a really powerful combo is to have profession (Bookbinder). You can ER each individual page of before binding all together. Then you can Contingent Spell; Scholar's Touch it when you are about to die, it is worse than a Balor's Death Throes.

Damage for when the book goes BOOM!

100 pages= 600 d6 Force
Average damage (All 3's)= 1800 force
Basically you carry a Nuke with you and when you hit -9 and don't make the save the book lights up an area of 10 ft turning the average dirt road into a ten foot deep crater.

This is all for later, but I thought you'd like to know...

Max+Empowered= 5400 Force Damage.

Yeah, I've heard of the book 'o runes. (Although, when I heard about it it was: make a book-nuke, then drop it near your target, move more than 10ft away, and cast amanuensis.) In any case, I can't use that because:

a. I don't have the feat space for contingent spell, and

b. I'm pretty sure it would work thusly: you attempt to magically read the book. The first rune triggers, destroying the book before any of the other runes are activated.

Oh, and c. I'm not interested in both having all involved spells banned and my head caved in with... well, every book my DM has on hand, actually.

[Story]

I usually go with you have to make eye contact with the runes, while within the same square, so yeah. I once had a scroll on a goblin as a joke gotcha thing. One of the players basically gathered the group around the thing and opened it. Nearly wiped them, only level three and two were casters. It wasn't the first time I face palmed with that group, but it stands out, guy was their rouge.

My idea is for a questgiver to cast Maximized Explosive Runes on their job offers. It's the Adventurer's Job Interview.

['Able' Xanthis]

Yeah, I've heard of the book 'o runes. (Although, when I heard about it it was: make a book-nuke, then drop it near your target, move more than 10ft away, and cast amanuensis.) In any case, I can't use that because:

a. I don't have the feat space for contingent spell

I was just telling you in case you didn't know, it's a great mind teeter for the paranoid caster.

b. I'm pretty sure it would work thusly: you attempt to magically read the book. The first rune triggers, destroying the book before any of the other runes are activated.

Not with Scholar's Touch, It reads the ENTIRE book all at once

Oh, and c. I'm not interested in both having all involved spells banned and my head caved in with... well, every book my DM has on hand, actually.

It's a suicide technique I made up, read the way it's goes off again Chilling, it would be legit.

Bold for the space.

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm, maybe. Even if it is legit, though, that would just make the chances of the involved spells being banned by my DM from "likely" to "all but certain." And I'd still end up in the ER from all the blunt trauma.

Cool idea, though.

Also, could that idea be made to create hand grenades?

Scholar's touch with a trigger something like: "read the book next time it comes in contact with anyone but me" Then chuck it at someone?

[TopCheese]

I always like the pre battle set up of...

Cleric (me) + Wizard casting explosive runes on a ton of paper.

Glueing said paper onto my full plate (force immunity)

Walking up to the BBEG/Other poor soul (or greater teleporting)

Wizard readies an action to set off the ER when I do.

???

Pick up the quest reward.

Note: This is allowed to work once before the enemies become immune to force damage...

[Deophaun]

Hey, Chilling, a really powerful combo is to have profession (Bookbinder). You can ER each individual page of before binding all together.
Or you could just ER a single page 100 times. Nothing stops you from putting multiple runes on a single object.

[bobthe6th]

but there is a gray area for setting off one rune triggering any others.

area dispel only hits one spell on each target. So you want one rune for each page or individual item and shoot a low CL area dispel magic at it.

like a wand of CL1 dispel magic?

[Guizonde]

aaaaand i've bookmarked the thread!

here's an idea. y'all know the strict and surly librarian archetype? factor in a life of bitterness, a wish for revenge, and a CE alignement :smallbiggrin:

your books will be returned on time, or you'll be blasted out of time itself!

[Phelix-Mu]

I wonder if a DM should approach offensive text as a kind of gaze attack. Surely anyone that survives this kind of trap once is likely to not go around reading random stuff. If I squint or put on glasses with the wrong prescription, so I can't read but can otherwise operate normally, am I protected from the spell?

Poor wording in spells just compounds the issue of spells being the most exploitable abilities in the game.

[Chilingsworth]

aaaaand i've bookmarked the thread!

here's an idea. y'all know the strict and surly librarian archetype? factor in a life of bitterness, a wish for revenge, and a CE alignement :smallbiggrin:

your books will be returned on time, or you'll be blasted out of time itself!:smallbiggrin:

But... my character is of NE (heading for LE) alignment. :smalltongue:

And, he's more likely to found libraries (and universities, and museums, and research labs) than work in a library.

Yeah, he's Evil mostly because of his absolute hatred of the church of Tyr, and because he's willing to fuel propserity and military might by means of devotion to an evil power and power it via undead.

[Deophaun]

area dispel only hits one spell on each target. So you want one rune for each page or individual item and shoot a low CL area dispel magic at it.

like a wand of CL1 dispel magic?
First, you can't lower the CL beyond the minimum to cast it. So it's at least a CL5. Second, why are you using a third level spell when a cantrip suffices (amanuensis)?

['Able' Xanthis]

but there is a gray area for setting off one rune triggering any others.

area dispel only hits one spell on each target. So you want one rune for each page or individual item and shoot a low CL area dispel magic at it.

like a wand of CL1 dispel magic?

Level 3 spell so it'd have to be a CL 3 at the least, and Scholar's Touch is the only spell that I know will activate them all at the same moment. Chilling the BookNade might work. Also for if you want the Cheese just start leaving the ER's on 1 ft blocks of Air, less than 10 pounds using a little known combo Prestidigitation and ER.

By Prestidigitation you color 1 ft area of air, let's say red okay. Then you target the 'red air' with ER and as a 1 ft squared molecule thick section of air isn't over the 10 pound mark, and since it is specifically only the 'Red Air' you aren't targeting a mass of atmosphere you now have ER that hang in the air, dismiss the coloring and you've got mook deterrent right there.

Air is in fact an object, I'd like to point out as it is not a Person nor Place it must then be a Thing and thus an Object as it has no Int or quantifiable stats. This is however pure Cheese.

[TuggyNE]

I wonder if a DM should approach offensive text as a kind of gaze attack. Surely anyone that survives this kind of trap once is likely to not go around reading random stuff. If I squint or put on glasses with the wrong prescription, so I can't read but can otherwise operate normally, am I protected from the spell?

That would be vastly better. When triggered, the runes make a single 15' gaze attack for listed force damage. (Or similar.)

[Story]

For what it's worth, Amenuensis looks like a valid target for Chain Spell. Just stick a single rune in on each piece of parchment (which is perfectly legal and in fact the intended use). Then detonate up to 20/23 of them with a single spell instantly.

[Chilingsworth]

Level 3 spell so it'd have to be a CL 3 at the least, and Scholar's Touch is the only spell that I know will activate them all at the same moment. Chilling the BookNade might work. Also for if you want the Cheese just start leaving the ER's on 1 ft blocks of Air, less than 10 pounds using a little known combo Prestidigitation and ER.

By Prestidigitation you color 1 ft area of air, let's say red okay. Then you target the 'red air' with ER and as a 1 ft squared molecule thick section of air isn't over the 10 pound mark, and since it is specifically only the 'Red Air' you aren't targeting a mass of atmosphere you now have ER that hang in the air, dismiss the coloring and you've got mook deterrent right there.

Air is in fact an object, I'd like to point out as it is not a Person nor Place it must then be a Thing and thus an Object as it has no Int or quantifiable stats. This is however pure Cheese.

Ha! That is cheesey. Clever, though I couldn't bring myself to use it.

As for the dispel magic, I think what bob was refering to was having explosive runes on multiple pieces of unbound paper. Each piece would then be a distinct object and would be subject to having a dispel attempt made against its single rune. This would be a way to get around the "amanuensis reads one rune at a time, triggers the first one, and destroys the rest of them without setting them off" problem without invoking "I need to be in touch range in order to do this since I can't craft a contingent spell" problem that scholar's thouch creates. And yeah, as was just said: a wand of dispel magic would be minimum caster level 5, not 1 or 3. Could still work, though.

[Phelix-Mu]

That would be vastly better. When triggered, the runes make a single 15' gaze attack for listed force damage. (Or similar.)

Would your version still destroy/damage the material written on? That seems to be an important part of the spell as written (not so much important when it gets warped into a nuke).

[bobthe6th]

Level 3 spell so it'd have to be a CL 3 at the least, and Scholar's Touch is the only spell that I know will activate them all at the same moment. Chilling the BookNade might work. Also for if you want the Cheese just start leaving the ER's on 1 ft blocks of Air, less than 10 pounds using a little known combo Prestidigitation and ER.


Dispel magic is the only(non suicidal) way to blow through a wad of ER. and it would be a min CL 5... though there was a way somewhere to work it.

oh yeah, no it is on a gliph of warding lesser(gotten from a geometer dip) while you are holding CL-1 opposed alinement arrows. You fill the gliph with a dispel magic(at your current CL of 1), and when the seal is broken it fires off.

It costs you a charge of a level 3 spell wand, but it is so worth it. Have it on a closed letter, and use an unseen servant as the delivery system.

[Chilingsworth]

For what it's worth, Amenuensis looks like a valid target for Chain Spell. Just stick a single rune in on each piece of parchment (which is perfectly legal and in fact the intended use). Then detonate up to 20/23 of them with a single spell instantly.

Hmm, that could work, although in my specific case, we get cantrips at will, so making up a bunch of single rune bombs and using amanuensis normally would still be useful.

Actually, if I use this tactic at all, I intend to use it as a filter of sorts: If my victims manage to sucessfully counter it, then I know they pose a sufficent threat for me to consider using my actual spells.

In other words, if they don't counter it: they're screwed. If they do? I stop toying with them. They're probably even more screwed.:xykon:

[Guizonde]

:smallbiggrin:

But... my character is of NE (heading for LE) alignment. :smalltongue:

And, he's more likely to found libraries (and universities, and museums, and research labs) than work in a library.

Yeah, he's Evil mostly because of his absolute hatred of the church of Tyr, and because he's willing to fuel propserity and military might by means of devotion to an evil power and power it via undead.

i was thinking about an NPC or even a very atypical BBEG at first, but if you can roleplay a surly loyal evil librarian, it would be even better!

also, something about seeing written "offensive text" made me think:

PC:"i reveal the newsletter of [insert hate-group]"
DM:"aaaand the monster takes d8 dmg"

it could also be interpreted as swatting someone with a newspaper :smallbiggrin:

['Able' Xanthis]

Hmm, that could work, although in my specific case, we get cantrips at will, so making up a bunch of single rune bombs and using amanuensis normally would still be useful.

Actually, if I use this tactic at all, I intend to use it as a filter of sorts: If my victims manage to sucessfully counter it, then I know they pose a sufficent threat for me to consider using my actual spells.

In other words, if they don't counter it: they're screwed. If they do? I stop toying with them. They're probably even more screwed.:xykon:

This is what a properly motivated caster is like, people. Concussive explosions able to rip the front end of a hummer in twain and Chilling is using them to filter out those who don't make the cut. Those unworthy of his true magistic might. I have to say this, chilling.

Happy Hunting. :smallbiggrin:

[Chilingsworth]

This is what a properly motivated caster is like, people. Concussive explosions able to rip the front end of a hummer in twain and Chilling is using them to filter out those who don't make the cut. Those unworthy of his true magistic might. I have to say this, chilling.

Happy Hunting. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, I expect I'll be asked about that bout of manicical laughter tomorrow morning. Mind if I sig this?

[TuggyNE]

Would your version still destroy/damage the material written on? That seems to be an important part of the spell as written (not so much important when it gets warped into a nuke).

Yeah, it might need special wording to be sure of it, but that would definitely still be a thing.

['Able' Xanthis]

Ok, I expect I'll be asked about that bout of manicical laughter tomorrow morning. Mind if I sig this?

Go ahead, Chilling. :xykon:

[Chilingsworth]

Go ahead, Chilling. :xykon:

Thanks. Sadly, had to crop it, though (and remove a significant part of my old sig) to fit it. Still worth it. :smallbiggrin:

['Able' Xanthis]

Thanks. Sadly, had to crop it, though (and remove a significant part of my old sig) to fit it. Still worth it. :smallbiggrin:

Wow, you even removed part of your old sig... wow, just wow.

[Chilingsworth]

Wow, you even removed part of your old sig... wow, just wow.

Well, to be fair, your comment did as good of a job (if not better) of showing my personality as the personality tests it replaced did, anyway.

Besides, thats only the second time something in this forum has made me laugh hard enough to cramp up.

['Able' Xanthis]

Well, to be fair, your comment did as good of a job (if not better) of showing my personality as the personality tests it replaced did, anyway.

I gotta say that was one of my better complements, it just came to me whole you know.

[Chilingsworth]

I gotta say that was one of my better complements, it just came to me whole you know.

Again, thanks. I suspect I'll get at least a chuckle a day from that for quite awhile. :smallsmile:

Anyway, kinda back on topic (but expanding it):

What sort of other (non cheesy) uses can we come up with for explosive runes (either in regular or metamagic flavors)?

Ones mentioned so far:

Let's call the basic (pobably intended) use "Intellectual Property Protection."

So, that, plus:

-- As a filter to determine when foes need serrious attention,
-- As a deterient to reading wanted posters (and a way to make a government look either incompetent or out to get its people by having its public notices blow up when read.)
-- As an alarm system/first defensive line.
-- As small(ish) remote bombs (see 'filter' above.)

I've got another two:

Assassination Weapon: Added to a letter that is then sealed and mailed to a target. once this is used a few times, the security on the mail system will either increase enough that it will be no longer practical, or said system may break down. (That leads to the second application, below) In any case, it would be at this point that one switches to using ignorant street urchins as delivery personel. (i.e. give the kid a silver or gold to give a letter to the soon to be Mr. Body. with instructions not to open it.)

Chaos, Mayhem, Economic Impairment: If we flood the cities and the mail with these things (the cities in the form of fake/"enhanced" wanted posters/other government bullitins, the mail in the form of letters) People will lose faith in the mail system and/or be unwilling to check up on the latest information their government is trying to get out to them.

Most of the applications directed against civilians become even more effective when paired with fell animate (or, if your Dm goes by the rule that death by negative level results in a wight, fell drain) to cause minor zombie/wight outbreaks. Unlikely to work against more substantive targets, though fell drain would still have some effect. Actually, even (maybe especially) against civilians, fell drain would be unlikely to create any wights: the normal damage alone would probably be the agent of death.

[Crasical]

Explosive Rune'd paper airplanes and the Launch cantrip are a must for the sociopathic prankster in any party.

[Deophaun]

HThis would be a way to get around the "amanuensis reads one rune at a time, triggers the first one, and destroys the rest of them without setting them off" problem
That, though, is DM fiat, not RAW (RAW says that the traps are triggered, not that they are triggered when copied), which means it can be applied just as easily to an area dispel (the first explosive rune goes off and destroys all the rest before they can be dispelled).

[Chilingsworth]

That, though, is DM fiat, not RAW (RAW says that the traps are triggered, not that they are triggered when copied), which means it can be applied just as easily to an area dispel (the first explosive rune goes off and destroys all the rest before they can be dispelled).

Not if each of the runes is on a seperate object, each of which would be subject to a simultaneous dispel attempt. (Yes, if you put all the runes in the same object (a book) an area dispel could be similiarly ineffective.)

Also, I was simply suggesting a reason someone would want to use an area dispel magic rather than amanuensis.

And if it's DM fiat, it's at least reasonable dm fiat. I'd rather live within that rule than provoke a complete banning of the concept.

Incidentally, the issue hasn't come up, yet. The ruling is my best guess at what my dm's final ruling will be. (and probably the best case senario.)

[Story]

The mail thing wont work against stronger targets since they'll probably just detect magic everything anyway.

[Chilingsworth]

The mail thing wont work against stronger targets since they'll probably just detect magic everything anyway.

True, though my dm doesn't let detect magic detect magical traps (I don't think he'd be so against this idea that he'd change the houserule. I think he'd actually be appreciative of clever terrorist tactics in this campaign (and I wouldn't use it in any disimiliar campaign.)) If he did change the houserule, though, at least that would allow us PC's to use the spell for the same purpose. Even if he changed the houserule to allow NPC's to break it for this purpose, the mere fact that they now consider it nessicary to scan all the mail is a victory, and at the cost of a few sp (for paper and postage) and some spells I cast on my day off, an inexpensive one.

Remember: I'm not a mere munchkin- I'm roleplaying a highly intelligent terrorist revolutionary. Even if I fail to make things go boom, forcing the foe to make permenant (likely harmful) changes to stop me from doing so is worth the cost of the attempt.

[Deophaun]

Not if each of the runes is on a seperate object, each of which would be subject to a simultaneous dispel attempt.
You are going to have to point out where the word "simultaneous" appears in the dispel magic entry.

[Chilingsworth]

You are going to have to point out where the word "simultaneous" appears in the dispel magic entry.

Maybe, but the possibility of such blocking is also a primary reason why I intend only to use one rune at a time. (The others being that I don't want to completely ruin the game, and limiting myself is a better option than almost guaranteeing a visit from the banhammer.) Regardless the question of wheather I can or cannot use them en masse to create titanic is explosions moot. :smalltongue:

[Karoht]

Trickery Devotion-3.5 Feat

So I get someone else to make a boatload of Exploding Runes for me.
I use Trickery Devotion. It's basically Project Image but with longer duration and a few more uses.
"Once you reach 10th level, you can spend a swift action to transfer your perceptions to the simulacrum and perceive the world from its point of view rather than your own. You can move the image as if it were your own body, using the simulacrum's movement characteristics (ignoring terrain, “flying, “ and the like). You can also perform any skill and ability checks using the simulacrum, as long as they do not require a Strength score higher than 2. The image has phantom versions of all your equipment (such as lockpicks), but any such items that lose direct contact with it immediately dissipate."
The Devotion takes out it's phantom copy of ER parchments. It runs into a pack of badguys. I transfer my consciousness to it. And begin reading.
BOOM.

I turn off Trickery Devotion.
I turn it on again next round. Run it into a pack of baddies. And begin reading.

Somehow I doubt this works (and I'm not the kind of player to use it even if it did), but it does create an interesting detonation method.
If one party member makes a sack full of ER's, and in battle throws or Levitates or Telekinetically throws the sack to a spot, I can create the Trickery Devotion (or just use Project Image, but that will require line of sight/effect) and go read the runes. At worst, I destroy my illusion in the process. Ohz Noez!

[Fouredged Sword]

You just need an item that cast erase (CL 1) when thrown and to make it out if rivientine (so it is immune to damage). Make it also a weapon and enchant it with the returning property and stuff it with more runes before you throw it again.

[elonin]

Wouldn't you have to be an illiterate rouge to find the runes without setting them off? Reading is a fairly automatic process. Also how are those with trap finding supposed to disarm glyphs since you'd have to enter its area of effect, thus setting it off.

[Chilingsworth]

Wouldn't you have to be an illiterate rouge to find the runes without setting them off? Reading is a fairly automatic process. Also how are those with trap finding supposed to disarm glyphs since you'd have to enter its area of effect, thus setting it off.

Uh... by the power of RAW stupidity? :smallconfused:

(The relevant spells say rogues can detect and disarm them, so I guess they can, somehow.)

[ScionoftheVoid]

Note that Explosive Runes deals damage to the object it's written on and to any creatures in the area. Blowing up other Runes before they can go off is only a risk if they're on the same item, and then most methods of setting them off (except actually reading) can be assumed to do them all at once (or at least close enough that there's not time to destroy the next set of Runes before it goes off itself).

EDIT: Just re-read it, it's a bit more ambiguous than I remember it, but it still only mentions damaging creatures and the object it's written upon. If it does damage other objects then you can use them to blast through walls, doors and anything else that dares impede you.

[Story]

Wouldn't you have to be an illiterate rouge to find the runes without setting them off? Reading is a fairly automatic process. Also how are those with trap finding supposed to disarm glyphs since you'd have to enter its area of effect, thus setting it off.

Perhaps they have a subconscious magical sense? Doing things that shouldn't be possible is fairly commonplace in D&D, and it's silly to quibble with one of the weaker abilities.

['Able' Xanthis]

I could see the training for it right now...

"No, young fool you look past the words not at them. What if that was a set of four hundred Explosive Runes, a viable tactic for any Wizard paranoid enough to have foes willing to hire a rouge." Raven Wintersimth, Master Rouge of the Thieves Guild

[Garan]

By the way, as a DM I rule that any of these types of "trap" spells only last for a certain period of time/CL. Any permanent things would have to use the Permanency spell. It kind of lowers the complete ridiculousness that this thread has been suggesting.

[Chilingsworth]

I could see the training for it right now...

"No, young fool you look past the words not at them. What if that was a set of four hundred Explosive Runes, a viable tactic for any Wizard paranoid enough to have foes willing to hire a rouge." Raven Wintersimth, Master Rouge of the Thieves Guild

More comedic gold, bud! :smallbiggrin:

(no room in my sig, though. :smallsigh:)


By the way, as a DM I rule that any of these types of "trap" spells only last for a certain period of time/CL. Any permanent things would have to use the Permanency spell. It kind of lowers the complete ridiculousness that this thread has been suggesting.

Fair enough, but isn't making things like explosive runes cost XP going too far in the other direction?

Especially with my dm, who does xp in a way that lost xp can never be caught up. Also, he's already given wizards (and to a lesser extent, other T1 casters) some significant nerfs: No gate (or other calling spells), no shapechange (or polymorph or polymorph any object) xp rules that make using spells with xp components worth it only as absolute last resorts, if even that (and makes crafting something of an iffy proposition for anyone without a craft reserve)

I agree that letting more than one rune go off at once is insane, though.

['Able' Xanthis]

Yeah, Gate and other calling spells are illegal in my games because several eons ago a wizard fudged himself and several countries by calling a Genie who was free from obligations like that. The Genie then took over an entire hemisphere of that planet before another mage managed to lock the gates for a hundred years and give the people enough time to cast an Epic Spell that disallows a laundry list of spells and powers which include limiting the Wish spell (Not really but it was a good reason a spell like Wish would have Limits in the first place)

[Chilingsworth]

Yeah, Gate and other calling spells are illegal in my games because several eons ago a wizard fudged himself and several countries by calling a Genie who was free from obligations like that. The Genie then took over an entire hemisphere of that planet before another mage managed to lock the gates for a hundred years and give the people enough time to cast an Epic Spell that disallows a laundry list of spells and powers which include limiting the Wish spell (Not really but it was a good reason a spell like Wish would have Limits in the first place)

Do you dm, Able?

['Able' Xanthis]

Yeah for two different groups of people twice a week, locally.

Why'd you ask, Chilling?

[Garan]

Fair enough, but isn't making things like explosive runes cost XP going too far in the other direction?



Normal castings of it don't take XP. Those do not last forever, though. If you want them to last forever, it takes XP to do so. That way you have to have a vested interest in keeping something permanently trapped.

[willpell]

It's a trap so anyone with trapfinding can use Search to find it and Disable Device to disable it.

Wait, how can you Search for writing without looking at it? It's not in Braille....

[Chilingsworth]

Yeah for two different groups of people twice a week, locally.

Why'd you ask, Chilling?

Just curious. Also, if you didn't already have two groups, I was wondering if you've ever considered gaming online (wheather PbP or other methods.) The group I'm in is showing signs of dying. (One member just welcomed his second kid, another member had some sort of falling out with that member and has left the group, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a third gets engaged in the next year or so... ) Even if it doesn't die, I have a hella lot of free time and would be interested in finding a second group.

['Able' Xanthis]

Just curious. Also, if you didn't already have two groups, I was wondering if you've ever considered gaming online (wheather PbP or other methods.) The group I'm in is showing signs of dying. (One member just welcomed his second kid, another member had some sort of falling out with that member and has left the group, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a third gets engaged in the next year or so... ) Even if it doesn't die, I have a hella lot of free time and would be interested in finding a second group.

Perhaps, my current occupation doesn't take a lot out of me, though I've been known to be either too kind or too cruel to my players, a word of warning as I cant' seem to find a middle ground in my tactics. It's either a fun game where the higher levels are comical or a game where everything is Grim and Dark and I seem to switch erratically it is very strange and throws most first timers off, but my current groups love the setting I have created and as such they really get into the strange world that is my personal baby.

I could do a few one shot's for you, Chilling. You seem to be a cool kind of guy, pun intended.

[Chilingsworth]

Perhaps, my current occupation doesn't take a lot out of me, though I've been known to be either too kind or too cruel to my players, a word of warning as I cant' seem to find a middle ground in my tactics. It's either a fun game where the higher levels are comical or a game where everything is Grim and Dark and I seem to switch erratically it is very strange and throws most first timers off, but my current groups love the setting I have created and as such they really get into the strange world that is my personal baby.

I could do a few one shot's for you, Chilling. You seem to be a cool kind of guy, pun intended.

Heh, I seem to have a hard time between being totally incompetent/bumbling and being a so-called "power gamer." I can take grim settings. I can take light hearted settings. I'd definately like to try some one shots. You seem cool, too*

So, do you have basic setting info/houserules posted somewhere for me to look through? I'm afraid I'm abit tired to absorb much right now, so I'd have to examine them later.

*I was going to say something about you seeming able, but I couldn't stand the groan it elicited even from myself.

[Garan]

Wait, how can you Search for writing without looking at it? It's not in Braille....

It could be inscribed on stone, so you could feel it.

['Able' Xanthis]

Heh, I seem to have a hard time between being totally incompetent/bumbling and being a so-called "power gamer." I can take grim settings. I can take light hearted settings. I'd definately like to try some one shots. You seem cool, too*

So, do you have basic setting info/houserules posted somewhere for me to look through? I'm afraid I'm abit tired to absorb much right now, so I'd have to examine them later.

*I was going to say something about you seeming able, but I couldn't stand the groan it elicited even from myself.

Hmm, Okay.

I laughed so hard at the able pun.

[Garan]

Dungeons and Dragons? In this company, more like Pun-geons and Flagons.

['Able' Xanthis]

Right, One last thing Chilling, do You want to have a few friends along for the ride or would you like to run your first game solo?

[Chilingsworth]

Ok, just thought of this:

What happens if someone tries to "erase" an explosive rune via mundane means? (like trying to wash it off, for example.) Would that trigger it?

Also, what if you cast explosive runes on arrowheads, when those arrows got plunged into someone (thus getting blood on the rune, potentially an attempt to remove or obscure it) could that trigger the rune?

If (as I suspect) not, what happens if you put the runes on the fletchings of the arrows, then after you pincushion someone with these, cast a dispel magic on them? Would it set off the runes to finish them off? Would the effectiveness of this tactic differ between using a targeted and an area dispel magic?

[Slipperychicken]

Wait, how can you Search for writing without looking at it? It's not in Braille....

Using your Spider Sense Trap Sense, of course :smalltongue:

More seriously, it's DC 28, so it already requires superhuman skill to even notice without detonating. Some special technique allows you to avert your eyes in time to avoid reading it, perhaps. Seeing one edge of the text, identifying it as Explosive Runes, then "dodging" your eyes out of the way?

[Chilingsworth]

Ok a couple more questions:

How much latitude do you have as far as what a specific casting of explosive runes looks like? Could you, for instance, make it neon green and obvious to cause people to notice it (and thus trigger it) for use with the above explosive arrows, then make a different casting look inconspicuous for trapping wanted posters or the like?

Second question:

Other than the object on which it's cast, can explosive runes damage objects? If so, how does its damage interact with objects? (halved + hardness, normal + hardness, etc.)

[Slipperychicken]

Other than the object on which it's cast, can explosive runes damage objects? If so, how does its damage interact with objects? (halved + hardness, normal + hardness, etc.)

RAW? it only damages creatures, and the object touched. If you're using the Objects Damaged on A Failed Saving Throw table (of course you aren't), those objects may be damaged too.

RAI? It damages everything in a 10ft radius. Additionally (back to RAW), unattended objects are considered to have failed their saving throws and take the full 6d6. Force damage is affected by hardness as normal, AFAIK only Acid and Sonic are exempted from hardness.

If you can read text written on an arrow while it's flying past you, you deserve a medal.

And the appearance of the runes is entirely a DM call. I see it could working out several ways: Either every casting of Explosive Runes looks the same and is a bunch of funny-shaped arcane symbols, or you can make it say whatever you want (like "I prepared explosive runes", "BAM! said the lady", "Dodge this") in whatever font and color you want. Rule of Cool inclines me toward the latter, but sense inclines me toward the former because it the Explosive Runes aren't fluffed as customizeable words but specific and identifiable runes.

[Chilingsworth]

If you can read text written on an arrow while it's flying past you, you deserve a medal.

Not what I meant.

What I meant was: Arrow has explosive runes on it (likely on its fletching), arrow is shot into someone. That someone notices the arrow in them (i.e. after it has stopped moving) and triggers the rune... "Ow!, huh?" *BOOM*

Oh, and before I forget: the shooter is either me, or someone I showed how to avoid triggering the runes.

Of course, if that wont work, a targeted dispel magic should. :smallamused:

Or is that an area dispel that would? I forget, which can affect spells cast on held items?

[tyckspoon]

Not what I meant.

What I meant was: Arrow has explosive runes on it (likely on its fletching), arrow is shot into someone. That someone notices the arrow in them (i.e. after it has stopped moving) and triggers the rune... "Ow!, huh?" *BOOM*

Oh, and before I forget: the shooter is either me, or someone I showed how to avoid triggering the runes.

Of course, if that wont work, a targeted dispel magic should. :smallamused:

Or is that an area dispel that would? I forget, which can affect spells cast on held items?

Ammunition is destroyed when it hits a target. This either destroys the runes (with no effect other than wasting a casting of Explosive Runes) when it happens, or if you can roll a good enough Diplomacy on your DM it might count as 'erasing' the runes and set them off. I wouldn't count on it, tho.

To answer the other question- you usually want/need a Targeted Dispel to affect an attended/owned item. An Area Dispel will hit every object in its area that is the subject of spells, but does not affect magic items. (This is.. somewhat unclear. I think it's supposed to just mean it does not suppress magic items lilke a Targeted Dispel can, but strictly speaking it would appear to say that, for example, a magic sword that is buffed with Greater Magic Weapon can't have the GMW effect Area Dispelled just because the sword it's on is magic.) For Runes applications, you usually want Area.

Useful spell for Runes shenanigans: Dispel Ward. It's a level 1 Dispel in the Spell Compendium that only affects "abjuration magic placed on an object or area"... and Explosive Runes is one of its explicit list of example spells it works on. Useful for rigging your dispel checks (can cast at Caster Level 1 without jumping through any hoops or arguing with your DM about weird and unclear rules) if you can't spare a feat for Arcane Mastery (Complete Arcane, lets you Take 10 on caster-level checks. Dispel is weighted in favor of the defender, so all other things being equal Taking 10 on the dispel check means you will always fail by 1 point.)

[Chilingsworth]

Ammunition is destroyed when it hits a target. This either destroys the runes (with no effect other than wasting a casting of Explosive Runes) when it happens, or if you can roll a good enough Diplomacy on your DM it might count as 'erasing' the runes and set them off. I wouldn't count on it, tho.

To answer the other question- you usually want/need a Targeted Dispel to affect an attended/owned item. An Area Dispel will hit every object in its area that is the subject of spells, but does not affect magic items. (This is.. somewhat unclear. I think it's supposed to just mean it does not suppress magic items lilke a Targeted Dispel can, but strictly speaking it would appear to say that, for example, a magic sword that is buffed with Greater Magic Weapon can't have the GMW effect Area Dispelled just because the sword it's on is magic.) For Runes applications, you usually want Area.

Useful spell for Runes shenanigans: Dispel Ward. It's a level 1 Dispel in the Spell Compendium that only affects "abjuration magic placed on an object or area"... and Explosive Runes is one of its explicit list of example spells it works on. Useful for rigging your dispel checks (can cast at Caster Level 1 without jumping through any hoops or arguing with your DM about weird and unclear rules) if you can't spare a feat for Arcane Mastery (Complete Arcane, lets you Take 10 on caster-level checks. Dispel is weighted in favor of the defender, so all other things being equal Taking 10 on the dispel check means you will always fail by 1 point.)

I had forgotten about the ammunition being destroyed (though, also, I'd have thought that just meant it couldn't be used again, not that it ceased to exist as an object. :smallconfused:)

In any case, thanks for pointing out Dispel Ward! I was wondering what that spell was good for. Now to see if I can convince the party cleric to take craft wand. Or, if not just make scrolls of it. (sadly, I can't spare the feat for arcane mastery.)

[Chilingsworth]

Well, I got to try Mk I of this trick last game session!

Looks like my DM is okay with it. The fact that I challenged an 8th level barbarian (with my wizard 5/beguiler 1) without properly prepring myself- thus getting my ass kicked- probably helped make the tactic seem less powerful than its potential.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Explosive Runes is a strange spell in that it is supposed to protect information by blowing up the script instead of allowing it to be read. In any case it wasn't supposed to be used offensively, which is the use a lot of people seem to be putting it to.

I. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0092.html) Wonder. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0317.html) Why. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)

[Olo Demonsbane]

After I read this thread, I came up with a tactic for my wizard which seems like something you could get use in your campaign, assuming you're going by the RAW that runes damage everything in a 10ft radius.

My wizard founding a building company. He had a Lyre of building, some warforged bards, and a good number of random, unskilled workers. He basically charged the amount of the materials, and soon was mass producing houses.

He then took a huge number of copper pieces and began casting Chained Reach Explosive runes on them. Finally, he'd give them to one of his trusted workers, who would slip them into the drying mud bricks, of which the houses were build, every so often. He got it down to each house receiving about 40 of them (one casting's worth).

If any one of the runes were triggered, the house would be blown to smithereens. A similar tactic (probably without the involved housing project, and more with slipping them into the coinage or just casting them every 10 feet inside a house) could be quite effective for a terrorist wizard :smallbiggrin:

[Chilingsworth]

After I read this thread, I came up with a tactic for my wizard which seems like something you could get use in your campaign, assuming you're going by the RAW that runes damage everything in a 10ft radius.

My wizard founding a building company. He had a Lyre of building, some warforged bards, and a good number of random, unskilled workers. He basically charged the amount of the materials, and soon was mass producing houses.

He then took a huge number of copper pieces and began casting Chained Reach Explosive runes on them. Finally, he'd give them to one of his trusted workers, who would slip them into the drying mud bricks, of which the houses were build, every so often. He got it down to each house receiving about 40 of them (one casting's worth).

If any one of the runes were triggered, the house would be blown to smithereens. A similar tactic (probably without the involved housing project, and more with slipping them into the coinage or just casting them every 10 feet inside a house) could be quite effective for a terrorist wizard :smallbiggrin:

That would be very effective, if only I had the space in my build for the required feats. Sweet idea, though! :smallbiggrin: